Will wearing and using diapers 24/7 shrink my bladder

[Diaperman123]

I was wondering if I did start peeing whenever I felt the slightest urge in my bladder would it start to shrink 

[AuroraRose]

I wear diapers nearly 24 / 7 but not quite (usually 5 - 6 days a week). The only real noticeable effect of it that I've seen.

Is the reflex of peeing into the diaper semi automatically from having gotten used to it being on. no other aspects of my

control or capacity seem affected though.

[Mindylou]

In my experience, the bladder does shrink and mine became super sensitive.. like when I try to go without a diaper an hour or so between evening and bedtime changes. I haven't had an accident yet but the bladder is really sensitive to any amount of liquid in it and wants it out ASAP. I would not trust myself to go out without at least a thick pull-up because I guarantee it's going to get wet.. simply stopping what im doing to go to a bathroom is unheard of now. 

[~Brian~]

On 8/11/2023 at 2:28 AM, AuroraRose said:

I wear diapers nearly 24 / 7 but not quite (usually 5 - 6 days a week). The only real noticeable effect of it that I've seen.

Is the reflex of peeing into the diaper semi automatically from having gotten used to it being on. no other aspects of my

control or capacity seem affected though.

@AuroraRose

I am an incontinent diaper lover, so I wear diapers 24/7. The only problem that I seem to have sometimes is that when I take a diaper off sometimes I feel like I should have it on, or sometimes I feel like I don't trust it being off for long because I might make a mistake and have an accident. I'm glad I have my mega Max diapers: the story I could tell you about the state trying to change the type of diapers we would use would probably make you want to spit fire! When you want to have the best, they want you to have the worst! I had to fight them for two weeks to be able to get them to understand that what works should not be changed, and I have a good contract that they're paying for, I have the diapers that work for me and I can get what I need if I need it. Them changing that to something that's less quality is ridiculous, and that's ridiculous as well because you need good diapers. If you have crap quality diapers, then you end up with a big mess and it's not very good.

Additionally, when I end up using the diaper, I have it on. My body seems to know when a diaper is on, so now it's not a matter of having to stop and think about doing it, it just comes out. if you have no control or little control, it can come on so fast that you're not sure, and it's happened to me that it just comes on like a deluge, and it's not a few dribbles either. Learned how to control my bladder so it's not going to overflow the diaper, but I need good diapers just for this purpose. For me when I have to release, I have to release and there's no question that I have to have something that's going to be able to take whatever I give it! That's why I say diapers that work for one person may not work for another, and that's why I told the state that they need to give us a choice, like they always don't!

I'm just so glad that I have diapers now! It's made my life a lot easier, and a lot less stressful! I can't explain how much stress sometimes you have in your life and with all the things that have happened in 2023 so far it makes me wonder. The flood that I've had in my state, and then we had two or three weeks of cleaning up garbage that was probably toxic, and then they had to clean the streets, now they're cleaning up basements and trying to rebuild, so it's a long arduous process, and I'm hoping that everyone that was involved in the flood in Vermont will be able to recover, but you never know, because some people have had their homes destroyed. With all this stress, it makes me wonder why I shouldn't have gone to diapers earlier, but I'm glad that I was able to finally get what I needed, and I'll be able to keep what I have.

 

21 minutes ago, Mindylou said:

In my experience, the bladder does shrink and mine became super sensitive.. like when I try to go without a diaper an hour or so between evening and bedtime changes. I haven't had an accident yet but the bladder is really sensitive to any amount of liquid in it and wants it out ASAP. I would not trust myself to go out without at least a thick pull-up because I guarantee it's going to get wet.. simply stopping what im doing to go to a bathroom is unheard of now. 

I would agree with you! there are people that ask us all the time whether wearing a diaper will Make you incontinent. The simple answer to that question is no it will not make you incontinent. Putting a diaper on doesn't mean that your body is going to start using it. you have to condition your body to start using it, and if you have to condition it that's because you want to do it that way, or in another case you don't have any control at all in which case you would use the diaper because when your body decides to release you need to release, and then you change your diaper. Sometimes what happens is when your bladder starts to shrink you're not able to hold as much as you did when it was a lot more larger, so that means that you are not able to hold as much, and if your condition to release when you feel it, it will happen.

I think that your bladder would shrink overtime because you're wearing diapers in and of itself wouldn't make your body shrink. It all depends on how your body is conditioned, and that's basically what it is. A baby for example doesn't know any better than to use his diaper because that's what he is expected to do. That's normal for him or her because that is what it's expected. a non incontinent adult would use the toilet because that is what is expected of him or her. When you're wearing a diaper, you're wearing it because either you like it, or you need it for whatever reason. You eventually learn that you have your diaper on and you would use your diaper because your body now can't hold as much as it usually does, but I'm not sure if that is what you call bladder shrinkage or if that's just because you have a diaper on and your body wants to use it after it's been conditioned. Will consider the fact that it is possible to have your body to shrink, but I'm not sure if it's because you're wearing diapers, it would have to be because of the fact that you wear them for a long time or your body is accustomed to it.

