Should surgery for permanent incontinence be allowed on those who claim to suffer from living in a continent body?

[Clr224]

I voted yes, but with qualifications.  The first being that I wouldn’t require medical doctors who have ethical issues about doing such procedures to do them.  I think there should be specialty clinics to perform the body modifications people desire.  The second qualification I have is that the entire cost should be borne by the individual including the costs associated with the consequences (e.g. diapers, hormone replacement, specialized medical equipment, etc.).  Insurance companies should not be required to cover such procedures or their consequences.  Finally, I’d allow an individual to have the procedure they want immediately, if they so desired.  I’d make sure they understood the consequences and encourage a trial period, if practical.  However, if they wanted it immediately and signed a release stating that they’d been informed of the ramifications the body modifications would have, so be it.  

[fixitboy]

Humm    mabey  after you spend a couple years liveing the lifestyle first

[BrownBobby]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:26 PM, Elfy said:

This sub-forum is for people who desire to be incontinent. If you don't desire to be incontinent or do not like people who do desire to be incontinent there is simply no reason to come in here unless you're trolling or looking to cause trouble.

It's no different from any other sub-forum be it the religion one, the LGBT one, the sissy one, the pooping one... It is for people who want to indulge in those activities, if you disagree with them you simply shouldn't be going in the sub-forum in the first place.

Thank you for the statement of support - I appreciate it, and it's good to know that there are admins who agree with keeping this place as a forum for these topics.  However, I would also like your guidance in what to do when someone isn't following this guidance and insists on posting in this sub-forum against the rules.   For a random member who acts either repeatedly or especially maliciously, should we report those comments and let the admins address it?  And, as a question I never thought I'd have to ask but need to in light of recent events...if that person is a moderator or admin themselves, what is the proper way of bringing that issue to attention?

[Elfy]

27 minutes ago, BrownBobby said:

Thank you for the statement of support - I appreciate it, and it's good to know that there are admins who agree with keeping this place as a forum for these topics.  However, I would also like your guidance in what to do when someone isn't following this guidance and insists on posting in this sub-forum against the rules.   For a random member who acts either repeatedly or especially maliciously, should we report those comments and let the admins address it?  And, as a question I never thought I'd have to ask but need to in light of recent events...if that person is a moderator or admin themselves, what is the proper way of bringing that issue to attention?

Anything you feel needs to be reported can be done so regardless of who you are reporting. From the newest member to the admins themselves. All the reports go to the same place where all the admins can see them so you don't need to worry about who deals with it, all of the admins will get the option to give their opinion and willl do so even if the reported person is an admin

If you feel like there is something wrong and you want to discuss it without reporting you can feel free to message any one of us and we will listen to your issues and help if we can.

[cathdiap]

Honestly, I am a bit disappointed how sensitive some members are for other people's comments that go against their own opinion or believe. Who cares if some people don't agree with your desire to become incontinent? Also, who cares that some people want to be incontinent even though you hate your incontinence. Why should any of us be offended by opposing opinions? I think that's what discussions are all about. 

I understand that the site rules try to protect discussions about the fantasy of those who have incontinence desires. But my question in this thread was focussed on the situation that someone is about to turn this fantasy into a reality in a radical and irreversible way. To me it makes sense that incontinent people give their opinion about this based on their own experience.

If the admins decide that incontinent people are not allowed to have their say in this discussion, then I appologize to them for me having set this trap on this particular subforum. In that case I suggest to completely remove this topic or else to move it to a less regulated or more appropriate subforum on DD.

Thank you.

[BrownBobby]

6 hours ago, cathdiap said:

I understand that the site rules try to protect discussions about the fantasy of those who have incontinence desires. But my question in this thread was focussed on the situation that someone is about to turn this fantasy into a reality in a radical and irreversible way. To me it makes sense that incontinent people give their opinion about this based on their own experience.

This. This is the core of why I feel so strongly about topics like this. The knee-jerk reactions of "Do no harm!" and ignorant replies of "You're crazy/deluded/fucked up!" and trite warnings of "Be careful what you wish for!" simply do not help. For those of us who live with these desires...we know. We know how unusual this is, and how much it affects us. But what choices are there to sate that desire?

I'll share this much about my background. There's a dozen risky, dangerous ways to go about this goal of urinary Incontinence. All of them I can make happen right this second, since I have the cash and connections.  **I do not want to,** but if no other options are there...what's left?

