Why does it seem like there are more incontinence gatekeepers on the internet than in real life?

[Enthusi]

I’m not saying it’s good or bad.  I’m just curious.  Is it a Sample bias?  Bad experience with ABDLs?  A desire to maintain a gated community?   An assumption that incontinence must cause suffering for it to count?  Or am I off the mark on this one?  

I recently posted on an incontinence forum on a different website about how in I assumed my bladder control was normal to begin with.  I got the idea after reading a different thread where someone said they were never good at sensing their bladder filling.   I never knew that was a thing. But my whole life I’ve had a weird relationship with my bladder.  I clearly remember being terrified of accidents and was always running to the bathroom and I would drain a full bladder.   It’s like I was in constant reactive mode. That’s would explain why it felt burdensome to maintain control.    Because it was assumed my bladder control was normal and I do have abdl tendencies, I never considered that other people get a more warning than I do that the have to go.   

And oh my goodness.  Some people were supportive. But there were a vocal few who made it clear that it it’s impossible to become incontinent from untraining (it absolutely is. See: Functional incontinence and spiraling). They accused me of rewriting my narrative to say I was incontinent the whole time (I never said that. I said maintaining continence was perhaps more difficult for me than I gave myself credit for). They implied I was undeserving of sympathy (I never asked for sympathy).    One person told me this belongs in fiction (it doesn’t), several people told me this doesn’t belong here.   
 

The crazy thing is that if you go to any urologist or primary care doctor and say that you suspect there might be some sensory issues that would explain why bladder control is difficult for you, they’d take it at face value.   I know this because I’ve literally said to my urologist who I see for urinary incontinence.    He nodded and agreed and went on to discuss various treatment options and other topics.  
 

I’ve disclosed my bladder control issues to several trusted friends and family, and trust me never once has anyone even thought of calling me out.  I didn’t mention the ABDL stuff, but even if I did, I strongly suspect they still wouldn’t question.  To be fair incontinence doesn’t come up in discussion that much.   Turns out most people don’t really care that much how good or bad you are at controlling your pee, and how it came to be that way.  

Let me be clear: I get that people suffer from incontinence and they need a community space free of fetishists using them for masturbation material.   I fully support gatekeeping  in that situation because it is inappropriate.   

Help me understand it.  I’m sure the people on that incontinence support forum had their reasons to demonize me for what I thought was a message in support of other incontinent folks like me.    

Either way I’m thankful for this lovely group. ❤️

Also… I’m  curious others thoughts on if there is a *possible* sensory predisposition that would explain why some of us ABDLs prefer to be incontinent. But that’s a different convo different day. 
 

 

[zzyzx]

47 minutes ago, Enthusi said:

And I’m curious others thoughts on if there is a *possible* sensory predisposition that would explain why some of us ABDLs prefer to be incontinent. But that’s a different convo different day. 

@Enthusi: Maybe not where you planned this thread to go, but....

I've known since (mid) elementary school that how I sense things is different from "normal" or "average", starting with pain..... 

While I won't say I was wanting incontinence, a piece of my was scared / expecting something to happen at some point in time...  And when the combination of things hit that started the bed-wetting, so it came true.....  And that was before I knew about ABDL / diaper fetish, etc....  Found out about that once I started looking for how to handle the problem....

While sensory issues weren't discussed / brought up by doctors as I was growing up, I see what I have is now on the list of items associated with neurodiversity and autism spectrum.  So, you may have similar "fun" with current definitions knowing what you know now.

[Enthusi]

8 minutes ago, zzyzx said:

@Enthusi: Maybe not where you planned this thread to go, but....

I've known since (mid) elementary school that how I sense things is different from "normal" or "average", starting with pain..... 

While I won't say I was wanting incontinence, a piece of my was scared / expecting something to happen at some point in time...  And when the combination of things hit that started the bed-wetting, so it came true.....  And that was before I knew about ABDL / diaper fetish, etc....  Found out about that once I started looking for how to handle the problem....

While sensory issues weren't discussed / brought up by doctors as I was growing up, I see what I have is now on the list of items associated with neurodiversity and autism spectrum.  So, you may have similar "fun" with current definitions knowing what you know now.