So as I said, just putting a diaper on does not mean that you gonna use it right off! You have to condition your body to use it, because you're undoing potty training skills. Those who do not have any control at all just use the diaper because that is what is necessary. I believe it's the same for an incontinent person: you feel the need to go and you just release, and your diaper will take care of you, and you have to be careful that you don't overdo it or flood it, but this is because you are Wearing one, and then once you take your diaper off after awhile, you may just go because you have to go, that's why it's important to have a diaper on, that way you don't have an accident that you aren't expecting, but that does normally happen, which has happened to me a few times

Brian

[babykeiff]

*Bladder / bowel control is based on subcontious intervention of autonomic processes. When urine is placed into the bladder, the bladder expands and stretch sensors on same trigger the sphincters to open. Toilet training teaches one to intervene in this process by closing ones external sphincter - i.e. holding it.  (Simplified explaination)

When one wears diapers for extended periods, it triggers ones memory to remember childhood and the reflex behaviour of voiding as soon as the bladder begins to stretch. What one notices from this is wetting the diaper almost without notice coupled with insecurity when not wearing a diaper. There are a few ways to handle this -

1. Fully accept your need / dependance on diapers. This can be enhanced with hypnosis and/or others treatment of you - i.e. accepting that yu need diapers and checking and changing you as and when required. This also includes messy diapers.
2. Attempt to deny this and always be on the edge of diaper dependant.
3. Revert to training pants and attempt to toilet train yourself again.

 

So, the simple answer to 'will wearing and using diapers 24/7 shrink my bladder' is yes because - bladder will shrink as you revert to almost autonomic voiding as soon as the bladder starts to expand -  thus it will loose its ability to stretch OR no is you keep holding it until you feel you need to go. Most diaper wearers and users wet as soon as they feel the need once they are comfortable about the capability and capacity of their diapers.

So, similar to what most have stated, wearing an article of clothing does not directly change ones behaviour, however, if one starts too revert to pre toilet trained behaviour, i.e. relax into using the diaper as comfortable as you did as a baby, your bladder & bowel control will diminish and your body will adapt / remember how to use the diapers. Once this starts, the associated information taht is being passed to your conscious mind of needing to void / voiding / in a wet / messy diaper becomes useless information. As a result, this information willl stop being passed to your conscious mind - i.e. the state of your diaper and your bladder / bowel needs. This can be accellerated if you have a parental figure that removes the choice of when / if your diaper will be changed.

Still, wearing diapers without a parental figure making the choice of if/when they will be changed does not preclude you reverting to wetting without thought, numerous times and not realising you are wet until you physically check. This behaviour, without a parent, adds a level of stress to some, unless they trust their diapers and change by the clock instead of when they feel that they are wet. 

[stevewet]

13 hours ago, Mindylou said:

In my experience, the bladder does shrink and mine became super sensitive.. like when I try to go without a diaper an hour or so between evening and bedtime changes. I haven't had an accident yet but the bladder is really sensitive to any amount of liquid in it and wants it out ASAP. I would not trust myself to go out without at least a thick pull-up because I guarantee it's going to get wet.. simply stopping what im doing to go to a bathroom is unheard of now. 

Same here I just go in my nappy usually without thinking about it.

[MLDK]

Your bladder won’t shrink unless you make sure there’s nothing in your bladder. Wearing diapers in itself won’t do it. You have to make an effort of keeping your bladder empty or as empty as you possibly can, for a very long time.

[babykeiff]

On 8/18/2023 at 4:41 AM, MLDK said:

....Your bladder won’t shrink unless you make sure there’s nothing in your bladder....

Any muscle, not used / excercised will shrink to nothing. Since the bladder is a muscle, it will shrink when it is not allowed to stretch (i.e. muscle useage) and when one wets ones diaper as soon as they feel the urge with/without noticing, the bladder is not stretching. Others here have confirmed that instance where they wet at the slightest urge and do not feel confident going without a diaper / pull-up. This is where the subcontious mind, still controlling the bladder, does not inform the consicous mind of the need, but just reacts to urine in the bladder. As a result, the bladder capacity does reduce until it is the normal size of a 2 year old where one is voiding every 10-15 minutes / urinal sphincter semi relaxed so one voids by gravity.

On 8/18/2023 at 4:41 AM, MLDK said:

...You have to make an effort of keeping your bladder empty or as empty as you possibly can...

This is caused focusing, with your conscious mind, on the actions of ones bladder, which will not allow your subcontious mind to control same. As a result, this will defeat any efforts one takes to regress to infantile voiding / become diaper dependant.