Every professional I've talked with has supported this desire, seeing fulfilling it or moving towards it as the better option over suppressing or denying it.  Most of them are frustrated themselves over the lack of remedies I can use to work towards it. (And if that idea makes you want to call over a dozen medical and mental health professionals quacks or fraud, I'd really, REALLY question that impulse. Do you REALLY think you have a "common sense, obvious, normal" truth that they didn't?)

People who have this desire strongly - not as a kink or a passing urge, but as something that burns in them day in and day out despite any efforts to sate, treat, or reduce it...they want a safe way to accommodate it. And, honestly, it's kind of disappointing to see the response to even having a discussion around that potential  safe path is...this, in a forum allegedly supporting of it.

I appreciate @Elfy's statement of support and reminder to follow standard reporting rules, but until some bigger sign is given, by words or actions of the moderation team, I'm going to assume there really is no safe place, and act accordingly.  It's unfortunate...but I'd rather not have yet another place where I'm called crazy for something I can't control any more than my age, height, or sexual orientation.

 

 

 

[Dubious]

You don't need surgery to become incontinent.

Already exists stents that can be inserted in ~15 minutes.
We just need to make them available to everyone that is willing to pay to get such device inserted. 

There is those that make their own stents, but if if a medical stent became available, and inserted by a professional, I would pay for it.  

[cathdiap]

5 hours ago, Dubious said:

You don't need surgery to become incontinent.

Already exists stents that can be inserted in ~15 minutes.

That's right, but there are members here who don't like that it can be undone, which is of course the case with stents. 

[Dubious]

8 hours ago, cathdiap said:

That's right, but there are members here who don't like that it can be undone, which is of course the case with stents. 

Those medical stents can be inserted to make one continence, which is the point with them.
But they can also be inserted to cause incontinence, by just keeping the valve open.

So it still can be undone. 

[Hannah YMS]

On 3/22/2022 at 4:40 PM, BabySpiderBoy said:

Yeah, I know you have very strong opinions on OUR healthcare system. And quite frankly, it DOES suck. But what do you think about Canada's health Care system, do you think it would be better or worse??????

Canada's healthcare system is 10x better than the US's. I've experienced it myself. I'm American and my wife is Canadian. In the US, I'm in debt up to my ears from medical bills from my bipolar and her epilepsy. In Canada, all we would have to pay for (cheaper, even) is medication,which can easily be done.

The US needs to take a page out of Canada's book an implement it carefully. 

[Hannah YMS]

On 4/14/2022 at 12:38 PM, AwakenEvil said:

Holy shit what did I just read. Reminds me of the guy I banned several years ago when he was pushing his whole narrative that all ABDL community should fuck themselves up so they are diaper dependent disregarding all the medical complications that come with that mess.

The whole notion of medically altering your body is just disturbing at a minimum to achieve your perfection of your ABDL is just stupid. It would be no different for someone with body images removing body parts to achieve a look or different lifestyle. Imagine someone saying they can only be happy if they didn't have use of their limbs and had them surgeries to remove their limbs you'd say they are insane.

I can imagine this. Many of us, including me, identify with having Body Integrity Dysphoria. It's a real thing. It's also starting to get the recognition that it deserves (at least in the ICD at the moment). What you say is hurtful at a minimum, for people like me, and at worst is ignorant. I invite you to to do some research and try to understand people's perspectives regarding BID, as it truly applies here. 

I'm not saying you should agree with me, but I encourage you to gather more facts before talking about a group of people you know nothing about. 

[AwakenEvil]

10 hours ago, jonbearab said:

I can imagine this. Many of us, including me, identify with having Body Integrity Dysphoria. It's a real thing. It's also starting to get the recognition that it deserves (at least in the ICD at the moment). What you say is hurtful at a minimum, for people like me, and at worst is ignorant. I invite you to to do some research and try to understand people's perspectives regarding BID, as it truly applies here. 

I'm not saying you should agree with me, but I encourage you to gather more facts before talking about a group of people you know nothing about. 

As I have pointed out. This is my opinion on this subject. Opinions are just that. You can agree or disagree with them. To assume anyone know more about the subject in regards to another is laughable. You assume I know little to nothing is simply your opinion again. That's a strawman argument which holds no merits. Neither of us knows the others qualifications of one another. The assumption that I should do more research is absurd to say when you don't know what research I have done to come to my conclusion.

The fact is an obvious obsession with medical incontinence is possible harmless to an extreme that is it deviant and dangerous simply depends on how far you are willing to take this. Because something is deviant doesn't mean it is bad thing. Spanking in a BDSM for example is deviant in nature but hardly dangerous unless someone takes it to another level.

