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Another Daily Wail article about kids not being toilet trained

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4649006/Britain-faces-potty-training-crisis.html.

 

They have run similar stories before.  Apparently the average age for toilet-training is now three and a half years.  Social workers only take note if the child is not trained by the age of seven.  Some children have been observed to reach the age of nine, but one wonder if these are "special needs" children.

The article mentions the humiliation and isolation of school-age children who still wear nappies, but does not mention the risks with which we are so familiar: that if children are humiliated over wearing nappies, they may go on to develop a nappy fetish.

 

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I think this is more common than one might think because there are many parents who might not admit to having older kids who aren't potty trained. I was a child in the seventies who was a late potty trainer and my mom and grandma went to great lengths to keep that fact hidden. I began starting to use the potty at age 4 but had frequent day wetting accidents until age 11. I pooped in my pants almost daily until age 9 and  I continued to wet the bed until almost age 13, so even though I was able to use the potty and "potty trained" right after I was 4, the fact is that I was not

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I always thought the first story was a classic case of making an issue seem much bigger than it really. They did it by cherry picking extremes, and making vague statements that are difficult to prove. They tried to make a big deal of older children wearing nappies, but some of them were just at night.  They were acnedotal stories from Kindergarten teachers, but very few actual numbers.  

This one seems guilty of the same thing.   There could be a huge national crisis coming on in England, but these articles seem to over-hype the situation. 

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On 30/06/2017 at 3:27 AM, spark said:

I always thought the first story was a classic case of making an issue seem much bigger than it really. They did it by cherry picking extremes, and making vague statements that are difficult to prove. They tried to make a big deal of older children wearing nappies, but some of them were just at night.  They were acnedotal stories from Kindergarten teachers, but very few actual numbers.  

This one seems guilty of the same thing.   There could be a huge national crisis coming on in England, but these articles seem to over-hype the situation. 

A good summary of the daily mail !

Maly.

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That is incredibly disingenuous, Maly. It is a good summation of sensationalism, not the newspaper. Unless YOU have numbers to back that up.

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On 6/29/2017 at 3:02 PM, Dougie1970 said:

I think this is more common than one might think because there are many parents who might not admit to having older kids who aren't potty trained. I was a child in the seventies who was a late potty trainer and my mom and grandma went to great lengths to keep that fact hidden. I began starting to use the potty at age 4 but had frequent day wetting accidents until age 11. I pooped in my pants almost daily until age 9 and  I continued to wet the bed until almost age 13, so even though I was able to use the potty and "potty trained" right after I was 4, the fact is that I was not

I think you might be right on this one. My situation was similar and I've also seen it with other families. Some kids just aren't ready by 3. 

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Hope this ain't too off topic but if it was my choice and a fantasy world i would just say for get the whole toilet thing and just have everyone wear diapers lol

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Well if it gets bad enough then we will be seeing quite a few of them on the forums in a few years

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This article doesn't surprise me one bit.

A bit of topic but I spend a good amount of time in schools for work purposes. We work in elementary and high schools and in major centers to very small towns. I was recently in a K-4 school in a fairly small area and while using the facilities( single room with one sink and toilet). noticed a handful of kids still in diapers at that school. Beside the toilet there was a cubby with  the four name tags and four places to keep diapers and wipes. Three kids used pull ups/ goodnights and one wore tena diapers. There was also a potty and those seats kids use that go over the regular toilet.  The school had about 400 kids. It made me wonder if they didn't have much of a problem with bullying as everything was out in plane site and clear to anyone using the bathroom.  

 

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One of the major things the media does not account for is the rise in diagnosis of autism spectrum disorders, which is probably what most of the children in diapers at school have. In 1980 1 in 789 kids were diagnosed with autism; by 1990 it was 1 in 152. By 2000 it was 1 in 89 and by 2010 it was 1 in 56. As a father with 2 kids on the spectrum, I can attest to the struggles of having school age children in diapers or pull-ups. The real concern should not be school aged children in diapers but the rising rate of autism. 

