Nay Sayers

[littleme5144]

I need to complain a little.  I have been a long time user of this site and every once in a while I might respond to a thread. I am definitely more of a fly on the wall when going through the forums. I don’t understand why in this specific sub forum I see sooo many people trying to convince someone who has incontinent desires that it’s a bad idea. I do understand wanting to educate someone before they make a life changing decision, but in this specific forum I don’t believe it’s the right place. I visit this forum specifically to see how others have achieved their specific incontinence desires and there is ALWAYS someone who is trying to convince someone to not go for their goals. 
 

I do believe that is someone is causing themselves physical harm to achieve their results, then yes by all means we should give our input. However if someone is just wanting to be incontinent through other ways. Why can’t we respect that and stop leaving comments on why someone shouldn’t want to achieve their desires.  

[ken2988]

I think it is because some people like me are totally incontinent due to physical issues and not because we tried to become incontinent.  As for someone else trying to become incontinent, that is perfectly fine with me.  Since I know that I will be in diapers the rest of my life, I have learned to live with it, and even have fun with it.

An example of someone who tried to change me is my mom.  Whenever I visit her she tells me to go to the bathroom so I don't need to worry about peeing.  I keep telling her that I leak all the time, so unless I go to the bathroom every 15 minutes, I could very well pee in my pants, and there are even times that I didn't even know that I peed until later.

[spark]

I find it funny when the effort to stop the desire for incontinence by sharing the obstacles to being 24/7.   It focuses on cost, the need to always have diapers on you, and the requiring changes in public.   First, I'm already 24/7, so I know exactly what it is like; especially how it affects my life.  I know how many diapers I need on a given day.  I'm fortunate that I don't have a level where I'm peeing every 15 minutes, but it's about once an hour.  It's something that I've already understood and accepted.  

However, I do have an issue with the sub-group that is encouraging posters to do something unsafe.   I think considering giving an unregulated medical professional a lot of money to perform a medical procedure that purposely harms body parts is unsafe, and not wise.  It is not something that should be encouraged in any way.   I think if that's where you are, there is something deeper going on and the permanent incontinence isn't going to help as much you think.

There are ways to train yourself to be incontinent, and it is far safer than harming yourself.    To put it simply: just wear a diaper and use it.  Eventually, your brain accepts that the diaper is where you pee and poo go and you are no longer potty trained.   By the time that happens, you've already experience life as a 24/7 diaper wearer and will know whether it is right for you.

[oznl]

1 hour ago, littleme5144 said:

I need to complain a little.  I have been a long time user of this site and every once in a while I might respond to a thread. I am definitely more of a fly on the wall when going through the forums. I don’t understand why in this specific sub forum I see sooo many people trying to convince someone who has incontinent desires that it’s a bad idea. I do understand wanting to educate someone before they make a life changing decision, but in this specific forum I don’t believe it’s the right place. I visit this forum specifically to see how others have achieved their specific incontinence desires and there is ALWAYS someone who is trying to convince someone to not go for their goals. 
 

I do believe that is someone is causing themselves physical harm to achieve their results, then yes by all means we should give our input. However if someone is just wanting to be incontinent through other ways. Why can’t we respect that and stop leaving comments on why someone shouldn’t want to achieve their desires.  

It’s an interesting question.  I’ve seen the same phenomenon.  Let me give you my (slightly nuanced) take on this.

Firstly, I’m a very strong believer in bodily autonomy.  Ultimately, it’s YOUR body and it’s your decision what you do with it.

Having said that, I think if somebody is positing their intent to undertake a venture into incontinence then that is implicitly inviting feedback.  Furthermore, there are people on here who MAY have cogent warnings about what the terrain looks like where you plan to go and that might be something that you’d want to consider.

I think that advice should be moderated to the course of action being considered.

If somebody wants to “untrain” by wearing diapers 24/7 then I say “go for it!”  It’s going to take ages (years) and if it’s not for you, you’re going to work that out for yourself along the way fairly soon and turn back long before any physiological bridges are burned.  If you DON’T, then you got what you truly wanted and that’s a win.

If somebody has found a low cost surgeon in Elbonia and, at the ripe old age of 18, decides to spend the inheritance they just got from their Grandmother to “make shit happen” (pun intended), then there’s a strong argument for some advice to be provided.  (The counterpoint to this is if that somebody is a mature adult and has lived the 24/7 thing long enough to know this IS truly what they want and they’re ok with Elbonian surgery standard, well, then I think “bodily autonomy” rule applies).  You've pretty much made the same point with your "physical harm" comment although what is "harm" and what is a "body hack" can vary according to frame of reference.

I think one of the complicating factors here though is frequently enough, “advice” is presented as “abuse” and that’s NOT ok.  There are a few (and if you’re super lucky, they’ll hone in on your post like flies to a carcass) who seem to be on some kind of social-capital-bonfire mission to barge into this forum and tell people in it how dumb they are for admitting an objective the discussion of which is the whole point of the forum!  Nobody seems to be able to stop them.  The best that can be done is to block them and move on.

Don’t throw the metaphorical baby out with the bathwater though.  There could be good insight here from people who have gone before you who may know.  Pilots radio ahead to find out about the weather at their destination.

[spark]

3 hours ago, oznl said:

I think one of the complicating factors here though is frequently enough, “advice” is presented as “abuse” and that’s NOT ok.  There are a few (and if you’re super lucky, they’ll hone in on your post like flies to a carcass) who seem to be on some kind of social-capital-bonfire mission to barge into this forum and tell people in it how dumb they are for admitting an objective the discussion of which is the whole point of the forum!  Nobody seems to be able to stop them.  The best that can be done is to block them and move on.

There is another diaper forum that has a reputation for being autocratic.  I haven't been there in a long time, but the site would respond with a "Be careful what you wish for" response.  The culture of the site was one that even the desire to be unpotty-trained was frowned upon.  People were warned that it is irreversible and permanent, which isn't backed by data and I think is absurd.

