Why do some people insist it’s impossible to make yourself incontinent?

[Enthusi]

There’s this belief circulating out there that it is impossible to become incontinent from diaper wearing and unpotty training.   I’ve personally encountered it many times on other social media sites.  I will share my progress, which I admit is remarkable, and inevitably I will get accused of “faking it” because I simply want to get off.  

At best it’s baffling.  At worst it’s discouraging to people who legit want to be diaper dependent.   I try not to take it personally. People on the internet can say whatever they want.  However they’re questioning my integrity, which is hurtful.  

Is it extremely difficult to pull off? Yes! It’s taken me years of untraining, and I’ve spent thousands on hypnosis, and countless hours practicing mindfulness and bladder relaxation techniques.  But it’s not impossible.  

Is it the same as someone who has a medical problem such as irreversible damage to the bladder, or neurological problems causing incontinence? No! But there are different types of incontinence and it can be acute or chronic.   Incontinence is a symptom, not a condition. 

Why would someone question it when someone else says they can’t control their bladder or bowels? Sometimes I just want to be like, “If you don’t believe me that I’m incontinent, then let me stay over at your place, sit on your furniture, eat at your dinner table without a diaper on and let’s see if you still don’t believe me!

Okay, done ranting.  I feel better. You guys rock! ❤️?
 

[~Brian~]

1 hour ago, Enthusi said:

There’s this belief circulating out there that it is impossible to become incontinent from diaper wearing and unpotty training.   I’ve personally encountered it many times on other social media sites.  I will share my progress, which I admit is remarkable, and inevitably I will get accused of “faking it” because I simply want to get off.  

At best it’s baffling.  At worst it’s discouraging to people who legit want to be diaper dependent.   I try not to take it personally. People on the internet can say whatever they want.  However they’re questioning my integrity, which is hurtful.  

Is it extremely difficult to pull off? Yes! It’s taken me years of untraining, and I’ve spent thousands on hypnosis, and countless hours practicing mindfulness and bladder relaxation techniques.  But it’s not impossible.  

Is it the same as someone who has a medical problem such as irreversible damage to the bladder, or neurological problems causing incontinence? No! But there are different types of incontinence and it can be acute or chronic.   Incontinence is a symptom, not a condition. 

Why would someone question it when someone else says they can’t control their bladder or bowels? Sometimes I just want to be like, “If you don’t believe me that I’m incontinent, then let me stay over at your place, sit on your furniture, eat at your dinner table without a diaper on and let’s see if you still don’t believe me!

Okay, done ranting.  I feel better. You guys rock! ❤️?
 

@Enthusi

It is possible to become diaper dependent. Being diaper depend it depends on the fact that you must train your body to except the fact that you are wearing diapers. However the simple fact of putting one on, does not mean that you will use it immediately. You’ll have to continue to work to make that happen. Now that I am wearing diapers 24 seven, When I have a diaper on and I feel the need, I release. Not sure about others, but you can become diaper dependent if you work at it. Just as I say another post, your bladder and bowels are muscles in your body and their arm muscles in your body that you have to train, and that may take time. However, I am always of the opinion that you can do something and succeed if you work hard enough.

@Enthusi I have learned a lot from what you post, and what you tell us. Regardless of what happens, you should not feel bad if someone disagrees with you about the fact that you can become diaper dependent. We all know that you can become diaper dependent, however it does take time, and it does take work. There are a lot of people who believe that there is a “ Quickway” to become incontinent.  There are ways to do that, but there are also ways that might hurt you in doing it. I would rather do it slow and steady, wear diapers as much as I can, and then eventually my body will be so used to releasing when it feels it, that I will just release in a diaper and then change.

if you are in incontinent, That’s what you are. People can say that you are a “faking it” or that it’s “not real”, but we know, and we believe what you are saying. As you say, if there are people that don’t believe that you were incontinent, Just like you say if you sit on a piece of furniture without a diaper, you will release, and then people will understand that. When you are on potty training and learning that skill, it is not fake, and you have the right to do whatever you want, and if you wanna wear diapers that’s fine, and if you wanna learn to Pee or poop in a diaper that’s also fine.  If people are that vengeful that they can’t understand that, then maybe the way that we teach some of these wiseguys is they do exactly what I told my friends what happen.  

I don’t know if I told you the story about some of my friends that were in high school one day. I was in my wheelchair, because I had some surgery where I had to keep my legs and knees abducted all day long and the only thing I could do was stand to use the urinal then I had to sit down. My legs are broken at that time, and they were healing I had pins in there. When I got out of the bathroom one day and I was getting my stuff out of my locker for my next class, there were a bunch of people who came up to me during the day and would ask me how I was, and then they would ask me if I needed help, and then someone said “it must be fun to be in a wheelchair or, because you can go anywhere, and you can go fast, and you don’t have to worry about much“ so that I told someone “you guys don’t understand with all due respect: when someone is in a wheelchair, that is their device, that is how they move around, some people can’t walk, or get dressed by themselves, or use the toilet, without help. And also there are people that are worse off than me, and by that I mean Disabled worse than I am. I even told the people that I was talking to that there are some people who need help using the bathroom, because they can’t go themselves, and I’ve even told him that people wear diapers! You should’ve seen the look on their faces when I told him that. Most of the ladies I speak to understand that, but the guy is apparently thought that it was easy being in a wheelchair.

there were times that I find it interesting that there are people who believe that you are “faking it or whatever“ it is not faking it to wear a diaper and use it. It is also not fake if you want to use it, for whatever purpose, and if you wanna wear diapers all day and not use it that’s fine. It is not fake to do what you were doing anymore than it is fake to do what I do every day. I remember a story somewhere on the Internet, and I’m not sure if it’s on DD or if it’s on another site or maybe it is on that site that we “don’t talk about”, or if it is on another site, but there was a site where there was a young lady who is picking on another young lady who was in a wheelchair or had to wear diapers because of the fact that she was in continent and unable to use the toilet. She picked on this girl for a while, and then apparently got in trouble with the teacher. What happened next was that the teacher gave the mother of the story a note, telling her what her daughter had done. Her mother fixed her wagon: she got the thickest diapers that were possible, Diapered her up, gave her a super shot of Metamucil or fiber, and maybe another diuretic in her food, and sent her to school.

