Are my long binges wearing 24/7 destroying my continence?

[Goerge]

I have long binges wearing nappies 24/7. I have learned and achieved being able to wet at the slightest urge without clenching my sphincter muscles. When I'm wearing I can very easily keep my sphincter in a relaxed, open position. I can feel my sphincter is relaxed and I have to actively clench it. I pee in little drips and dribbles and little gushes very easily throughout the day. I never flood my nappy. Even at night I wake up multiple times and wet and go back to sleep. I like pretending to be incontinent.

Thing is when I'm not wearing nappies my bladder is very sensitive and I have to pee all the time. A small amount of pee in my bladder makes it feel like I have a full bladder. I use the toilet and its a small amount I pee. I have to get up multiple times a night to pee. The urge to pee is so uncomfortable that is all I think about. I also dribble pee quite severely/uncontrollable  all over the floor when I'm having a poo. This happen every time I have a poo.

What does time mean? Is this spiralling into incontinence? Is this overactive bladder? What would happen to my continence if I just said stuff it I'll wear 24/7 and continued to wet at the slightest urge?

 

 

[Little Sherri]

I've been 24/7 for a bit over two years, and I can kind of relate to what you're describing. Most of the time, things are in a state of relaxation down there, and while I don't void involuntarily, it only takes a moment now to permission a release, and once the flow starts, I can't stop it. The interval between events is in the range of 15 minutes to half an hour, so my bladder is no longer used to holding much, and on those rare occasions where I've had to hold it (say, at a doctor's office, or due to poor planning when I'm afraid my diaper might leak at a social event or whatever), it has rapidly become uncomfortable. I also always wet whenever I engage in a #2. However, that said, I haven't actually lost the ability to hold it, just the desire to. I haven't left the house without a diaper on in a couple of years, but if I did, I'd be in and out of public washrooms at least a couple of times an hour. But I doubt the claims that there's "no going back" - I think that if I practiced, I could get back to where I was, before diapers. I just don't want to. 

My thoughts on this are supported by an article I read a couple of years ago about a doctor who was working on weaning elderly patients in a long-term care setting off of stupefying amounts of psychoactive medications. He had found examples of people who were bedridden and incapacitated, ostensibly due to dementia or disability, but who were being given inappropriate types and amounts of medications, usually to control behavioural problems. A lot of these people were bedridden and in diapers, and had been, in some cases, for years. As they were weaned off their medications, a number of them, with physical therapy, were able to regain some mobility, and those that did often no longer required incontinence care, or were not entirely dependent on diapers anymore. So, if someone in their 70's or 80's can be in diapers for a few years, and then transition out of them, I don't think that I'm doomed to walk the earth in toddler's underpants forever, just because I've been doing so for a couple of years. That said, I do plan to walk the earth in toddler's underpants forever - don't get me wrong! But the choice is mine. 

[Enthusi]

My guess is that it’s like any other “skill” that relies on muscle and memory.  I’m sure you can retrain if you have the desire.   It may not be 100 percent back to how it was, but good enough that you won’t need diapers.   
 

Again that’s if you really want to retrain.  

That said I’ve been unpotty training for 4+ years, and I have little to no bladder control. I feel like my capacity is weakened and it takes a ton of effort and focus to close the sphincter and keep it closed.  Usually it just empties on its own and I’m semi aware it’s happening but can’t do much to stop myself from peeing. When I go without a diaper, 9/10 times I will have a legitimate accident.   For me, I have no desire to retrain. I fully expect I’ll be in diapers the rest of my life and will never regain bladder control, which is fine. So even if my “hardware”  has the potential to work, I don’t have the “software” to allow me to retrain.  
 

Long story short, in a roundabout way, for me 24/7 and unpotty training has  led to permanent incontinence. But I would think it would be possible to regain bladder control… if that’s what you wanted. 

[Little Sherri]

2 hours ago, Enthusi said:

Long story short, in a roundabout way, for me 24/7 and unpotty training has  led to permanent incontinence. But I would think it would be possible to regain bladder control… if that’s what you wanted. 

Interesting, @Enthusi - you're a couple of years further down this road than I am. I wonder if I'll end up where you are. I would not mind if I didn't have to pay any attention anymore to events down there. Like you, I plan to stay in diapers. I have a question: what is your overnight experience been like? I was originally a bedwetter, as a kid, and I had a couple of bedwetting incidents as an adult over the last few years, which I leaned into as an "excuse" to wear diapers, when I "came out" to my wife, although at that point I had been wearing them overnight for more than a year, and now I've been 24/7 for two years. 

