My Journey of 24/7 and Incontinence

[Hannah YMS]

Thanks @DiaperboyEddie12! That was my daily chart but I fell way behind in updating it so I kinda forgot about it. I'm still wearing 24/7 tho so I'm coming close to a year I think. I'll have to go back and check.

For those who are wondering, I am still continent but now it's really uncomfortable to be out of a diaper. I had to go to the ER yesterday and decided not to wear a diaper and I was miserable. I'm not used to holding my pee for that long. But alas, I still made it and didn't have an accident. I feel my progress is slow but I still keep moving forward.

2 minutes ago, jonbearab said:

Thanks @DiaperboyEddie12...

I'm still wearing 24/7 tho so I'm coming close to a year I think. I'll have to go back and check. 

My bad, "officially" just over 8 months. Technically started on 2020-11-14.

[DiaperboyEddie12]

On 11/29/2020 at 7:53 PM, jonbearab said:

Hello my fellow incontinent journeyers!

Sorry this update is a day late. I had a notification on my phone to make an update but I was busy pretty much all day. Then I got a little drunk and forgot about it completely, lol.

So without further ado, here's my update.

2020-11-29 - 2 weeks 1 day - 15 days total

(Check out this previous post for a quasi update.)

Today marks my 16th day straight in 24/7 diaper wearing (15 whole days 24/7, plus today). Keep in mind I've been ~18/7 for years, so going 24/7 isn't a huge change. It just means that I no longer sleep without a diaper on. I have to keep reminding myself that I'm incontinent now so I can't enjoy the freeing non-diaper feeling while in bed. So far that's been okay, it hasn't been a big deal so far. On the bed wetting front, it's no surprise that I haven't wet the bed yet. I don't expect that to happen for many months.

This last week was fairly uneventful. I did notice that I've concentrated less of trying to keep my bladder empty. I just sort of forget that I'm wearing a diaper until my bladder has urgency then I focus on relaxing and I go. I need to increase my concentration on keeping my bladder empty this next week so I'll focus on that.

You'll notice in my Diaper Training Chart below, that this week I've been totally 24/7. With the exception of the 24th and 25th of this month, I've used my diaper totally, without any toilet use. That means #1 and #2. If you read my reply to @oznl above, on Thursday I was about to use the toilet for poo and just as I was about to pull my diaper down, my wife caught me and sternly demanded that I use my diaper for poo instead. I reluctantly complied (I don't like the cleanup, mostly) and since then I've been consistent in going poo in my diapers.

Today, though not depicted in the chart, I've already gone poo in my diaper and cleaned up (right before making this post, even) so I'll have no problem going without a toilet today. It's just not marked yet since the day isn't over.

On Friday (27th), I got my order of 3 cases of Abena L4s in the mail, and a few footed pajamas that I ordered for me and my wife. This will restock my supply for the remainder of the month.

I have a nice buffer of diapers though. In total, I have:

• 5 cases of Abena L4s
• a pack of ConfiDry 24/7s
• half a pack of Carousels,
• nearly a full pack of Rearz Safaris
• a full pack of Rearz Inspire + InControls
• a full pack of (crappy) Attends, plastic backed
• nearly a full pack of DC Amor (pink, sissy) diapers
• 2 1/2 packs of vintage Snuggies Waddlers
• and some miscellaneous diapers

I like to switch it up a little here and there, so I've been field testing the Inspire + InControls a little and have figured out how to wet it without any major leaks. Of course, I always wear plastic pants. I do leak a lot (in my plastic pants) when I'm not careful because I don't like to waste diapers. I use them to their maximum capacity (and then some) before I change. I use an average of 2-3 diapers per day. My fluid output has been a little low this week; I don't know why because my fluid intake hasn't changed. I do keep myself hydrated in general.

All said, I'm going strong. I did have a few bouts of "maybe I should quit because I'm not actually incontinent," but then I remember that this is my dysphoria talking and as someone (who DMed me recently) has said, "always remember that needing to be incontinent is a totally valid feeling," and this strengthens my resolve.

That about concludes my update for this week. Please feel free to ask questions or discuss. I love hearing from you guys.

Diaper Training Chart as of 2020-11-29

@BabyJilly_S here’s the post I was referring to.  It is interesting to see how other people track their progressi.

[BabyJilly_S]

25 minutes ago, DiaperboyEddie12 said:

@BabyJilly_S here’s the post I was referring to.  It is interesting to see how other people track their progressi.

Thanks, hadn't thought of going into that much detail

[DiaperboyEddie12]

Here you go @Linus

[Hannah YMS]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:53 AM, BabyJilly_S said:

Thanks, hadn't thought of going into that much detail

I could make it more detailed if y'all would like, next time I track my progress like this. ?

[DiaperboyEddie12]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:35 PM, jonbearab said:

I could make it more detailed if y'all would like, next time I track my progress like this. ?

@jonbearab when I take the journey of I potty training I’m going to create my own excel sheet.

Once I do I will share it in the forum.

[Hannah YMS]

On 9/14/2021 at 1:00 AM, DiaperboyEddie12 said:

@jonbearab when I take the journey of I potty training I’m going to create my own excel sheet.

Once I do I will share it in the forum.

How's that going?

[Hannah YMS]

Okay, so it's been about 8 months since I've last updated you all.

While I haven't been journaling regularly, I can say I've been diapered almost nearly 24/7 for the last 8 months (and beyond). When I'm not diapered is during a shower and during the 20 or so minutes after a shower while I air out. Other than that, I'm diapered, no exceptions.