These comments by @MLDK , a person I blocked, is an example of miss information and scaremongering on the Internet, that then gets copied and pasted here in good faith. This, I called him out for this before, but he still seems to post this type of unsubstantiated junk.

[stevewet]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:19 PM, Mindylou said:

In my experience, the bladder does shrink and mine became super sensitive.. like when I try to go without a diaper an hour or so between evening and bedtime changes. I haven't had an accident yet but the bladder is really sensitive to any amount of liquid in it and wants it out ASAP. I would not trust myself to go out without at least a thick pull-up because I guarantee it's going to get wet.. simply stopping what im doing to go to a bathroom is unheard of now. 

Same here. I have given up trying to hold it and find I pre a little and often, apart from at night when I pee buckets while asleep.

[MLDK]

Don’t listen to babykeiff, he wants to be seen as someone who knows a lot, but he’s just posting fantasies. he said he blocked me, well you cannot block anyone in here. Just him saying shit like this, because I share my opinion on what he says, should tell you everything. He’s not trustworthy! 

if you want to shrink your bladder, diapers alone won’t do it, you have to work on having an empty bladder at all times, I.e. limit your fluid intake, and actively make sure to empty out your bladder all the time, and this takes months if not years to see results, by then you will have accomplished an overactive bladder with little capacity.

others in here have mentioned how they managed to do this, and their stories can be found in the forum.

there isn’t any magic bullet that will render you incontinent over night, well an accident might, but wants to do this.

 

[Dubious]

If you are a bedwetter, pees while you sleep, then it might shrink, but if you sleep through the night and wake up with a full bladder, it wont shrink, as it gets used during the night. 

[Kevin140]

On 8/28/2023 at 7:47 PM, Dubious said:

If you are a bedwetter, pees while you sleep, then it might shrink, but if you sleep through the night and wake up with a full bladder, it wont shrink, as it gets used during the night. 

Yes and no.

Yes, if you sleep 6 or 8 hours without going to toilet at night.

No, if you awake at night and have the urge to pee, you go to toilet or you use your diaper. Than your bladder will shrink!

I've been working on developing an overactive bladder for years and I've come quite far. Since I don't primarily want to be a bedwetter, I only wore a diaper during the day and used it when I felt the slightest urge. Now it is the case that I very often pass urine in small amounts.

At night, however, in contrast to before, I no longer sleep for 4 hours and have to go to the toilet, but after 2.5 hours with considerably less volume.

So I successfully reduced my bladder size without wearing a diaper at night or wetting the bed.

[Little Sherri]

I've been 24/7 for about 4.5 years. My cruising range has declined for sure, but I have not experienced any loss of daytime control, other than needing to pay attention to not just voiding whenever I feel like it, for example if I'm at the doctor's office: I used to go in there with no diaper on, but now I'll wear a diaper but still keep it dry, just in case any in-trouser examination is required, because I think it would be disrespectful and embarrassing to wear a soggy diaper in that environment if I have any choice about it. Has my bladder shrunk? Not sure, but it feels like it has - it complains a lot earlier than it used to if I try to hold it. 

However, at night, I have experienced two divergent outcomes: once in a while, I pee in my diaper while I'm sleeping, with no recollection of it. And, at least a couple of nights a week, I sleep through the night and don't pee at all. The rest of the time, I wake up needing to pee at some point, and do so in my diaper, then fall back to sleep. Urine output declines overnight, so perhaps a smaller (or less toned) bladder probably could still contend with the reduced output. But, that said, I easily sleep 4-6 hours, and sometimes 8, without going, so... not sure it's really much smaller. 

[oznl]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:24 AM, Diaperman123 said:

I was wondering if I did start peeing whenever I felt the slightest urge in my bladder would it start to shrink 

Similar to @Little Sherri I’m somewhere between 4.5 and 5 years in (there was a false start) on 24/7 diapering “peeing whenever I felt the slightest urge.  Perhaps unsurprisingly, I find myself in a somewhat similar place as Sherri.

• I pee very frequently in very small volumes, often multiple times per hour with very little effort or thought

• I *think* that each pee is a result of me choosing to do so but sometimes it's a bit blurred and sometimes I realise I'm wetting my diaper and I can't recall choosing to

• I can choose to stay dry still if I need to however, I will go from “completely empty bladder” to uncontrollable urination due to urgency in about 2 – 3 hours under normal conditions with the last hour being VERY uncomfortable. 

• I have become something of an intermittent bedwetter; usually a couple of nights per week and this will happen even if I do NOT wear a diaper (so, I wear a diaper!)

I’m not going to speculate on whether my bladder has “shrunk” or become inelastic because I’m not a urologist but that’s how things are for me now.   I know my bladder is intolerant of holding and will not hold much.  Even when I sleep-wet, I know that I’ll often do that within a couple of hours of falling asleep and that the void volume is not high.

