For those who untrained wetting, a question about bowel control

[Kaliborio]

If you successfully intentionally lost your wetting control, but did not try to — or tried not to — lose your messing control, how is your messing control doing now?

My reason for asking is noticing that basically nobody I know who completely lost only their wetting control seems to have retained complete messing control over the long term. This includes me but also several others I know. The timescale seems to vary; I am at the very early end, having started having messing accidents only a little more than a year after I went into diapers, but by a couple of years in pretty much everyone seems to have copped it to some degree.

A small fraction decided not to try to resist losing more bowel control. A smaller fraction, including me, did try but got nowhere (I'm fine with it now but it was unexpected and unplanned for at the time). However, even among the relatively large cohort of people who did resist it and did have success in doing so, basically everyone seems to have experience of unintentional messing and some sort of informal "messy diaper contingency plan". The median frequency of unplanned messy diapers seems to be a couple of times per year, which is not an overwhelming and devastating amount if you're in diapers, but is pretty significant given I would imagine the median annual frequency of unplanned messing in the undiapered, continent, non-AB/DL adult population must be on the order of ≤ 0.1.

If this has one or more common causes in everyone then I have some hypotheses about what they might be — primarily:

1. I suspect that bladder untraining weakens the pelvic floor and causes basically fairly severe stress incontinence. The pelvic floor muscles are also implicated in bowel control. Weakening the pelvic floor muscles would therefore presumably weaken bowel control.
2. I suspect that adequate protection for severe to total urinary incontinence takes significantly more effort and time to remove than underwear, increasing the probability that under conditions of urgency and with weakened intrinsic control you will not be able to successfully make it to the toilet.

If any of you folks have noticed similar problems then that would help me assess the validity of my hypotheses. If you haven't, that would also help me assess the validity of my hypotheses. Looking forward to your input.

[DiapergirlWB]

I have some insight on this.  I have managed a significant amount of mental diaper conditioning.  I can after a day or so in diapers pretty much turn off the subconcious hold reflex.  This results in pretty much automatic wetting.  Messing isn't really effected except when hit with urgency.  Normally I feel it coming and have ample time that I could hold it and make it to the potty.  But if I get hit with a loose or liquid bm without the hold reflex active I just start messing myself and it's too late to do anything about it.  I can't speak for others who have been in diapers for years and years but I suspect most of the accidents are similar to what I experience.  Others who have been in for long periods may have some weakening of the muscles where their hold times are significanly decreased and be unable to hold long enough to reach a toilet if not reasonably near one.

[DLJeff52]

Love the topic and thank you both for sharing! 

Here's my experience.  I'm a couple of days away from the 10 month mark of 24/7 diaper wearing.  I probably converted my goal from diaper dependence to intentionally untraining my bladder at the two month mark.  At about the three month mark I added the idea of not holding in any #2 as I thought it would expedite my loss of urinary control through weakening pelvic floor etc.  At the time, I didn't think about if that would also lead to bowel incontinence.  

My experience at month 10 is that the bowel incontinence is actually progressing faster than the urinary incontinence.  As @DiapergirlWB shared, just two days ago, I was sitting on the couch watching TV when my diaper started filling with loose bm.  No warning, no ability to stop it. While that was the first true "accident" I have had where there was absolutely no warning that anything was happening, I have noticed that my ability to stop an ongoing bm has deteriorated to almost none.  Most of the time, I still have some warning that a movement is about to occur.  If I really hurried to the bathroom, I could make it, but for now, I just use my diaper.  Once the movement begins, there is little pushing if any and little ability to stop the movement.  

While at first it sounded scary, at this point I don't mind.  I can change quickly and for as annoying as it can be at times when out in public or with people, flushable / disposable wipes, lotions and powder all make it not a big deal.  I do bring plastic bags for disposing of diapers in public as a courtesy to those who use the restroom and clean it when in public.