I have mixed feelings at this point. I've been training for about 1.5 years, and to this day I don't feel like I've made much progress. If I'm being honest, my control seems to have gotten "better". In that, I may be having bladder retention rather than frequent voiding. At the same time, I always end up voiding, but when I do it's a torrential flood, which is why stuffers, double diapers, and cloth diapers are a must, or else I leak inside my plastic pants by many ounces, not just dribbles.

At this point, after 1.5 years, I'm still fully continent.

In truth, I have been messing my diaper more often. I poo in the toilet, these days, about once every 10 days. For the past 3 months I've just let go, with one toilet break here and there for convenience. The convenience part probably kills my progress, but alas.

I've also been really heavy into anal training lately, taking larger and larger plugs. I can almost take 4 inches in diameter, which I'm secretly hoping will induce bowel incontinence. I don't necessarily like the cleanup of a messy diaper, but if it means I can be incontinent I'm not entirely opposed to it. So far, no real luck. I'm not damaging my sphincters enough so I'm probably just maintaining flexibility. Either way...

In other news, I've been really trying to figure out my gender identity. For about 6 years now I've identified as gender queer or gender fluid, but I'm now actually considering binary trans woman. Which is interesting because we seem to have a lot of trans folks in our sub-community. And if I'm being honest, that's probably more validating than anything else.

I'm sorry for the vast emptiness in my posting history over time, but try to believe me when I say that my mental health as someone with bipolar type 2 is very challenging to get a hold of and I'm doing my best. I wish I can be consistent like @oznl, @Eido, @Enthusi, @~Brian~, @Little Sherri, @BlakeJordan, @DiaperboyEddie12, etc.

But, I've been perving the hell out of you all nonetheless, so thanks for all the updates. Hope all is well with you all. ❤️

[Little Sherri]

Hi, @jonbearab - thanks for the update! My experience is similar to yours in that I've been at this for almost exactly 3 years at this point, and other than more frequent nighttime incidents, and earlier discomfort if I try to hold it for any reason, I'm still completely consciously in charge of events in the plumbing department. The only thing I can confirm I've "lost" is the ability to stop wetting once I start, but that's not something people generally want to do, anyway - I don't recall it ever being "fun" to do, even before putting myself back in diapers full-time. I don't engage in #2's very often so you are well out ahead of me in that department.

Don't be too hard on yourself - this journey is different for everybody, and the only "rules" that apply are whatever you decide they should be. Losing capabilities that have been hard-wired since you were very young is not something that can be expected to come easily. Some people report having amazing "progress" almost right away, but at least as many of us, if not more, have a different experience. 

In any case, if doing this is helping you to live a better life, then stay the course, my friend, and my hat is off to you, and to everyone on this strange journey. 

[Hannah YMS]

3 hours ago, Little Sherri said:

Hi, @jonbearab - thanks for the update! My experience is similar to yours in that I've been at this for almost exactly 3 years at this point, and other than more frequent nighttime incidents, and earlier discomfort if I try to hold it for any reason, I'm still completely consciously in charge of events in the plumbing department. The only thing I can confirm I've "lost" is the ability to stop wetting once I start, but that's not something people generally want to do, anyway - I don't recall it ever being "fun" to do, even before putting myself back in diapers full-time. I don't engage in #2's very often so you are well out ahead of me in that department.

Don't be too hard on yourself - this journey is different for everybody, and the only "rules" that apply are whatever you decide they should be. Losing capabilities that have been hard-wired since you were very young is not something that can be expected to come easily. Some people report having amazing "progress" almost right away, but at least as many of us, if not more, have a different experience. 

In any case, if doing this is helping you to live a better life, then stay the course, my friend, and my hat is off to you, and to everyone on this strange journey. 

It's great to hear from you, @Little Sherri!

Thank you for your encouraging words, they mean a lot. I'm not frustrated because I haven't made much progress, per se, but that I haven't made much progress in over 1.5 years of active training. Maybe the 12 month program sets too high of a goal post to be able to untrain in 12 months?

I haven't tried stopping the flow once it starts, but I'll test it and see how it goes. My theory is that I can do it no problem. When I do void, after most of it comes out, I have to concentrate for a few more minutes to let the rest out. In this way it stops before it all empties.

I believe that full untraining will improve my life in a big way. I do fairly well at remaining positive during this journey, but once in a while I get really dysphoric over having control and those days don't feel very good. But I shall press on.

Also...

Two things I forgot to mention in my update. It's becoming easier to wet while laying down or in bed! Sometimes it takes 20 minutes of concentrating in order to wet, but it has been getting easier. I'm very pleased about that.

And lately I've been very tempted to try stents again. I think I'm going to stay away from an open catheter in my diaper as I seem to have bad luck these days with catching a UTI, which isn't fun at all, especially when the infection gets into your kidneys. I just need to find the rest of my stent making gear and git 'er dun.

Thanks again @Little Sherri! Hope all is well with you.

[Little Sherri]

18 hours ago, jonbearab said:

And lately I've been very tempted to try stents again. I think I'm going to stay away from an open catheter in my diaper as I seem to have bad luck these days with catching a UTI, which isn't fun at all, especially when the infection gets into your kidneys. I just need to find the rest of my stent making gear and git 'er dun.

Let me know how it goes. I have been occasionally intellectually intrigued by the idea of an open catheter or a stent, just to experience true loss of control in that department, but I am deeply intimidated by the prospect of jamming anything up "there", and, almost frozen in place with terror at the thought of having to go talk to a highly-paid professional who's main occupation is saving lives, about the help I need with getting something recreational out of "there". Or, asking them for the powerful antibiotics I need to counter the damage I have inadvertently done to myself. 

