Should surgery for permanent incontinence be allowed on those who claim to suffer from living in a continent body?

[cathdiap]

I respect every opinion given in this topic. There are no right or wrong replies. 

I understand there are incontinent people who completely don't like their incontinence but found a way to make the best out of it. And I think it makes sense that those people wonder why on earth anyone would like to have that condition. But hey, why is it so hard to accept the possibility that there are people who really want it? It doesn't mean that those people think your personal situation is something you should enjoy or that you have no reason to complain about it. 

I truly believe there are people who really want to be incontinent for the rest of their lifes. They are unhappy not being diaper dependent and would literally do anything to become incontinent. But hey, why is it so hard to accept that incontinent people try to warn you for the severe impact it will have on the rest of your life. It doesn't mean that you have to stop pursuing your goals.

I think we can all agree that incontinence and wearing diapers is a life-altering condition. It's just that some want it and some don't. And then there are those like me who sometimes want it and sometimes don't. ?

[diapered 4 ever]

36 minutes ago, Eido said:

I agree that we should live and let live. And yes, that those who are incontinent aren't wrong to try to warn those who seek incontinence about the downsides and pitfalls. It's important for all the cards to be on the table for people who are looking into going down this path. That being said...

This is the Incontinence Desires forum. It's here for those of us who actively pursue it, have already pursued it, or are considering embarking upon that journey (and for those who enjoy a temporary stay in incontinence through cathing/stenting, of course, though that's a bit less relevant to this particular post). If people get to the point of posting on this forum and are genuinely seeking to move forward with retraining themselves, I can guarantee you that they've already read most of the material on the subject. That includes all the warnings and "why would you ever want to do this" comments from the fully able, "normal" ABDLs and the medically incontinent folk.

This forum isn't here for said people to come in and look down upon those of us who do have this desire. People with our desires catch that flak in literally every. Single. Other. Place in the ABDL community. This forum is the one place that's just for those of us with these urges. A place where we can educate, encourage, and commiserate with one another over both the desire itself and the measures we take to satisfy it, such as untraining and cathing/stenting. This forum is pretty much the only place outside of Telegram groups where people like us can find understanding and support.

And not to toot my own or anyone else's horn here, but I think we do a pretty good job of policing this place for the tourists who are only looking for a fetishistic thrill. All of the regular posters here, self included, will gladly talk about the downsides and complications that come with not only incontinence, but the path it takes to achieve it from an otherwise-functional body. We aren't trying to glorify it or push those people into something that they aren't ready for. We aren't here to fantasize. We're here to discuss the real-life applications and experiences that arise from our needs.

Something I don't feel is recognized often enough, especially by the nay-sayers that come in here wagging their fingers at us like we're errant children and not fully grown adults, is that there are a LOT of roadblocks on the way to reaching a lack of bladder/bowel control. Like, an absurd amount of them. Because, at least for most people, life isn't an ABDL fantasy where someone becomes incontinent and their day-to-day life barely changes at all outside of their homes. Even just training for incontinence will take over many aspects of a person's life.

These are things that will naturally weed out the people who don't actually want it or are getting into it for the wrong reasons. Stuff like working out an understanding with a spouse, narrowed prospects for dating and finding romance, friends/family finding out, maintaining a social life during the transition to 24/7 and after achieving it, diet changes and restrictions, needing to alter or drop certain hobbies that aren't conducive to a need for diapers, informing doctors and dealing with medical issues, eliminations happening in uncomfortable situations, impact on career, the straight-up monetary expense of it all, and the list goes on. This is a path that takes literal years to complete and involves some incredibly serious mental and physical challenges and changes. It's not some activity that you just up and decide to do for some sexy fun one day.

The simple truth about wanting to be incontinent is that the harsh realities involved with achieving this desire polices itself. Those of us that are left over end up here, discussing the particulars and practicalities of following through. That includes pointing out the downsides to the occasional fap-posters that come around. Even if we didn't do that, the transient thrill-seekers will inevitably get a cold, hard reality-check when they run into those roadblocks. It makes them reevaluate their desires and determine if this is something they actually want or something better left to fantasy. Which is good. That's the untraining process at-work. It's not just about losing control. It's also about teaching the trainee what it's going to be like dealing with incontinence for the rest of their life if they decide to proceed.