So as far as your hypothesis goes, my experience to date would support it.  The only anomaly to my experience was that I actively chose not to clench my sphincter muscles for either #1 or #2 as a way to increase the rate of pelvic floor deterioration, do my bowel deterioration is probably proceeding faster than someone who is actively trying not to lose that control as they work on urinary incontinence.

 

[oznl]

I guess I’d have to preface my response that despite 3.5 years of 24/7, my daytime wetting control is merely degraded rather than absent albeit to the point where nappies are necessary for practicality for many tasks and my job.

My intention was to retain bowel control and this I have so far done however there has clearly been some collateral damage here.

My usual clockwork-like regularity has become disrupted and I find holding more difficult than before.  I’ve found myself having to pull down a nappy to “take care of business” in out-of-band events.  I've also more frequently been voiding more than once per day (both change times).

There have on occasion been “accidents”.  These have usually arisen from some kind of aggravating circumstance (typically a loose bowel movement).  On a handful of these occasions, I’ve lost control and filled a nappy which has been suitably gross.  It’s not the “neat” bowel movements that defeat control.

It’s still not clear in my mind if I would have soiled myself had I not been wearing a nappy.  There’s an internal talk-track in my head telling me that “You’re in a nappy anyway and on your own, you can do this, get comfortable and sort it later…”  There's no doubt that being in a nappy lowers the bar for me with this kind of event.

The headline though is that there appears to have been some unplanned and co-incident reduction in bowel control although under normal circumstances, I can remain bowel continent.  I also suspect that by retaining bowel control, I have slowed loss of urinary control but unplanned dirty nappies aren't really an option for me.

[Little Sherri]

Interesting question. I'm half a year or so behind @oznl in the 24/7 parade, and I am definitely NOT seeking to lose any control in the #2 department. That said, I've been in diapers for a bit more than 3 years, and, I've messed myself maybe three times involuntarily, one of which was while I was sleeping. None corelated to any dramatic illness, although suspect chicken may have played somewhat of a roll in one event. As said above, you don't tend to lose control of perfectly-formed extrusions.

Prior to putting myself into diapers 24/7, in the previous 20 years, I messed my pants zero times. Even when I got food poisoning in the tropics, I managed to make it to the throne, mostly because I spent 3 days within 20 steps of it. 

[oznl]

15 minutes ago, Little Sherri said:

Prior to putting myself into diapers 24/7, in the previous 20 years, I messed my pants zero times.

I think there's the answer...  I can't remember pooping my pants before nappies and now I can reel of a couple of examples.

The next question in my mind is whether the advent of occasional messy accidents is a product of degraded control or is it rather that the opportunity cost of giving in to the voiding urge is substantially reduced by being diapered?

[Little Sherri]

The one I banged off in my sleep perplexed me. It correlated with a bedwetting incident. I think maybe I somewhat needed to go in both directions, and the training I've been subjecting my subconscious to, with respect to how permissible it is to let #1 take place with no reporting, while the executive suites are dark, bled or generalized over to the other circuit's chain of command. "I hear you guys over in plant #1 can just discharge whenever you feel like it...."

"Yup, seems to be fine with the CEO."

"We still run everything up the chain."

"We have the same boss, man. I think you guys are being paranoid. Try it. I'll bet it's fine." 

The one related to bad chicken could, I think, be explained by the fact that I had a diaper on and my inhibitions were down. I would probably have risked a colon rupture, were I wearing a Speedo at a pool party when that urge struck me. Although my wife would have killed me that night for wearing a Speedo. Whereas in a big plastic diaper, well, I was going to bin it eventually, anyway... although the cleanup is always off-putting. 

The other one just kind of got away from me. I was holding it, wanted it to wait until I was in a convenient location, also had to pee, and was annoyed that I was kind of holding both, and at some point, I tried to open the gates on #1, and everything happened all at once. Not a complete loss of control, just an "incident", but one that that required a new diaper. 