  I am kind of continent during the day (although I've reached the point where life is more practical if I'm diapered) but I'm not reliably continent at night anymore.

YMMV as they say...

[Hannah YMS]

At almost 3 years of untraining, I can confirm what @Little Sherri, @MLDK, and @oznl are saying.

I am still 100% continent but when I'm diapered and in the habit of just going when I feel the urge, the lines blur as to when specific events of wetting happen. Unfortunately for me, I am still not yet in the low volume/high frequency voiding pattern, but my cruising range is a lot less than it used to be and I can wet my diaper and feel urgency to go potty even 20 minutes after I wet if I'm up and current on my fluid intake. In fact, I find it quite annoying. I do have a lot more post void drip and dribble though and I do occasionally, albeit rarely, wet at night.

Sadly, I expected the "12 months" duration of the program to be the measure to meet, but as @MLDK says it does take years. That's something I wish I had in my head so my expectations weren't so bruised when I found out that after a year I pretty much made minor progress. Now I expect it to take another 4-5 years before I can reasonably call myself truly diaper dependent. I just hope it's faster than that, lol.

On 8/23/2023 at 8:14 PM, babykeiff said:

This is caused focusing, with your conscious mind, on the actions of ones bladder, which will not allow your subcontious mind to control same. As a result, this will defeat any efforts one takes to regress to infantile voiding / become diaper dependant.

These comments by @MLDK , a person I blocked, is an example of miss information and scaremongering on the Internet, that then gets copied and pasted here in good faith. This, I called him out for this before, but he still seems to post this type of unsubstantiated junk.

The odd thing, @babykeiff, is that my experience and the experience of many others on this subforum contradict what you're saying here, so you may want to reevaluate your thought process on this. You claim to be incontinent and I am not sure how you came to be that way, but if you untrained like a lot of us are trying to do, you'd contradict yourself as you would know what untraining entails. I suspect you were injured or born incontinent, but it seems clear you didn't go through the untraining process that I and many others are currently doing. I can confirm that concentrated effort of untraining, staying relaxed, using your diaper at the slightest urge or notice, etc., absolutely does affect your subconscious mind AND your bladder. Your subconscious mind is just that, but in order to change it you have to train it with your conscious mind, otherwise nothing would change and the multitude of us who are untraining and those who have achieved clear results would be lying to you and everyone else. As a point of argument, religious monastics (be it Christian, Buddhist, Zen, Tao, etc.) aren't born spiritually enlightened or saintly, they have to work at combating their inner nature with their conscious mind in order for the subconscious mind to follow. Simply put, you're wrong on this point.

Also, not trying to be rude here, but if I'm being honest I take most of what you say, when it comes to topics of a medical nature, with a grain of salt. You talk as if you have a medical background but you aren't a doctor. I've seen licensed medical doctors and nurses on this forum call you out for your misinformation on numerous occasions and @MLDK is just calling you out once more. I am unsure of your education (if I were to guess, probably an engineer of sorts, possibly in the medical field) but it's clear you have no standardized medical training and much of what you say with asserted authority is dubious at best. That said, you have raised some good points in the past and I respect your right to speak your mind. But you have to admit at some point that when many people over the years call you out over and over for misinformation, you can't possibly be right all the time. Perhaps it's time to back up and regroup and educate yourself on the talking points where you claim to speak from authority and then come back at the argument again with some cited evidence to back up your claims.

That said, I appreciate your contribution to this subforum as you have a decent amount of informative things to say.

[babykeiff]

15 hours ago, Hannah YMS said:

At almost 3 years of untraining, I can confirm what @Little Sherri, @MLDK, and @oznl are saying.

I am still 100% continent but when I'm diapered and in the habit of just going when I feel the urge, the lines blur as to when specific events of wetting happen. Unfortunately for me, I am still not yet in the low volume/high frequency voiding pattern, but my cruising range is a lot less than it used to be and I can wet my diaper and feel urgency to go potty even 20 minutes after I wet if I'm up and current on my fluid intake. In fact, I find it quite annoying. I do have a lot more post void drip and dribble though and I do occasionally, albeit rarely, wet at night.

Sadly, I expected the "12 months" duration of the program to be the measure to meet, but as @MLDK says it does take years. That's something I wish I had in my head so my expectations weren't so bruised when I found out that after a year I pretty much made minor progress. Now I expect it to take another 4-5 years before I can reasonably call myself truly diaper dependent. I just hope it's faster than that, lol.