So, I know nothing of this. Tell me, what is the difference between an open catheter and a stent? I've seen adverts for pain-free "quick-cath's" on US television (for some reason they don't advertise them at all in Canada), presumably for people with prostate issues who need to relieve themselves. I take it the business end of those things remains protruding from Mr. Happy, and if you tuck the works down into your diaper, you will drain freely, but it can become a conduit for bugs to enter the inner workings? So they're not mean to be left in place? Whereas a stent is completely tucked up inside, except for some sort of retrieval tether? What happens if the stent gets stuck, or the tether comes off? I take it that's a trip to the ER? 

I've seen some people's homemade rigs here, and they are both marvels of engineering, and, horrendous looking. I don't know that I have it in me to put something like that the wrong way up that pipe. I've also always wondered what the hell you use to get it back to where it needs to be, and how you make sure you don't push it TOO far up the works. 

Take care, @jonbearab!

[Hannah YMS]

15 hours ago, Little Sherri said:

Let me know how it goes. I have been occasionally intellectually intrigued by the idea of an open catheter or a stent, just to experience true loss of control in that department, but I am deeply intimidated by the prospect of jamming anything up "there", and, almost frozen in place with terror at the thought of having to go talk to a highly-paid professional who's main occupation is saving lives, about the help I need with getting something recreational out of "there". Or, asking them for the powerful antibiotics I need to counter the damage I have inadvertently done to myself. 

So, I know nothing of this. Tell me, what is the difference between an open catheter and a stent? I've seen adverts for pain-free "quick-cath's" on US television (for some reason they don't advertise them at all in Canada), presumably for people with prostate issues who need to relieve themselves. I take it the business end of those things remains protruding from Mr. Happy, and if you tuck the works down into your diaper, you will drain freely, but it can become a conduit for bugs to enter the inner workings? So they're not mean to be left in place? Whereas a stent is completely tucked up inside, except for some sort of retrieval tether? What happens if the stent gets stuck, or the tether comes off? I take it that's a trip to the ER? 

I've seen some people's homemade rigs here, and they are both marvels of engineering, and, horrendous looking. I don't know that I have it in me to put something like that the wrong way up that pipe. I've also always wondered what the hell you use to get it back to where it needs to be, and how you make sure you don't push it TOO far up the works. 

Take care, @jonbearab!

I don't blame you. Shoving anything up "there" should be done with preparedness and caution. I've always had a fascination with catheters so I just tried it one day (many years ago). They are a lot of fun and you feel things you never thought you'd feel. For first time users, the worst part about it (for me) was the intense bladder spasms from the catheter irritating the lining of the bladder. A common mistake that newbies make is not using enough lube. If you use near sterile, clean, technique with lots of lube, inserting the catheter shouldn't hurt at all.

Regarding the qualified, highly-paid, individual and confessing that I lost a stent in my bladder: it was easily my most embarrassing day of my life. I am pretty sure I became talk of the ER for a few days. I'm just glad I didn't need surgery. They were able to get it out no problem.

Open catheters vs stents. An open catheter is a seated indwelling catheter who's urine drainage tube is not protected from outside bacteria. Usually you connect a leg bag to the catheter and that maintains a closed system. The open catheter in this case hasn't been modified, it's just draining freely into your diaper. A stent on the other hand is like a catheter, but much shorter, and it isn't anchored by a balloon. Unless your stent is made very well, it's likely to slide further inside or slip out due to activity. The main purpose of the stent is to open up "the valve" from the bladder neck until past the external sphincter.

Interestingly, catheters and stents can be quite arousing because of the stimulation you get from the catheter or stent over the prostate (for male bodied individuals). I've had my most painful orgasm ever with a catheter, and I've had some amazing orgasms with a catheter. The longer you use a catheter, the tougher your urethra and less sensitive it becomes. (In other words, don't masturbate with a catheter until you've worn a catheter a few times as it'll hurt like hell, but once you're used to it, go to town!)

"Quick caths" may be referring to intermittent catheters. The difference between an intermittent cath and a Foley cath is the intermittent cath doesn't have a retention balloon. You slip it in, void, pull it out, throw away. Foleys stay in for many days at a time. The intermittent catheter draining openly in a diaper has the problem of slipping out super easily, making it a pain in the toosh.

A correctly made stent will have redundant retrieval lines and/or methods. If it gets stuck, you're screwed, unless you can get it unstuck. Otherwise, yes, a fun filled day at the ER is in store. The stent I lost in my bladder? A very small retrieval line that slipped inside.

The placement of the stent is done by feel. Usually you put it in the tube, and work it down the shaft with your fingers. When it passes over the external sphincter and prostate, you'll know it, and when you feel it slip in, you know you don't need go any farther. Other methods use a dull knitting needle, of sorts, to push the stent up the tube. Crochet hooks can be used as retrieval hooks provided there are loops to hook into on the stent. It's really all about the design.

If you are more than curious about playing with catheters or stents, a good first introduction to shoving anything up the tube is by sounding. Here's a link to some Rosebud sounds. Here's a link to a Van Buren sound. Proper sounding requires lots of sterile lube and a bit of imagination. It's not uncommon to try to massage the prostate with a sound. The chances of losing a sound in your bladder are somewhere near zero, lol.

Sorry for the long reply! Let me know if you decide to experiment? I can give some general advice if needed through PM.

[Hannah YMS]

Sorry for necro'ing a thread that many are not interested in, but I do have some minor updates.

My untraining journey has taken a slightly different route. I've started wearing cloth diapers at night because of the security they provide with wetting in any position. This has allowed me to start wetting more (in any position) when I'm in bed. I have more success laying on my back and "going" for some reason, even though since I'm a stomach and side sleeper this ought to help out there as well.