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On 9/25/2017 at 3:59 PM, Babyqtboy said:

One of the major things the media does not account for is the rise in diagnosis of autism spectrum disorders, which is probably what most of the children in diapers at school have. In 1980 1 in 789 kids were diagnosed with autism; by 1990 it was 1 in 152. By 2000 it was 1 in 89 and by 2010 it was 1 in 56. As a father with 2 kids on the spectrum, I can attest to the struggles of having school age children in diapers or pull-ups. The real concern should not be school aged children in diapers but the rising rate of autism. 

I know this will sound stupid but my life can back this point up.   I was diagnosed with ADHD back in 1985 when I was in kindergarten, very bad ADHD.   Then many years later when I went to college when I was in my 20's and I struggled and almost flunked out and we could not figure out why that was the case because in high school I was a very high honor role student so we didn't understand why it happened.   So then I was tested at Southern Illinois University and found out that in addition to ADHD I also had mild Asperger's, which because of the fact that extreme change of the environment since I when to college about two hours from where I lived and a change in routine I ended up struggling.   However, I am a stubborn person so I worked even harder and promised my mom that I would fix my grades the next semester and I did.  Then even more years later I went to live by myself and found out my mild Asperger's came with epilepsy as well.   So yeah that and I had one of those seziures in front of my mom.   Anyway that is why I purposely asked to be put on the night shift because the lack of costumers on my shift would make it far less likely that I would say something stupid to one of them, which is the constant fear I have when I wake up every morning and look in the mirror and think to myself what stupid thing am I going to say today.   However, I have been on my own for ten years now and while my mom wants me to come back home to Chicago because of the seziure problem, the fact that she is might soon not be able to drive up here at hear current age, and because the only reason I can afford to live here is because all the homicides, robbery, and drugs that drive the property values down here down.   Not to mention the current US Censes stated that while we are the four most populated in Illinois we are the number one city in Illinois that is losing people (and since this is Illinois that is saying something).   So basically what will happen in a couple of years is that my city will become another Flynn Michigan.   Fun times.   Anyway that is all for this incoherent rant of mine.   However, my point stands is that they knew more about autism when I started in college then when I was first tested at the age of five so I can personally back up what babyqtboy here is saying.

 

Your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman

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How about this as an alternative: Teach kids to change their own diapers and give them an option as to whether or not they want to use the toilet. That way parents aren't burdened with all those nasty diaper changes and kids can wear diapers as long as they are comfortable doing so.

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3 hours ago, Spiderman said:

I know this will sound stupid but my life can back this point up.   I was diagnosed with ADHD back in 1985 when I was in kindergarten, very bad ADHD.   Then many years later when I went to college when I was in my 20's and I struggled and almost flunked out and we could not figure out why that was the case because in high school I was a very high honor role student so we didn't understand why it happened.   So then I was tested at Southern Illinois University and found out that in addition to ADHD I also had mild Asperger's, which because of the fact that extreme change of the environment since I when to college about two hours from where I lived and a change in routine I ended up struggling.   However, I am a stubborn person so I worked even harder and promised my mom that I would fix my grades the next semester and I did.  Then even more years later I went to live by myself and found out my mild Asperger's came with epilepsy as well.   So yeah that and I had one of those seziures in front of my mom.   Anyway that is why I purposely asked to be put on the night shift because the lack of costumers on my shift would make it far less likely that I would say something stupid to one of them, which is the constant fear I have when I wake up every morning and look in the mirror and think to myself what stupid thing am I going to say today.   However, I have been on my own for ten years now and while my mom wants me to come back home to Chicago because of the seziure problem, the fact that she is might soon not be able to drive up here at hear current age, and because the only reason I can afford to live here is because all the homicides, robbery, and drugs that drive the property values down here down.   Not to mention the current US Censes stated that while we are the four most populated in Illinois we are the number one city in Illinois that is losing people (and since this is Illinois that is saying something).   So basically what will happen in a couple of years is that my city will become another Flynn Michigan.   Fun times.   Anyway that is all for this incoherent rant of mine.   However, my point stands is that they knew more about autism when I started in college then when I was first tested at the age of five so I can personally back up what babyqtboy here is saying.