I've not noticed that much here, but I think we go too far in the opposite direction.    I've been personally because I do very strongly against encouraging self-harm.  I was called intolerant because I didn't accept that it was ingrained and that they needed to be incontinent.  I chose not to respond to a recent post, although you know which one I'm talking about with my previous response.

[oznl]

45 minutes ago, spark said:

The culture of the site was one that even the desire to be potty-trained was frowned upon.

Did you mean unpotty-trained?  I suspect otherwise folks would be forming a queue 🤣

46 minutes ago, spark said:

 I've been personally because I do very strongly against encouraging self-harm.  I was called intolerant because I didn't accept that it was ingrained and that they needed to be incontinent.

And I suspect you'd agree that having a differing viewpoint and being intolerant aren't the same thing.  The "intolerant" bit starts when we stray into behaviors designed to suppress the manifestation of that thing we don't agree with.  Having said that, I'd say on the other side of THAT debate there are some whose fragility is such that ANY view dissenting from their own is discounted to being "intolerant" (or, it's fashionable cousin, "offensive").  This response of course fails to engage with the contrary idea and so the discussion (if it continues) tends to descend into farce fairly quickly.

For my part, I *do* think it can be ingrained, like gender dysphoria, but that doesn't mean I'm disinterested in evidenced argument from others against that position.

Anyway, I suspect we're largely in agreement anyway because I DO think there is a place for considered advice challenging incontinence desires but ultimately, I would contend that incontinence desires are sometimes real, intractable and we not only could but arguably should attempt to satiate them.  In that scenario, we should step back and let that other person live their life.

I'm still trying to figure out where I sit on that spectrum btw 😆

[DAQ]

2 hours ago, spark said:

I find it funny when the effort to stop the desire for incontinence by sharing the obstacles to being 24/7.   It focuses on cost, the need to always have diapers on you, and the requiring changes in public.   First, I'm already 24/7, so I know exactly what it is like; especially how it affects my life.  I know how many diapers I need on a given day.  I'm fortunate that I don't have a level where I'm peeing every 15 minutes, but it's about once an hour.  It's something that I've already understood and accepted.  

However, I do have an issue with the sub-group that is encouraging posters to do something unsafe.   I think considering giving an unregulated medical professional a lot of money to perform a medical procedure that purposely harms body parts is unsafe, and not wise.  It is not something that should be encouraged in any way.   I think if that's where you are, there is something deeper going on and the permanent incontinence isn't going to help as much you think.

There are ways to train yourself to be incontinent, and it is far safer than harming yourself.    To put it simply: just wear a diaper and use it.  Eventually, your brain accepts that the diaper is where you pee and poo go and you are no longer potty trained.   By the time that happens, you've already experience life as a 24/7 diaper wearer and will know whether it is right for you.

Going to disagree as someone who is seriously considering doing this very thing. No one is encouraging anyone to do anything. No one said, "hey you, you need to do this" or "you should totally do this". They posted about their own objectives and goals as well as how they were going to achieve them. Frankly surgery, even ones performed in areas that are not state of the art or what not is still far less dangerous than some of the things I have seen people do around here. Extended open catheter use, home made stents, deliberately causing damage to the bladder and urinary tract. I have seen posts about UTIs, Urethral bleeding that lasted days, ER visits to extract stents that migrated into the bladder. None of this is normal and in any corner of the internet that was dedicated to wearing diapers and more specifically incontinence itself you would be told to immediately seek psychiatric care.

Lets be clear within this niche part of the community there are still sub groups. There are people here fantasizing about becoming incontinent (not calling you guys out. Keep doing you!), people who are entertaining the idea, people who are actively seeking non destructive methods, and others who do not feel complete unless they are physically unable to ever hold urine again.

Anyone who is actively seeking this has a condition defined by the DSM5 and being redefined in recent years. DSM5 calls it BIID, Body Identity Integrity Disorder and some linking it more recently to a more broad Body Identity Dysmorphia. Go look it up. Look at the treatments. There are ways to lessen the "symptoms" there is no cure. Because it is not something to be cured frankly. The people who do not feel whole by being whole are beyond your judgement or "help". And chastising anyone for posting their experience while actively addressing any questions and concerns someone has is so contrary to this forum in my opinion.

Going to get less ranty and more personal here. I have been wearing 24/7 for 4 years. FOUR YEARS, with out a single drop of urine leaving my body without me struggling to get it out. Not everyone can be trained to use a diaper by passive use or even active training. After months of therapy I am fairly certain that my desire for incontinence stems from potty training being beaten into me while simultaneously causing trauma every time I had an "accident".

This desire for incontinence coupled with the world's most stubborn bladder has lead to a host of mental health problems. Most of which stem from feeling like a failure for not being able to do one of the few intrinsically motivated goals I have ever had. This lead to clinical depression diagnosis. I have been left with this need for incontinence without any prospect of success. I can honestly say that the post you won't mention but everyone knows you are talking about has given me hope. More interestingly because I have a nuclear option it has allowed my subconscious to address the very real possibility of incontinence and work to resolve some of those issues.

Also back up for the advocacy part for a second. The procedure that must not be named is a cosmetic/optional procedure that will not be covered by any insurance. Anyone that lives in the US lives in a dystopian hell hole that 60% of people can't afford a single emergency with out significant financial stress. The $25,000 barrier to entry will dissuade all but the most serious inquiries and even out of serious inquiries it is still a HUGE financial burden. I consider myself extremely lucky financially and career wise and I am still scratching my head at how to come up with the deposit, let alone surgical costs.

[spark]

1 hour ago, oznl said:

Did you mean unpotty-trained?  I suspect otherwise folks would be forming a queue 🤣

Stupid AI- thinking I meant Potty-trained.    For me, being Potty-trained was just wrong and I held off as long as I could and took it back the first chance I got.