[WBxx]

12 hours ago, Little Sherri said:

The other one just kind of got away from me. I was holding it, wanted it to wait until I was in a convenient location, also had to pee, and was annoyed that I was kind of holding both, and at some point, I tried to open the gates on #1, and everything happened all at once. Not a complete loss of control, just an "incident", but one that that required a new diaper. 

In the last year or so I’ve experienced the same.  Especially when doing an “emergency pee” outside I often struggle to release #1 without some #2.  This may be more a function of enlarged prostrate than bedwetting training, don’t know.

[spark]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:40 PM, Little Sherri said:

The one related to bad chicken could, I think, be explained by the fact that I had a diaper on and my inhibitions were down. I would probably have risked a colon rupture, were I wearing a Speedo at a pool party when that urge struck me. Although my wife would have killed me that night for wearing a Speedo. Whereas in a big plastic diaper, well, I was going to bin it eventually, anyway... although the cleanup is always off-putting. 

The other one just kind of got away from me. I was holding it, wanted it to wait until I was in a convenient location, also had to pee, and was annoyed that I was kind of holding both, and at some point, I tried to open the gates on #1, and everything happened all at once. Not a complete loss of control, just an "incident", but one that that required a new diaper. 

I'm the opposite with both #1 and #2.   Other than tiny drops, I've never had unauthorized urine discharges without a diaper.  The approval process for urine discharge is getting simplified, and I think my brain is starting to send my bladder messages to stop asking for approval, and just go.   Mind you, I had frequent nocturnal emissions for much longer than most males, but that's not been an issue for a long time.

 However, I've had at least about 4 unauthorized fecal discharges while not diapered.   One is buried deep in my mental vault and is not something I've chosen to re-live.  Let's just say I was on a school trip (high school) when I was 18 and on a bus when my stomach decided to rebel.   Not pretty.   I had another one while home after I had CT Scan that required me to drink a chalky mixture, and eventually it needed to come out.  I had another one in Scotland on trip which was less than the on in Australia (high school), but did require more than just a change.  While I've had several close calls while wearing a diaper, I don't think I've had unauthorized fecal discharge while in a diaper.

[Enthusi]

The timing of this is perfect. I have been untraining for years (5+)and I have little to no remaining bladder control. 

I have no plan to become bowel incontinent. It’s not something I strive for and it wouldn’t add to my enjoyment of diapers, or life for that matter. 

That said, recently I have noticed some slippage of bowel control. Every now and then I have what I call “gray accidents.” I notice an urge to go and I start off with the intent to use the big boy potty but then I say to myself, “Screw it, I’m wearing a diaper!”  I don’t think these are real accidents, because I probably could still make it to the toilet if I absolutely needed to. But I’m aware this is strikingly similar to how incontinence progresses for most people.  And they seem to be happening with increased frequency.  

And despite my stated intent to retain bowel control, I’m not exactly doing anything to mitigate the situation.

[Kif]

Dangit, you're reminding me this thread exists Enthusi ?

Uhm yeah, saw this thread mid-Sept and thought "Welp, guess I'll come back in a year". Yet, here I am three weeks later having very unexpectedly started experiencing for the past week what could be described as between stages 3 and 4; I've got roughly 4-8 minutes that I can hold it before I completely lose control. Fortunately haven't had accidents since I'm super regular and can test-to-failure at home in the mornings...but still, if I were caught outdoors unpadded with an upset tummy, it wouldn't end well.

Btw it really is like Kali described with the balloon metaphor; e.g. that whereas before it was pinching the neck with my thumb and forefinger, now it is like pulling the neck with both hands (letting air slowly and obnoxiously squeak out). I can feel the effort, and am putting my entire body and mind to it, but it comes out anyway (and at that point, I give up).

For what it's worth, I had little-to-no-notice. Only things I could note were increased urgency leading up to it, and then a few weeks before now noticing some small accidents while exercising (squats etc). I was pretty laid back about just going, like Enthusi was, but didn't see it progress very much in a similar timeframe. So, having untrained and retrained to bedwetting at least twice so far, it especially blindsided me.