I have also started wearing catheters slightly more frequently these days, as in, the last few weeks. I am fairly certain that catheters won't help me along in my untraining journey but dammit, I need some relief from feeling like I need to pee all the time. One to two days of catheter time helps me reclaim that uncomfortable feeling of knowing you need to pee but can't type of deal. With a catheter, I know it'll eventually come out and I don't have to feel a thing while it's happening.

That said, I'm starting to look towards stents again. Eventually I'm going to design the right one and when I do, I'm probably going to go full time with a stent. I've been on the 24/7/untraining journey now for over 2 years with little success. Either I'm doing something wrong or the program doesn't work for some types of people (of which I am a part).

All that said, I still continue to wear 24/7 and I'm noticing small changes, but nothing significant to write home about. That's about all I can say at this point.

Is anyone else getting frustrated at their lack of progress like me and are willing to find new avenues to at least obtain artificial incontinence?

[Cute_Kitten]

Thank you for sharing your progress and the ups and downs of your journey. I wish you success in your diaper training endeavors! 

[Hannah YMS]

On 7/27/2022 at 8:52 AM, Cute_Kitten said:

Thank you for sharing your progress and the ups and downs of your journey. I wish you success in your diaper training endeavors! 

Thank you!

[Hannah YMS]

On 7/27/2022 at 6:57 AM, jonbearab said:

I've been on the 24/7/untraining journey now for over 2 years with little success.

I don't know why I said that. I had untrained 1.6 years when I posted that. My bad.

Update

Hey everyone! Coming to you with another update...

I have officially been untraining for 2 years and 11 days. 11 days ago (Nov 14) was my 2-year diaperversary and I didn't even think to make a post. Shame on me  

I'm too lazy to go back and read the entire thread, so instead of updating you on the changes I've made, I'll just detail what is and we'll go from there.

TL;DR: I do not yet have the desired level of incontinence I'm shooting for, but I am making some progress. I continue to untrain at my own pace.

Progress

For those of you who are just now tuning in, my desired level of incontinence can be compared to overactive bladder (OAB). I want to be forced to urinate through no control of my own and still feel it. While this may be unrealistic, second to that I might say that my desired level of incontinence is to simply wet my diaper without noticing. Or, effectively, "functional incontinence." I would also welcome stress incontinence or incontinence in any fashion, big or small.

And in some way, I'm getting what desire. Note: I still consider myself quite continent and have no issues making it to the toilet provided I am close enough to one.

1. My bladder feels tired a lot

My bladder doesn't feel "fit as a fiddle" anymore. It feels a lot looser. Maybe this is pelvic floor weakening? I very actively maintain a no-clench reflex upon voiding or upon finishing my void. While the reflex is still there sometimes, thereby proving I can clench and stop mid-stream, knowing I can clench and then trying to internally feel the muscles that would be clenching, feels a little bit more disconnected. It feels a bit atrophied. Not enough to claim incontinence, but I'm noticing more of a sluggish response to things. I consider this to be progress. Unlike some, my untraining journey is going to take years rather than months, but still this is progress, even when considering that I have a lot of anxiety and my body is tense a lot (and yes, even tense in the pelvic floor area, but less so these days).

2. I still flood rather than frequently void in small amounts

My bladder is usually in one of three states: 1) relaxed and feeling empty (tho not necessarily empty), 2) back-of-the-mind mild discomfort and pressure, usually indicating that I will void very soon, and 3) MUST VOID NOW!

These days, it's difficult for me to get into a relaxed position to void when I choose. My bladder is becoming less responsive to my voiding techniques (y'know, the ones you learn during potty training) and is starting to void more on its own. Not in the sense that it "just voids when it wants on a whim", but more like "If I don't void now you'll be in pain" type of thing. This leads me to reason that I'm developing some sort of bladder retention. And frankly, I have no idea why.

I was under the impression that the "12 month program" helps to induce overactive bladder, not regress it towards retention. I definitely do not want to be reliant on intermittent catheterisation to void. I love voiding in my diaper just like everyone else.

Still, I'm going to continue untraining to see where this leads. As I will mention further along in the post, I am getting some strange data that might suggest I void without knowing it. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a strange feeling, especially if you have anticipated it for as long as I have.

3. I reliably have post void dribble

On the days that I cheat or are just too lazy or tired and not wear a diaper, I notice that when I urinate (either sitting down or standing up, either during #2 or not), I will dribble into my pants for between 30 seconds to a couple of minutes after I pull my pants up. For someone who loves to wet themself, this is generally an uncomfortable feeling as I'm essentially wetting my pants. I'm AMAB and it doesn't matter if I soak up pee with a paper towel or "shake it up", I will reliably dribble into my pants, creating pockets of cooling sensation on my skin anywhere from my upper leg to my ankle (and even onto the floor!), every single time I urinate.

Before my untraining journey, this wasn't an issue. And as someone who feels that untraining is generally not working for them, this is an interesting data point to consider.

4. Any position

Given enough relaxation, I can pee in any given position. The key here is relaxation. It's the only method I know that induces a willful void. The main position I am struggling with at the moment, even after 2 years, is peeing while driving. Interestingly enough, I have no issues pooping while driving. If I have to go #2, I have to go #2. More on that later.

I can pee while laying on my back and on my side, and definitely when on my stomach. I am decent at peeing while walking and climbing up and down the stairs. It's harder for me to pee when unfamiliar company is around, but not impossible. My most comfortable position to pee in is standing up. Given that my bladder generally has three states, I tend to stand up to pee when it is in state 2 ("back-of-the-mind mild discomfort and pressure, usually indicating that I will void very soon"). If my bladder is in state 2, I can stand up, and usually be able to relax enough to bring on a full flood (or whatever is left in my bladder), regardless of company. It's a bit harder when I'm sitting down in an unfamiliar place, however.