in the story, the The girl she picked on massed herself.   The other girl made fun of her and made snide comments about her having to use her diapers. There was a lot of laughing and cat calling in a bunch of other ridiculousness. And then this young lady got ultimate revenge: all the diuretics and laxatives and fiber that the mothers daughter had been fed caused her to mess herself even worse, and then the girl she picked on got to be able to go “Tsk tsk tsk, sounds like somebody missed their pants“ or “awwwww…did you mess your diaper? Who is the baby now“

people may not understand us my friend, and that is why we have to “educate“ people around us so that they understand what we are dealing with. When we deal with incontinence, why do we cause it ourselves, or does a medical condition: we have to deal with every day, one day I was so bad I had to change 5 to 6 times. That’s five or six NORTHSHORE mega Max diapers Dash and those things are really good, but I can tell you when you have the runs, or you have to go to the bathroom really bad and you just keep filling your diaper, We know what it’s like don’t we? It is not fake, it is not staged, and we have to take care of that mess, as well as to clean up our bathrooms when we make a mess, or take a shower to clean up. This is a daily routine and not a joke and not something that we set up to make people believe that we are faking it. We are not faking it, this is our life, and people who do not understand it need to understand it. They might not except it right away, but there are people that wear diapers every day, and that is there a bathroom.

my brother Richard rest his soul, died at 10 years old, in 1979. All through his life, he wore diapers all the time 24 seven. I understood the reasoning, and I loved him dearly. This was not fake either. My dad and my mom took care of my brother for many years, and there was no mention of faking it or whatever, because it was real.

Don’t you worry about what other people tell you. You have the right to do exactly what you’re doing and you’re doing it.  People can question you, and people can learn from you. I have no problem with that end of it, but there are people who may not think that we are truly in need of our diapers. Remember when I told you about that story above: sometimes I wish that people that did not understand what the reasoning is for wearing diapers had to endure exactly what that girl did. If you have to wear a diaper because you can’t control your bowels or your bladder, there is a reason for it – If you wanna wear a diaper because it feels good for you, or it makes you feel safe, or it makes you feel the way you want to feel, then that is that: there is a psychological reason for you to wear a diaper, and I don’t care whether you wear a diaper because you want to, because you need to, or because you like to. I qualify for all three in addition to the fact that I am disabled. I don’t let my disability get the best of me, so you should not let anyone get the best of you – wear  your diapers and use them Keep being yourself – and don’t worry – keep posting your progress: because wake me there are others that would benefit from your experience. If there are people that disagree with you I don’t believe you, don’t worry about them,

I had a dear friend of mine that I visited in 1999 when I went to Tallahassee. He had a 12-year-old son and a five-year-old son. The five-year-old and a 12 year old were talking apparently, and a 12-year-old told the five year old that he made a mess, or that he might have peeled himself.  My good friend sent to his five-year-old son and I will never forget this: “to thine own self be true”.  He said “daddy what does that mean“. My friend said “this means that if someone tells you you have done something, or accuses you of doing something, you know whether you have done it or not and that’s what that means“ you are the one who knows what you have done, what do you want to do, where are you want to go, and if you want to be totally incontinent that is your business. I am IC, and I can tell you from experience that there are plenty of times where it is like 90° outside and I have to keep myself hydrated.  Without my diapers on a hot day, when I’m not swimming, or doing any water activities, it comes in handy when you are drinking gallons and gallons of water or gallons and gallons or something else. Do not worry about what other people say it because you know what the score is, and you know what is going on.

Roll with it Brother ?????

Brian

[Little Sherri]

I've been in diapers for 2.5 years now, and while I am not physically 100% diaper dependent, and may never be, I also have to acknowledge that everyone's bodies and minds are different, and I can't project my experience on anyone else, and say that therefore they are misleading themselves, or others, because they are having, or claim to be having more "success" with their increasing diaper dependency. I have also never tried hypnosis or any of the active "un-training" methodologies touted elsewhere on the site, so who am I to say if they work or not?

I never actually set out to become diaper dependent; I just decided that I wanted to wear diapers all the time, everywhere, because that is when I am happiest, and my being happy also makes me a better husband/dad/employee/astronaut (I am not an astronaut, just thought I'd throw that in...). I am not sure if I will ever become physically dependent during the day - I've dropped some cruising range during the day, for sure, but if I need to hold it, I can. Overnight may be a different story, but even that isn't so much a case of losing any physiological capability, but rather, a case of retraining systems that otherwise continue to function as designed.

I have myself related stories I've come across that suggest that at least some people are able to regain continence, at least physically, after being in diapers for years, because of physical or pharmacological factors that were later rectified. 

BUT, I would ask this question, to anyone reading, and in support of @Enthusi's point: how easy do you think it's been for me, or anyone else, to redesign their lives around always being in a diaper, everywhere, all the time, no exceptions? Think about how much of a risk it was, coming out to my wife, who up to that point knew nothing of "this", about my plans to dress like a toddler under my clothes for the rest of my life? Ponder for a moment, the amount of risk I and others are willing to put up with in pursuit of this strange goal, knowing that, regardless of how careful and private we try to be, sooner or later, the fact that we wear diapers will probably become apparent to friends, family, and/or work colleagues? 

Ergo, am I not, and are we not, therefore "diaper dependent"? Just as, if I needed to put back 12 ounces of Bourbon in order to get through the day, I would surly be called alcohol dependent, even if my body could function without ethanol's delectable kiss? Why is one more "real" than the other?