 

Your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman

Thank you for sharing that spidey, my oldest has asperger's which of course is no longer a diagnosis, it has been lumped into the ASD, Autism Spectrum Disorder, so I know firsthand what you are talking about. Seizures effect about 10 percent of autism population, I got lucky there, neither of my boys on the spectrum have seizures. Being in the military, constantly moving had the biggest effect on my kids. I am glad to hear that you were able to overcome your challenges. 

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On 9/27/2017 at 3:12 AM, Spiderman said:

However, my point stands is that they knew more about autism when I started in college then when I was first tested at the age of five so I can personally back up what babyqtboy here is saying.

 

Your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman

2

I have some professional experience working with Aspergers, or High Functioning Autism, and have developed a theory that i've shared, but have yet to prove.     My theory is that every single individual falls somewhere on the spectrum, and there is factor that we could assign to everybody.   A person who falls at the exact norm  would be a 50, and the non-verbal autistics would be close to 0.   My theory that those of us on both extremes of the functions have obstacles that affect our social functioning.     I think I'm closer to an 85 or 90 on that scale, which could explain my need to shut down from social life for some periods, and desire to put diapers on.

 

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8 hours ago, spark said:

I have some professional experience working with Aspergers, or High Functioning Autism, and have developed a theory that i've shared, but have yet to prove.     My theory is that every single individual falls somewhere on the spectrum, and there is factor that we could assign to everybody.   A person who falls at the exact norm  would be a 50, and the non-verbal autistics would be close to 0.   My theory that those of us on both extremes of the functions have obstacles that affect our social functioning.     I think I'm closer to an 85 or 90 on that scale, which could explain my need to shut down from social life for some periods, and desire to put diapers on.

 

Doesn't that go for all mental illness though? For the most part I have always come to the conclusion that mental illness is just exaggerated healthy behavior. That might be nonsense and I'm mostly talking out of my ass here. The closest thing to any sort of mental health training I have is taking Psychology 101 courses in High School and College. 

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9 hours ago, spark said:

I have some professional experience working with Aspergers, or High Functioning Autism, and have developed a theory that i've shared, but have yet to prove.     My theory is that every single individual falls somewhere on the spectrum, and there is factor that we could assign to everybody.   A person who falls at the exact norm  would be a 50, and the non-verbal autistics would be close to 0.   My theory that those of us on both extremes of the functions have obstacles that affect our social functioning.     I think I'm closer to an 85 or 90 on that scale, which could explain my need to shut down from social life for some periods, and desire to put diapers on.

 

sorry to disagree but I don't share this professional opinion. Even high functioning autistics have some cognitive, physical, and or social development delays that are recognizable, definable, and diagnosable. It would be my professional opinion that if you are an otherwise normal functioning adult with no developmental delays but have a need or desire to shut down from social life I would lean towards depression or anxiety. Diapers are just a coping mechanism, therefore they have nothing to do with the diagnosis. My wife suffers from anxiety, and when she needs to retreat from society and social stimulus she smokes weed or knits. Your desire for diapers derives from something else; childhood trauma, emotional abuse, or possibly early sexual encounters. A lot of funny things happen to our brains during puberty where we make unusual connections with sex and sexuality. I was physically and emotionally abused as a child, humiliated by my parents for a medical condition that I had no control over. I hated diapers growing up, I associated them with shame and humiliation. When I was 13 I was dating a girl who babysat 2 kids next door. The oldest was almost 4 and not potty trained. I would watch my girlfriend interact with them and change them and she was always kind, loving and gentle. Something triggered in my brain and I was jealous. That is where my desire for diapers began. I remember 'borrowing" a few diapers when she was in the bathroom and later at home trying one on. The only thing I could think of was my girlfriend diapering me and babying me. 

I know I got a little long winded there but the point is that I have a very high IQ, no childhood cognitive delays, don't register anywhere on the spectrum, but still have a desire to escape from society myself every once in a while. And I assure you I am one of the most social, outgoing people you will ever meet.

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11 hours ago, Babyqtboy said:

I know I got a little long winded there but the point is that I have a very high IQ, no childhood cognitive delays, don't register anywhere on the spectrum, but still have a desire to escape from society myself every once in a while. And I assure you I am one of the most social, outgoing people you will ever meet.