5. To poo, or not to poo, that is the question

I've promised myself a few times that I would 15,069.999% "use my diaper for absolutely everything". But, if I am being honest, it hasn't worked out that way. 8 times out of 10, I will poo in the toilet. This is due to a couple of reasons.

I.) My personality and/or brain just cannot justify wasting a diaper.

For example, this happens many times. I wake up in the morning and I have a full bladder. The moment I sit up and toss my legs over the edge of my bed, my bladder is screaming at me, "VOID NOW!" and I wet myself (if diapered). If I'm undiapered, I run to the loo as I know what's about to happen. Segue: when I go to sleep, if my diaper can take one or more wettings, I sleep with that diaper on. I do not waste it. Back to topic: At this point, chances are good that if I even sit down in that diaper I'm going to leak, so I change. Simple enough, right? So after 10 minutes of waking up I've got a fresh, dry diaper on. Good to go. Except... "The morning poo." Between 30 minutes and an hour after I wake up, I need to release the morning deuce. If I'm lucky, after my morning flood, my diaper has been used to the max for urine and is now ready for the glorious release of last night's digestion. I'm okay with that. It's when I change out of a very leaky diaper in the morning, and change into a new dry diaper, that when my #2 comes rumbling along a few minutes to half hour later that I can't justify. I don't like the idea of changing a diaper more than once in 30 minutes. If I poo in this dry diaper, then in my mind I've wasted it. I'm working to overcome this. I feel this is hindering my progress in some way. Comments on this are welcome.

II.) Sometimes it's just easier to drop your diaper and pinch a loaf in the loo. Simply put, cleanup is faster. Regardless if I poo in the toilet or my diaper, I use baby wipes to make sure I'm clean. After a deposit into the loo, I use maybe 3 baby wipes to clean up, but after a deposit into my diaper, it's gobs of paper towels and wipes. Cleaning up poo sucks (unless you're into that sort of thing) and is a lot of work. I really feel for those who are fecally incontinent, it's just a chore.

Honestly, 24/7 and incontinence is a lot of work and once in a while I am looking for shortcuts. Considering the shortcuts I take, and considering my progress, you decide if that applies to your untraining or not.

6. Bedwetting

Bedwetting still hasn't happened yet. That I know of. I'll often wake up needing to pee, and in the process of peeing, but I then I immediately shift position so that my pee can be accommodated by my diaper, which I know is contraindicated advice for bedwetting. The issue is I haven't yet found a foolproof method of not leaking in bed while laying down in any position, especially side sleeping. I can use mattress protectors or bed pads, sure, but I need to find a leak-proof method of wetting my diaper in bed. I've tried disposables alone (no go), disposables + cloth diapers (disposables leak out the top or back and not much is captured by the plastic pants), and just cloth diapers (generally don't hold enough; flooding while laying on my stomach usually results in a leak regardless). I did find one successful method many months ago, which I shall try again, is a baby diaper stuffer in my nighttime disposable. I haven't had any stomach leaking issues with a baby diaper stuffer. Will do more testing on this.

The good news is, I don't have a hard time wetting while laying down in any position. I just need to take the next step and become confident that my diapers will 100% work. I'm still working on this.

7. Day wetting

What I say next is almost certainly unreliable data, but I experience four "abnormal" things, in general, while diapered during the day:

I.) Once in a while I get these "tickles" where my bladder neck and sphincters are. This could be a mild bladder spasm. Sometimes I'll feel a tickle at the end of my meatus making me think I've wet a little. This isn't to be confused with ejaculating in your diaper and the rest pumping out over time, but the feeling is similar. I don't masturbate very often anymore (yay, 40s?) so I am disinclined to think that this is ejaculate. I can't technically verify if this is pee or not, but the feelings are there.

II.) I still get noticeable bladder spasms during the day, but not as frequently as the first six months into untraining. My observation is that my bladder (the detrusor muscle, more specifically) is actually getting weaker. I definitely don't pee with as much force as I used to when I was young, it's more of a slow flow (but still a flood in many cases).

III.) This happens more frequently after I wake up, but for a time during the early part of the day my bladder would be what I would consider to be satisfactorily overactive. But this doesn't last. Meaning, I could sit down in my office chair after doing something and I'll urgently need to urinate (but not a lot). Then a few minutes later I catch myself wetting again. And a few minutes later, again. Ideally, I'd love to be in this state all the time, but as the day progresses it morphs into more urine retention until the tipping point. I don't know how I feel about this.

IV.) Here's what I would consider to be my biggest update. For context, I think I am generally 100% aware of all my wettings. As we all are. We notice every wetting we notice. Until we don't.

Over the last month or two I've been getting into the paradox of "wow, I didn't know I wet this much," or, "wow, I didn't know I was this wet." Meaning, I believe I'm usually aware of all my wettings. And after wearing diapers for almost 25 years I think I'd know how much I've been wetting them. This has been consistently true until recently. Lately, I've noticed more and more that my diaper seems wetter than it should be. Which is actually starting to make me think I wet without noticing sometimes.

This could mean one of two things. A.) I notice when I wet, in the moment, then forget about it immediately after (because it's so blasé and normal); or B.) I legitimately wet my diaper without knowing (with the assertion that I would notice if I could).

This puts me in a confusing position, because I don't know why I am experiencing fuller diapers than expected (and believe me, I'm pretty good at keeping track [or used to be good at it ]). If anyone has any insight into this phenomenon, I'd love for you to chime in. What was your experience?