My overnight wetting experience seemed to be following the trajectory of that of some of the 24/7 people I have met here  - @oznl, for example - in that I was relaxing and letting it happen, and I got to a point where I could awaken just enough to wave a drowsy hand at the gatekeepers, permission a release, and then fall right back to sleep while events took their course. From time to time I would wake up wet with no recollection of having agreed to it. But then I started sleeping through the night and waking up dry again. These days, most of the time, I sleep like a rock, and I wake up needing to pee, but if I went to bed in a dry diaper, I'll wake up in a dry diaper. Except last night - this morning, I woke up wet, but with no recollection of having done so. But who knows - memories of events that occur while semiconscious are unreliable at best. But it seems like my subconscious is rebelling against my somewhat-declining daytime control by imposing a rigid nighttime regime. 

What has it been like for you? 

[Goerge]

I can't sleep through the night without waking and feeling a strong urge to pee, this is uncomfortable and means I have to go pee to get back to sleep, and its not a large amount. During the day if not wearing nappies I frequently have to use the toilet and again its not a large amount I pee. I heard my house mate peeing and it seemed like his stream went on forever and it makes a large, strong impact in the toilet bowel. Mine is weak, uneven and without the reflexivity clench afterwards. I've not experienced any Post Micturition Dribble after being. But my bladder is very sensitive.

[Enthusi]

@Little Sherri 

Glad to help!    My experience was similar in that I started waking up in the middle of the needing to pee and making myself wet in whatever position I happened to be in. That evolved over time to waking up while peeing. Then it became having dreams where I am peeing. Then it became no memory of wetting.  About a year or so ago I started wetting multiple times at night in my sleep.  I only know because of the times I wake up over night. I’m usually wetter in the morning than overnight.  This is going to sound weird but I don’t really think about it that much anymore.  Though I wouldn’t have it any other way! 
 

I did have a recent “victory” where I went to bed without a diaper on, just a bed pad, and I woke up soaked.   For a while I would wake up dry when I didn’t have a diaper on and that bugged me. Personally speaking, I’m turned off to the idea of being “diaper trained.”  A lot of people would love to be able to wet only when they wear diapers.  Though I still see that as a sign of having bladder control.  
 

Also I’m a tiny bit irked that I am reliably dry during daytime naps. Even if I chug water before lying down I’m usually dry and with a full bladder when I wake up.  I’m hoping that takes care of itself with time. 

 I think psychology plays a huge role. The more you trust your diaper, the more soundly you’ll sleep. To that end,  I always make sure I go to bed in a very thick and dry diaper like a megamax with a booster.  And I have an absorbent pad under my sheets.   Also when you do have a “victory” be sure to reward yourself. 

[oznl]

4 hours ago, Enthusi said:

I did have a recent “victory” where I went to bed without a diaper on, just a bed pad, and I woke up soaked.  

That was the "acid test" for me except I didn't have a bed pad.  I just woke up at 3am, cold, uncomfortable and very, very wet.  I had to get up, change my pyjamas (this time including a safety-nappy) and re-engineer the bed to allow me to sleep on a dry side until morning whereupon everything had to be stripped and washed.  This was a scenario I NEVER would have consciously chosen and thus rammed home the lesson.

In fact, I'd been bedwetting already for months, the evidence disguised by nappies.  I would repeatedly "prove" this to myself and then, over the course of the next days, rationalise it away as forgetfulness or lack of attention (amusedly watching @Little Sherri do EXACTLY this on his own latest blog update).  I couldn't walk this one back however and so had to face a truth.

I've said before, the trajectory my body took to get to this point was pretty much identical to @Enthusi

To answer the OP's question:  No, in my experience, episodic nappy use will NOT produce functional incontinence.  Even full-time use will take years before objective physiological evidence of continence degradation appears.  What DOES happen much earlier is that we get very good at wetting our pants and the usual inhibitions our bodies raise to prevent this event are eroded.  We can also learn new behaviors, such as inhibiting the previous "clench" reflex that occurs at the end of micturition and we become hyper-aware of any stored pee in our bladder because we don't habitually do that for long periods of time.

I still have rusty, limited but usable daytime continence (not what it used to be however) after 2.5 years non-stop wearing.

 

[Enthusi]

@oznl It’s funny how incontinence and loss of control is so insidious and doesn’t really feel like anything. It’s easy to dismiss any accidents as laziness, and to tell your self that you could’ve made it if you tried but you didn’t. 