 

[Enthusi]

@Little Sherri and @~Brian~ thanks for the amazing thoughtful responses!! 
 

Interestingly, you both brought up the amount of hassle / risk that goes with being in diapers full time.   I think I sometimes forget about the “work” that goes into needing to be diapered at all times: Spending thousands of dollars per year on diapers, having to keep a diaper bag with me at all times, skin rashes, leaks, sweat, odors, traveling, potential embarrassment, having to wear baggy clothes, risk of infection, the list goes on and on and on.    Most of all the fear and feelings of vulnerability that come with not being in diapers.  It’s like a game of Russian Roulette. Will I stay dry? Who knows?!

Ironically, I don’t really think about those things that much… because it just goes with the territory of being incontinent!   

[BabyJilly_S]

6 hours ago, Enthusi said:

People on the internet can say whatever they want.

This is the crux of the vast majority of nonsense happening nowadays.

Some people are just contrary by nature, it takes them no effort or thought to post something and it gives them a cheap thrill. These same people wouldn't say boo to a goose in real life suddenly get very brave and spout all manner of bollocks with no possibility of being called out on it. 

Stay strong, we're with you  

 

[oznl]

 

10 hours ago, Enthusi said:

There’s this belief circulating out there that it is impossible to become incontinent from diaper wearing and unpotty training.
 

I’m aware of at least one individual (occasionally sighted in this place but not recently) who appears to be on a kind of single-baby-jihad to discover and intervene in such discussions in order to didactically impose this view without any kind of scientific or even anecdotal evidence. 

This to the extent that I think this pattern of behaviour is of itself born from some kind of psychological dysfunction.  He must have an asbestos onesie on to withstand the amount of flaming he gets from these endeavours.

I try to keep an open mind on this topic because I don’t yet KNOW how it works.

I’m pretty sure that as toilet training is learned, it can (with some perseverance) be UNLEARNED. I believe this is what’s beneath my bed-wetting.  I’ve "unlearned" how to wake myself up properly for a pee.

Whether or not that unlearning results in some kind of ancillary muscular atrophy to kick in, reinforcing those new behaviours with solid pathology, I just don’t know.  I believe my daytime drippy/dribble/slow/episodic pee pattern to be real enough.

I’ve often said I’d be fascinated to see a urological work-up on a learned-incontinence patient: NOT because I’m challenging the validity of their claim but rather I'd love to understand the underlying mechanisms at play (I'm one of those annoying people who can't even use a domestic appliance without wanting to have an intuitive grasp on how it works).

Even if it is “all in our head”, perhaps if the medical fraternity were to brand this untraining as “neural functional incontinence” we could all move on.

10 hours ago, Enthusi said:

 I will get accused of “faking it” because I simply want to get off. 

The idea that we’d do this for sexual jollies is patently silly.  I know I don’t have NEARLY enough hormones to stay engaged 24/7 for 3 years in search of thrills: the sexual-jollies game is for the two-hour-tourists (and I mean them no ill-will at all, I hope they have a great time!)

3 hours ago, BabyJilly_S said:

Some people are just contrary by nature, it takes them no effort or thought to post something and it gives them a cheap thrill. These same people wouldn't say boo to a goose in real life suddenly get very brave and spout all manner of bollocks with no possibility of being called out on it.

I agree.  Keyboard warriors are a dime a dozen:  I try not to worry too much about strange people on the internet.  There’s loads of them.  Look at us ?

[ozziebee]

Stay in a nappy long enough, and #2 often enough in nappies, and one will find their control over #2 waning to the point where they will forever have skid marks and/or fecal accidents if they ever tried to spend a day in undies.

[DiapergirlWB]

I think a lot of the denial is just semantics.  If you get conditioned to diapers to the point of not noticing the need to go or that it is happening they say you aren't incontinent because theoretically you can regain some if not all control by putting forth a lot of effort, where as an incontinent person cannot control no matter how much effort they exert.  They have the need to shit on others to make themselves feel  superior by being "technically correct".

[Enthusi]

7 hours ago, DiapergirlWB said:

I think a lot of the denial is just semantics.  If you get conditioned to diapers to the point of not noticing the need to go or that it is happening they say you aren't incontinent because theoretically you can regain some if not all control by putting forth a lot of effort, where as an incontinent person cannot control no matter how much effort they exert.  They have the need to shit on others to make themselves feel  superior by being "technically correct".

I get that logic, and I’ve heard that same argument myself, except that it’s not correct.  Incontinence does not necessarily mean irreversible and diaper dependent.  
 

That said, one could make an argument that you can never truly have involuntary loss of control if you volunteered to give it up.   Though my counter argument to that is, what if in the process you also voluntarily gave up to right to retrain? Then you’d be stuck in diapers forever. Does that then classify as incontinence?   Have fun with that rabbit hole! ?

[oznl]

1 hour ago, Enthusi said:

I get that logic, and I’ve heard that same argument myself, except that it’s not correct.  Incontinence does not necessarily mean irreversible and diaper dependent. 

I agree.  I don't think irreversibility would be the test for ANY condition other than "irreversibility".  As for the requirement of diapers, diapers are a therapy, not a condition.  I believe the proposition the diagnosis of incontinence is invalidated by reversibility is a straw man argument: an attempt at refuting a proposition by invoking an extraneous premise.

1 hour ago, Enthusi said:

That said, one could make an argument that you can never truly have involuntary loss of control if you volunteered to give it up. 

Does that mean somebody with type 2 diabetes is not a diabetic?  If you stop and think for a moment, type 2 diabetes is an interesting metaphor.  It is (frequently) a disease that is a consequence of discretionary lifestyle choices and for some longish period of time is reversible.  At some point, it becomes irreversible although the irreversibility itself may not have been a deliberate ("voluntary") choice.  Not that I am in ANY way advocating type 2 diabetes as a "choice" but it is an example of something we can do to ourselves that is irreversible.