At this point I'm thinking it's more of (A). And I suppose this is a good thing? I didn't expect to forget about my voids. I'll keep more of an eye on this.

8. Fecal incontinence

At the beginning of this journey I would have said I'm untraining for #1 and not for #2. I began this journey knowing that losing #2 was possible even when only untraining for #1. Today, I'm actively untraining for #2.

That sounds contradictory. 8 times out of 10 I poo in the loo, but I'm untraining #2? Yes. The truth is, I want ANY form of incontinence. And I'm willing to go so far to work for it within reason. I've been an anal slut since I moved out of my parents house and have used butt plugs for over 20 years. Started small. Now I can take quite a large plug. Lately, I've been increasing my anal training to intentionally make myself loose in my bowels. The pleasure is fun, the potential "negative" consequences are not only acceptable, but desirable. I want to be urine incontinent, no doubt about that, but I am willing to induce bowel incontinence to get what I need. The problem is, I need to do it safely and not complicate things. Hence, anal training with butt plugs (larger, and larger, and larger, etc.) In fact, I have a plug in me now helping along with my training. Today, I can take plugs larger than pop cans. But has this made me incontinent? No, not technically. BUT! It has made my "range" quite low. Range, meaning, the amount of time I have before I urinate or defecate on myself.

In my estimation, my current urinary range is closer to 1 hour (before I am in pain), and my fecal range is within 2 minutes. I can still hold my poo, but if the urge is strong enough, I can't stop it. And I do have some form of IBS on top of that (likely due to years of doing the "marshmallow trick").

9. Conclusion

If incontinence is on a spectrum, and I suspect it is, then I think I qualify as someone who is incontinent. I wrote in a previous post that you must determine what your level of incontinence will be. If incontinence is post-void dribble, then many of us qualify. If it's releasing into your diaper, #1 or #2, without knowing it and suddenly finding yourself leaking, then few of us qualify.

I am not yet at my preferred level of incontinence, but anecdotally, I think I'm actually making progress. I have been stuck in a two year rut for, well, two years now not knowing my progress.

It wasn't until I sat down and started seeing some of the differences that convinced me that I was making some progress. And after all, progress is what counts.

• Am I at my destination yet?
  • No.
• Is what I am doing, working?
  • Yes.
• Is the general advice of the "12 month program" and the community worth investigating?
  • Absolutely.
• Will all of this effort eventually make me incontinent?
  • To be determined.

That's all the update I have for you all. Thanks for tuning in. Good luck on your journies!

[Goerge]

I've been on and off with incontinence training for a number of years, I've never really managed to control the binge/purge cycle so haven't progressed like I would like. But I've had many months in a binge wearing 24/7. I can wet at the slightest urge in small dribbles and gushes without the instinctive clench relax. I do have a constant urge with needing to urinate and when I've had a dribble or gush this this urge diminishes until a few moments later when it returns pretty strong again but with no urine in my bladder.. I have for a number of years had post void dribble, every time I have a number 2 I will uncontrollable dribble onto the floor or into my underwear, I suspect this is down to a weak sphincter muscle? Will this further get worse if I continue wearing 24/7?

I don't seem to flood my nappies even when I've had 8 beers. I sit on my settee with my legs up and as soon as the urine is produced I can let it gush into my nappy resulting in hardly any leaks. I can do this with a completely relaxed sphincter without any clenches.

I wet in every position, even lying on my side which is my sleeping position and with my legs fairly swished together, its easy to pee. Admittedly I don't sleep very well as I have a constant urge to pee but when I wake up I make sure I pee and its a small gush so even sleeping on my side I don't leak. I hardly ever flood. I'm comfortable wetting in front of people even paying for my goods at the check out.

My supported living manager thinks I'm already incontinent as do my housemates in the group home, its pretty hard to hide the big boxes being delivered every 4 weeks so I just told them the truth I need pads for incontinence.

The only reason I haven't achieved full incontinence yet is because of the bing/purge cycle. When I masterbate I will lose interest in nappies and incontinence which I know is a common thing. But as I'm getting older I know that I really want to be double incontinent. I have loved nappies since I first remember at 5 years old and I have wanted to be incontinent since I learned what it meant at 12..

This is my supplies. I'm ready for this. I just need to give up masterbating 

[Hannah YMS]

On 11/25/2022 at 7:08 AM, Goerge said:

I've been on and off with incontinence training for a number of years, I've never really managed to control the binge/purge cycle so haven't progressed like I would like. But I've had many months in a binge wearing 24/7. I can wet at the slightest urge in small dribbles and gushes without the instinctive clench relax. I do have a constant urge with needing to urinate and when I've had a dribble or gush this this urge diminishes until a few moments later when it returns pretty strong again but with no urine in my bladder.. I have for a number of years had post void dribble, every time I have a number 2 I will uncontrollable dribble onto the floor or into my underwear, I suspect this is down to a weak sphincter muscle? Will this further get worse if I continue wearing 24/7?

I don't seem to flood my nappies even when I've had 8 beers. I sit on my settee with my legs up and as soon as the urine is produced I can let it gush into my nappy resulting in hardly any leaks. I can do this with a completely relaxed sphincter without any clenches.

I wet in every position, even lying on my side which is my sleeping position and with my legs fairly swished together, its easy to pee. Admittedly I don't sleep very well as I have a constant urge to pee but when I wake up I make sure I pee and its a small gush so even sleeping on my side I don't leak. I hardly ever flood. I'm comfortable wetting in front of people even paying for my goods at the check out.

My supported living manager thinks I'm already incontinent as do my housemates in the group home, its pretty hard to hide the big boxes being delivered every 4 weeks so I just told them the truth I need pads for incontinence.

