Has anyone else’s sphincter muscle defaulted back to relaxed? Can you still close it? For how long?

[Enthusi]

I’m just curious if others have noticed along the way that their bladder muscles defaulted back to relaxed mode?  

If so how long did it take for the muscle to default back to relax?  Can you still  close the muscle?  Can you keep it closed for one minute? Five minutes? 30 min?   What if you feel the urge to go? Do you have to tell your body to hold it? To relax?   
 

[ozziebee]

I think mine is quite relaxed. This last week or so, my bladder feels like its quivering, and every 10 to 20 mins is slowly dribbles small amounts of urine. It’s rarely flooding, maybe a bit each morning (but then its been dribbling all night too). 

 

I try to close my muscle, but this action is slow, and when I realise its slow and end the effort, its back to relaxed again. 

 

Very weird sensations down there at present - not unpleasant but also sometimes not pleasant. 

 

Ive noticed that when my bowels are moving matter past my bladder, I’ll get a release of pee. So my bladder is being quite sensitive foe the moment. I can’t stop a bowel push either. 

 

Remember that sine wave thing I’ve been talking about all thia time?  My trajectory is on the steep slope downwards…

[Enthusi]

1 hour ago, ozziebee said:

I think mine is quite relaxed. This last week or so, my bladder feels like its quivering, and every 10 to 20 mins is slowly dribbles small amounts of urine. It’s rarely flooding, maybe a bit each morning (but then its been dribbling all night too). 

 

I try to close my muscle, but this action is slow, and when I realise its slow and end the effort, its back to relaxed again. 

 

Very weird sensations down there at present - not unpleasant but also sometimes not pleasant. 

 

Ive noticed that when my bowels are moving matter past my bladder, I’ll get a release of pee. So my bladder is being quite sensitive foe the moment. I can’t stop a bowel push either. 

 

Remember that sine wave thing I’ve been talking about all thia time?  My trajectory is on the steep slope downwards…

I totally get that “quivering” sensation.  Sometimes I have this tic-like need / sensation to close my sphincter muscle but it immediately snaps back open and I close it again and it snaps back open. I liken it to pumping the brakes in a car.   Does that make sense?  It’s hard to describe. 
 

And yes there are times when I clench down and try hard to keep it that way, only to notice a moment later that my mind has wandered and the muscle is relaxed.   Weird, yes, but not bad. 

[ppdude]

My sphincter is broken. About 25 years ago it went completely spastic. It tries to clamp down as hard as it can and at one time was very painful. When it gets tired, it releases and pee comes out. Because of that, I developed a leak which I still have to today although it has gotten "bigger" or more dumped into the diaper as time progresses. I still get urges  but they can't wait and I pee whatever it lets through immediately.  It varies from little to a lot with no warning. Just remember that it can take an awfully long time before it stops working and you start peeing uncontrollably.

 

[Enthusi]

33 minutes ago, ppdude said:

Just remember that it can take an awfully long time before it stops working and you start peeing uncontrollably.

Was that meant as a warning or a word of encouragement? ?. 
 

[oznl]

At this point for me it's a "sometimes" thing.  Occasionally, I'll get into this space where things have defaulted to "open".  I will drip and dribble down there and it seems like just some kind of monumental effort to try and stop that.

Then, all by itself, sometime later I'll realise that things have clenched up again and I've no idea when that happened.

Irrespective of whether I'm open or closed, I'm certainly noticing that phase changes are very slow down there now and peeing events are so drippy and dribbly that they are nowhere near normal.

I guess I'm kind of "half baked" incontinent at the moment during the day.

[Stroller]

I taught my sphincter to default to being relaxed over a few months once I went full-time.  To be honest I didn't find it too hard to do - I just had to keep on remembering.  After a few months it was the default.  I generally get a few seconds' warning that I'm about to wet, but then it just happens of its own accord.  At night I wake up to wet, but then it just starts with little or no warning.  I've never tried to stop it, so I've no idea whether I've got any control remaining.  It's not important to me as I'm going to be wearing full-time for life now.

[bobbyc]

20 hours ago, ozziebee said:

18 hours ago, Enthusi said:

I totally get that “quivering” sensation.  Sometimes I have this tic-like

Remember that sine wave thing I’ve been talking about all thia time?  My trajectory is on the steep slope downwards…

Enthusi, yes, I often get that tic-tic-tic sensation.  Strange, but not bad.  Quite nice, actually.

Yes, Ozziebee, I think about that sine wave that you mentioned awhile back and I can relate to it.  I go through periods where there is basically no control, then periods where there is more control.  I am glad you mentioned it because it does help me to know what is going on.  Most people who write about this journey just have very defined all-or-nothing descriptions that make me a bit suspicious of their story.