The odd thing, @babykeiff, is that my experience and the experience of many others on this subforum contradict what you're saying here, so you may want to reevaluate your thought process on this. You claim to be incontinent and I am not sure how you came to be that way, but if you untrained like a lot of us are trying to do, you'd contradict yourself as you would know what untraining entails. I suspect you were injured or born incontinent, but it seems clear you didn't go through the untraining process that I and many others are currently doing. I can confirm that concentrated effort of untraining, staying relaxed, using your diaper at the slightest urge or notice, etc., absolutely does affect your subconscious mind AND your bladder. Your subconscious mind is just that, but in order to change it you have to train it with your conscious mind, otherwise nothing would change and the multitude of us who are untraining and those who have achieved clear results would be lying to you and everyone else. As a point of argument, religious monastics (be it Christian, Buddhist, Zen, Tao, etc.) aren't born spiritually enlightened or saintly, they have to work at combating their inner nature with their conscious mind in order for the subconscious mind to follow. Simply put, you're wrong on this point.

Also, not trying to be rude here, but if I'm being honest I take most of what you say, when it comes to topics of a medical nature, with a grain of salt. You talk as if you have a medical background but you aren't a doctor. I've seen licensed medical doctors and nurses on this forum call you out for your misinformation on numerous occasions and @MLDK is just calling you out once more. I am unsure of your education (if I were to guess, probably an engineer of sorts, possibly in the medical field) but it's clear you have no standardized medical training and much of what you say with asserted authority is dubious at best. That said, you have raised some good points in the past and I respect your right to speak your mind. But you have to admit at some point that when many people over the years call you out over and over for misinformation, you can't possibly be right all the time. Perhaps it's time to back up and regroup and educate yourself on the talking points where you claim to speak from authority and then come back at the argument again with some cited evidence to back up your claims.

That said, I appreciate your contribution to this subforum as you have a decent amount of informative things to say.

This is almost comical -

You state that I am wrong, yet your actions and behaviour prove different.

I simply stated that to become as diaper dependant as a baby, one has to wear and use diapers automatically and not focus on same. Eventually the mind reverts to voiding at will instead of holding it - similar behaviour of a baby - they respond instantly to any need - i.e. need to wet, will wet and it doesn't matter to the baby where they are or what they are wearing. THIS TAKES TRAINING - but the training is only to create the self confidence that it is fully acceptable to yourself, not others, that it is expected for you to wet / mess at will. This is what was taught to you as part of toilet training - to hold until you reach a toilet.

You have admitted that you are at the stage that when you wear diapers, you might wet, but when you don't you do not. In what world is that anyway close to the infantile voiding behaviour!

This is why it is comical to me - you were told how to achieve infantile voiding behaviour yet you contradict / attempt to dispell training and experience with what? With 'I am not cause I don't do that... theory. You are pityful.

A baby has control over its bladder and bowels, and can be taught not to use diapers from birth. However, most are taught to ignore the signals from their bladder / bowels and wet / mess as and when they feel. They are praised for using diapers. It is not until the child reaches 2-3 does a parent they change their thinking and want their child to use a toilet.

 

[babykeiff]

On 8/28/2023 at 6:47 PM, Dubious said:

If you are a bedwetter, pees while you sleep, then it might shrink, but if you sleep through the night and wake up with a full bladder, it wont shrink, as it gets used during the night. 

Night time wetting is all about confidence - not just wearing diapers. It is a decision made in your subcontious mind - will a wet bed wake you and disturb your sleep - if the answer is yes, the body creates vasopressin to enable the bladder capacity to last during sleep.  If the answer is no, the body will not expend the energy to create vasopressin and you will wet overnight.

This makes it a simple decision - if you want to wet overnight, set yourself up so when you wet/mess overnight, it wiill not change your comfort level and it will not wake you up to deal with it.

Once this starts, daytime control slowly follows as the bladder slowly looses capacity and if you are wearing diapers daytime, your subcontious mind has accepted that you are supposed to wet/mess as and when needed and it is no longer your call when your diapers are changed. That is why I suggested thick diapers changed at the clock, and not when one 'feels' they need a change.

[Hannah YMS]

On 9/2/2023 at 1:34 PM, babykeiff said:

You are pityful.

Thank you clarifying your position on this issue. And while I'm at it, the word is spelled p-i-t-i-f-u-l.

[babykeiff]

2 hours ago, Hannah YMS said:

Thank you clarifying your position on this issue. And while I'm at it, the word is spelled p-i-t-i-f-u-l.

This proves your ignorance.... and only a fool laughs at its own stupidity.

[babykeiff]

@LiChBo

why the confusion?

[Ferix]

After 6 years of untriaining, I'm very certain that my bladder is hypersensitive to any amount of fluid being in there. It's impossible to say it's shrank without it being measured, but it certainly feels like it. I spent the first few years of my untraining focusing on keeping my bladder empty; I trained myself to wet at the slightest urge, pee in any position or situation, practicing reverse kegals, and I even trained myself how to pee when I don't feel the urge. After 3 years, I didn't feel like I lost bladder control but I definitely had intense urges.