The only reason I haven't achieved full incontinence yet is because of the bing/purge cycle. When I masterbate I will lose interest in nappies and incontinence which I know is a common thing. But as I'm getting older I know that I really want to be double incontinent. I have loved nappies since I first remember at 5 years old and I have wanted to be incontinent since I learned what it meant at 12..

This is my supplies. I'm ready for this. I just need to give up masterbating 

You can do it @Goerge!

Hi all, here's a small update.

About one week ago, I woke up coughing and I accidentally messed my diaper. Not intentional at all. I just coughed and poo pushed into my padding.

About 4 days ago, I woke up at the end of a decent void into my night diapers. I was about 10% awake but I had wet my diapers in my sleep with ease and was only half-aware of what was happening. Later I found out what had happened.

It's good to note that these things aren't happening with any regularity, but they are curious markers on my journey of incontinence.

For background, I've been 24/7 since Nov 14, 2020 and actively untraining. It's been a long road, but maybe I'm seeing some progress?

[Diaper Duck]

On 11/25/2022 at 8:08 AM, Goerge said:

I've been on and off with incontinence training for a number of years, I've never really managed to control the binge/purge cycle so haven't progressed like I would like. But I've had many months in a binge wearing 24/7. I can wet at the slightest urge in small dribbles and gushes without the instinctive clench relax. I do have a constant urge with needing to urinate and when I've had a dribble or gush this this urge diminishes until a few moments later when it returns pretty strong again but with no urine in my bladder.. I have for a number of years had post void dribble, every time I have a number 2 I will uncontrollable dribble onto the floor or into my underwear, I suspect this is down to a weak sphincter muscle? Will this further get worse if I continue wearing 24/7?

I don't seem to flood my nappies even when I've had 8 beers. I sit on my settee with my legs up and as soon as the urine is produced I can let it gush into my nappy resulting in hardly any leaks. I can do this with a completely relaxed sphincter without any clenches.

I wet in every position, even lying on my side which is my sleeping position and with my legs fairly swished together, its easy to pee. Admittedly I don't sleep very well as I have a constant urge to pee but when I wake up I make sure I pee and its a small gush so even sleeping on my side I don't leak. I hardly ever flood. I'm comfortable wetting in front of people even paying for my goods at the check out.

My supported living manager thinks I'm already incontinent as do my housemates in the group home, its pretty hard to hide the big boxes being delivered every 4 weeks so I just told them the truth I need pads for incontinence.

The only reason I haven't achieved full incontinence yet is because of the bing/purge cycle. When I masterbate I will lose interest in nappies and incontinence which I know is a common thing. But as I'm getting older I know that I really want to be double incontinent. I have loved nappies since I first remember at 5 years old and I have wanted to be incontinent since I learned what it meant at 12..

This is my supplies. I'm ready for this. I just need to give up masterbating 

Good luck to you, I really hope to move out of my parents this year. I was put on a list for a apartment so I am really excited to start buying my own and starting this program. 

[Hannah YMS]

Hi all,

Small update.

About two weeks ago I woke up one morning coughing and I accidentally messed my diaper. I guess, stress incontinence of the fecal kind. It wasn't a lot of mess and easy to clean up, but still, it was unwanted. I literally had no idea it was happening until it happened.

Lots of drips and dribbles.

And today I was changing my diaper and in between the old and the new I felt a pee squirt from my bladder to my outer sphincter and before I could control it I was dribbling on the floor. It wasn't much, just a couple drops, but still. Whatever I'm doing, it's working and my continence is changing. 24/7 really is the way to go. My anal training is working (working on going to extra large [larger than a soda/pop can] at the moment) and I'm seeing results. Still not fecally incontinent but I'm a lot looser than before. Urgency can be higher on some occasions.

Hope all is well.

[DiaperboyEddie12]

@jonbearab Thank you for the update.

[Hannah YMS]

Hi everyone, hope you are all happy and diapered this evening.

Another small update.

Although I am not a confirmed regular bedwetter (yet), I am finding that late night / early morning wetting episodes while in bed are becoming easier. If I'm relaxed enough my bladder will just wake me up and scream, "I GOTTA GO NOW". As I'm untraining, I'm conflicted between just letting go and holding it. I usually let go but while I'm peeing I'll adjust myself to a new position so as to not leak during peeing and during the rest of the night. I'm a stomach sleeper so leaks out the top front of my diaper are almost guaranteed.

I'm going to try @oznl's suggestion with dual-layer terry lined KINS plastic pants and see if I don't have any leaks. If these plastic pants work for me combined with a disposable I'll be ecstatic. If I can eliminate the fear of leaking in bed during the night, I think the process of wetting at night in any position will simply increase. As mentioned in another thread, @oznl suggests that the process of bedwetting is more about disinhibition than anything else. And I agree. I've been at this journey long enough to know that he's right.

There was a time not too long ago that I woke up in the middle of peeing my diaper, and is probably the closest I've ever been to adult bedwetting. As a kid I bedwet from the time I was "out of diapers" until around 13 years old. I'd love to get back to regular bedwetting thus cementing my need for diapers and confidence in being incontinent. As an untrainer, I believe night wetting is essential towards the ultimate goal of satisfactorily untraining.

Additionally, earlier today (after waking up), as I was changing out of a wet and messy diaper, right after I applied butt paste (diaper cream) but before I could prepare my next disposable for the day, I had the urge to wet. And in that moment I had a choice. Clench and hold it or just let it go. For the first time since I've been untraining I just let it go. I peed all over the vinyl floor (and a little bit into the heat vent) in my bathroom and just let it ride. I felt like I was actually experiencing something a totally incontinent person would. It gives me the idea that I might need to wear a pullup or have my diaper immediately ready during a diaper change. Not gonna lie, also felt a little bit little, which is rare. All in all, I was proud of myself.