1 hour ago, Enthusi said:

That said, one could make an argument that you can never truly have involuntary loss of control if you volunteered to give it up.   Though my counter argument to that is, what if in the process you also voluntarily gave up to right to retrain? Then you’d be stuck in diapers forever. Does that then classify as incontinence?   Have fun with that rabbit hole! ?

"Trapdoor functions" are examples of a voluntary choice to reach an involuntary (insofar as it is irreversible) position.  Mathematically, they are widely used in cryptography.  Trapdoor functions can be observed in meat-space: consider Apotemnophilia, the body integrity disorder related to the removal of limbs.  This is sometimes, somewhat dramatically "resolved" by DIY limb removal.  This would be an example of a deliberate ("voluntary") choice to reach an involuntary outcome.  Are these people then somehow NOT then amputees?  Somewhat of a dark argument I know.

Stepping back from all of this, from what I've seen the "not incontinence" arguments raised by these complainants typically are either:

1. The (alleged) reversibility of the condition

2. The vector by which the condition was acquired (voluntary choice)

None of this of course explains why they feel the necessity to make these arguments.  Interesting thought experiments...  I am advocating neither DIY limb removal nor unlimited doughnut consumption here ?

[DiapergirlWB]

16 hours ago, Enthusi said:

I get that logic, and I’ve heard that same argument myself, except that it’s not correct.  Incontinence does not necessarily mean irreversible and diaper dependent.  
 

That said, one could make an argument that you can never truly have involuntary loss of control if you volunteered to give it up.   Though my counter argument to that is, what if in the process you also voluntarily gave up to right to retrain? Then you’d be stuck in diapers forever. Does that then classify as incontinence?   Have fun with that rabbit hole! ?

This is the arguments that I have seen, not my personal opinion of it.

[Enthusi]

7 hours ago, DiapergirlWB said:

This is the arguments that I have seen, not my personal opinion of it.

Oh I know.  ?

[oznl]

6 hours ago, rusty pins said:

Why is it important? 

I think this is a great question (assuming it wasn't rhetorical).

For me, it’s NOT so important.  My visceral response to a “you’re not really incontinent” accusation (assuming we were discussing my bed wetting which is the only objectively observable symptom of incontinence I can reliably claim to date) would be “I don’t know, it MIGHT just be conditioning, you COULD be right”.

I don’t feel challenged, threatened or annoyed.  For my part, I’m more bemused about what’s motivating these “Not incontinent evangelists” as they appear to be more interested in crusading than debating.

@Enthusi will speak his own mind here but I suspect for some, those kind of narrative-challenging arguments pushes some buttons and there might be some insight to be derived by looking at WHICH buttons are getting pushed.

[~Brian~]

If someone told me that I “wasn’t incontinent“ I wouldn’t worry too much. When you have been doing it, or dealing with it for as long as I have, and had to deal with cleaning up the mess so much that it gets on your nerves, you make the changes you need to make it better for yourself. What other people think of you or what other people believe is true, is none of their business. They will believe what they wanna believe, but the ironic thing is that the only person that really knows what the “real deal is“. Is the person who is wearing/using/changing/ordering diapers or incontinence supplies. Anybody else who does not do this on a regular basis, may not understand what level we have to go through in order to maintain sanity, Safety, Dignity, and other concerns.

The only people that really understand whether or not you are in need of incontinence supplies, are the ones that use them on a regular basis. Everybody else, they don’t need to know, they don’t have to know, and in my case there are certain people that I don’t want them to know. I would rather have a diaper on for my safety security dignity and peace of mind, rather than to have an accident where I went down a couch cushion, or make a mess all over the floor. To make sure that I have The appropriate defense mechanisms, I have invested in Garywear, and I am glad that I have done this. It took me a while to understand that there is nothing to fear whether I wear a diaper or not. I would rather wear one and use it, or wear one and not use it, rather than to need it and not have it.

My incontinence is functional, but it is also medical. When you are constantly dealing with: “continuous liquids of urine, fecal incontinence with fecal urgency“ there are times when you do not know when you will have to urinate or to do a BM. If you age, you may lose some of the ability to hold, and you may need to use diapers as a way to take care of your situation. I have made the choice to use diapers 24 seven because it is easier for me to deal with:  To change your wet or dirty diaper, Rather than to have to clean up the floor: if that happens then we take care of it. I have learned that I have to carry my supplies with me at all times. That is what you have to do.  I’d rather be using diapers and have confidence that that is the right thing to do, rather than have a mess, and think that it was the wrong thing to do.

The only one that can make the determination of whether you are “truly what you say you are” is the person who is dealing with that situation. This means if you were in continent, and you say you’re in continent, you believe you’re in continent... Nothing else matters other than your knowledge of being incontinent.

My friend Steve said it best “to thine own self be true“ meaning that as long as you understand what you know to be true, it doesn’t matter what anybody else thinks. I am very fortunate to have met a lot of good people here on DD, and they all have different opinions, and give differing advice, but they are there to help us when we need it. I think you for each piece of advice, because without good Friends we would be in trouble.

Furthermore, if you go to your doctor, and you can talk him into the fact that you have incontinence, or you are medically in continent, you don’t have to worry, because you will have no problem. I waited so long, and then started having accidents in 2019. I decided to wear diapers full-time in 2020, because of the number of times that I almost had an accident, or I did have an accident, or the fact that it is easier to take a dirty diaper off and throw it away. Others that don’t need to know of your incontinence diagnosis don’t have any right to “Judge you“ about your situation. Every person here on DD has their reason for wearing diapers are using diapers, and I am not here to judge anyone of them:  In fact, there are a lot of professional people that work every day, and you would probably be surprised how many times people may use protection. There is nothing wrong with doing this, and there’s nothing wrong with wearing diapers at all. Basically it depends on the person and his beliefs. As I said it does not matter what anybody else thinks, but it matters what you think. What you believe, and what works best for you.

in fact, there are a lot of professional people that work every day, and you would probably be surprised how many times people may use protection. There is nothing wrong with doing this, and there’s nothing wrong with wearing diapers at all. Basically it depends on the person and his beliefs. As I said it does not matter what anybody else thinks, but it matters what you think. What you believe, and what works best for you.