1 hour ago, oznl said:

Anyway, I suspect we're largely in agreement anyway because I DO think there is a place for considered advice challenging incontinence desires but ultimately, I would contend that incontinence desires are sometimes real, intractable and we not only could but arguably should attempt to satiate them.  In that scenario, we should step back and let that other person live their life.

You and I have shared our journey for a while, and I think a live conversation between the two of us would be very interesting.   I think I've refined what I true desires over the last few years.  Rather than being incontinent, and completely unable to control my bladder, I want to be non-potty-trained.    FTR-I've been mostly 24/7 since 2018?  I still know when I pee, even at night (maybe).  I can still use the toilet, but I don't.  I don't let my diaper get that wet at work because I don't want to risk a leak.  But I've started using boosters to make sure I don't leak.

The desire to use a diaper is very strong with me.  This is something that I've wanted my entire adult life.    But I don't believe the desire is to be incontinent, but to be non potty-trained. 

33 minutes ago, DAQ said:

Going to disagree as someone who is seriously considering doing this very thing. No one is encouraging anyone to do anything. No one said, "hey you, you need to do this" or "you should totally do this". They posted about their own objectives and goals as well as how they were going to achieve them. Frankly surgery, even ones performed in areas that are not state of the art or what not is still far less dangerous than some of the things I have seen people do around here. Extended open catheter use, home made stents, deliberately causing damage to the bladder and urinary tract. I have seen posts about UTIs, Urethral bleeding that lasted days, ER visits to extract stents that migrated into the bladder. None of this is normal and in any corner of the internet that was dedicated to wearing diapers and more specifically incontinence itself you would be told to immediately seek psychiatric care.

Lets be clear within this niche part of the community there are still sub groups. There are people here fantasizing about becoming incontinent (not calling you guys out. Keep doing you!), people who are entertaining the idea, people who are actively seeking non destructive methods, and others who do not feel complete unless they are physically unable to ever hold urine again.

Anyone who is actively seeking this has a condition defined by the DSM5 and being redefined in recent years. DSM5 calls it BIID, Body Identity Integrity Disorder and some linking it more recently to a more broad Body Identity Dysmorphia. Go look it up. Look at the treatments. There are ways to lessen the "symptoms" there is no cure. Because it is not something to be cured frankly. The people who do not feel whole by being whole are beyond your judgement or "help". And chastising anyone for posting their experience while actively addressing any questions and concerns someone has is so contrary to this forum in my opinion.

Going to get less ranty and more personal here. I have been wearing 24/7 for 4 years. FOUR YEARS, with out a single drop of urine leaving my body without me struggling to get it out. Not everyone can be trained to use a diaper by passive use or even active training. After months of therapy I am fairly certain that my desire for incontinence stems from potty training being beaten into me while simultaneously causing trauma every time I had an "accident".

This desire for incontinence coupled with the world's most stubborn bladder has lead to a host of mental health problems. Most of which stem from feeling like a failure for not being able to do one of the few intrinsically motivated goals I have ever had. This lead to clinical depression diagnosis. I have been left with this need for incontinence without any prospect of success. I can honestly say that the post you won't mention but everyone knows you are talking about has given me hope. More interestingly because I have a nuclear option it has allowed my subconscious to address the very real possibility of incontinence and work to resolve some of those issues.

Also back up for the advocacy part for a second. The procedure that must not be named is a cosmetic/optional procedure that will not be covered by any insurance. Anyone that lives in the US lives in a dystopian hell hole that 60% of people can't afford a single emergency with out significant financial stress. The $25,000 barrier to entry will dissuade all but the most serious inquiries and even out of serious inquiries it is still a HUGE financial burden. I consider myself extremely lucky financially and career wise and I am still scratching my head at how to come up with the deposit, let alone surgical costs.

I get what you're saying because I was right there with you when I was 34, except I wasn't 24/7.  I did consider surgeries, but I didn't have the money and it scared me.  In my case, and that might not be your case- I wanted to justify my desire to be in diapers.  TBH, the older you get, the less you give an F about what other people think. I no longer need to justify that desire, but I did in my 30's.

I don't mean to call you out, but I don't understand how you can say that you gone 24/7 and every drop as been a struggle.   I  have put a lot of pee into the toilet over the last 4 years, but 90% has been in a diaper.  Sometimes it is easier, but sometimes I need to think about it.     That's with me peeing in the toilet when I know I can and have to.

[Enthusi]

We in the ABDL community tend to put incontinence on a pedestal like it’s some sort of title that is bestowed on a select few people.  Yeah I agree that it’s not a good look to fetishize a medical condition that is highly stigmatizing to people who don’t enjoy it.  But, for many of us, it’s not just a fetish.  I genuinely believe my potty training was a mistake.   
 

I encourage people interested in 24/7 lifestyle or even untraining to try it.  The vast majority of people will get exhausted by the lifestyle after a few weeks when the novelty wears off and it starts feeling restrictive. That totally fine.  They tried something new and learned something about themselves and their limits. Then there are the others who gain confidence and have even less desire to go back.  Thats fine too.   The point is, either way it doesn’t matter what I, or anyone say.  
 

So yeah, incontinence is a symptom and not a diagnosis.  It sucks for most people, though some of us feel more complete by being diaper dependent. It’s all good. 

[Mixymagic]

Ok, like, I'm newish here (posting and not lurking from time to time at least), and I kinda understand both arguments...I mean, not completely and I'm probably biased towards one side vs the other, but I can sorta see where people come from.