To address the actual topic of this thread, rather than just the medically incon vs. incon desires argument that it's been steadily devolving into, I believe that the weeding out that the process of untraining does is incredibly important. I think if elective surgery ever did become an option (and, while I think body-modding and transhumanism are an inevitable part of humanity's future, I'm not saying at all that I'd want it to be an option just yet), that requiring a period of years in diapers 24/7 would be a good way of ensuring that a person is genuinely committed and that this isn't just a passing phase or sexual desire. The proof of concept is right here in the journal-posts from various people contained in this forum. There are some that quit before they ever really get started, some that quit half-way or after achieving partial success, and some that go the distance. We're all living evidence that using untraining as a process for coming to terms with these desires for incontinence works.

Many of us have been in diapers 24/7 for years (a decade in my own case). Those of us who have achieved what we're looking for tend to look at it practically, accepting both the upsides and the downsides. By the time we ever even get to the make-or-break point where we need to either make the final pushes or abandon the idea, we know what we're getting into and accept the sacrifices we have to make. They're impossible to ignore once you've actually committed yourself to the path. Even for someone like me who has historically flip-flopped, I was never going into things eyes shut, head buried in the sand. Like the others here who think long and hard about what they're committing to, I knew what I was doing.

Having people come in here and constantly tell us, "You don't actually want this." isn't just ignorant of that commitment and the sacrifices we make to achieve a body and life that makes us happy, it's patronizing and belittling. I'm not saying that these people are wrong to advise caution or lay out the realities of having this condition in general. I think such warnings serve a good purpose in most ABDL spaces. I'm saying that here, in this particular forum, we've heard it all before. We know what we're getting into. Yet we're still here. Save the warnings and admonishments for the young guns on Twitter and Insta that think becoming incontinent will somehow help them find a caregiver, absolve them of their adult responsibilities, or will just be the hottest thing ever.

Anyways, enough proselytizing. I'll end this post with a quote from the sticky thread posted at the top of this forum, the one titled, 'Site Rules'. It's something that everyone considering posting in this forum could stand to read before doing so:

"- If you don't have the desire to experience incontinence yourself that's fine but do not be critical of those who do in any way. This includes anything advising that there are problems with this that hasn't already been covered."

BEST post on this thread. ❤️
Thank you!   

[incondl]

@eido You said it far better than I ever could. Thank you! 

[Wet Knight]

@ Eido.

Please may I ask, after a decade of 24/7, do you wet in your sleep ?

[zzyzx]

14 hours ago, Eido said:

I'd rather not discuss too many specifics of my untraining in this thread, it's not really in-line with the topic, but the short answer seems to be only when I sleep diapered.

If you'd like a more detailed answer, I documented my path thoroughly, albeit sporadically, in a thread here.

@Eido

I realize this response is a bit off the subject of the thread.  When reading your earlier long discussion on this thread, I felt the need to respond, and struggling to come up with words appropriate to this specific forum area.... While I mostly agree with your comments about self regulation, I believe there is a very small percent of folks who might get in trouble quickly, and if that person decides to back out (shortly after proceeding with the goals of this form), might be in trouble....  However for that very small percent, they probably are already on the edge of incontinence whether they want it or not.  So, long term, probably really doesn't matter and most will be able to try and find out if it is for them before getting in trouble.

Thank you for the link to your thread.  Your link makes it real about the situation surrounding the issues that prompt this thread's question.  After reading that, I think the best solution to my concern would be to have a sticky subject thread at the beginning of this form that is links to the threads like yours, @oznl's, @Little Sherri's, @Enthusi's and others have about your personal progress and struggles.....

 

[oznl]

6 hours ago, zzyzx said:

Thank you for the link to your thread.  Your link makes it real aAfter reading that, I think the best solution to my concern would be to have a sticky subject thread at the beginning of this form that is links to the threads like yours, @oznl's, @Little Sherri's, @Enthusi's and others have about your personal progress and struggles.....

 

Although from a conflict-of-interest standpoint, I need to dial myself out of the voting community, I think the idea of a sticky linking to SUSTAINED 24/7 chronicles might be a powerful thing.  Certainly when I started researching around, it was really hard to find chronologies with any longitudinal integrity: this vacuum was one of the key drivers that made me work hard to hang in there in chronicling my journey irrespective of how I may have felt about it week to week.

On another note, I'd like to call out @Eido for one of the most coherent, thoughtful and well-reasoned essays I've seen on DD (or indeed elsewhere).  There was some clarity of thought in there that left me ruefully wishing that *I* had written it!  I suspect that this too could be adapted to a "sticky" for people to read before they wade in with their judgmental guns a-blazing.

Everything said I either agreed with, or at least respected the argumentative position and thought about it carefully.  On some factoids, it may have even prodded me to change my mind.

[Kif]

5 hours ago, oznl said:

ink the idea of a sticky linking to SUSTAINED 24/7 chronicles might be a powerful thing.  Certainly when I started researching around, it was really hard to find chronologies with any longitudinal integrity: this vacuum was one of the key drivers that made me work hard to hang in there in chronicling my journey irrespective of how I may have felt about it week to week.