I've made my opinions. I have stayed out of the conversation as I don't feel like I can add anything beyond what I said.

I suggest everyone that is offended by my opinions to do one of two things. First block me. If my opinion sends you into a dark place by simply stating my opinion you have gods given free will to block me. Before you say what if I need an admin. There are plenty of us @Elfy@Glennie And @DailyDi To assist you and we all see reports. Even if you report me we all get those reports.

2. Stop replying to my comments. I'm not one to simply not reply to someone that replies to me by tagging me in a comment. Just the nature of the beast.

[babykeiff]

The question "Should surgery for permanent incontinence be allowed and classified as a medical procedure on those who claim to suffer from living in a continent body?" can be simplified.

Surgery IS a medical procedure reguardless of any claim of a paitent.

This makes the question "Should surgery for permanent incontinence be allowed". This very question attempts to expand the rights of the individual as opposed to the choices of the medical team. What I mean by that is that medical take the oath to 'do no harm'. As a result, they may decide that to surgically make a person incontinence could be construed as harm and/or leave the medical team liable for legal redress.

If you wish this to occur to you, it would be advisable to remove the liablility and responsibility from the medical team, if you can before the procedure. Then it comes down to will a medical team perform this procedure on your wishes or do their wishes remove your choice and free will?

Slighty off topic:-

This question should not have caused such contraversy on this sub forum 'Incontinent Desires'. Nothing is changing, and no-one's 'junk' is being chopped of so that they can become disabled for fun / kicks etc. Those who feel offended by the question and then publize their offense is not helpful. We all get offended all the time. Life is about challenges and mastering them - even those here that attempt to challenge free choice.  

 

[Goerge]

On 4/17/2022 at 3:20 AM, incondl said:

George has a huge desire to be incontinent and several years ago really wanted to be at all cost it seemed. I fully understand that need. That’s something that most people cannot understand. It’s been a long time but I had several conversations with him. He’s a very decent person

I had a very strong desire to become double incontinent. I still do but its managed. My incontinence desires became an obsession, an overwhelming obsession. I spent many hours a day, every day researching how to become incontinent. I didn't feel right in my body being continent. I really wanted to hurt myself to achieve incontinence and become disabled. I think with people with this level of need there should be some outlet and surgery should be an option to prevent themselves from hurting themselves.

My life changed in 2010. I was stopped by the police from jumping from a footbridge. I didn't want to die. I wanted to become double incontinent and this desire finally took over. A passerby reported me to the police for looking like I was about to jump. I got sectioned (involuntary hospitalised) and my life has changed for the better. I got diagnosed with an intellectual disability and Attachment disorder.

From the psychologists prospective the Attachment disorder stems from my abusive and neglectful childhood and as a young child the only comfort I had was when wearing nappies so this manifested itself in later life to a comfort/safety feeling when wearing nappies. My desire to be mentally disabled is from seeing other children with disabilities get more love and attention than what I got.

My life is vastly different now. I'm not isolating myself like I did 10 years ago when I used to post constantly on here about making myself incontinent. I'm not spending all my disability money on incontinence nappies and leaving myself with out food.  I'm not going into severe binge/purge cycles and hating myself for it.

I live in a group home for people with disabilities. I wear nappies 24/7 and all the staff now although I am discreet and don't flaunt wearing.. I have my pads and wipes purchased by my group home manager. The bing and purge cycles has gone and I very much love wearing nappies and the comfort it brings me. I have got some IC issues but not the constant dribble with total incontinence. I still very much desire total incontinence but the strong desire to hurt myself is almost gone..

I'm also on strong antipsychotics for psychosis which has lessened my sexual desires and the need for total incontinence has reduced. I want to further disintegrate mentally and become more dependent on people and lose what mental capacity I have left. My psychiatrist says the more times I'm psychotic the further damage it does to my brain. I've been sectioned 13 times now for psychosis and its deemed I can't live independently. I feel a strong need to be dependent.

 

 

[doogles]

On 5/1/2022 at 9:42 AM, Goerge said:

I had a very strong desire to become double incontinent. I still do but its managed. My incontinence desires became an obsession, an overwhelming obsession. I spent many hours a day, every day researching how to become incontinent. I didn't feel right in my body being continent. I really wanted to hurt myself to achieve incontinence and become disabled. I think with people with this level of need there should be some outlet and surgery should be an option to prevent themselves from hurting themselves.