People that wear diapers for whatever reason: we know that reason, and we don’t have to worry about questioning our reasoning. If it makes her life easier, if it makes us feel better, if it makes us feel that that is the best decision: then so be it. The problem with the rest of the world is that they think that it is “wrong“ to do what we are doing, or to think what we are thinking. Screw that - we all have reasoning for what we do, and we don’t have to worry or try to second-guess ourselves. I am glad that I made the decision in 2020 to go 24 seven, and I wouldn’t change one iota of that decision. If it wasn’t for good people on DD, I think I would be in a lot worse condition than I am now. I have a lot other things that are on my mind, and at least there is one thing that I don’t have to worry about: I don’t have to worry that I am going to get hammered on because I made that decision, and I don’t have to worry if I can’t hold it, because my diapers will  help me.

The only thing that I hope never happens is I hope I never have to use a cheap diaper again. This is one of the reasons why I fight so hard at the beginning to make sure I had the best possible diaper. Thank God for my doctors and all of the people on my team that was able to help me get what I need.

 

On 11/12/2021 at 12:31 AM, ozziebee said:

Stay in a nappy long enough, and #2 often enough in nappies, and one will find their control over #2 waning to the point where they will forever have skid marks and/or fecal accidents if they ever tried to spend a day in undies.

@ozziebee

This morning I would agree with you: when I got up, my diaper was so bloated, that it must’ve weighed 50 pounds. Wet from back to front at least. In that case, you could probably take it throw it against the window and break it. Mega maxes are tough, and I’m telling you that thing must’ve weighed 15 pounds.  I would rather have a diaper on and have to use it, and fill it to the max, then to not have it on and make a mess all over kingdom come. As it has always been the case, the longer you stay in a diaper, are you keep using a diaper, I agree that eventually your control May Wayne, and you may have “skids“ or what spots if you wear anything other than a diaper. I decided to go this way, because it’s easier to change your diaper than it is to constantly have to do laundry. It also makes a difference if you have good diapers, because then you don’t have to worry about it leaking all the way through. This morning my diaper did leak, because I was unaware of how heavy it was. I take Dyazide, which is A blood pressure control/water pill medicine, and I can tell you that once you take one of those you will find out just how much liquid you have in your system. It is amazing how much I thought I had in my system, and I’m glad I have a halfway decent diaper to deal with it.

we shall have to see what happens when I get up tomorrow.

Brian

 

[Kaliborio]

On 11/12/2021 at 1:58 PM, oznl said:

I’ve often said I’d be fascinated to see a urological work-up on a learned-incontinence patient

Strong agree. I run a blog with a strong focus on learned incontinence (untraining) and I get a lot of credit for "explaining" how it works. The thing is, I'm not "explaining." I'm hypothesising from observation. I could be completely off the mark. A urological work-up of the kind you're talking about would be extremely helpful in calibrating my data and making sure my readers get accurate answers.

On 11/12/2021 at 1:58 PM, oznl said:

The idea that we’d do this for sexual jollies is patently silly.

I think for a lot of people there is a sexual element, but they are encouraged, by our community and by society at large, to extrapolate that to: "Oh, it's just a fetish." I don't think that's the case. I think that the sexual element is simply one viewing angle, one aspect, of something considerably deeper and not subject to being negotiated away by framing it as simply jack-off material.

On 11/13/2021 at 10:25 AM, oznl said:

I believe the proposition the diagnosis of incontinence is invalidated by reversibility is a straw man argument: an attempt at refuting a proposition by invoking an extraneous premise.

A quick tangent. I'm transgender. I don't think being trans and being in diapers are fundamentally similar; I think it would be dangerous to compare them. However, I have noticed with some amusement that a lot of discussions in the AB/DL—untrainer community tend to follow similar lines to discussions about the philosophy of transness, by complete coincidence. What you're working on here is a sort of parallel to the trans immutability problem.

In its original form, the immutability problem reads as follows: In order to qualify for legal protection, a characteristic, such as gender identity, must be immutable. However, where does that put people who feel their gender identity has genuinely fundamentally changed to the one which is motivating them to transition? Why are gender identities which are identified in that way less valid than gender identities which have subjectively been present since birth? A parallel discourse seems to be taking shape here.

 

[Cushy Tushy]

I definitely agree that you can reach incontinence of both bladder and bowel from wearing diapers 24/7 and untraining from the potty and relaxing/weakening  your bladder  & bowels.  This however is not something that happens quickly. It took me several years of wearing 24/7 both wetting and messing in my diaper to have this happen for me. 

[~Brian~]

On 11/11/2021 at 6:36 PM, Enthusi said:

@Little Sherri and @~Brian~ thanks for the amazing thoughtful responses!! 
 

Interestingly, you both brought up the amount of hassle / risk that goes with being in diapers full time.   I think I sometimes forget about the “work” that goes into needing to be diapered at all times: Spending thousands of dollars per year on diapers, having to keep a diaper bag with me at all times, skin rashes, leaks, sweat, odors, traveling, potential embarrassment, having to wear baggy clothes, risk of infection, the list goes on and on and on.    Most of all the fear and feelings of vulnerability that come with not being in diapers.  It’s like a game of Russian Roulette. Will I stay dry? Who knows?!

Ironica lly, I don’t really think about those things that much… because it just goes with the territory of being incontinent!   