[Enthusi]

1 hour ago, bobbyc said:

Yes, Ozziebee, I think about that sine wave that you mentioned awhile back and I can relate to it.  I go through periods where there is basically no control, then periods where there is more control.  I am glad you mentioned it because it does help me to know what is going on.  Most people who write about this journey just have very defined all-or-nothing descriptions that make me a bit suspicious of their story.

I can personally attest it’s not an all or nothing deal.  

[DiapergirlWB]

I am pretty well conditioned at this point that I am pretty much open at all times.  With concentration I can close but it requires conscious thought.  I pretty much wet small amounts during the day all day and have very little notice of when it happens.  At night it's getting confusing, sometimes I wake then immediately start to wet sometimes I'm not sure if i woke then wet or if the wetting woke me up.  Hopefully soon there won't be any waking at all.

 

[Wet Tony]

In my case, my bladder is particularly strong. When it reaches capacity it’s going to empty NOW, and trying to hold was an increasingly losing proposition. I gave up trying and now the process is so automatic I pee without any warning. 

[ppdude]

58 minutes ago, Wet Tony said:

In my case, my bladder is particularly strong. When it reaches capacity it’s going to empty NOW, and trying to hold was an increasingly losing proposition. I gave up trying and now the process is so automatic I pee without any warning. 

That's a big 10-4 buddy. Happened just as this topic showed up on the screen! Must be karma.

 

[babykeiff]

When one reverts to the pre toilet training level of diaper dependence, the bladder tends not to expand when full. This changes the urinary process slightly

The normal process is that the bladder slowly fills, and when it gets full, a number of signals are sent to the brain. These include that the bladder is full (approx 50-100ml). The brains response in a toilet trained person is to close the internal / external sphincter, increase a chemical production to reduce the water levels in the urine being produced and send the alarm that you need to void. This alarm is being supressed and the bladder begins to stretch. When the value gets close to approx. 400ml, the alarm signal gets greater and greater. If you are asleep, this can wake some. When the value gets to 600ml, the bladder pressure is stronger than the sphincters and the body relaxes sphincters.

I personally hate the term normal as it tend to group each of us into a normal / not normal box as if there is something wrong in being unique. - so for that, I apologize 

If you chose to be diaper dependent, the sphincters go into a state of relaxation. As a result, the bladder doesn't expand and the brain does not get the alarm signal to void. Since this muscle is not expanding, it becomes thick and weak and starts to spasm in response to filling. So when the urine level gets high enough, one dribbles etc. This can be restricted by kinks in the urethra. This then can cause the bladder to try and expand but due to its thickness, cannot. The mind, unaware of the trigger that it needs to void - they are comming and going - it tries to sate its need and contracts the bladder, which because the bladder has reduced, this really does nothing. The bladder spasms and leaks.

This can be reversed with intensive training and the bladder will, with excersise, began to expand again which will restart the same bladder fill, expand, void process.

The longer this state of relaxed voiding occurs, the more the bladder muscle will spasm until it over tires and stops. Over years like this reduce the ability for the bladder to move which will athropy, and this then becomes permenant. One hopes that when the bladder athropies, the internal bladder sphincter is fully open. Otherwise, one will need medical intervention to void - as there is now, no signal (the expanding bladder) to open the internal bladder sphincter. The external urinary sphincter is still getting the signal - the trigger is the sense of pressure / urine on same. Hopefully the athropy of the bladder and internal sphincter does not effect the external sphincter.

For safe diaper dependance, one has to follow the behaviour of a pre toilet trained baby - ie void when the triggers are given both bladder and bowel reguardless the state of diaper, where you are, what you are doing, and if you are/not wearing a diaper etc - fully accept that this behaviour of voiding at your bodies whims is what is expected of you. This means that the processes are running as normal, and the bladder / bowels will not athrophy and it is the subcontious that is no longer telling the conscious mind of the need to void as it no longer need to. Some, incorrectly, call this reflex incontinence but actually, it is reflex diaper dependence.

[babykeiff]

1 hour ago, Wet Tony said:

In my case, my bladder is particularly strong. When it reaches capacity it’s going to empty NOW, and trying to hold was an increasingly losing proposition. I gave up trying and now the process is so automatic I pee without any warning. 

In your case, you have reverted to the pre toilet training of a baby. The relevant muscles are working, but you chose to void. This should not cause you issue, but remember, the bowels will follow suit as this type of voiding is part of an early learned process that is ingrained in your mind - one of your earliest memories.