Like, I can't speak for the people that are very against someone going about becoming unable to use the toilet via some method or other, but I assume, if maybe they suffer from it daily and maybe they have learned to live with it (especially if they are on this forum), but maybe they still see it not as something one should strive for, but something they didn't choose and had to learn, maybe force themselves to learn, how to cope and accept that.  So when they see someone do something they had to struggle to accept happened to them, maybe they just kinda post from the place of trying to get the person to understand how they feel, someone who had no choice in the matter.  They may think the person expressing a desire to become incontinent in some way is acting on a fantasy version of incontinence, in their excited desire to "need" protection, and maybe they assume , whether rightly or wrongly, that the individual hasn't thought things out enough.  Like the little girl (or boy) who wants to marry a princess or prince and maybe never grows out of that to some degree and assumes a fantasy storybook version of a romantic partner is just gonna be perfect and sweep them off their feet and thus can never find someone who meets those standards.

It's not the same thing, but similar in certain ways, and maybe those that post negatively are coming at it like that.  Maybe they don't understand why someone would WANT what they would give so much to not have. 

Now, there are people I've seen that, like, are more educational and kinder about it and people that are just mean and insulting.  The later I don't agree with (in any scenario, not just this one.  Shaming, anger, and vitriol are not necessary.  I feel like people online, just looking at text, forget there is a real person behind that text that can really be hurt by these sorts of responses...and it's important to realize some may not be able to shake that kinda negative response off as well as others can).  The former, though, I can sorta understand.

That being said, I do agree with some of the above responses that bodily autonomy is, or should be at least, a right everyone has.  If it isn't hurting other people and the person makes that choice without being coerced, with sound mind and informed consent, then I see no reason why anyone else should care.  Also, I've learned that people don't think the same way.  You might think this should be obvious to anyone, and to some extent, I mean yeah, but in general, even very basic ways of thinking can be different from person to person.  I used to assume everyone's brain worked more or less like mine.  I mean, we are all humans, right?  Alas, I've discovered, through people telling me as such, and looking at the ways I am and think about things, that I was a little dumb in thinking that.  I think it was my own brain's attempt to avoid admitting something that may be true about myself, but that's another story.

So all of that to say, yes, I think some people would feel happier, more whole, more at peace with themselves if they had some flavor of incontinence, whether it be bedwetting, occasional accidents, a weaker bladder, a weaker everything, or full on incontinence at all times. 

I mean, for me, I've struggled with accepting my little side and that I do regress and have those childish, "immature" tendencies.  I used to mentally try to block it out, be "normal" at all times, even when alone, but I was denying a part of myself, honestly probably the BEST parts of myself, as my little self embodies so many positive things.  And I, in turn, kinda feel happier, sunnier, more at peace when I take some of those traits little me has and "fully embrace" them so to speak.  And for me, bedwetting is one of them I think.  So I'm trying to do that now.  Rather than be stressed, get fitful, irregular sleep, wake up with painfully full bladder, I'd much rather regress a bit at bedtime, snuggle up in my jammies and whatever soft plushies I want to hug that night, in soft comfy diaper cause I "know" I will wet, and wake up after having slept great all through the night and wetting in my sleep.

I think that's healthier for me.  I'd never tell everyone that this is for them and they need to try it. I think every individual deserves the right to choose what is best for them, and even if that thing is not for someone else, I think their choice should at least be respected and not shamed or ridiculed or put down.  You don't know that person, thus you cannot judge their decisions from what they post online.  Obviously, that in not their whole selves, just part of it. 

I think the world would be better with more love and less hate.  More acceptance and less rejection.  People seem to disagree, what with the way the world is heading, but I honestly and truly don't get that and think it is extraordinarily sad.  If it makes someone happy and is doing no harm to others, respect their choice, even if you don't understand it.  That's all.  Let the negatives your experiences put on that choice fade away, because again, you are not anyone else but you and really can't understand what that other person may be feeling.

My 2 cents.

[rusty pins]

21 hours ago, littleme5144 said:

I need to complain a little.  I have been a long time user of this site and every once in a while I might respond to a thread. I am definitely more of a fly on the wall when going through the forums. I don’t understand why in this specific sub forum I see sooo many people trying to convince someone who has incontinent desires that it’s a bad idea. I do understand wanting to educate someone before they make a life changing decision, but in this specific forum I don’t believe it’s the right place. I visit this forum specifically to see how others have achieved their specific incontinence desires and there is ALWAYS someone who is trying to convince someone to not go for their goals. 
 

I do believe that is someone is causing themselves physical harm to achieve their results, then yes by all means we should give our input. However if someone is just wanting to be incontinent through other ways. Why can’t we respect that and stop leaving comments on why someone shouldn’t want to achieve their desires.  

So true.  Personally I don't see the thrill in becoming incontinent with absolutely no choice but to be in diapers the rest of your life, especially at a young age, teens and 20's.  Hormones are raging at that age.  I do always suggest with the young people in their 20's to think it through, future jobs, relationships, playing sports, running for office as well as the cost of wearing diapers for the next 60 years, three times longer than they have already lived.  It is an important decision to think through as it will affect the rest of their life.

With that said, suggesting they really think it through is one thing.  Trying to convince them not to do it is another thing.  If that's what they want and desire, go for it!  This is their forum and we really have no right here to try and convince people not to do it.  Likewise, for people who post in the Incontinent Medical forum, people have no right at all to slam people for trying things other than diapers to help with actual incontinence such as condom catheters and leg bags, medications, even surgeries to help them with their incontinence or other means.   Just because most people here like and want to wear diapers for one reason or another, many people who are actually incontinent may want other option besides wearing diapers.  That is their forum just like Incontinent Desires is for the people who want to become incontinent.  No one has the right in the Incontinence Medical forum to convince those people to stop looking for alternatives for their incontinence telling them to just wear diapers instead.  It works both ways here.

[superabsorbantpolymer]

I personally don't plan on getting a surgery but I definitely understand those who are doing it. I want to be incontinent but surgery for me is for life or body part saving  treatments. I am happy letting things take their natural course through long term behavior modification and habituation, as well as physiological changes due to differences in usage patterns (reduced bladder capacity/hardening, sphincter atrophy). I am fairly certain if I continue to commit to 24/7.