Oh I forgot to mention above, yeah I have rip roaring adhd and more than my share of anxiety.   And wouldn’t you know it, the brain and body are connected.   Funny thing is that I did mention adhd in my post on that forum and someone also dismissed that as a bogus excuse.   For others like me and you, we know it’s not. 

[munkey]

I have seen that similar reaction. 🤭 I think that’s people for you.  Those people for what ever reason say that, even though a doctor warned me, “if you use diapers for you IBS, you may find you’ll need them permanently”; that was 17 years ago
 

I’ve been in diapees for almost 7 years.  When I started wearing permanently, I had already had bowel accidents throughout my life and was diagnosed IBS.  I did not have urinary issues.  Now, I have urge urinary incontinence, as in I can’t make it to the bathroom without leaking.  I’ve been tested and doctors couldn’t tell me why.  The interesting part… I never set out to untrain… it just kinda happened.

So while I see what some people say, my experience… IS SO different from theirs, that it’s not possible. Even though it is and I’m currently living it.

Some humans are not as open as others. 🤭

[DiapergirlWB]

     I've noticed this a lot on any diaper forum I've been on.  There are people who just have a need to feel superior to others by yucking their yums or by trying to be in control of a 'thing'.    They have a narrow definition of incontinence and any variant is false.  It gives them some kind of feeling of control and strength i guess?  In my book if you can't help but wet or mess yourself either from training or from physical lack you are incontinent.

[Little Sherri]

10 hours ago, Enthusi said:

Let me be clear: I get that people suffer from incontinence and they need a community space free of fetishists using them for masturbation material.   I fully support gatekeeping  in that situation because it is inappropriate.   

I think this is the crux of it. For at least a portion of the incontinence community, their situation feels like a curse, that was in no way self-imposed or wished for, so for them, people who envy their "defective plumbing" are the equivalent of disability fetishists who would roll around a mall in a wheelchair just to enjoy being helpless and assisted with doors or what have you. And, they definitely don't want to be conflated with incontinence or diaper fetishists themselves, so they have a visceral reaction to anything that smells like that. I would liken it to age play & diaper fetishists reacting to people who are underage in chat rooms and such - the response is immediate and harsh, because they generally hate being conflated with people who prey on minors, so they want kids out of the room, pronto. 

I don't know that there is any way to change this. There are people who will never accept the "legitimacy" of any incontinence that isn't the result of a verifiable physiological process. They probably need their spaces, and we need ours. Our spaces are open to the open-minded among them, but someone who goes into one of our forums or chat rooms and says "You're all pretenders living in a fantasy land" also gets shouted down pretty quickly. On the other hand, people who have been involuntarily stricken with incontinence, but then try to figure out a way to live with it, and who start to enjoy the whimsical, high-quality breadth of ABDL product offerings, are always welcome here. 

In my opinion, it's their loss, if they want to keep their world small and strictly policed. Ours is bigger and more open, and our diapers work better, and we are experts at enjoying life, whereas many of them just want to talk about how awful it is.

I recall reading an article a while back about a lady who suffered a spinal injury as a result of being assaulted during a robbery, who was delivering a victim impact statement on her experience. She said that her life had been ruined, because although she had regained her mobility, she was now living with urinary incontinence, and as a result, could not leave the house, could not enjoy time with her friends, couldn't go on vacations, and could barely even do her own shopping. I thought to myself, wow, I know some people - you people - who could really help this lady out of this dark place she finds herself in, if only there were a way to build a bridge between her and us. I am fortunate to not have sustained a spinal injury, but regardless, myself or any number of you could sure coach this lady on how to live a full life while wearing plastic underpants. 

[DiapergirlWB]

So i Get if you are involuntarily incon not wanting to hang out with ABDL.  They do have their own space here but so many come into our space to bash and gatekeep and that is also inappropriate.  If our desire offends you don't come in here.  What I do does not effect them in any way so i really do not care how my desires make them feel when I am posting in an appropriate forum. 

[spacedlittle]

On 4/3/2024 at 12:08 AM, Enthusi said:

I’m not saying it’s good or bad.  I’m just curious.  Is it a Sample bias?  Bad experience with ABDLs?  A desire to maintain a gated community?   An assumption that incontinence must cause suffering for it to count?  Or am I off the mark on this one?  