Pre toilet trained children (babies) were trained to void to their bodies whims, and they did that for the best part of two plus years. You are wetting to your bodies whims following the same process. Babies also filled their diapers to their bodies whims following the same ignore / not care / know process. The triggers to filling their diapers is the introduction of food - most babies fill their diapers either while being fed or shortly afterwards. This is an intrinsict response that empties from their bowels to their stomach so they can process a meal. Their bowels are usually not full, but anything that is placed in their bowels is pushed into their diapers via perastatic action. In toilet trained people, this action is reversed in the lower intestine to limit the amount within the bowels, and the need to void... but since the body is ignoring the bladder (from the first learned process), it tends to follow this process with the bowels.

Some here have correctly identified that when they follow the  month diaper program, their bowels empty multiple times a day either during or shortly after a meal. This is due to the bodies cancellation of the reverse perastatic action, and that the bowels anal sphincter is partially relaxed. This also means that the reabsorbtion of liquid in the lower intestine is reduced, and that the poop is softer. The anal sphincter can't hold back liquid, and the mind follows its early learnt behaviour of relaxing same an allowing the poop to fill the diaper.

... which is probably the behaviour most aspiring adult babies want... but again, be carefull what you wish for - it is liable to become true.

[BabyBoi91]

47 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

When one reverts to the pre toilet training level of diaper dependence, the bladder tends not to expand when full. This changes the urinary process slightly

The normal process is that the bladder slowly fills, and when it gets full, a number of signals are sent to the brain. These include that the bladder is full (approx 50-100ml). The brains response in a toilet trained person is to close the internal / external sphincter, increase a chemical production to reduce the water levels in the urine being produced and send the alarm that you need to void. This alarm is being supressed and the bladder begins to stretch. When the value gets close to approx. 400ml, the alarm signal gets greater and greater. If you are asleep, this can wake some. When the value gets to 600ml, the bladder pressure is stronger than the sphincters and the body relaxes sphincters.

I personally hate the term normal as it tend to group each of us into a normal / not normal box as if there is something wrong in being unique. - so for that, I apologize 

If you chose to be diaper dependent, the sphincters go into a state of relaxation. As a result, the bladder doesn't expand and the brain does not get the alarm signal to void. Since this muscle is not expanding, it becomes thick and weak and starts to spasm in response to filling. So when the urine level gets high enough, one dribbles etc. This can be restricted by kinks in the urethra. This then can cause the bladder to try and expand but due to its thickness, cannot. The mind, unaware of the trigger that it needs to void - they are comming and going - it tries to sate its need and contracts the bladder, which because the bladder has reduced, this really does nothing. The bladder spasms and leaks.

This can be reversed with intensive training and the bladder will, with excersise, began to expand again which will restart the same bladder fill, expand, void process.

The longer this state of relaxed voiding occurs, the more the bladder muscle will spasm until it over tires and stops. Over years like this reduce the ability for the bladder to move which will athropy, and this then becomes permenant. One hopes that when the bladder athropies, the internal bladder sphincter is fully open. Otherwise, one will need medical intervention to void - as there is now, no signal (the expanding bladder) to open the internal bladder sphincter. The external urinary sphincter is still getting the signal - the trigger is the sense of pressure / urine on same. Hopefully the athropy of the bladder and internal sphincter does not effect the external sphincter.

For safe diaper dependance, one has to follow the behaviour of a pre toilet trained baby - ie void when the triggers are given both bladder and bowel reguardless the state of diaper, where you are, what you are doing, and if you are/not wearing a diaper etc - fully accept that this behaviour of voiding at your bodies whims is what is expected of you. This means that the processes are running as normal, and the bladder / bowels will not athrophy and it is the subcontious that is no longer telling the conscious mind of the need to void as it no longer need to. Some, incorrectly, call this reflex incontinence but actually, it is reflex diaper dependence.

Some of this is correct, but not all.

Infant elimination is actually all reflexive. It’s handled by the spinal cord/sacral plexus and is a complex reflex that doesn’t even involve the brain (similar to how the “knee jerk” is mediated through the spinal cord and doesn’t require the brain). 
 

Part of growing up is that the brain is able to suppress “primitive” reflexes. And allow the prefrontal cortex to take control. And like you said, after a while things become basically automatic. 

what OP is describing is primarily trainingsrelaxation as a resting state, like you said. But it also does involve some disuse atrophy.  It’s why you see elderly patients develop incontinence if put into diapers for incorrect, but they can be “retrained” over several months if helped. 
 

atrophy can happen very quickly . If you have the flu and stay in bed for 3 days, you will have some mild atrophy that would affect you if you tried to go the gym or run a few days later, even if you felt 100%.

Atrophy is rarely permanent unless there is a neurolological cause or some other injury causing it. that said, the longer it exists the longer it can take a muscle to get back to normal.  
 

and to answer OP, I am def here. I drip most of the day/night. And it take A LOT of  effort to close it, but even then it doesn’t stay closed.  I found personal meditation / self-hypnosis to really helpful with this. 