 

I do wonder though, hypothetically if you had the option of a surgery to treat a medical problem but a side effect of surgery may be incontinence, would that be a reason you wouldn't get the surgery? That's not the same as opting to get surgery specifically to get incontinence but personally I might see that as a personal bonus of the surgery. 

[DAQ]

On 1/12/2024 at 12:06 AM, spark said:

I don't mean to call you out, but I don't understand how you can say that you gone 24/7 and every drop as been a struggle.   I  have put a lot of pee into the toilet over the last 4 years, but 90% has been in a diaper.  Sometimes it is easier, but sometimes I need to think about it.     That's with me peeing in the toilet when I know I can and have to.

Are you doubting my experience or that I am lying? I don't know why I can't easily pee in a diaper. Like I said in my post, my best working theory is that I was traumatized by potty training (I have not heard good stories) and several high profile accidents as a kid and I was re-traumatizing myself every time I peed or started losing any modicum of control. So it didn't matter how much I consciously wanted to lose control. The thought terrified me uncounciously

[jeremy12312]

Sorry for the derail here, but the thread title reminds me of one of the newspaper headlines in a very old version of SimCity. 

“Naysayers say “Nay!”

[spark]

9 hours ago, DAQ said:

Are you doubting my experience or that I am lying? I don't know why I can't easily pee in a diaper. Like I said in my post, my best working theory is that I was traumatized by potty training (I have not heard good stories) and several high profile accidents as a kid and I was re-traumatizing myself every time I peed or started losing any modicum of control. So it didn't matter how much I consciously wanted to lose control. The thought terrified me uncounciously

It begs the question what will happen to you mentally when you have accidents randomly with no control?   That subconscious part of your body is still there.  The trauma is still there, and you will feel it when you wet yourself.  

What you're telling me is that you've never peed in the toilet for four years, and yet every time you've struggled to pee.   FTR- it was a struggle when I tried to use makeshift diapers.  Once I accepted that my diaper wouldn't leak, it gradually got easier.  While I was using diapers intermittently, I had to pre-wet the diaper and it was only easy when I was standing.   

I don't know how somebody can struggle to urinate every single time for four years without seeking help, however, I don't think self-harm is the answer.  I believe any doctor willing to perform these types of surgeries is unethical, and I have questions about going to the facilities that are willing to perform such surgeries.  Those surgeries would be extremely risky, and not performed often.   On top of that, you still aren't guaranteed the outcome you desire.   Even if the surgery is successful and you are incontinent, it might not be what you thought it would be.   

I'm just some random dude on the internet, who happens to share your desire to pee in diapers.  Maybe mine is more akin to becoming unpotty-trained, which I don't think is the same thing as being incontinent.  In my case, I can use the potty, but I choose not to.   I do poop in the potty because poo is yucky (little kid talk is intentional there).  I also don't react to my wet diapers and need an adult to make sure I don't stay in one.  However, that adult is also me.  You don't need my permission to do it, and it doesn't matter whether I believe you or not.  My advice for people planning to pay $20+K for a risky invasive surgery that is designed to harm your body is to include an independent mental health professional on your team.

[DAQ]

8 hours ago, spark said:

It begs the question what will happen to you mentally when you have accidents randomly with no control?   That subconscious part of your body is still there.  The trauma is still there, and you will feel it when you wet yourself. 

Ya, you're right. I suspect that had I gone through with the surgery without addressing any of these past traumas I would have been pretty miserable. Assuming I would have had the courage and self determination to do it in the first place.

8 hours ago, spark said:

What you're telling me is that you've never peed in the toilet for four years, and yet every time you've struggled to pee.   FTR- it was a struggle when I tried to use makeshift diapers.  Once I accepted that my diaper wouldn't leak, it gradually got easier.  While I was using diapers intermittently, I had to pre-wet the diaper and it was only easy when I was standing.  

I didn't say I haven't peed in a toilet for four years. I have worn 98% of the time for the last four years and only ever not used a toilet for pee when I threw my hands up in the air in frustration and say "Fine, if I can't be incontinent, I'll just be "normal". And yes, after four years, I don't wet the bed, I don't leak and dribble, I can't even just relax, let go, and pee.

8 hours ago, spark said:

I don't know how somebody can struggle to urinate every single time for four years without seeking help, however, I don't think self-harm is the answer.  I believe any doctor willing to perform these types of surgeries is unethical, and I have questions about going to the facilities that are willing to perform such surgeries.  Those surgeries would be extremely risky, and not performed often.   On top of that, you still aren't guaranteed the outcome you desire.   Even if the surgery is successful and you are incontinent, it might not be what you thought it would be.  

Frankly it didn't occur to me until last year sometime that I had made no progress or if anything worse now than when I started. It has only been in the last few months after starting therapy that I started to pull on this string and how it is all connected.

I find it pretty funny calling a surgical procedure self harm. If I wanted to transition to female, get a tattoo, or implants of some kind would that be self harm? I think anyone from the outside looking in would call any way of becoming incontinent self harm. Surgeries performed anywhere are not without risks and sterile surgical environments are not that hard even in horribly dangerous countries like Mexico that scores in the top third of healthcare systems around the world right after .... let me check my notes, 2 spots below the US. There are inflection points in life. A before and after and no one can tell you how the after really is. They can describe it but so many things in life have to be experienced to know. I may regret it but I would regret more not trying.

 

8 hours ago, spark said:

I'm just some random dude on the internet, who happens to share your desire to pee in diapers.  Maybe mine is more akin to becoming unpotty-trained, which I don't think is the same thing as being incontinent.  In my case, I can use the potty, but I choose not to.   I do poop in the potty because poo is yucky (little kid talk is intentional there).  I also don't react to my wet diapers and need an adult to make sure I don't stay in one.  However, that adult is also me.  You don't need my permission to do it, and it doesn't matter whether I believe you or not.  My advice for people planning to pay $20+K for a risky invasive surgery that is designed to harm your body is to include an independent mental health professional on your team.