I recently posted on an incontinence forum on a different website about how in I assumed my bladder control was normal to begin with.  I got the idea after reading a different thread where someone said they were never good at sensing their bladder filling.   I never knew that was a thing. But my whole life I’ve had a weird relationship with my bladder.  I clearly remember being terrified of accidents and was always running to the bathroom and I would drain a full bladder.   It’s like I was in constant reactive mode. That’s would explain why it felt burdensome to maintain control.    Because it was assumed my bladder control was normal and I do have abdl tendencies, I never considered that other people get a more warning than I do that the have to go.   

And oh my goodness.  Some people were supportive. But there were a vocal few who made it clear that it it’s impossible to become incontinent from untraining (it absolutely is. See: Functional incontinence and spiraling). They accused me of rewriting my narrative to say I was incontinent the whole time (I never said that. I said maintaining continence was perhaps more difficult for me than I gave myself credit for). They implied I was undeserving of sympathy (I never asked for sympathy).    One person told me this belongs in fiction (it doesn’t), several people told me this doesn’t belong here.   
 

The crazy thing is that if you go to any urologist or primary care doctor and say that you suspect there might be some sensory issues that would explain why bladder control is difficult for you, they’d take it at face value.   I know this because I’ve literally said to my urologist who I see for urinary incontinence.    He nodded and agreed and went on to discuss various treatment options and other topics.  
 

I’ve disclosed my bladder control issues to several trusted friends and family, and trust me never once has anyone even thought of calling me out.  I didn’t mention the ABDL stuff, but even if I did, I strongly suspect they still wouldn’t question.  To be fair incontinence doesn’t come up in discussion that much.   Turns out most people don’t really care that much how good or bad you are at controlling your pee, and how it came to be that way.  

Let me be clear: I get that people suffer from incontinence and they need a community space free of fetishists using them for masturbation material.   I fully support gatekeeping  in that situation because it is inappropriate.   

Help me understand it.  I’m sure the people on that incontinence support forum had their reasons to demonize me for what I thought was a message in support of other incontinent folks like me.    

Either way I’m thankful for this lovely group. ❤️

Also… I’m  curious others thoughts on if there is a *possible* sensory predisposition that would explain why some of us ABDLs prefer to be incontinent. But that’s a different convo different day. 
 

 

I left that site over the way they treated you. Here seems so much better

[Enthusi]

On 4/4/2024 at 12:28 AM, spacedlittle said:

I left that site over the way they treated you. Here seems so much better

To be fair there are a lot of decent open minded folks on that website, just as there are some closed-minded folks here.     

But yeah, if some of the people on that forum only knew what you and I know…

On 4/3/2024 at 11:22 AM, Little Sherri said:

In my opinion, it's their loss, if they want to keep their world small and strictly policed. Ours is bigger and more open, and our diapers work better, and we are experts at enjoying life, whereas many of them just want to talk about how awful it is.

 

 I never thought of it that way before.  😍  I think I took the positive affirming atmosphere here for granted when I branched out. 

[SoggyFroggy]

Chronically online people like to gatekeep things.

I'm on Tumblr and see all kinds of ridiculous bullshit gatekeeping, same for TikTok.

Quote

I think this is the crux of it. For at least a portion of the incontinence community, their situation feels like a curse, that was in no way self-imposed or wished for, so for them, people who envy their "defective plumbing" are the equivalent of disability fetishists who would roll around a mall in a wheelchair just to enjoy being helpless and assisted with doors or what have you.

Yeah that's part of it as well, to be fair.

However, I do want to correct you a little bit on one point: as a person who struggles with Body Integrity Dysphoria (BID), simulating a disability does not always mean the person has a fetish for being disabled or for being seen as such. Some people with BID simulate the disability or disabilities that they need. For example, a person with a BID-based need/feeling of needing to be paraplegic may use a wheelchair; another person with it may feel a need to be mute, and may chose not to speak, and instead use sign language or a communication device (such as using a tablet to talk.)

I don't wish to start any arguments here, it's just a small little thing that bothered me enough to address it.

[oznl]

On 4/3/2024 at 2:08 PM, Enthusi said:

Let me be clear: I get that people suffer from incontinence and they need a community space free of fetishists using them for masturbation material.   I fully support gatekeeping  in that situation because it is inappropriate.  