 

[babykeiff]

1 hour ago, BabyBoi91 said:

...Infant elimination is actually all reflexive. It’s handled by the spinal cord/sacral plexus and is a complex reflex that doesn’t even involve the brain (similar to how the “knee jerk” is mediated through the spinal cord and doesn’t require the brain). 
 

Some of infant voiding is reflexive, but as the infant mind develops, the infant mind reacts to the need to void. This is where you see infants fussing before voiding, and where the 'Natural Toilet Training' , 'Diaper Free Baby Training' and elimination communication gains ground. An infant is aware of its need to void, but because some are diapered, comforted before the voiding, and awarded via praise after the voiding, the infant learns that it is to void in its diapers without informing another. This becomes habit forming, and then behavioural. 

By the time a baby is going to be toilet trained (2+ years later), the reflexive behaviour you refer to is now behavioural and fully controlled by the mind.

1 hour ago, BabyBoi91 said:

Part of growing up is that the brain is able to suppress “primitive” reflexes. And allow the prefrontal cortex to take control. And like you said, after a while things become basically automatic. 

This also relys on knowledge, what the baby does not have, and its training. Most of what a baby learns is self thought based on the development of its brain. It is not until the baby learns communication of some form or another does the speed of knowledge aquisition increase. This is misinformation that was believed for years in the medical industry. The current level of belief is that a baby pre communication developes parts of its brain based on information observed - following that thinking, Einstien logically must have been surrounded by very intelligent people, and his brain developed to adapt to that information.

A baby, pre birth, has bladder/bowel control. Post birth, will void by reflex while the brain adapts to the now new environment. The brain takes over, the baby will fuss when it needs to void. One of the first pieces of data the baby learns is to void on its bodies whims. This information is well burried within the brain.  

I simplified the  parts of the brain into two contious and subcontious, the number is based on the level of knowledge, the level of your reading of current articles, and your knowledge of the relevant specialists and theorists in the field of neurosurgery.

1 hour ago, BabyBoi91 said:

It’s why you see elderly patients develop incontinence if put into diapers for incorrect...

Yes, it is true that some elderly paitent might start voiding in a diaper if placed into same. This is about compliance with instruction rather that them developing an actual need. Some institutions give the instruction that the paitent must be assisted by an aide to the bathroom, and restict the number of aides available. This means that the paitent is being left, unaided in a bed / chair rather than being assisted to the toilet.

It is where that age group usually listen to a so called specialist without question and/or the logic to work out that the rules enforced plus the lack of staff means that they will have to use the diaper for its purpose. It is the way they were taught to respect their elders. This is also an issue in medicine worldwide, where commonly elder paitents do not query their treatment plan. A portion of these will ask, what they presume as an expert, a care nurse rather than their male doctor about the diapers. This is where gender similar doctors are required for certain paitents. The larger the age difference between the paitent and the doctor, the less trust that the paitent gives the doctor. This is prevelant with a young male doctor taking care of an elderly female paitent - and visa versa, and usually the care assistant that is closer to the age of the elderly paitent is given more trust and respect.

1 hour ago, BabyBoi91 said:

atrophy can happen very quickly . If you have the flu and stay in bed for 3 days, you will have some mild atrophy that would affect you if you tried to go the gym or run a few days later, even if you felt 100%.

Muscles, if not used will weaken, that part is true, but after an illness, your energy level is reduced since your body has expended a lot on the recovery from the illness. This energy is taken from what is not being used, and since the body is a canibal, it will eat itself (called sacrafice) to survive an illness. This is a well know process and is assisted in a hospital setting with IVs depending on the paitent / illness etc. You, as the paitent, will find yourself weak as will your muscle density be less than before you becaqme infected. 

1 hour ago, BabyBoi91 said:

Atrophy is rarely permanent unless there is a neurolological cause or some other injury causing it. that said, the longer it exists the longer it can take a muscle to get back to normal.

Athropy occurs due to disuse and IS permenant. In simple terms, the assoiated blood vessles narrow due to deposits on the walls and reduced blood flow. This eventually closes completely - which denies the relevant muscle from nutrients. The muscle dies and is dead.

Dead is not curable, unless you have found a solution to that - if so, PLEASE SHARE

[Mindylou]

On 1/29/2022 at 3:30 AM, Stroller said:

I taught my sphincter to default to being relaxed over a few months once I went full-time.  To be honest I didn't find it too hard to do - I just had to keep on remembering.  After a few months it was the default.  I generally get a few seconds' warning that I'm about to wet, but then it just happens of its own accord.  At night I wake up to wet, but then it just starts with little or no warning.  I've never tried to stop it, so I've no idea whether I've got any control remaining.  It's not important to me as I'm going to be wearing full-time for life now.

This is me too exactly!!