 

I think you misread my theory.  It's not that everybody is autistic, or what we would consider autistic.  The people we consider as autistic rest on the extreme end of the scale.  The people we on the other end of the scale are at the opposite of things.  I don't mean in Kristin Chenoweth sort of way.   A guy like Robin Williams would be an example of the other extreme.   He got so many social cues that his brain couldn't handle all of it.  It helped him become a genius comedian, but he had addiction issues and huge depression problems.

I know I use diapers to cope with anxiety.   I have a very good who clearly has the same types of issues, but he smokes pots. He is probably more towards the HFA side of the spectrum   

 

As an adult, I've successfully maintained numerous friendships, and have zero issues with social anxiety (I adore small talk).   At the same token, I require a lot of time by myself.    I think I get a lot of social cues and it can become overwhelming.   I seriously doubt my good friends suspect that I choose to wear diaper, but it's my crutch to keep me sane.

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On 9/29/2017 at 6:27 AM, spark said:

 My theory is that every single individual falls somewhere on the spectrum, and there is factor that we could assign to everybody.   

I agree with this - but it might be nescessary to make the scale logarithmic.

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11 hours ago, spark said:

I think you misread my theory.  It's not that everybody is autistic, or what we would consider autistic.  The people we consider as autistic rest on the extreme end of the scale.  The people we on the other end of the scale are at the opposite of things.  I don't mean in Kristin Chenoweth sort of way.   A guy like Robin Williams would be an example of the other extreme.   He got so many social cues that his brain couldn't handle all of it.  It helped him become a genius comedian, but he had addiction issues and huge depression problems.

I know I use diapers to cope with anxiety.   I have a very good who clearly has the same types of issues, but he smokes pots. He is probably more towards the HFA side of the spectrum   

 

As an adult, I've successfully maintained numerous friendships, and have zero issues with social anxiety (I adore small talk).   At the same token, I require a lot of time by myself.    I think I get a lot of social cues and it can become overwhelming.   I seriously doubt my good friends suspect that I choose to wear diaper, but it's my crutch to keep me sane.

Yeah I think you need to better explain this theory then because I don't follow.  define this scale please. Robin Willam's problem, from what I read, was that he didn't have a lot of social cues, he was an introvert who hid behind humor. Much like Jim Morrison he needed drugs and alcohol to be able to face an audience and overcome his introverted tendencies. 

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8 minutes ago, Babyqtboy said:

Yeah I think you need to better explain this theory then because I don't follow.  define this scale please. Robin Willam's problem, from what I read, was that he didn't have a lot of social cues, he was an introvert who hid behind humor. Much like Jim Morrison he needed drugs and alcohol to be able to face an audience and overcome his introverted tendencies. 

You're stuck because you seem to be reading it as though everybody has some bit of autism.   It also seems that you're getting stuck on the introvert vs. extrovert, which has nothing to do with spectrum disorders.   Spectrum disorders have nothing to do with being an introverted.  I've known many who are extroverted.   In reality, it's more of a communication disorder.  An autistic person is not able to pick up on the social information that is all around them, and have triggers that cause meltdowns.  For HFA's, they have to deal with those triggers.

My theory would include people on the other end of the spectrum.  In that case, they get so much input that they have to learn how to moderate that input.      

Think of it like a rainbow, or the visible spectrum.   The one end is the violet, and reaching down to ultra-violet.  On the other end, we reach up to the infra-red side.  But instead of being stratified like a rainbow, people tend to fall in the middle (yellow, green, blue) and the dispersion follows a bell curve.

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1 hour ago, freswith said:

I agree with this - but it might be nescessary to make the scale logarithmic.

In reality, I don't even know how you could even go about creating the scale.    It's not like there is a blood test that you take and somebody test's positive for autism.   It subject to interpretation, and the tests rely on the responses from the subject.     It's difficult to be truly scientific because it's difficult to truly understand how we are thinking and all the inputs that we have going on in a single moment.  