To the question posed here regarding extent/order of urinary control...

While I did notice urinary issues a few weeks before I experienced my FI issues, whether I actually lost urinary control is debatable. I can hold on for at least an hour (I suspect longer, but haven't confirmed it to failure yet) so I'm not terribly worried about suddenly losing control unexpectedly.

That said, I cannot stop the flow once it starts; at best I can slow it, and then bring it to a pause for a second before I lose control.

Also, there are at this point lots of triggers throughout the day that nearly catch me off guard lots and lots (hadn't noticed them until I tried retraining this week). Before the FI issues showed up, I was already hesitant to leave the house unpadded due to just that factor. In fact, on one occasion recently I was right...I'd been sitting down, and the urge hit me so suddenly and hard that it overwhelmed me and I started going automatically...and of course, I couldn't stop despite my embarrassment (fortunately I was at least padded). Finally, while I haven't been bedwetting, I *have* started experienced a few episodes again in the past week.

Now, I did mention some retraining. 

I've been at it only roughly a week so far but have seen *some* progress. Not a lot, but some. 

Everytime I've peed in the toilet, I've tried stopping the stream. It has gotten a little easier and I managed to hold it for several seconds more than at the beginning of the week. Almost to the point of stopping it completely enough to consider standing up and walking away, but not quite. 

Bowel control has also improved; I've gone from 4 minutes up to 7-8. However, actual control has ultimately been elusive; I'm not able to induce reverse peristalsis like before, and then comfortably walk away after maybe 30 seconds or so of effort. Discomfort begins immediately, the latter half of the time is a full-body-effort fight, and the urge only gets stronger over time until failure occurs. Further, progress hasn't been linear; on one day I dropped down from 6 minutes to unexpectedly less than 3. My nearly-8 record so-far I think was only accomplished because volume (therefore load) was unusually low (roughly half). So while my progress is...something...I'm not sure how much it really is, and if it'll continue.

So on retraining...After I'm past this temporary hurdle, I will probably give it up for good. Maybe slight maintenance, but certainly nowhere up to what it was before.

[BabyBoi91]

Yes, over time if you intentionally “disuse” muscles involved in bladder control, then you can develop bowel weakness as well. This is due to some (not all) of the pelvic floor muscles being involved in both. 
 

after about 3+ years of urinary incontinence , I began having occasional bowel accidents as well—usually more stress incontinence to begin with. It was a little unnerving at first but I eventually accepted it and am fine with it now. 
 

when I talked with my doctor about it, he said it definitively can happen this way.  

[Clr224]

For me, loss of bowel control closely followed urinary incontinence.  While I had ultimately intended to become totally incontinent, I hadn’t intended for it to happen so soon and so unexpectedly.  However, after reconciling myself that I was indeed losing all control, I let it progress and haven’t regretted the decision.

Based on my experience, I believe that relaxing the pelvic muscles to gain urinary incontinence necessarily relaxes the muscles involved in bowel control.  I have some doubts about the muscles actually being weakened.  Instead, I think that the clenching reflex that tightens the bladder and bowel sphincters is suppressed.  After a while, we “forget” to reflexively tighten the muscles when bladder or bowel contractions would normally trigger the clenching action. If I think about, I’m still aware of my bladder or bowels emptying, I no longer automatically try to control it.

[Enthusi]

@Kif can I just say I love your enthusiasm?  I can tell you “get it”. Not sure what “it” refers to, but whatever it is,  it’s great to have you as part of the team! 

And as a general comment for everyone who replied, I think it’s humorous/telling/pathetic/fascinating that we collectively are like “Whoops! I just pooped myself! C’est la vie!”  For most people, accidentally pooping yourself is not a trivial event. ?

[oznl]

9 hours ago, Kif said:

That said, I cannot stop the flow once it starts; at best I can slow it, and then bring it to a pause for a second before I lose control.

That's VERY much the case for me now and I got bitten by this issue this morning.