My life changed in 2010. I was stopped by the police from jumping from a footbridge. I didn't want to die. I wanted to become double incontinent and this desire finally took over. A passerby reported me to the police for looking like I was about to jump. I got sectioned (involuntary hospitalised) and my life has changed for the better. I got diagnosed with an intellectual disability and Attachment disorder.

From the psychologists prospective the Attachment disorder stems from my abusive and neglectful childhood and as a young child the only comfort I had was when wearing nappies so this manifested itself in later life to a comfort/safety feeling when wearing nappies. My desire to be mentally disabled is from seeing other children with disabilities get more love and attention than what I got.

My life is vastly different now. I'm not isolating myself like I did 10 years ago when I used to post constantly on here about making myself incontinent. I'm not spending all my disability money on incontinence nappies and leaving myself with out food.  I'm not going into severe binge/purge cycles and hating myself for it.

I live in a group home for people with disabilities. I wear nappies 24/7 and all the staff now although I am discreet and don't flaunt wearing.. I have my pads and wipes purchased by my group home manager. The bing and purge cycles has gone and I very much love wearing nappies and the comfort it brings me. I have got some IC issues but not the constant dribble with total incontinence. I still very much desire total incontinence but the strong desire to hurt myself is almost gone..

I'm also on strong antipsychotics for psychosis which has lessened my sexual desires and the need for total incontinence has reduced. I want to further disintegrate mentally and become more dependent on people and lose what mental capacity I have left. My psychiatrist says the more times I'm psychotic the further damage it does to my brain. I've been sectioned 13 times now for psychosis and its deemed I can't live independently. I feel a strong need to be dependent.

 

 

It seems to me that the ideal scenario is to, first, get people to the point where they don't *want* to injure themselves in vain. Then we should provide them with the means to not live every day as a waking nightmare. After that, help them feel safe, and so on...

 

Most people do not need this help, but I would not want to be remotely associated with anyone who doesn't think that kind of compassion and stewardship is a fundamental human goal. This is why being American is so maddening. Most people in my country would view Goerge as a "drain" or a perverted miscreant. Goerge is a person with serious needs and struggles who *deserves* help. It is merely the minimum to attend to someone in this way, but my culture puts value on people based on a dollar amount.

[Goerge]

2 hours ago, doogles said:

 

Most people do not need this help, but I would not want to be remotely associated with anyone who doesn't think that kind of compassion and stewardship is a fundamental human goal. This is why being American is so maddening. Most people in my country would view Goerge as a "drain" or a perverted miscreant. Goerge is a person with serious needs and struggles who *deserves* help. It is merely the minimum to attend to someone in this way, but my culture puts value on people based on a dollar amount.

Thats why I'm very fortunate to be British as the NHS is wonderful thing. I'm conflicted because I feel like a malingerer and faker but my community nurse says there is no way a person can fake 13 involuntary hospital admission with psychosis and even though I'm now stable with the psychosis they are more treating the attachment disorder and thats why I have a large support package from care staff to keep me stable.

Wearing nappies hugely benefits my mental health, this is in my care plans. This is apart of the attachment disorder. You know wearing nappies isn't seen as the bad thing many people assume on there. My treatment team don't even talk about it anymore. I just sent my support manager a email saving I'm running low and she purchases me my nappies and wipes and its delivered the next day and the parcel in kept in the group home office until I move it to my room, its no problem that I have my bedwetting waterproof sheets on the washing line and I use the washing machines more often.

[Veg]

On 4/24/2022 at 3:58 AM, Dubious said:

You don't need surgery to become incontinent.

Already exists stents that can be inserted in ~15 minutes.
We just need to make them available to everyone that is willing to pay to get such device inserted. 

There is those that make their own stents, but if if a medical stent became available, and inserted by a professional, I would pay for it.  

@DubiousI'm curious, are you referring to a specific stent or to just stents in general?

[FreeFlowin]

If this type of surgery would be available to someone only after meeting specific requirements, specifically the requirement of "having to wear and live as an incontinent person 24/7 for an entire year" before proceeding, then I think at that point, anyone attempting to undergo this surgery would likely already be facing incontinence problems long before the required year was over, and by that point, there would be no need for a surgery of any kind, so at that point... just save your money to buy extra cases of diapers, which you will be needing.

I say this because I've had pretty good to excellent bladder control all my life, but I just recently posted a huge thread in the Bedwetters section of this forum where I described how I wore 24/7 for only ONE WEEK as if I was really incontinent, and within that time-frame, I was able to reach a point where I was bedwetting heavily and not noticing it at all while sleeping, and if I would've continued with my experiment beyond that one week trial-period, there is no doubt in my mind that I would've suffered permenant losses of bladder control, starting at night, and slowly progressing into daytime wetting, and maybe even losses of bowel control as well.