Frankly I don't care how I become incontinent. I have tried unpotty training for four years, that option is out. I am trying hypnosis nowto work on my mental blocks and direct suggestions. Also, I have mentioned therapy at least twice. I have a mental health professional. I told her on my third visit because I knew we couldn't even begin to discuss the problems I was having without addressing this. I thought it would take weeks or months to get a letter of recommendation for full incontinence but I think she could see this a firmly held belief and causing mental anguish.

[oznl]

37 minutes ago, DAQ said:

Ya, you're right. I suspect that had I gone through with the surgery without addressing any of these past traumas I would have been pretty miserable. Assuming I would have had the courage and self determination to do it in the first place.

Not that I'm in a position to recommend (I had one put in for a medical procedure and hated it) but have you ever tried catheterising yourself?  I guess that's one way to try before you buy if your sphincter refuses to play ball.  Whilst I was indeed, absolutely incontinent catheterised, my stupid bladder would not stop spasming which kept me awake (that and everything else that goes on in an ICU whilst they tell you to "get some rest" 🤣)

On 1/12/2024 at 1:54 PM, spark said:

 I've been personally because I do very strongly against encouraging self-harm. 

As others (including @DAQ ) have pointed out, I don't automatically categorise an intervention of this type as "self harm".  Sure, a DIY effort with a corkscrew and a flexible drill extension would tick the "self harm" box but we are talking surgery here, undertaken by surgeons.  I would see this kind of work to have some similarities to SRS which in this day and age is far from self-harm but rather an effective therapy for a dysphoria.

[DAQ]

4 minutes ago, oznl said:

Not that I'm in a position to recommend (I had one put in for a medical procedure and hated it) but have you ever tried catheterising yourself?  I guess that's one way to try before you buy if your sphincter refuses to play ball.  Whilst I was indeed, absolutely incontinent catheterised, my stupid bladder would not stop spasming which kept me awake (that and everything else that goes on in an ICU whilst they tell you to "get some rest" 🤣)

I have. And I tried stents when I was younger. I stopped the stents when one of them got stuck and I thought I was on the way to the ER but luckily it came out after a half hour of gentle repositioning and pulling. 

 

I tried catheters a few times and found them unbearable after a short time. Don't know if I had the wrong size, wrong type or what not but the couple times I got them to work was.... blissful. I stopped trying them after I read somewhere that they can cause scarring in the urethra and make it even harder to pee. It's funny, looking at a surgery to permanently make me incontinent and the thing I am worried about most is a 5 day stint with a cath🤣

[spark]

39 minutes ago, DAQ said:

Ya, you're right. I suspect that had I gone through with the surgery without addressing any of these past traumas I would have been pretty miserable. Assuming I would have had the courage and self determination to do it in the first place.

When I read it back, you said that every single drop has been a struggle, and not that every single drop has been in a diaper.  I read it that, so that's on me.  That makes a lot more sense.

I firmly believe that incontinence-seeking surgery is self-harm because the outcome is a body that doesn't function as it should.  The body's hardware is changed and no longer retains urine.   Plastic surgery and tattoos do not change the way the body operates.   Even with SRS, the body is still doing the job it was designed to do.   An extreme example would be somebody with amputation dysphoria who seeks to have their leg amputated, which does happen.  I would assert and would hope most would agree, that amputating a healthy leg is self-harm.   

I also have a lot of medical professionals in my family and know what I expect from a doctor.  The surgeries we've mentioned have loads and loads of research and have been performed many times.   We're talking about an unproven surgery that is rarely performed.  I don't want somebody performing a pioneering surgery on me unless I'm going to die otherwise.   I also have medical professionals in my family, so I know what I want with a doctor.  I'm not letting anybody cut into me that I don't trust.  I don't trust a doctor who would perform a procedure that hurts a body's function and require them to defend their decisions.

BTW- I have a broader definition of self-harm than most.  I spend my professional life trying to support anxiety-prone teenagers who hate school and need to endure another few years of it.  I'm always conscious of cutting, or suicide idolation.   I consider school refusal to be self-harm, however, I don't think herbal self-medication is.

I'm wondering if you and I are in a similar place with bladder control, but I'm happy where I'm at and you're not.  FTR, we come from very different places with our potty training experience.  I don't remember much of my experience other than I peed my pants a lot.  I don't remember my mom getting mad at me, but I do think she resorted to diapers on occasion.   Somewhere around my fifth birthday I just stopped peeing my pants.  That could be why I'm happy where I am now.   For instance, I've wet my diaper probably 8 times today, and it's wet.  I'm not ready to change it, but I bet a caregiver would.    But I know every single time that I pee, and I still know that I'm going to pee.   I don't call it a struggle, but I know I'm about to pee.   If I want to go to the bathroom, I can, but I'm not.   

 

[eatenbywo1ves]

Absolute moron chiming in here, has anyone considered just ignoring things that have no effect on anyone besides the parties involved? Lets focus on what we all have in common guys!

[DAQ]

11 hours ago, spark said:

I firmly believe that incontinence-seeking surgery is self-harm because the outcome is a body that doesn't function as it should.  The body's hardware is changed and no longer retains urine.   Plastic surgery and tattoos do not change the way the body operates.   Even with SRS, the body is still doing the job it was designed to do.   An extreme example would be somebody with amputation dysphoria who seeks to have their leg amputated, which does happen.  I would assert and would hope most would agree, that amputating a healthy leg is self-harm.   

I also have a lot of medical professionals in my family and know what I expect from a doctor.  The surgeries we've mentioned have loads and loads of research and have been performed many times.   We're talking about an unproven surgery that is rarely performed.  I don't want somebody performing a pioneering surgery on me unless I'm going to die otherwise.   I also have medical professionals in my family, so I know what I want with a doctor.  I'm not letting anybody cut into me that I don't trust.  I don't trust a doctor who would perform a procedure that hurts a body's function and require them to defend their decisions.