I'd just removed my night nappy and had dealt with a morning #2 in the usual, adult fashion.  I got up from the throne and two steps away, immediately realised I was rapidly dripping.  As it happened, I was standing over my discarded cloth night nappy so things were kind of getting dealt with.

As I surveyed the situation, gravity kicked in and the weak dripping turned to a weak stream.

I couldn't move back to the toilet because pee would go on the floor (instead of into the nappy on the floor immediately beneath me) and I also couldn't stop it.

I just had to stand there, try to aim for the exposed cloth nappy (avoiding the plastic pants) and wait!

1 hour ago, Enthusi said:

For most people, accidentally pooping yourself is not a trivial event. ?

It's been amusing to me to see myself constantly re-baselining "normal" over time to the point where uncontrollably messing a nappy is "not completely normal but not catastrophic".

[Enthusi]

56 minutes ago, oznl said:

It's been amusing to me to see myself constantly re-baselining "normal" over time to the point where uncontrollably messing a nappy is "not completely normal but not catastrophic".

This is a big mood!   Sometimes I have to remind myself that most people would mortified if they lost more than a squirt of pee.  And yet to us it’s called “Saturday morning.” 

56 minutes ago, oznl said:

As I surveyed the situation, gravity kicked in and the weak dripping turned to a weak stream.

I couldn't move back to the toilet because pee would go on the floor (instead of into the nappy on the floor immediately beneath me) and I also couldn't stop it.

Sounds like you’re entering the next phase of your untraining!  Peeing is no longer an active verb for you. Instead it’s something that happens  to you.  “Oznl emptied his bladder” is no longer the correct syntax.  The correct form of that sentence would be, “Oznl’s bladder emptied.” ?

[oznl]

41 minutes ago, Enthusi said:

Sounds like you’re entering the next phase of your untraining!  Peeing is no longer an active verb for you. Instead it’s something that happens  to you.  “Oznl emptied his bladder” is no longer the correct syntax.  The correct form of that sentence would be, “Oznl’s bladder emptied.” ?

?  Technically though, I had permitted the bladder emptying event (well, it happens automatically with a #2 but I believe that to be physiologically normal).  The problem was that it didn't finish when I thought it did and I couldn't stop it manually because THAT trick just doesn't work anymore.

The syntax might be "Oznl's bladder finished emptying" as opposed to "Oznl finished emptying his bladder".

It made no difference as far as the bathroom floor was concerned though ?

[Enthusi]

3 hours ago, oznl said:

?  Technically though, I had permitted the bladder emptying event (well, it happens automatically with a #2 but I believe that to be physiologically normal).  The problem was that it didn't finish when I thought it did and I couldn't stop it manually because THAT trick just doesn't work anymore.

The syntax might be "Oznl's bladder finished emptying" as opposed to "Oznl finished emptying his bladder".

It made no difference as far as the bathroom floor was concerned though ?

That’s what I get for critiquing a wordsmith!  ???

 

”Oznl’s bathroom floor got urinated on by Oznl.”

[Hannah YMS]

On 10/7/2022 at 9:03 AM, Kif said:

Dangit, you're reminding me this thread exists Enthusi ?

Uhm yeah, saw this thread mid-Sept and thought "Welp, guess I'll come back in a year". Yet, here I am three weeks later having very unexpectedly started experiencing for the past week what could be described as between stages 3 and 4; I've got roughly 4-8 minutes that I can hold it before I completely lose control. Fortunately haven't had accidents since I'm super regular and can test-to-failure at home in the mornings...but still, if I were caught outdoors unpadded with an upset tummy, it wouldn't end well.

Btw it really is like Kali described with the balloon metaphor; e.g. that whereas before it was pinching the neck with my thumb and forefinger, now it is like pulling the neck with both hands (letting air slowly and obnoxiously squeak out). I can feel the effort, and am putting my entire body and mind to it, but it comes out anyway (and at that point, I give up).