Maybe it's just because I know my own body quite well, and I have become familiar with the muscle groups that are responsible for holding in my waste products and how they behave, and also how to relax them when needed... but I firmly believe that if anyone attempts to go an entire year; wearing diapers 24/7, living as if they were incontinent, releasing their waste products the moment they feel the need, practicing "reverse-kegels" and all that stuff... that they will absolutely face incontinence problems in one way or another, and experience a very real need for diapers at some point, long before the required year is over. 

So, if you have to go through all that trouble anyway just to get the proper surgery, then you're already going to be 99.9% of the way there by the time you actually qualify for it, so that should be PLEANTY of time for you to decide if this life-altering surgery is something you truly want or not. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. I'm not you. I have no idea what your life experience is like. 

The last point I will say about this topic, is that if there was a medical procedure that was invented where I could give someone else their continence back by sacrificing my own continence, I would do it in a heart-beat. Why should someone else suffer unnessecerily when this sort of thing is clearly something that I could handle much better, given my kink/interest? ....lots of strange thoughts on this topic tonight...

 

[Dubious]

After a year of wearing I think the majority don't want to be incontinent, so its a good requirement. 

I have bought training pants etc. Cause I want to stop wearing, but I haven't gotten around to trying. 
I'm not incontinent, I'm just so used to wearing that its hard to stop. 
I mainly want to reduce my time in diapers cost I want to spend my money on stuff that last longer. 

[babykeiff]

Lets focus on the question - surgery to make a person incontinent.

What most ABDLs are interested in is looking for is the same voiding behaviour of a baby/infant. That is voiding as and when needed without being informed prior, during or post the event similar to a baby. A baby voids, but its subcontious is still being told of the event. During / post toilet training, the subcontious tells the contious mind of the event. It is the subcontious mind that intervenes and stops one from wetting / messing themselves. As a result, to regain baby voiding, one has to stop ones own subcontious mind intervening and allow oneself to void on demand - i.e. restart the habit of wetting/messing oneself as a baby.

Urinary Surgical Options -

1. This needs micro surgery on a very specific group of nerves, which even if done right will not work as one needs to know when the bladder fills to trigger the voiding process. As a result, cutting nerves will not create autonomic voiding - it will instead create a situation where one has to catherize oneself on a regular basis.
2. Cutting / deactivating the internal / external sphincters. This is possible but apart from weeping continually, it creates a path for bacteria to enter the bladder / kidneys. As a result, the incontinence will last until one dies from kidney infections etc.
3. Inserting a permanent stint to keep sphincters open. The same issue occurs as above - where a path is created for bacteria as above. Also, with a permanent stint, salts and bacteria will eventually block same.

As a result, surgical intervention to create urinary incontinence is not an option as each known method will not work.

Bowel - Options:-

1. Disabling the sphincters - not really possible as the scar tissue on repair will close the anal sphincter tighter.
2. Insertion of a permanent stint - a hollow butt plug will suffice and to insert one does not need any medically quallified personell.

Surgical intervention to create bowel incontinence will not work.

It is understandable that most medical people try to discuss alternative options to surgically making a person incontinent - and it is usually due to there is not really a way to make one surgically incontinent. Some physicians will attempt to do this for some of their paitents that are already diaper dependant and are having issues fully emptying their bladders usually due to high levels of calcium within their urine etc. If a person approaches a physician requesting surgical intervetion for incontinence, it is normal to presume that that person requires pschycological care and not medical care.

If someone wishes full diaper dependance one shold be in diapers 24/7/365 and use them for everything - and be focused on ensuring that they have a diaper supply first above everything else. After all, that is what they want. After that, they should have read everything about gaining diaper dependence and be well on their way to be diaper dependant.

This makes the original question, plus a lot of the arguments for and against, mute since there is really no way to surgically make a person incontinent. Secondly, a few people are complaining that a person who self induced themselves, with or without medical compliance, incontinence should not be supported from a medical and/or social perspective. This would be denying that person medical and/or social benifit - which itself is discrimination. Equality means that either everyone, despite what they think, believe or act is treated the same.

In relation to a number of people here interfering with this topic, this topic is within a private and protected sub forum of Incontinent Desires. As a result, if you do not have said desires, you have absolutely no business in this sub forum.