@Enthusi

Being in current means that you have to have certain things available to you at all times. Whether it be dry clothes, extra supplies, powder/rash cream/lotion, or whatever you need, along with wipes, disposal bags in the like.  I learned that lesson when I started using regular black trash bags to get rid of incontinence supplies. It wasn’t bad, but after a while you end up throwing diapers into this bag, and after a while it starts to smell. There are better ways to handle disposal of incontinence supplies. To fix this problem, I got the Jenibelle disposal system with the disposal bags, and a box of 35 scented disposal bags that I used to take care of individual diapers. When this becomes full I just open it up pull it out and down and then cut it off tie it off and we’re finished.

when you’re in continent, that also means that you have to make sure that you have your supplies. I learned that as well, because you do not want to wait until your prior authorization runs out before you ask for more supplies. I am lucky this time, because my supplier has all of the necessary information she needs to be able to resubmit to be able to get it done. I emailed her this morning and thanked her for that and made sure that she was all set. When you were in diapers, that means that you are in them 24 seven 365. It means that when you were wet or dirty, That you change whenever you can. It also means that you may not be able to change every where are you want to, because you may use your diaper in a position where you’re unable to change. When I go out I always put on a pair of GARY wear because of the fact that you have to have some sort of protection over your diaper in case you thought it, or use it to its fullest capacity, and you don’t want anything that’s in the diaper to be able to get outside of your protection.

Just like a carpenter or contractor has his tools: incontinent individuals have to have there’s.  I am glad that I requested what I requested this year, and although it was $600 or more, it will help me to make sure that we are able to deal with incontinence to the best possible way. You just have to make sure that you have what you need when you need it, and that you don’t wait until you’re out before you order. If you do that, you will be waiting, because you may have to deal with the “politics of getting what you need“. Once you become skilled at taking care of “incontinence issues“, it will be easier for you. However anyone who decides they want to become incontinent should be aware that we will cost them more money, it will cost them time, and it will require that you get the equipment you need to support it.

I agree that the longer you stay in a diaper, and if you keep using them, you will eventually learn to release without having any issues. By this I mean you will release, and you will change your diapers because they are dirty or wet, and after a while, it will just happen – anywhere anytime, and you must be prepared to deal with it. When I go to work, I carry my supplies on the back of my chair, and can quickly and easily change myself because I have learned how to do it. While I am at work, I use a handicap accessible bathroom, with enough space so that I can use the toilet, clean myself up, and then go to the dressing area on the other side of the bathroom to be able to put my diaper on. It took practice for me to do this, but I am able to do it. As I said you have to learn new ways to do the things you used to do. My pastor has taught me that that is what we must do, especially in times where Covid is rampant all over the place.

I am happy and contented. I don’t have to worry about incontinence anymore. I don’t have to worry that I have to run to the bathroom, or to do anything that would be dangerous. I’ve dealt with this situation for years, and I’m glad that I have finally come to a solution that makes it easy for me to do or to deal with. In my mind, it has always been my contention that I want to make my life as easy for myself as I can, and sometimes CP can be a pain in the butt, but I manage.

Brian

[oznl]

8 hours ago, Kaliborio said:

Strong agree. I run a blog with a strong focus on learned incontinence (untraining) and I get a lot of credit for "explaining" how it works. The thing is, I'm not "explaining." I'm hypothesising from observation. I could be completely off the mark.

A blog!  I’d imagined that people such as us were a very small subset of a very small subset of the general population.  That there would be sufficient “addressable market” for such a blog is something of a surprise to me.  I found it btw.

8 hours ago, Kaliborio said:

 A urological work-up of the kind you're talking about would be extremely helpful in calibrating my data and making sure my readers get accurate answers.

I suspect this information IS out there somewhere if the more-than-one number of 24/7 folk who have claimed an eventual incontinence diagnosis after prolonged 24/7 are on the level…  Anybody?  If I wind up in such a place myself I will try to share.

8 hours ago, Kaliborio said:

I think for a lot of people there is a sexual element, but they are encouraged, by our community and by society at large, to extrapolate that to: "Oh, it's just a fetish." I don't think that's the case. I think that the sexual element is simply one viewing angle, one aspect, of something considerably deeper and not subject to being negotiated away by framing it as simply jack-off material.

For sure there's a whole spectrum on this.  There is (or at least, once WAS) a sexual dimension to my DL thing but I note that DL pre-dated hormones and sex and seems to be surviving the inevitable wind-down of sex drive very nicely.  I wonder if my DL aspect was just an overlay on sex rather than a core driver of it but I doubt my personal experience is reflective of everybody’s.

8 hours ago, Kaliborio said:

A quick tangent. I'm transgender. I don't think being trans and being in diapers are fundamentally similar; I think it would be dangerous to compare them. However, I have noticed with some amusement that a lot of discussions in the AB/DL—untrainer community tend to follow similar lines to discussions about the philosophy of transness, by complete coincidence. What you're working on here is a sort of parallel to the trans immutability problem.

In its original form, the immutability problem reads as follows: In order to qualify for legal protection, a characteristic, such as gender identity, must be immutable. However, where does that put people who feel their gender identity has genuinely fundamentally changed to the one which is motivating them to transition? Why are gender identities which are identified in that way less valid than gender identities which have subjectively been present since birth? A parallel discourse seems to be taking shape here.

 

Mmm…  are acquired traits somehow inferior to inherited ones?  It does sound a lot like an analogous situation.  I’ve also seen similarly-constructed challenges to trans folk tossed around: relating to the reversibility of the condition (well, THAT can be fixed these days if that’s what you’re after) and also the acquisition vector (conscious choice as opposed to biological imperative although there seems to be an arguable-but-externally-invisible case for "psychological imperative" here).

Irrespective of whether or not there are any links beneath these similarities, I’ve often wondered at what SEEMS to be a statistically higher-than-expected proportion of trans folk found in these kind of places.  It might just be that it’s an accepting environment here and there’d be that many in the general community if they weren’t all repressed by societal expectation.  Societal expectation kind of goes out the window when you wear nappies for lifestyle reasons.