I know it's a tad off topic, but I second this!

And, I hope to join the ranks of y'all with sustained 24/7 with a bit of trans representation ? 

I untrain for me and me alone, despite the naysaying, life changes, etc. BUT, not without feeling a tad bit alone in very specific and extremely relevant regards...

There's so little info on folks that kept this up despite upcoming SRS, the feelings of conflict involved, having to stop untraining, manage those emotions on top of surgery emotions, and how it has even brought out my little side again to cope...It's complex, difficult, emotional, but rewarding...and I hope to shed some light on it for others in a similar position, to give them a cohesive and ongoing set of experiences. ❤️

(and while I won't say exactly what stage I'm at for privacy reasons, I'll just say that it's going well but will be awhile yet before I post, and I cannot wait to share how it has all gone! ?)

[cathdiap]

@Eido I agree we must prevent incontinent people from spoiling other members' fantasies about incontinence, but I think an exception should be made for cases where members want to make their fantasy a reality with surgery.

i think the site rules for this particular forum work fine when we understand that someone is just fantasizing about being incontinent, that someone is safely working with catheters or stents, or that someone is in the process of unpotty training leaving  him or her enough time to overthink the pros and cons of the results. In all these cases the risk of unwanted outcomes is minimal.

But I think the site rules on this forum are too strict if isomeone wants to discuss surgery to become incontinent. Because then they want to cross the line between an incontinence desire and medical incontinence,  that is immediate and irreversible. It is my personal experience this involves a huge risk of unwanted outcomes.

A couple of years ago I experimented many months continuously using stents. At the time I was pretty sure that I wanted to become incontinent for life preferably by undergoing surgery. But much to my surprise I came to the realization that at least for me there is a BIG difference between the desire to be incontinent and the reality of being incontinent for ever. I no longer wanted it. And so far the results of the poll seem to confirm that most members here agree that there is a relevant difference between a desire and the reality.

There are medically incontinent members here who fully respect others' desire of being diaper dependend, but who also know all the consequences of being incontinent for life. They can be a source of valuable information for those who say they are on the verge of making radical decisions like surgery to become incontinent. 

Isn't it a human quality to warn your fellow community members of the consequences before they harm themselves with surgery? We all seem to accept the many warnings put out on this forum regarding the use of stents and catheters. So why are we so sensitive for warnings regarding this kind of surgery? Of course this needs to be done respectfully, but that should be covered by the general site rule to not be an ass. 

 

[babykeiff]

Free choice is free choice. If one (in this example, person A) choses freely to have a procedure performed on themselves, no one else should be held responsible in any form for the resultant behaviour of person A.

Others have stated that this action should preclude person A from social benefits as offered to those who are diaper dependant. To do same is discriminatory. Social benefits (such as diapers etc) are available to everyone or no one. There should be no discrimination and/or limits based on ones choice.

Yes, there always will be some people who will want this procedure reversed despite how well it is explained to them, and will seek legal redress. Therefore, to prevent this, the procedure should only carried out after the person has got the authorization document signed by their chosen legal representive.

I don't accept in any form, the restrictions in free choice imposed by governments 'in the interest of self preservation'. I do not credit governments to have any advanced knowledge / experience that allows them to curtail ones choices. Making the possession and sale of certain drugs illegal is doing is creating a financial and criminal empire. I would make drug sales similar to alchol and tobacoo sales. I do accept the concept of implementing 'common sense' i.e. in the installation of traffic controls / speed limits etc - where common behaviour is enforced for the  good of all.

There are two statements that reinforce this-

1. To limit a persons freedom of choice, even freedom to make the wrong choice, is to manipulate that person as though he were a puppet and not a person.

The 'wrong' choice, as identified in the first statement, is subjective - and can only be identified by the person making the choice. Anyone else that states that it is the 'wrong' choice, is deciding for another, which is removal of the person free choice. 

2. Free will exists for all, but for all to enjoy free will, all most compromise. Otherwise, free will cannot exist.

Your free will is absolute, as long as your actions does not affect the free will of another. As a result, both people must compromise so both have free will. Otherwise, no one can have free will.

[zzyzx]

7 hours ago, Eido said:

'm not so sure I agree about folks getting into trouble quickly. As mentioned, it takes years to attain incontinence through behavioral training, so people should generally be encountering the necessary roadblocks to make them confront what their life will be like if they were to not have any control. Am I misunderstanding you, perhaps?