I'm wondering if you and I are in a similar place with bladder control, but I'm happy where I'm at and you're not.  FTR, we come from very different places with our potty training experience.  I don't remember much of my experience other than I peed my pants a lot.  I don't remember my mom getting mad at me, but I do think she resorted to diapers on occasion.   Somewhere around my fifth birthday I just stopped peeing my pants.  That could be why I'm happy where I am now.   For instance, I've wet my diaper probably 8 times today, and it's wet.  I'm not ready to change it, but I bet a caregiver would.    But I know every single time that I pee, and I still know that I'm going to pee.   I don't call it a struggle, but I know I'm about to pee.   If I want to go to the bathroom, I can, but I'm not.  

So while I personally do not want to amputate my own leg. I would be a hypocrite if I called that self harm. I would call it self harm if they did what so many people that have BIID that is centered around an extremity do and resort to extreme trauma. When I was doing research into it after learned the name of the condition I read stories of people resorting to power tools or laying an arm or leg onto train tracks. I think a clean amputation in a surgical room is preferable. And much the same way I am doing it, with a consultation with a psychiatric professional and thoroughly discussing it, who am I to judge? And if the doctor who will perform the surgery for you does not require the signoff and you are 100% sure then go for it. Bodily autonomy is central tenet of a free society.

I think by definition SRS renders the body incapable of the job it was designed to do. And definitely the "body's hardware" is changed and no longer serves the function it was "designed" for. Our sole function biologically is to reproduce. If nothing else being an ABDL and having incontinence needs/desires has been a humbling factor in my life. Who am I to judge people on their wants and needs.

The surgery is not unproven and it is not rarely performed. It is rarely performed for this purpose and rarely together. Transurethral resection of the bladder neck and Transurethral resection of the prostate are performed on people who have problems releasing urine for one reason or another. They are researched procedures that have very real therapeutic benefits. Now both of these surgeries carry the risk of incontinence when performed with out the intent for incontinence. I will grant you that I can not find any information regarding re-sectioning of the sphincter external.

I have been trying to figure out what I have found frustrating about your posts. And the best I can figure is that I feel you think that you somehow have the morale high ground by wanting to or becoming incontinent through untraining vs surgical means. At a certain point the results are the same. After some time the muscles all atrophy to a point where they are completely unusable and no longer do the job they were designed to do. Kaliborio has a blog where they discuss retraining after a period of time after incontinence is achieved. It is a fairly small window and sometimes completely unstoppable once a certain threshold is reached. The muscles/nerves have atrophied and that person is incontinent for life. Vs surgery all the muscles are just rendered useless in a procedure.

I feel like you are splitting hairs. If you took two people not part of this community and told them two people in from of them are both incontinent, but one had surgery and the other's muscles atrophied with disuse by choice do you think that they would make some sort of distinction? Same outcome, different catalyst. If that same person who wanted to amputate a leg put it in a cast to render it completely useless for a period of 2 or 3 years, their muscles would atrophy and at some point the nerves will as well. A very similar outcome with out the knife.

[superabsorbantpolymer]

Seeing as the operation is performed on people with urinary retention/overflow incontinence, I wonder how feasible it would be to get a less than competent urologist to sign off on that diagnosis and get the same operation legitimately. Once you're "in the system" as a urological patient, diapers are expected and further revisions to your resection to increase flow would probably be forthcoming. Just a thought...

[spark]

27 minutes ago, superabsorbantpolymer said:

Seeing as the operation is performed on people with urinary retention/overflow incontinence, I wonder how feasible it would be to get a less than competent urologist to sign off on that diagnosis and get the same operation legitimately. Once you're "in the system" as a urological patient, diapers are expected and further revisions to your resection to increase flow would probably be forthcoming. Just a thought...

My advice is don't have less-than-competent surgeons cut into you.  It's just not a good idea.

[DAQ]

5 hours ago, superabsorbantpolymer said:

Seeing as the operation is performed on people with urinary retention/overflow incontinence, I wonder how feasible it would be to get a less than competent urologist to sign off on that diagnosis and get the same operation legitimately. Once you're "in the system" as a urological patient, diapers are expected and further revisions to your resection to increase flow would probably be forthcoming. Just a thought...

You would probably be better off finding a psychiatric professional to acknowledge that you are psychologically incontinent and that it is safe and beneficial for you to seek incontinence and then find a doctor to perform the surgery. I have read many a story of urologists desperate to preserve "normal" function against the wishes or autonomy of a patient who was suffering from something like urge incontinence which is much harder to deal with than drip incontinence. Would probably be trivial to find a plastic surgeon willing and capable of doing it though.

[Hannah YMS]

Just wanted to chime in here.

@spark: I may not be at the same coordinates on the ocean as @DAQ, but I feel we're on the same cruise liner. I've been "untraining" for over 3 years now, and the most I have to show for it is some post void dribble. If I pee in the toilet, 95% of the time I'm going to leak into whatever pants I'm wearing.

I've been reading @DAQ's complaints for years on this subforum and I struggle similarly. Sometimes I have a fast and loose bladder (I would consider those to be good days) but I'm struggling most of the time with days like today: It takes significant concentration, relaxation, the "Breath Holding Technique", and mental and physical gymnastics for me to be able to "easily" pee in my diaper. I can remain relaxed all damn day and what I find is that my bladder just doesn't want to cooperate with my mind when I "tell it" to release. I have to generally wait until my need to urinate is just too uncomfortable before I release the eventual torrential flood.