There has to be a PhD in this for somebody surely…   Interesting discussion!

[Enthusi]

@Kaliborio @oznl:  I would be simultaneously  nervous and thrilled about having urodynamic testing done on me.  Does it factor in effort? What if you simply don’t try to hold it in during the test? 

1. If the testing proved that my bladder  capacity was less than that of a normal adult, it would objectively validate that my technique did work, and show that incontinence from unpotty training was indeed feasible  

 

2. On the other hand, if testing showed no measurable difference between me and a normal continent adult male, then it raises several possibilities.  Either: 
 

2a. My incontinence is more of a reflex- conditioned behavior.  For some reason that doesn’t sit with me as well as if the objective testing was conclusive.  Not sure why that bothers me, but it does.  

OR

2b.  I’m not incontinent, but rather just a dude who enjoys peeing his pants.   Though this raises the question… what if someone enjoys peeing their pants so much they are addicted to it and can’t stop? Would you call them incontinent? I would!  In which case the testing is moot.  
 

Though at this point it’s purely academic considering there isn’t really any medical indication for me getting testing.  Just an interesting thought experiment. 

 

[spark]

I'll start off by saying that the debate whether one's incontinence is true or not is a strange argument, and not really productive.  It's the same as trying figure out if you're an AB, DL, Little, Sub, LB (and whatever other label that we have).

On 11/12/2021 at 7:24 AM, DiapergirlWB said:

I think a lot of the denial is just semantics.  If you get conditioned to diapers to the point of not noticing the need to go or that it is happening they say you aren't incontinent because theoretically you can regain some if not all control by putting forth a lot of effort, where as an incontinent person cannot control no matter how much effort they exert.  They have the need to shit on others to make themselves feel  superior by being "technically correct".

The question that we need answered is what is meant by incontinent?   AFAIK, doctors  consider any accidental elimination as an episode of incontinences. By that definition, I'm incontinent.   But in some circles, the definition is a little stricter.  In that definition, there is dysfunction between nerves and the brain, and there is zero ability to even recognize the need to void the bladder or evacuate the bowels.   And they might not even realize

That's nothing close to what I experience.    We have people who do have that.  I believe Brian would be one.  I'm not a doctor, and by no means an expert on this.   However I don't believe that is possible with just cognitive conditioning.

I am an expert in my personal story, and level of incontinence.   For me- my bladder sends my brain a message saying "We would like to offload some cargo."  If I'm standing  and in a diaper- it doesn't go that high up the chain.  It gives the go ahead, and I pee without much choice.   Other times I know, and I'm at least aware before I go.  This would be equivelant of CC'ing the boss on decision.   Sometimes the boss sends down the message "Hold up".   Sometimes it will send it to the department that sends me to bathroom and avoid using a diaper.

Personally, I don't have much desire to poop my diapers.  Pooping is block, and I have to consciously do something to poop in a diaper.  But in the mornings, my bowels tend to communicate an urgent need.  Whichever part is in charge of the bowel sends the message "We're dropping soon, move now"  Since a messy diaper is a PITA to deal with, I tend to react and head to toilet.  And the cheeks don't even reach the rim before everything drops.

[Kaliborio]

3 hours ago, oznl said:

A blog!  I’d imagined that people such as us were a very small subset of a very small subset of the general population.

I think that is a pretty sensible imagining, although I think we are likely to "a medium-to-large subset of a very small subset." While there are massive practical difficulties in figuring out what percentage of the general population we make up (Pate & Gabbard, 2003), AB/DL communities in aggregate appear to represent a larger-than-the-individual-kink-average percentage of kink communities as a whole (Hawkinson & Zamboni, 2014).

3 hours ago, oznl said:

That there would be sufficient “addressable market” for such a blog is something of a surprise to me.

It surprised me, too! However, it does appear to be the case. Right now — Tuesday 16 November 2021, 12:32pm Australian Eastern Standard Time (UTC+10) — kali-is-an-abdl has exactly 3,811 followers. This is the largest audience I personally can reach on any social media platform, by a factor of about 2. I also feel like my AB/DL content has the strongest engagement out of any content I make.

I actually believe that the way I currently blog is likely to limit the maximum potential size of my audience and slow the rate at which it grows. My style is grammatically and structurally complex writing using a lot of unfamiliar polysyllabic words, which decreases readability and thus engagement; I'm also not engaging in any strategies to maximise interaction (e.g. "Reblog this if..."). I am totally fine with this — I am not trying to maximise either audience size or growth rate; the way I make content now makes me happy, and I think it makes some other people happy too.

The relevance is that if that belief is true, the "addressable market" might be much larger than figures from my blog suggest, because my audience share is smaller than the audience share that a hypothetical blog with the same topic but more readable content and intentional maximisation of engagement would have accumulated over the same period of time.

3 hours ago, oznl said:

There is (or at least, once WAS) a sexual dimension to my DL thing but I note that DL pre-dated hormones and sex and seems to be surviving the inevitable wind-down of sex drive very nicely.  I wonder if my DL aspect was just an overlay on sex rather than a core driver of it but I doubt my personal experience is reflective of everybody’s.

My experience has been similar. I've known I was AB/DL since very early childhood — e.g., I am pretty sure I remember knowing it when I was 4.

While I will never experience andropause, which seems to be what you're describing (Dimopoulou et al., 2016), feminising HRT is infamous for often killing libido stone dead (Coleman et al., 2017, p. 189), at least initially. It did for me, but, as in your case, my AB/DL aspect survived easily — which is great! I had had basically no continence for about 6 years before starting HRT, so if I had gotten to that point entirely on sex drive and then had the rug pulled from under me, that would have been a really hard thing to face.