 

At around 5 years was when I started noticing that once an urge hit, I was already peeing without any mental thought on what was happening down there. I notice this most when I'm focused on something else and I find myself mid-pee. I don't really pee in my sleep because my body usually wakes me up to the urge, I think this is more due to me being a light sleeper from 15 years of working as an EMT and needing to wake up and respond at a moment's notice. It doesn't take long after I wake up to the urge to pee that my bladder will contract and I'll start to pee uncontrollably. If I wake up with the urge to pee and try to stand up, I'm peeing almost immediately after I stand up. There's really only been a couple times where I peed in my sleep.

 

It's unfortunate that @babykeiff has resorted to name calling. There's no need to call anyone "pityful", "ignorant", "a fool", and "stupid". It seems like @Hannah YMS was trying to engage in a reasonable conversation while being polite and articulate about it. What you say does not line up with my experience or the experience of others that talk about their untraining in the incontinence desires sub-forum. If you really do feel like what you have to say has merit, then can you explain how you got to your reasoning without resorting to name calling?

[babykeiff]

5 hours ago, Ferix said:

After 6 years of untriaining, I'm very certain that my bladder is hypersensitive to any amount of fluid being in there. It's impossible to say it's shrank without it being measured, but it certainly feels like it. I spent the first few years of my untraining focusing on keeping my bladder empty; I trained myself to wet at the slightest urge, pee in any position or situation, practicing reverse kegals, and I even trained myself how to pee when I don't feel the urge. After 3 years, I didn't feel like I lost bladder control but I definitely had intense urges.

 

At around 5 years was when I started noticing that once an urge hit, I was already peeing without any mental thought on what was happening down there. I notice this most when I'm focused on something else and I find myself mid-pee. I don't really pee in my sleep because my body usually wakes me up to the urge, I think this is more due to me being a light sleeper after 15 years of working as an EMT and needing to wake up and respond at a moment's notice. It doesn't take long after I wake up to the urge to pee that my bladder will contract and I'll start to pee uncontrollably. If I wake up with the urge to pee and try to stand up, I'm peeing almost immediately after I stand up. There's really only been a couple times were I peed in my sleep.

 

It's unfortunate that @babykeiff has resorted to name calling. There's no need to call anyone "pityful", "ignorant", "a fool", and "stupid". It seems like @Hannah YMS was trying to engage in a reasonable conversation while being polite and articulate about it. What you say does not line up with my experience or the experience of others that talk about their untraining in the incontinence desires sub-forum. If you really do feel like what you have to say has merit, then can you explain how you got to your reasoning without resorting to name calling?

F.Y.I.

1. The word pitiful / pityful has the two spellings and both are correct. For someone to correct it, and then snigger, to me is a fool laughing at their own lack of education / knowledge and inabilty to grow. I don't waste my time trying to tell same people anything as it would be futile. - only a fool repeats the same action expecting a different result
2. The definition of a 'fool' is someone that is incapable of learning from their own errors.
3. This member, as you did, contradicts what I posted stating it is incorrect, and then, in the same post, explains how it is working with themselves. That is an attack on what I posted.
4. I pity someone who has not got the ability to be taught in any form. In every encounter in my life, it is a learning experience and a teaching experience. I don't blindly accept what is told to me, I either prove or disprove it - and then I improve myy knowledge base.

Now, back on topic - you have some medical training. As such, would it not be advisable to have empirical data to support your theory considering your statements / wishes rather than stating that your bladder has/has not shrunk? After all, you are the one that state that what I have posted does not line up with your experiences!

I keep saying that if one convinces ones mind that a behaviour B is better for it than behaviour A, the mind accepts behaviour B. Behaviour B, in this case, is the autonomic voiding of bladder and bowels as one used to do as a baby/child. The advantage to the mind and body of this behaviour is the conservation of energy in not producing vasopressin. To follow that behaviour, one has to reverse the reason they were toilet trained - and that is the removal of the associated discomfort / disturbance of a wet cold diaper while asleep.

It is a simple concept - convince the mind and the body will follow. You already know how to use a diaper, you perfected that skill as as a baby - so what is stopping you? It is that you don't TRUST the diaper - something that whomever trained you, took away from you - the trust in your diapers, and the intervention to keep you in clean ones.

This theory has been proven, not only with other members here, but in the increased number of children still in diapers upto and including 5 / 6 year old. The core reason is that disposable baby diapers are designed to keep the baby/child comfortable even when wet and/or messy. The social stigma that existed with the associated smell / leaking diapers is long gone since first the invention of plastic / rubber pants and second, the change from cloth to super absorbant disposable diapers. Many older member here who where in cloth, where toilet trained by the time they were 2, with some older members, toilet trained by 1 1/2. That decision to train children earlier was mainly based on removing the chore of hand washing wet and soiled cloth diapers by parents. It is also the reason that M. Donavan wanted to create a disposable diaper - to avoid having to hand wash the cloth diapers of her own child.

[Ferix]

1 hour ago, babykeiff said:

F.Y.I.