In the beginning of my untraining days it was a bit easier, but as time goes on I find that no matter what, I can't release low volumes with frequent voids -- by contrast it's usually flood after flood (and many, many leaks due to said floods). In fact, I'm sitting here, pelvic floor relaxed, double diapered, not only ready but WILLING to just let the gates open, but as I type this my bladder is getting full and no matter how much I try to convince my bladder to contract, it just doesn't.

So I have to end up standing, sometimes for 15-20 minutes, just mentally playing the "just pee already, damnit!" game with my bladder and hoping gravity will do it's job and help me pee. I've stood up for up to an hour at times, watching a television show with my wife, just trying to pee! It's incredibly annoying and frustrating.

I feel like I understand @DAQ's struggle quite well. The mental health problems I've endured over the years due to my continence dysphoria (i.e., just being depressed at the fact that I can't untrain like everyone else), I would argue, causes more harm in the long run than the "surgery-is-self-harm" position that you hold, @spark. In fact, I am among the lucky few who screwed up a stent design once and had to go to the ER on an Easter Sunday (and a very long, 10 hour wait) to get said stent removed. I was, and still am, desperate for some relief and after 3 years, it's no wonder I still experiment with stents and catheters. Sometimes I say UTI be damned and just put in a catheter for a few blissful days of no bladder discomfort, euphoric that I'm actually not in control of my bladder for the cherished 2 to 3 days I keep the catheter in before paranoia sets in about UTIs and then feeling sad that once my catheter comes out, it'll be back to the same old grind.

And that forum post you-must-not-mention? Well, the doctor who performed the surgery on the two DD members who talked about their progress is a Board Certified Urologist trained right here in the USA. Yes, he's in Mexico, but before you criticize too harshly, have a look at some of the testimonials by people who've had their surgeries performed by that doctor. In one of those testimonials, one patient had this to say (take it with a grain of salt, of course, but...):

Quote

Secondly, I would like to inform the readers that I don’t know what you may have heard about hospitals anywhere, but I can tell you that the hospital in which I was operated on, CHG Hospitals, was the cleanest hospital I have ever seen in my life, and I want you t o know that I was a paramedic and saw a lot of things. I hate to admit it, but the States don’t have anything on this hospital. I have seen band-aids on the floor in hospitals in the US, and I have even seen doctors pick band-aids up from the floor after they had dropped them and use them. This hospital was so clean, I could put eyeliner on in the reflection of the floor. I could even eat out of the toilet.

The notion that any hospital outside of a white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant-based culture or country couldn't possibly be better than what we have here in the States is patently absurd. We don't live in the 1920s anymore. The world is a lot more modern, and by virtue of that, generally has on-par health care with that of the Western world. I mean, even Thai Land has great health care and they perform transgender surgeries all the time with great results.

It's not fair to assume that the rest of the world outside of the United States or other "White Western countries" can't perform safe surgeries.

As someone who has actually been to the ER to get a failed stent removed from their bladder (because, y'know, I need to be incontinent, right?) and as someone who has had psychological and mental stress from not having incontinence, @spark, I ask you this question: Which pain is worse, physical or mental pain? If obtaining surgery to reduce or eliminate dysphoria is considered, by you, to be "self-harm" (which means that all trans or non-binary people who have underwent SRS caused themselves "self-harm"), then it seems clear to me that you don't struggle with mental pain very much, if at all, because let me tell you, ask anyone with anxiety, dysphoria, depression, and other forms of mental illness, and they'll tell you they'd rather have physical pain rather than mental pain. I'd amputate both of my legs in a heartbeat if it meant all of my mental pain would vanish.

The mental pain is 1000x worse than physical pain. And I'll confidently add myself to the group of people who would agree with that statement.

This post is getting long, but I just wanted to chime in that 1) yes, @DAQ's struggle is real as they are quite consistent on their complaints about the issue in this subforum, and I too struggle in similar fashion; 2) I encourage you to look at the health care systems around the world and to discard the notion that only the US or other Western countries can successfully perform surgery without killing their patients, because the data, frankly, says otherwise; and 3) I invite you to re-evaluate what "self-harm" means in this context because if obtaining incontinence through surgery actually makes one's life better, how can that be argued against? I'd argue that the medical gatekeeping keeping us from these surgeries causes more harm than good in the long run. I should know, I've put myself at physical risk because I need to be incontinent and it's already cost me more than $16,000 in ER and Urgent Care visits in the process (granted 100% my fault, but I don't have recognized medical support for this issue, so what can I do? Nothing? We all know how that works out...).

I for one can stub my toe and get over it the next day, or break my arm and get over it the next month, but the constant dysphoria and mental grind of not being able to be who I am (remember, I have been untraining "the safe way" for the last 3 years and have made very, very little progress) is a much harder battle than struggling with a physical disability such as incontinence. I've lived the incontinent lifestyle to the best of my ability, while actively untraining, and I am at the point right now that I am perfectly okay with a surgical option, if I could afford it. Damn, I just want to feel like myself, y'know?

All this is to say, I 100% believe that @DAQ's struggle is real and they are as frustrated as, if not more than, myself. They're not blowing smoke, that's for sure.

Disclaimer: I also wanted to say that I do not support willy-nilly surgeries to look cool or anything or to jump on some body modification trend. I just believe that careful, thought out, professionally evaluated, medically qualified surgeries of this nature shouldn't be automatically shut down just because it offends "common sense" in some way because as we have thoroughly shown that with trans people, not treating the dysphoria, statistically, causes more harm (suicides, etc.) than recognizing it for what it is and effectively treating it, for one example.

I have BIID/BID. @DAQ does too. Why is it such a struggle for people like us to convince the medical priesthood, and people on the Incontinent-Desires subforum, on what should be allowable, and yet, anyone can just opt for plastic surgery as if there's nothing wrong with it? Have you seen what 100s of plastic surgeries can do to the same person? It's horrifying, and yet is, on some scale, socially encouraged in certain places, such as Los Angeles.

I just can't wrap my head around the cognitive dissonance at some of this.

With all due respect, @spark.