I personally think your assessment is astute; I think AB/DL interacts with sexuality but I don't believe it's fundamentally sexual. AB/DL is integral to my sexuality, in that in the very short window where I was both having sex and not spending all my time in diapers, I felt incredibly uncomfortable, and have only been able to feel comfortable with sex in the context of being, among other things, diapered full-time. However, if my sexuality went away I think my AB/DL aspect would remain.

4 hours ago, oznl said:

there seems to be an arguable-but-externally-invisible case for "psychological imperative" here

I cannot overstate how strongly I agree with this. In my life so far, there have been exactly two things about me that I have never been able to do anything to control: my gender, and this. I am a compulsive rule-follower but was not able to follow rules if they meant staying out of diapers. I had to deal with the intense psychological stress and social (immediate family) consequences of breaking rules, but wasn't able to use that stress to dissuade myself; the imperative was too strong.

4 hours ago, oznl said:

I’ve often wondered at what SEEMS to be a statistically higher-than-expected proportion of trans folk found in these kind of places.  It might just be that it’s an accepting environment here and there’d be that many in the general community if they weren’t all repressed by societal expectation.  Societal expectation kind of goes out the window when you wear nappies for lifestyle reasons.

I definitely think it's possible that trans people are more comfortable being "out" in AB/DL communities because the environment is more transgressive of social norms. I'd like to say that the importance of the environment being transgressive is that people, engaging in transgression and not being hypocrites, don't police different forms of transgression by others. I'd like to say that. However, my experience has been that AB/DL communities are actually (slightly) disproportionately social-conservative and that people are not less likely to vocally attack marginalised people here than anywhere else.

I think the reason trans folks are more comfortable being "out" in AB/DL communities, if they are, is that, even though people are no less likely to attack us here, their tactical and strategic advances are distinctly dampened compared to the "normal" public forum. It's not in a cisgender AB/DL's interest to join some sort of gender and sexuality normality crusade to hunt down trans people, when it's patently obvious that a crusade with that objective would turn on them the second the last trans person was driven out.

In terms of societal expectations and nappies, I will say that being AB/DL actually prepared me surprisingly well for realising I was trans — I had to work over a lot of the same ground about bodily autonomy, morphological freedom and self-knowledge, so by the time I went "Oh shit, I'm a girl" in second quarter 2020, I'd already solved most of the problems in my head.

4 hours ago, oznl said:

There has to be a PhD in this for somebody surely…

Maybe one of the co-authors from those papers that BitterGrey co-authored might know somebody.  

References

Coleman, E., Bockting, W., Botzer, M., Cohen-Kettenis, P., DeCuypere, G., ... & Zucker, K. (2012, August 27). Standards of care for the health of transsexual, transgender, and gender-nonconforming people, version 7. International Journal of Transgenderism, 13(4), 165-232. doi:10.1080/15532739.2011.700873.

Dimopoulou, C., Ceausu, I., Depypere, H., Lambrinoudaki, I., Mueck, A., ... & Goulis, D.G. (2015, November 6). EMAS position statement: Testosterone replacement therapy in the aging male. Maturitas, 84, 94-99. doi:10.1016/j.maturitas.2015.11.003.

Hawkinson, K., & Zamboni, B.D. (2014, January 29). Adult baby/diaper lovers: An exploratory study of an online community sample. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 43, 863-877. doi:10.1007/s10508-013-0241-7.

Pate, J.E., & Gabbard, G.O. (2003, November 1). Adult baby syndrome. American Journal of Psychiatry, 160(11), 1932-1936. doi:10.1176/appi.ajp.160.11.1932.

[Kif]

9 hours ago, Kaliborio said:

I cannot overstate how strongly I agree with this. In my life so far, there have been exactly two things about me that I have never been able to do anything to control: my gender, and this. I am a compulsive rule-follower but was not able to follow rules if they meant staying out of diapers. I had to deal with the intense psychological stress and social (immediate family) consequences of breaking rules, but wasn't able to use that stress to dissuade myself; the imperative was too strong.

Thank you for stating this -- I relate a lot, but hadn't really had it put that way before. 

Also am a 'rule follower' kind of person, myself. Of all things though, diapers and gender are the two I was consistently willing to break rules for. 

Probably would be a good question for 'rule followers' to ask themselves in-general..."What are you willing to break rules for?"

[sparklezBear]

11 hours ago, Kif said:

"What are you willing to break rules for?"

Just a +1. Gender, nappies.

[oznl]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:17 AM, Enthusi said:

@Kaliborio @oznl:  I would be simultaneously  nervous and thrilled about having urodynamic testing done on me.  Does it factor in effort? What if you simply don’t try to hold it in during the test?

No idea.  Perhaps somebody "in the trade" might know.  I'm aware that electromyography could be used to detect nerve signals that relevant muscles SHOULD respond to but the brain is the biggest black-box function generator we know.  If the signal wasn't being generated by the nerve because the brain decided not to bother then I doubt an observer could empirically explain why.  I guess it might be possible to manually stimulate the necessary muscles to see if they work.

I suppose if it was necessary to throw the test by making no sincere effort then you've answered your own question.

Whilst not daytime-incontinent, I've said before that there are things that "don't work" anymore it seems.  One of these is trying to stop a pee that has started.  In this case, the phenomenon I notice is that I just don't seem "strong enough" down there.  I can feel rusty muscles moving but it isn't enough (sometimes I can pause it but only for a second).  There's always the thought at the back of my head that I would succeed if I tried harder.

[BabyBoi91]

I can definitely say that wearing 24/7 (due to initial bladder problems) for a few years has now lead to complete bladder and bowel incontinence . I’m fine with it . Much more comfortable this way. 

the few times I tried to go a few days without diapers were disastrous. 
 

I didn’t even have to try too hard. I think the bigger thing was “not trying”. Just letting go and letting my body just do whatever on it’s time .