[Goerge]

It's seems I'm not experiencing the same progression as people who wear and go 24/7 who wish to achieve their incontinence?

I've been wearing nappies for 20 years. I definitely have an overactive bladder now. This really only starting happening since 2016 when I learned to remain relaxed peeing/ not exercising my sphincter. I'm wetting at the slightest urge all the time. Never clench when finished in my 24/7 mindset. 

Somethings is definitely happening to my bladder control. I always feel a need to pee when not wearing nappies even when no pee in my bladder. I wet very easily in any position, Its only when my bladder is kinked I have an extreme need to pee and I move position I pee and its not a strong stream and little amount but I feel relieved. I feel a contact need to pee. its unconformable. When not in my 24/7 mode I wake 2/3 times a night to use the toilet. 

 

[Enthusi]

On 7/15/2021 at 1:56 PM, Goerge said:

I've been wearing nappies for 20 years. I definitely have an overactive bladder now. This really only starting happening since 2016 when I learned to remain relaxed peeing/ not exercising my sphincter. I'm wetting at the slightest urge all the time. Never clench when finished in my 24/7 mindset

Coincidentally I was chatting with a friend about the phenomenon of "spiraling." That's where worsening bladder control leads to more reliance on diapers to keep you dry which worsens your bladder control which gets you more diaper dependent.   It seems a lot of us (myself included) spiral after several years of 24/7 while other people can go decades with marginal progress.  I would love to know why some people have a more difficult time spiraling. 

 

 

My friend seems to be making no progress after years of trying and he's getting frustrated.  Any advice for him?

[rubbersheetmike]

On 7/14/2021 at 9:54 AM, Goerge said:

I can feel my sphincter is relaxed and I have to actively clench it. I pee in little drips and dribbles and little gushes very easily throughout the day. I never flood my nappy. Even at night I wake up multiple times and wet and go back to sleep. I like pretending to be incontinent.

Thing is when I'm not wearing nappies my bladder is very sensitive and I have to pee all the time. A small amount of pee in my bladder makes it feel like I have a full bladder. I use the toilet and its a small amount I pee. I have to get up multiple times a night to pee. The urge to pee is so uncomfortable that is all I think about.

 

I dont go in drips and dribbles throughout the day except after Ive urinated when the excess pee in my bladder flows out. The amount is sometimes a lot more than a drip or dribble. Ive been told this is called 'incomplete voiding' and is caused by weakening sphincter control. I usually ware a pullup if Im away from home during the day but if my bladder releases whether or not Im at home it usually does so all at once and I prefer this because my bladder usually completely empties when this happens. I dont consider myself to be incontinent during the day at least not yet because I can mostly manage to deal with my bladder issues for now. Maybe Im kidding myself about this but Im still trying to manage it.

Whether or not I wear a diaper at night I have the same sensation as you when I wake up that I have to get up to pee but often cant produce much at all. And I keep on feeling the bladder pressure even after trying to go. Generally if Im waring a diaper I dont worry about it and try to get back to sleep and whatever happens happens which is what diapers are for. If I dont ware a diaper though I wake up more often and have a harder time sleeping but I pee in the bed just as much.  I do consider myself to be mostly bladder incontinent at night as time goes on because I seem to have less control over it.

[oznl]

19 hours ago, Enthusi said:

Coincidentally I was chatting with a friend about the phenomenon of "spiraling." That's where worsening bladder control leads to more reliance on diapers to keep you dry which worsens your bladder control which gets you more diaper dependent.   It seems a lot of us (myself included) spiral after several years of 24/7 while other people can go decades with marginal progress.  I would love to know why some people have a more difficult time spiraling. 

 

 

My friend seems to be making no progress after years of trying and he's getting frustrated.  Any advice for him?

When I went back into nappies, I almost immediately adopted the habit of draining whatever was in my bladder every time I thought about it (every 10 minutes or so).  For me, this was part of the attraction, no longer having to “manage” toilet breaks but also meant that my nappies were less likely to leak.  Early on when I peed in my pants that same way I’d pee in a toilet as a grown up, leaks were guaranteed.

This seemed to be a self-reinforcing behavior and over time, it took less and less effort to get into this “drip and dribble” mode and my immunity to leaks improved markedly.

It wasn’t a linear process and in the early days, it’s quite counter-intuitive.  I'd forget to do it regularly.  Episodic resumption of normal behavior reverts the process swiftly (I had a 4 week sabbatical in early 2019 that probably put me back to ground zero).