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3 hours ago, spark said:

You're stuck because you seem to be reading it as though everybody has some bit of autism.   It also seems that you're getting stuck on the introvert vs. extrovert, which has nothing to do with spectrum disorders.   Spectrum disorders have nothing to do with being an introverted.  I've known many who are extroverted.   In reality, it's more of a communication disorder.  An autistic person is not able to pick up on the social information that is all around them, and have triggers that cause meltdowns.  For HFA's, they have to deal with those triggers.

My theory would include people on the other end of the spectrum.  In that case, they get so much input that they have to learn how to moderate that input.      

Think of it like a rainbow, or the visible spectrum.   The one end is the violet, and reaching down to ultra-violet.  On the other end, we reach up to the infra-red side.  But instead of being stratified like a rainbow, people tend to fall in the middle (yellow, green, blue) and the dispersion follows a bell curve.

Your words, not mine " every individual falls somewhere on the spectrum". This is what I disagree with. Having a masters in psychology, I know a thing or two about mental health disorders. I am well aware of what the autism spectrum is. It is not a communication disorder, it is a developmental disorder. The spectrum accounts for both ends which is how we are able to diagnose mild- moderate- to sever, depending on how much the disorder has effected the person's development.

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On 9/30/2017 at 1:32 PM, Babyqtboy said:

Your words, not mine " every individual falls somewhere on the spectrum". This is what I disagree with. Having a masters in psychology, I know a thing or two about mental health disorders. I am well aware of what the autism spectrum is. It is not a communication disorder, it is a developmental disorder. The spectrum accounts for both ends which is how we are able to diagnose mild- moderate- to sever, depending on how much the disorder has effected the person's development.

It's not worth getting into a professional argument but how does that developmental disorder manifest itself?   And, we really don't have much of an understanding of autism at all in general, it

The big idea is that if there are autistic people, there are people who are exactly opposite.  However, that doesn't mean everything is super-easy for them either.   They have social factors that manifest themselves in a variety of mental health issues.

I've tried to explain that I'm looking at this with a broader stroke, and the spectrum that I'm talking about is much broader than the one you want to look at.   At this point, it appears to be a choice and you're more concerned with arguing with me than actually trying to understand the hypothesis.   Fine, it's not worth trying to convince you if you don't want to understand what I"m talking about in the first place.

It's just a hypothesis that I use to help me get a better understanding of the issues that people face,   I've shared with other professionals, who think that there is some merit to it,  but I'm not the person who would do the scientific study to prove.   If you go on to get your PHD, and specialize in research- go at it.   

Mind you the people doing the research aren't on the front line working with individuals on a daily basis, which is what I do.    On that level we are much more focused on what to do on a day to day basis.

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Both my Aunt and Uncle have/had their kids in Diapers full time up until 4 or 5 and then started potty training; but im going with the news company is way over exaggerating the problem for more views.

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On 10/2/2017 at 11:02 PM, spark said:

It's not worth getting into a professional argument but how does that developmental disorder manifest itself?   And, we really don't have much of an understanding of autism at all in general, it

The big idea is that if there are autistic people, there are people who are exactly opposite.  However, that doesn't mean everything is super-easy for them either.   They have social factors that manifest themselves in a variety of mental health issues.

I've tried to explain that I'm looking at this with a broader stroke, and the spectrum that I'm talking about is much broader than the one you want to look at.   At this point, it appears to be a choice and you're more concerned with arguing with me than actually trying to understand the hypothesis.   Fine, it's not worth trying to convince you if you don't want to understand what I"m talking about in the first place.

It's just a hypothesis that I use to help me get a better understanding of the issues that people face,   I've shared with other professionals, who think that there is some merit to it,  but I'm not the person who would do the scientific study to prove.   If you go on to get your PHD, and specialize in research- go at it.   

Mind you the people doing the research aren't on the front line working with individuals on a daily basis, which is what I do.    On that level we are much more focused on what to do on a day to day basis.

I am not trying to argue I am trying to explain why it extremely difficult to expand the Spectrum. By enveloping Asperger's into the autism spectrum and eliminating it as a stand alone diagnosis the APA feels 99.9 percent confident that the spectrum fully covers every individual. There is criteria that needs to be met for a diagnosis but the rating on the spectrum scale allots for the severe non functioning to the full functioning patients. 

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