Untraining really is a mental game as most people have reported. There are a LOT of old habits you HAVE to overcome in order to untrain effectively, which may be why I don't have a lot of progress over the past two years. Maybe my anxieties kick in early and I can't progress as quickly as I'd like.

I'm jealous of @oznl for his progress and bedwetting, jealous of @Kif, @Enthusi, @Beccathelittle, @Little Belle, @~Brian~, etc.'s progress in their journey. I really want to join their ranks and I'm trying. Hopefully I can make it. I'm convinced the 12 month program is setting a too-good-of-standard for untraining. The author of the 12 month program seemed to have gotten lucky because as far as I can tell, most of us take an average of 3-5 years to untrain to "acceptable" degrees. Of course it's all about your perspective and experience. Someone else's incontinence goals may not necessarily match your own.

For me, my goal is absolute diaper dependence, in one way or another. I'm not sure I care how I get there anymore. I've been messing my diapers more often so at this point #1 or #2 incontinence is acceptable for me. My anal training would probably be a testament to this, but unfortunately, to this date, I am not finding that anal training effects #2 incontinence. I'm almost convinced that you actually need a neurological injury of some sort to regress in going #2. I can't lie and say that anal training does nothing, and I've definitely been looser down there, but not truly incontinent. We'll see as I progress with anal training. At the moment I can take plugs that are about 10 inches long and 4 inches wide. If you're not familiar with the scale, that's quite large. I've been at this game for almost 15 years. But alas, still no "true" incontinence.

Not sure what else to do other than continue forward. If anyone has any insights to any of these things then feel free to chime in.

Sigh.

The journey is long, but we persevere. Good luck to the rest of you and thanks for reading my update. Hope you all are well. /hugs

[oznl]

2 hours ago, jonbearab said:

I'm jealous of @oznl for his progress and bedwetting,

Well, it's true that I've developed bedwetting (albeit still unreliable although common enough to make night nappies mandatory) it took a lot longer than that "12 month" thing suggested.

You can also take some solace in that I still regard myself as quite continent during the day so that's a bit of a fail for me ?  All I really have is urgency and frequency to the point where nappies are more practical.  Instances of "accidentally" wetting myself during the day remain vanishingly small (but they are non-zero which beats the last 4 decades I guess).

The other thing I've learned about bedwetting is it's a bit like Douglas Adam's fictional character Arthur Dent when discussing learning to fly: "There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss".

The more you plan to wet the bed.  The less likely it is to happen.  We need to learn to wet the bed without actually meaning to.  It is a thing, like mildew and mushrooms, that grows in the dark for you to discover in the morning.

[Little Belle]

@jonbearab I totally agree with @oznl that this is something you just find easier when you don't overthink it. My opinion is that the 12 month program is all about replacing expert control of your bladder (being potty-trained) with expertly controlling loss of control (untraining). 

As someone who is autistic and a massive control freak myself, I recognise the need to log every sign of progress, set goals etc - I do it with literally everything I do - but I haven't done it with my nappy wearing. I just starting wearing them and enjoying them and had an open mind about where this weird journey would take me.

I especially applied it to being wet at night and decline in my #2 control. One has happened, the other not yet. But I'm not bothered if it never does because the safety and comfort of wearing a nappy is constantly with me whether I use it to it's maximum potential or not. And let's be honest, both of those developments are something of a final frontier in untraining which might not be as desirable once you achieve them.

I will also add that, as a 50-something woman, who has had children and an injury in my 40s, my continence was pretty poor anyway. It sounds like you started with a very good level of continence. So like everything in life, it's difficult to make comparisons with your neighbour as they've walked a very different path. 

Be kind to yourself about what is 'progress' or 'lack of progress' and try and relax and enjoy your life in nappies. There is only one way that your levels of continence will go - ultimately you will be completely incontinent - but avoid trying to control when that will be. 

In the meantime, enjoy your nappies! 

Little Belle ?

 

[Hannah YMS]

2 hours ago, oznl said:

Well, it's true that I've developed bedwetting (albeit still unreliable although common enough to make night nappies mandatory) it took a lot longer than that "12 month" thing suggested.

You can also take some solace in that I still regard myself as quite continent during the day so that's a bit of a fail for me ?  All I really have is urgency and frequency to the point where nappies are more practical.  Instances of "accidentally" wetting myself during the day remain vanishingly small (but they are non-zero which beats the last 4 decades I guess).

The other thing I've learned about bedwetting is it's a bit like Douglas Adam's fictional character Arthur Dent when discussing learning to fly: "There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss".

The more you plan to wet the bed.  The less likely it is to happen.  We need to learn to wet the bed without actually meaning to.  It is a thing, like mildew and mushrooms, that grows in the dark for you to discover in the morning.

I've not been trying to place too many expectations on myself but it's frustrating when others "speed ahead of you", if you know what I mean. I'm just starting the phase of "wake wetting" while in bed after having been 18/7 for many years and almost 100% 24/7 for the last two. I'm just at a point where I want progress and the slowness of untraining is just kind of cutting into my skin.

However, I know that great rewards require great sacrifice and practice, especially in what we're doing. It's just that some acquiesce easier than others. I may have been on the more stubborn end (but I honestly don't want to be), for some unknown reason.

BUT, I still think I'm making progress, albeit quite slowly.

Maybe untraining is really legit. That's another thing I think of. It's only been through my own evidence that I keep moving forward, and honesty that started with more faith than not. Still unsure of progress, but it's looking like it's **not nothing**, so there's that.

Thoughts?