@Eido:

I should probably move this to a different forum area to continue this part of the discussion.  However, if some one was like me (and how I broke, not seeking what has happened), then there could be others also near the boarder line.

I don't think I've gotten into details of what brought me to needing to get diapers, which has lead me to this site....  However, based on how things went for me, yes, someone could get in trouble in only a few weeks....

My background:

• Between my 7th and 13th birthdays I woke up 10 times to find the mictrition cycle had triggered while I was asleep.  9 of the 10 times, was basically a full bladder release.  Each time I slept solidly through what happened.  Something else woke me up.  I had no further issues till my second water bed as a young adult.
• As a teenager, twice, the second packing to go off to college, the thought crossed my mind of "what if" it happened again.  At that age, I never understood why it happened the 10 times, but not otherwise, and a piece of me was "scared" or concerned that it might happen again.
• As a young adult, my second waterbed taught me I was sensitive to certain types of sudden external sensation changes while sleeping....  I got better controls on my third waterbed, and after getting things adjusted right, didn't have any further issues until an illness hit.
• Eventually, the  combination of an illness and the medication used to get over the illness had the mictrition cycle triggering on every full bladder in my sleep while on the medication and getting over the illness (and drinking plenty of fluids to help clear the illness)....  I called the doctor after the first night, and he wasn't concerned....  Expected it to go away once recovered.  It didn't.  In my opinion, it was the combination of the illness, a side affect of how the medication affected how I sense things, and a theory I have is that my nerve system is less dense than "normal|, "average" or "mean"...  I've know since elementary school that how I sense things (starting with pain) isn't how most people sense things.  After getting over that illness, I did find that I had to relearn some sensations.... such as knowing what temperature it was....  How I sensed things had shifted.  And the combination of the negative impact over the two weeks on the medication changed what had been occasional nocturia into occasional nocturnal enuresis once I recovered from the illness..
• So, yes, I think if I had been looking to untrain, I think I would have started wetting the bed way earlier than most and then wouldn't have been able to stop if I had wanted to.  
• On a side note, prior to onset of BPH, my maximum functional bladder capacity was above average.  Hence, I tend to prefer cloth diapers for  reliability.  Another theory I have is the larger than average bladder capacity is how I managed to get out of diapers the first time.

So, yes, if there others out there with the same "limited" sensation / nerve system similar to how my body works, I think they could get in trouble in a significantly shorter time than the average / mean  / normal person.

[deewet]

This is a very interesting subject and it is great to see so many ideas promoted along these lines.  I believe that the most appropriate idea proposed follows the line of what already is the norm for gender reassignment.  IE If it is your choice to be rendered surgically incon, you should have to live at least a year as such prior to the actual permeant surgery.  

This could be easily done with the installation of a stent by a medical professional, these are available for certain cases already, and could also be used as a precursor to a permeant act.  This would certainly meet the requirements of the doctors, as it is already std procedure as mentioned in gender reassignment to have a "trial period" and is a relatively simple procedure.

That should meet all the moral and ethical requirements that the medical profession follows, and as mentioned, is a simple and quick thing to accomplish.

[Ferix]

If there was a way to safely do the surgery, then totally 100% yes, they should allow people to get surgery to become incontinent. I echo what others think: There would need to be evidence that the person has made significant efforts to live the lifestyle of an incontinent person prior to having the surgery as well as getting the support of a medical team that considers mental and physical well being.

 

I have tried to get surgery to become incontinent and spoke with one of the leading urology surgeons in America, who literally wrote the paper on sphincterotomy. Other than vehemently opposed to doing the surgery, they said it's not safe to remove the sphincters without also removing part of the prostate. Without removing the prostate, over time the bladder would weaken and not be strong enough to push urine pass the prostate, potentially causing a life threatening blockage of urine.

 

Stents could be a valid alternative. Maybe someday there'll be someone out there that has the capabilities to offer stents that are as safe and as easy insert and remove as a catheter. 

[Kawaharu]

1 hour ago, Ferix said:

If there was a way to safely do the surgery, then totally 100% yes, they should allow people to get surgery to become incontinent. I echo what others think: There would need to be evidence that the person has made significant efforts to live the lifestyle of an incontinent person prior to having the surgery as well as getting the support of a medical team that considers mental and physical well being.

 

I have tried to get surgery to become incontinent and spoke with one of the leading urology surgeons in America, who literally wrote the paper on sphincterotomy. Other than vehemently opposed to doing the surgery, they said it's not safe to remove the sphincters without also removing part of the prostate. Without removing the prostate, over time the bladder would weaken and not be strong enough to push urine pass the prostate, potentially causing a life threatening blockage of urine.