There were (and still are) “regressions” to old behaviors for me today but now what might SEEM like a ragingly full bladder (assuming I “forget” to go for a long time) really isn’t and what seems like a consequential torrent of pee, really isn’t either.  A few times I’ve been sure that I’m going to leak but I don’t.  I suspect from a clinical viewpoint, my peeing is now quite abnormal (weak, intermittent, low volume with residual voiding).  I'm still continent during the day though, kind of, a bit...

I’ve spoken to some who haven’t used their nappies in this cadence.  They may WEAR nappies all the time, but they USE them at the same cadence they formerly would have used a toilet.  From a physiological standpoint therefore, it’s probably unsurprising that nothing changes because nothing has changed with how they are using their body.  I suppose they might eventually forget where the toilet is.

Even if one does follow the path I took though, my experience has been that changes to daytime continence are glacially slow to occur (and somewhat only visible in retrospect).  I've noticed a tendency amongst the enthusiastic (including myself) to misinterpret early signs of habituation as some kind of precipitously steep spiral into incontinence.

[hlcl]

Little Sherri

I would be interested in reading the article you are referring to.  It seems like oftentimes nursing home residents are diapered more for the convenience of the staff.

 I think that after a while residents stop paying attention to their bodies' signals that they need to pee so they wet their diapers.  Also by not having to hold it their muscles weaken.

I have seen people use a toilet when they go into a nursing home. Before long they are using diapers. 

 With some potty training some nursing home residents can get out of diapers. 

[gmcchamp99]

My urologist said for people without any underlying medical issues, your continence is fully on muscle memory. That being said, I have what my urologist refers to as Mixed incontinence which is Urge Incontinence and now Overflow incontinence. About 10 years ago give or take medications, exercises and catheters weren't a comfortable method for me to manage accident and overnight bedwetting so I chose to wear diapers 24/7 against medical advice to manage the issue. I'm not 100% daytime incontinent but have little control over stopping the dribble. I can slow it and stop it temporarily but as soon as i resume what i was doing my bladder will begin voiding again. 

[Dprczyone]

Long binges I'm sure would help you toward being functionally incontinent. Like most have said it's a muscle motor memory skill. Keep doing it the right way and it will make it difficult to come back, maybe. The longest I've ever went was about 10 days so I can't relate to a long binge. Also I have a shy bladder and it's hard for me to even start a stream sometimes. There are times however after I've worn for several days and go back to regular underwear that whenever my bladder gets slightly full I need to head to the bathroom. Not much comes out so I'm guessing that it's related to my diaper wearing. I'm thinking it's urge incontinence but it doesn't last long.

 

 

 

 

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[ppdude]

On 7/14/2021 at 9:54 AM, Goerge said:

I have long binges wearing nappies 24/7. I have learned and achieved being able to wet at the slightest urge without clenching my sphincter muscles. When I'm wearing I can very easily keep my sphincter in a relaxed, open position. I can feel my sphincter is relaxed and I have to actively clench it. I pee in little drips and dribbles and little gushes very easily throughout the day. I never flood my nappy. Even at night I wake up multiple times and wet and go back to sleep. I like pretending to be incontinent.

 

Sounds like you're already there. A broken sphincter reacts in the very way you describe. Start peeing your diaper instead of getting up. You'll sleep much bettter.

 

[Enthusi]

9 hours ago, gmcchamp99 said:

My urologist said for people without any underlying medical issues, your continence is fully on muscle memory.

Makes sense especially in this context. 
 

I’ve long sense “forgotten” how to work the muscles properly to stay dry on my own.  Though to OP’s point I have no desire to relearn which has further exacerbated my incontinence. 

[spark]

2 hours ago, Enthusi said:

Makes sense especially in this context. 
 

I’ve long sense “forgotten” how to work the muscles properly to stay dry on my own.  Though to OP’s point I have no desire to relearn which has further exacerbated my incontinence. 

I remember how hard it was to pee in a diaper when I first started to wear diapers as an adult.   I had to stand a certain way and imagine myself standing next to toilet.  It took a while to get to the point where it was easier to just wet without thinking.   Now I have to consciously hold it the few times that I don't wear a diaper.  I'm also having a much easier time pooping in my diaper, so my muscle memory is teaching itself to use a diaper. 

Interestingly, I have a friend who is a newborn specialist and helps parents of multiples get through the infant stage.    One of the steps she uses to get the babies to sleep through the night is to train the baby not to react to wet diaper.  I'm not 100% certain, but I think the reverse is true when a child is potty trained.  They are used to using their diaper for their business, and need to be trained that they need to wait until they are on the toilet to take care of their business.