There is absolutely no doubt that many ABDL are indeed fetishists: just not all of them.  ABDL in general is pretty obscure so the 1% of us probably don't get a lot of mind-share.

24 minutes ago, SoggyFroggy said:

However, I do want to correct you a little bit on one point: as a person who struggles with Body Integrity Dysphoria (BID), simulating a disability does not always mean the person has a fetish for being disabled or for being seen as such.

Yep, I think that's the "1%" club 🤣  I think it would be nigh on impossible to indulge a "fetish" 24 hours per day, 7 days per week for years, like trying to live on chocolate.

On 4/3/2024 at 2:08 PM, Enthusi said:

I’m not saying it’s good or bad.  I’m just curious.  Is it a Sample bias?  Bad experience with ABDLs?  A desire to maintain a gated community?   An assumption that incontinence must cause suffering for it to count?  Or am I off the mark on this one? 

Overtly, you’re question seems to be “why do so many refuse to accept the legitimacy of my incontinence?” but to me the flip side of that question-coin might be “why is it so important that others recognise my incontinence as legitimate?”

I don’t have an answer for that question either by the way…

On 4/4/2024 at 1:22 AM, Little Sherri said:

I recall reading an article a while back about a lady who suffered a spinal injury as a result of being assaulted during a robbery, who was delivering a victim impact statement on her experience. She said that her life had been ruined, because although she had regained her mobility, she was now living with urinary incontinence, and as a result, could not leave the house, could not enjoy time with her friends, couldn't go on vacations, and could barely even do her own shopping. I thought to myself, wow, I know some people - you people - who could really help this lady out of this dark place she finds herself in, if only there were a way to build a bridge between her and us. I am fortunate to not have sustained a spinal injury, but regardless, myself or any number of you could sure coach this lady on how to live a full life while wearing plastic underpants. 

I’m guessing the same minefield of Freudian taboos and powerful societal mores that put us where we are, put the other 99.99% of the population where THEY are. 

Down here, most states have recently introduced voluntary dying laws allowing selected (usually terminally ill) people the chance to pull the plug on their own terms (a right that in principle I fully support).  I’ve been slightly stunned though, by the number of people who’ve cited their emergent need for nappies as a reason to pull that trigger.

It runs that deep.  I’d imagine it would be quite a polarising conversation to raise at a barbecue too.

[SoggyFroggy]

1 hour ago, oznl said:

Yep, I think that's the "1%" club 🤣  I think it would be nigh on impossible to indulge a "fetish" 24 hours per day, 7 days per week for years, like trying to live on chocolate.

Yeah, it's rare you'd see a person simulating a disability just for a "fetish." It's usually to alleviate severe, underlying dysphoria with their body and how it's configured.

Sorry to harp on it a lot here btw, it's just something that I know not many people understand or know about.

 

1 hour ago, oznl said:

I’ve been slightly stunned though, by the number of people who’ve cited their emergent need for nappies as a reason to pull that trigger.

It runs that deep.  I’d imagine it would be quite a polarising conversation to raise at a barbecue too.

Same here! It's quite surprising how many people really feel like incontinence is something they can't live with. Especially as someone who has given so much thought (along with hours and hours of actual research involved to really understand it) about life with certain specific disabilities.

Also yeah, imagine raising such a conversation over a lunch of ribs, just... all the side-eyes I'd get lmao
I'm already awkward enough at social gatherings as-is, given my autism 😅

[Enthusi]

5 hours ago, SoggyFroggy said:

Same here! It's quite surprising how many people really feel like incontinence is something they can't live with. Especially as someone who has given so much thought (along with hours and hours of actual research involved to really understand it) about life with certain specific disabilities.

Thats the other thing that bugs me about how much hate I received for not suffering with incontinence. many of us here are freaking EXPERTS in the urinary tract system, and have an encyclopedic knowledge of incontinence, management, and treatment, and we are creative problem solvers who deal with a different type of stigma, and because we live it 24/7.   Like @Little Sherri said, their loss.  
 