 

Stents could be a valid alternative. Maybe someday there'll be someone out there that has the capabilities to offer stents that are as safe and as easy insert and remove as a catheter. 

As I have said, No and this amounts to trivializing those who are actually incontinent and disabled. 

[Ferix]

32 minutes ago, Kawaharu said:

As I have said, No and this amounts to trivializing those who are actually incontinent and disabled. 

Okay, thanks for repeating. No offense is intended to those who are incontinent.

 

I'm sure your opinion is welcome in other forums but it really isn't here in "incontinence desires" about this subject.

[Kawaharu]

40 minutes ago, Ferix said:

Okay, thanks for repeating. No offense is intended to those who are incontinent.

 

I'm sure your opinion is welcome in other forums but it really isn't here in "incontinence desires" about this subject.

And this why incontinent folks don’t like people like you appropriating their disability. 

[Ferix]

11 minutes ago, Kawaharu said:

And this why incontinent folks don’t like people like you appropriating their disability. 

It's not what I'm doing.

[incondl]

Some people do not like being incontinent. Some people do. Who are we to judge? So let’s not judge. If people cannot reinforce each other on a incontinent desires thread it’s just best to say nothing at all.

[meeko313]

here's my take:
people should be able to do what they want with their own bodies, period. no justification needed to anyone else. whether others think they're making a mistake or not. it's their mistake to make. THEIR body, nobody else's. it's certainly any physician's right to refuse them a requested procedure for whatever reason, but that is their decision alone. there will always be somebody somewhere willing to assist. any procedure of this sort should be entirely at the expense of the person wanting it though, as should any related future expenses. i do consider it essentially cosmetic and unnecessary. so to summarize, in my view, any surgery of this sort should be provided to anybody who wants it for ANY reason. and there are definitely no "better" reasons than any others. i do not believe in dysmorphia or any sort of psychology nonsense.

[saltedcaramel64]

@Kawaharu you said your piece here and in other threads.  We all know your opinion now.  Now why don't you go back to playing modern warfare?  Because you sure as hell are not changing any minds.

[Kawaharu]

6 hours ago, saltedcaramel64 said:

@Kawaharu you said your piece here and in other threads.  We all know your opinion now.  Now why don't you go back to playing modern warfare?  Because you sure as hell are not changing any minds.

What a dude and you wonder why incontinent folks and disabled folks  don’t want to do anything with you people. Keep it up cause your creating more division between the ABDL and incontinent community. 

[DailyDi]

21 hours ago, Kawaharu said:

And this why incontinent folks don’t like people like you appropriating their disability. 

DD welcomes all who love diapers and "little" life. If you can't handle people who want to be incontinent please stay out of their sub forum!

[incondl]

1 hour ago, DailyDi said:

DD welcomes all who love diapers and "little" life. If you can't handle people who want to be incontinent please stay out of their sub forum!

You said it all. Thank you!

[AwakenEvil]

Holy shit what did I just read. Reminds me of the guy I banned several years ago when he was pushing his whole narrative that all ABDL community should fuck themselves up so they are diaper dependent disregarding all the medical complications that come with that mess.

The whole notion of medically altering your body is just disturbing at a minimum to achieve your perfection of your ABDL is just stupid. It would be no different for someone with body images removing body parts to achieve a look or different lifestyle. Imagine someone saying they can only be happy if they didn't have use of their limbs and had them surgeries to remove their limbs you'd say they are insane.

[Ferix]

45 minutes ago, AwakenEvil said:

Holy shit what did I just read. Reminds me of the guy I banned several years ago when he was pushing his whole narrative that all ABDL community should fuck themselves up so they are diaper dependent disregarding all the medical complications that come with that mess.

The whole notion of medically altering your body is just disturbing at a minimum to achieve your perfection of your ABDL is just stupid. It would be no different for someone with body images removing body parts to achieve a look or different lifestyle. Imagine someone saying they can only be happy if they didn't have use of their limbs and had them surgeries to remove their limbs you'd say they are insane.

@AwakenEvil, removed the report

 

Your comment here doesn't show any understanding of our stance.

[AwakenEvil]

19 minutes ago, Ferix said:

@AwakenEvil,

 

Your comment here doesn't show any understanding of our stance.

Sorry. I had several people. Meant to send that to another. My bad. I was using my mobile phone to send. You're good.

19 minutes ago, Ferix said:

@AwakenEvil, removed the report

 

Your comment here doesn't show any understanding of our stance.

I don't need to understand your stance on this subject. The fact is as I stated. I find it odd anyone would wish to medically make themselves incontinent thus fulfilling some ABDL Kink desire. It's not healthy by any means.