1. The word pitiful / pityful has the two spellings and both are correct. For someone to correct it, and then snigger, to me is a fool laughing at their own lack of education / knowledge and inabilty to grow. I don't waste my time trying to tell same people anything as it would be futile. - only a fool repeats the same action expecting a different result
2. The definition of a 'fool' is someone that is incapable of learning from their own errors.
3. This member, as you did, contradicts what I posted stating it is incorrect, and then, in the same post, explains how it is working with themselves. That is an attack on what I posted.
4. I pity someone who has not got the ability to be taught in any form. In every encounter in my life, it is a learning experience and a teaching experience. I don't blindly accept what is told to me, I either prove or disprove it - and then I improve myy knowledge base.

You're welcome to have your opinion about other people but most people don't just call other people names. Why not be polite instead?

1 hour ago, babykeiff said:

Now, back on topic - you have some medical training. As such, would it not be advisable to have empirical data to support your theory considering your statements / wishes rather than stating that your bladder has/has not shrunk? After all, you are the one that state that what I have posted does not line up with your experiences!

My data is my experiences and testimony. I don't speak to anything confirmed without data to back it up. This is why I said my bladder is hypersensitive. It's unknown without measuring my bladder size that my bladder has shrank. I do wet with more frequency and smaller amounts than I ever have before.

 

1 hour ago, babykeiff said:

I keep saying that if one convinces ones mind that a behaviour B is better for it than behaviour A, the mind accepts behaviour B. Behaviour B, in this case, is the autonomic voiding of bladder and bowels as one used to do as a baby/child.

I can only partially get behind this. There's truth to conditioning your behavior in a way that causes a user to reflexively use diapers after years of untraining. Something I find problematic with this statement is you imply autonomic voiding for infants is because of training. How do you know that's how babies and children void?

From my understanding with taking human anatomy and physiology courses, the human brain is still developing neuropathways and that babies don't understand the signals that cause urine and bowel control. This causes their body to have autonomic voiding to prevent damage. This means that they do not train to use their diapers, they just do. This is the same thing that happens to people with neurogenic bladder (either from injury or defect), the body voids to protect itself from injury from an overfilled waste system. Autonomic voiding is not just limited to babies.

1 hour ago, babykeiff said:

The advantage to the mind and body of this behaviour is the conservation of energy in not producing vasopressin.

How or why is this important? This just does not track. Vasopressin regulates fluids in the body, it has nothing to do with urine or bowel control.

1 hour ago, babykeiff said:

To follow that behaviour, one has to reverse the reason they were toilet trained - and that is the removal of the associated discomfort / disturbance of a wet cold diaper while asleep.

This is an assertion without any evidence behind it. What makes you think that removing the associated discomfort/disturbance of a wet cold diaper while asleep be the cause of people not being able to untrain? My diapers are very warm and comfy when they are wet, especially when in bed. I often wake up, pee, enjoy the warmth, and fall back asleep. If we go by your logic, I feel like I would have started to wet in my sleep by now.

1 hour ago, babykeiff said:

It is a simple concept - convince the mind and the body will follow. You already know how to use a diaper, you perfected that skill as as a baby - so what is stopping you?

Using a diaper as a baby doesn't mean you know how to use a diaper. It really feels like you have a fixation on the baby aspect of autonomous voiding. Being a baby is not a prerequisite to autonomic voiding. A simple google search of autonomic voiding has no mention of baby bladders and many many mentions of bladder dysfunction and neurogenic bladder. As far as it's concerned, when people talk about autonomic bladders, they are not talking about babies.

 

1 hour ago, babykeiff said:

It is that you don't TRUST the diaper - something that whomever trained you, took away from you - the trust in your diapers, and the intervention to keep you in clean ones.

I do trust my diapers. I make the best damn cloth diapers on the planet and they are extremely leak resistant--more so than any diaper on the market. I pee on my side, stomach, and on my back while in bed with no leaks. How can you prove that someone took away my trust for diapers when I have such good diapers that I trust. This seems like another assertion without evidence.

1 hour ago, babykeiff said:

This theory has been proven, not only with other members here, but in the increased number of children still in diapers upto and including 5 / 6 year old. The core reason is that disposable baby diapers are designed to keep the baby/child comfortable even when wet and/or messy. The social stigma that existed with the associated smell / leaking diapers is long gone since first the invention of plastic / rubber pants and second, the change from cloth to super absorbant disposable diapers. Many older member here who where in cloth, where toilet trained by the time they were 2, with some older members, toilet trained by 1 1/2. That decision to train children earlier was mainly based on removing the chore of hand washing wet and soiled cloth diapers by parents. It is also the reason that M. Donavan wanted to create a disposable diaper - to avoid having to hand wash the cloth diapers of her own child.

This is all just speculation and more of a Gish gallop of subjects. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. I suggest that this whole last section is irrelevant to untraining.