 

[adhb]

I became incontinent as the result of an unexpected side effect of surgery when I was 14 years old in 1956. So I've now been living with bladder-control issues for 68 years. Becoming incontinent as a young teenager was devastating, in fact so devastating that I contemplated suicide. So I definitely understand how some people feel that incontinence has their lives. However, fortunately, I didn't kill myself. And I came to appreciate the sensuality that diapers can provide and realized that I did not have to suffer from incontinence and could to a degree even enjoy it. Unfortunately, many people living with incontinence never get beyond  the suffering stage.

[Babypants]

I'm 78, and have been incontinent since birth due to a spinal cord birth defect.  I have been counselling people in my community about incontinence for more than fifteen years, both informally and through outreach programs.  ADHB has gone to the heart of it.  On this site, threads over and over again discuss the definition of incontinence, and the variations (overflow, stress, urge, etc.), but there are more fundamental issues.  When dealing with the incontinent community, people on sites like this who are not incontinent need to be aware of the DABDA imperative.  We associate this with cancer (Denial / Anger / Bargaining / Depression / Acceptance), but it applies in a very direct way to those rendered incontinent by injury or illness.  I'm lucky, in the sense that being a lifelong incontinent I do not have to "unlearn" the continence lifestyle.  But this is exactly what happens to people who progress from diapers to pull-ups to underpants/panties.  Suddenly, everything that has applied to your daily life since early childhood is swept away, and you have to "unlearn" to clear the decks for "learning" to live with a disability that may be with you 24/7/365 until death.  The emotional toll on one's self-esteem can be as devastating as the physical.

So, when you go on a site devoted to incontinence, you should expect that individuals at different points on the DABDA scale on going to react to your comments differently.  Someone who has been in diapers for ten years has probably run the whole scale, but someone who has been at it for six months has not.  So, be patient, and above all don't be too quick to draw conclusions from the feedback your comments receive.  

[superabsorbantpolymer]

I will admit I have a sock puppet account that regularly gets very positive responses in an incontinence support forum. I am obsessed with diapers and incontinence and I am pretty sure I know more about incontinence than a lot of nurses at least lol. I give good advice to desperate people, I enjoy doing it. They'd ban me if they knew the reality. So I keep these accounts separate.

[Enthusi]

20 hours ago, Babypants said:

I'm 78, and have been incontinent since birth due to a spinal cord birth defect.  I have been counselling people in my community about incontinence for more than fifteen years, both informally and through outreach programs.  ADHB has gone to the heart of it.  On this site, threads over and over again discuss the definition of incontinence, and the variations (overflow, stress, urge, etc.), but there are more fundamental issues.  When dealing with the incontinent community, people on sites like this who are not incontinent need to be aware of the DABDA imperative.  We associate this with cancer (Denial / Anger / Bargaining / Depression / Acceptance), but it applies in a very direct way to those rendered incontinent by injury or illness.  I'm lucky, in the sense that being a lifelong incontinent I do not have to "unlearn" the continence lifestyle.  But this is exactly what happens to people who progress from diapers to pull-ups to underpants/panties.  Suddenly, everything that has applied to your daily life since early childhood is swept away, and you have to "unlearn" to clear the decks for "learning" to live with a disability that may be with you 24/7/365 until death.  The emotional toll on one's self-esteem can be as devastating as the physical.

So, when you go on a site devoted to incontinence, you should expect that individuals at different points on the DABDA scale on going to react to your comments differently.  Someone who has been in diapers for ten years has probably run the whole scale, but someone who has been at it for six months has not.  So, be patient, and above all don't be too quick to draw conclusions from the feedback your comments receive.  

</Thread> 

I have to say in the excessive time I spent ruminating on this perceived rejection*  I never considered this perspective.  You’re right,  I never went through the grief cycle, like so many others there did when they received the diagnosis of incontinence.  My experience was more of a relief cycle. 

*This get’s to @oznl’s Uno Reverse question asking me why I get so offended when accused of faking it.   The answer is quite simple: I wish I knew  myself!   It’s on my growing list of things to work through in therapy! 😂😬

[zzyzx]

30 minutes ago, Enthusi said:

</Thread> 

I have to say in the excessive time I spent ruminating on this perceived rejection*  I never considered this perspective.  You’re right,  I never went through the grief cycle, like so many others there did when they received the diagnosis of incontinence.  My experience was more of a relief cycle. 