For what it's worth, I had little-to-no-notice. Only things I could note were increased urgency leading up to it, and then a few weeks before now noticing some small accidents while exercising (squats etc). I was pretty laid back about just going, like Enthusi was, but didn't see it progress very much in a similar timeframe. So, having untrained and retrained to bedwetting at least twice so far, it especially blindsided me.

To the question posed here regarding extent/order of urinary control...

While I did notice urinary issues a few weeks before I experienced my FI issues, whether I actually lost urinary control is debatable. I can hold on for at least an hour (I suspect longer, but haven't confirmed it to failure yet) so I'm not terribly worried about suddenly losing control unexpectedly.

That said, I cannot stop the flow once it starts; at best I can slow it, and then bring it to a pause for a second before I lose control.

Also, there are at this point lots of triggers throughout the day that nearly catch me off guard lots and lots (hadn't noticed them until I tried retraining this week). Before the FI issues showed up, I was already hesitant to leave the house unpadded due to just that factor. In fact, on one occasion recently I was right...I'd been sitting down, and the urge hit me so suddenly and hard that it overwhelmed me and I started going automatically...and of course, I couldn't stop despite my embarrassment (fortunately I was at least padded). Finally, while I haven't been bedwetting, I *have* started experienced a few episodes again in the past week.

Now, I did mention some retraining. 

I've been at it only roughly a week so far but have seen *some* progress. Not a lot, but some. 

Everytime I've peed in the toilet, I've tried stopping the stream. It has gotten a little easier and I managed to hold it for several seconds more than at the beginning of the week. Almost to the point of stopping it completely enough to consider standing up and walking away, but not quite. 

Bowel control has also improved; I've gone from 4 minutes up to 7-8. However, actual control has ultimately been elusive; I'm not able to induce reverse peristalsis like before, and then comfortably walk away after maybe 30 seconds or so of effort. Discomfort begins immediately, the latter half of the time is a full-body-effort fight, and the urge only gets stronger over time until failure occurs. Further, progress hasn't been linear; on one day I dropped down from 6 minutes to unexpectedly less than 3. My nearly-8 record so-far I think was only accomplished because volume (therefore load) was unusually low (roughly half). So while my progress is...something...I'm not sure how much it really is, and if it'll continue.

So on retraining...After I'm past this temporary hurdle, I will probably give it up for good. Maybe slight maintenance, but certainly nowhere up to what it was before.

@Kif, as always, love reading your posts and responses. But chica, you confuse me... why bother retraining? Did I miss something in the thread somewhere? You've put in a hell of a lot of effort to untrain... reading this post makes my head spin. Are you trying to retrain fully again or are you just testing the waters? If you're just testing the waters then I get it, but if trying to fully retrain then I'm confused, as stated. Curious. Thanks.

[Kif]

20 minutes ago, jonbearab said:

@Kif, as always, love reading your posts and responses. But chica, you confuse me... why bother retraining? Did I miss something in the thread somewhere? You've put in a hell of a lot of effort to untrain... reading this post makes my head spin. Are you trying to retrain fully again or are you just testing the waters? If you're just testing the waters then I get it, but if trying to fully retrain then I'm confused, as stated. Curious. Thanks.

I talk about it in more detail on my untraining thread -- but the gist is that I'm trans, and have another surgery coming up. Whilst not really a big issue for recovery on these followup surgeries, being able to stay out of diapers a few weeks makes it a lot easier to manage. After a few weeks of recovery (this surgery heals much faster), I plan to let the rest of my control go (or at least, back down to where it was because I felt happier there).

[Hannah YMS]

5 minutes ago, Kif said:

I talk about it in more detail on my untraining thread -- but the gist is that I'm trans, and have another surgery coming up. Whilst not really a big issue for recovery on these followup surgeries, being able to stay out of diapers a few weeks makes it a lot easier to manage. After a few weeks of recovery (this surgery heals much faster), I plan to let the rest of my control go.

Oooh ok, fair enough. My apologies. As you were. Hehe. Thanks for the response.