In the end, it seems that the only thing you speak of that has merit boils down to untrianing will make it easier to use your diapers. Everything else seems like a reach.

[babykeiff]

29 minutes ago, Ferix said:

You're welcome to have your opinion about other people but most people don't just call other people names. Why not be polite instead?

My data is my experiences and testimony. I don't speak to anything confirmed without data to back it up. This is why I said my bladder is hypersensitive. It's unknown without measuring my bladder size that my bladder has shrank. I do wet with more frequency and smaller amounts than I ever have before.

 

I can only partially get behind this. There's truth to conditioning your behavior in a way that causes a user to reflexively use diapers after years of untraining. Something I find problematic with this statement is you imply autonomic voiding for infants is because of training. How do you know that's how babies and children void?

From my understanding with taking human anatomy and physiology courses, the human brain is still developing neuropathways and that babies don't understand the signals that cause urine and bowel control. This causes their body to have autonomic voiding to prevent damage. This is the same thing that happens to people with neurogenic bladder (either from injury or defect), the body voids to protect itself from injury from an overfilled waste system. Autonomic voiding is not just limited to babies.

How or why is this important? This just does not track. Vasopressin regulates fluids in the body, it has nothing to do with urine or bowel control.

This is an assertion without any evidence behind it. What makes you think that removing the associated discomfort/disturbance of a wet cold diaper while asleep be the cause of people not being able to untrain? My diapers are very warm and comfy when they are wet, especially when in bed. I often wake up, pee, enjoy the warmth, and fall back asleep. If we go by your logic, I feel like I would have started to wet in my sleep by now.

Using a diaper as a baby doesn't mean you know how to use a diaper. It really feels like you have a fixation on the baby aspect of autonomous voiding. Being a baby is not a prerequisite to autonomous voiding.

 

I do trust my diapers. I make the best damn cloth diapers on the planet and they are extremely leak resistant--more so than any diaper on the market. I pee on my side, stomach, and on my back while in bed with no leaks. How can you prove that someone took away my trust for diapers when I have such good diapers that I trust. This seems another assertion without evidence.

This is all just speculation and more of a Gish gallop of subjects. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. I suggest that this whole last section is irrelevant to untraining.

This type of comments you make are both lies and deceptive.

You mix your personal views with misinformation to contradict another.

Did you ever hear of the concept and pratice of elimination communication - where a parent and baby communicate to allow the infant to void and not use a diaper. This makes a laugh of your statement :-

29 minutes ago, Ferix said:

From my understanding with taking human anatomy and physiology courses, the human brain is still developing neuropathways and that babies don't understand the signals that cause urine and bowel control. This causes their body to have autonomic voiding to prevent damage. This is the same thing that happens to people with neurogenic bladder (either from injury or defect), the body voids to protect itself from injury from an overfilled waste system. Autonomic voiding is not just limited to babies.

further details to you are a waste of my time.

As I stated, it is from your understanding, which is fully within YOUR control. As I stated before, I do not repeat the same actions expecting a different result = me telling you stuff is futile and a waste of time.

You also dare to tell me what to do. I do not answer to you for anything.

[oznl]

On 9/3/2023 at 10:02 AM, babykeiff said:

Night time wetting is all about confidence - not just wearing diapers. It is a decision made in your subcontious mind - will a wet bed wake you and disturb your sleep - if the answer is yes, the body creates vasopressin to enable the bladder capacity to last during sleep.  If the answer is no, the body will not expend the energy to create vasopressin and you will wet overnight.

It SEEMED to me that this statement implies is that vasopressin production is discretionary and governed by some kind of state-aware executive function (aka "decision").  

I tried to find out if this is how AVP secretion works.  The material I looked at quickly accelerated away from my capacity to easily comprehend it (beyond first aid and CPR, I have zero medical training) but as I understood it, it is a hard wired circuit driven by “osmoreceptors” (body water sensors) in the hypothalamus (the part of our brain that manages homeostasis) responding to the cessation of drinking by inhibiting fluid loss to maintain water homeostasis.

Having said that, my own experience has been that confidence was (at least initially) an important precursor to sleep voiding.  I just don't see the vector between confidence and AVP secretion disruption.  I also note that my sleep void volumes are markedly lower than similar wake time hours suggesting that vasopressin is still doing its thing.  To relate this back to the OP's original question, I therefore don't see how a decision to wear diapers could similarly alter AVP secretion but as I said, I don't know for sure.

Maybe there's an endocrinologist on board here who can disambiguate this for us 🤣

 

Oh, update - I'm still wading through "ScienceDirect": it seems that melatonin ALSO influences AVP secretion so therefore we will pee less when it's dark 😆  Still no clue on executive function driving any of this though other than the theoretical possibility that a decision to stare at a smartphone before bed would inhibit melatonin and therefore vasopressin (but also inhibit sleep).