*This get’s to @oznl’s Uno Reverse question asking me why I get so offended when accused of faking it.   The answer is quite simple: I wish I knew  myself!   It’s on my growing list of things to work through in therapy! 😂😬

One of the reasons I think your thread subject resonated with me is early on as I was trying to find answers and possible solutions for when occasional nocturia turned into occasional nocturnal enuresis, there were folks who found true / real life stories stranger than fiction and therefore must be fiction....  Its part of why I don't go in to details of how I broke too often....  Most folks it takes time.  I'd join the folks that would like to comment in this area "be careful what you wish for".  I wasn't wishing for this, but I definitely have been closer to breaking all my life than the average / typical / normal person.  So some (probably very few) out their will break a lot quicker with no way back than the "normal" person.  So, the gate keepers get over zealous at times and don't want to get items posted that are out of the normal.....How can they tell the fake from the real?

[BabyBoi91]

I have come to realize the Internet is filled with trolls who simply want to ruin anyone’s day, and “experts” who want to argue everything and immediately say why someone is wrong. 

I believe these kinds of people also don’t really live much outside the Internet, or if they do, they don’t function all that well with others. So, I’ve learned to stop taking anything on the Internet personally, and if someone does start personal attacks or just is outright rude, then I will be quick to ignore and move on. It’s not their fault they act this way, and these people aren’t even worth my emotional energy. 

That said, I think a lot of people simply “want to believe” whatever they want to believe. How many posts can you find (even here) with people extremely certain that “wearing diapers 24/7 won’t make you incontinent, just like wearing underwear won’t make you continent”? Peer reviewed journals already show us that’s not necessarily true. 
 

On the same token, people also have difficulty thinking beyond black and white. Either you “are” or “are not” continent. When really, medical specialists intentionally use scales to assess “levels of continence.” It’s not black and white. 
 

Lastly, it’s a common phenomenon that people can get angry if they see people happy with something they don’t like, don’t understand, or can’t have. So, they immediately piss in someone else’s cereal. It sounds like this is happening to you. 
 

And yes, I recently had the experience (not ABDL related) of talking to a doctor and learning that something I thought was normal my entire life was actually atypical. But when it’s your body and it’s how it works since you were a small child, you assume it’s just normal. 

[Princeoftoddlers]

This entire category does seem to be a strangely hot topic in the community. People will argue that it isn't possible to become diaper dependent and then others will argue that it is possible and I've seen it get pretty heated.

Then there are people like me who stumble upon these arguments on the forums as we're just simply looking for advice on how to achieve our goals and we already fully understand what we're signing up for and are well aware of the consequences of diaper training ourselves.

We've decided, as adults, that it is something that we genuinely want for ourselves and so we seek out forums about it only to get blind sided by people who are just wanting to argue with you about it with how it isn't possible or that it's self harm when so many people have given evidence that it is possible and provide entire backlogs of their journey and are happy with what they've done to themselves.

But it's like that doesn't exist because well I didn't see it happen and you're not ACTUALLY incontinent even though many people started un-training and are now unable to make it to the toilet even if they wanted to. Which is the definition of incontinent?

Personally I've been 24-7 for 4 months now and have definitely noticed changes in my pottying habits. I'm wetting far more frequently than I used to and dribbling without notice post voids. I even wet my bed last night without realizing it for the first time in many years. I guess I'm just imagining things though lol.

For those that claim we shouldn't do this because it's self harm, this is a life altering decision and will not happen overnight so that right there should separate the ones that just have a fetish or whatever for the idea of it and those that TRULY want this.

If you want to go there, then I'm allowed to criticize you for let's say, smoking. But that isn't my right to say what you can and can't do with your lungs now is it?

There are ways to safely achieve this. Just using diapers at the first sign of the urge to go 24-7 for months on end does seem to weaken the ability to hold it to the point where you eventually won't be able to get to the toilet.

Nothing else will happen, you're just now incontinent. There are far worse things you can do to yourself. They may technically be right that it is self harm in a way I suppose but it's your body so I don't see why anyone else should really care if this is something that you actually want to do. As with everything in life there are pros and cons.

 

The people who argue with you and criticize you for this are better off ignored. If you understand the consequences and are willing to be patient with yourself to achieve incontinence, then just keep using your diapers and keep yourself hydrated.