Theoretical question: get sphincterotomy surgery in some other country?

[jellyjigger]

As a US citizen, could one go to some other country with more relaxed laws, such as Mexico and pay some amount of money for a doctors to perform surgery to make you permanently incontinent for that reason and that reason alone?  Based on the information I've gathered from various posts in various sites, it seems like a sphincterotomy is the name of the surgery that will allow you to never hold back your urine resulting in stress incontinence of its purest form.  Would I ever actually do this?  Probably not because I am broke and I'm not sure I'd want to do something permanent, but I am curious if someone had the money and they were willing to travel outside of the country, would it be hard to find a doctor perform this and in what country?  It seems most doctors would refuse this as it is a violation of the Hippocratic oath.

Secondarily, when one gets a sphincterotomy, does this prevent getting erections or otherwise prevent orgasm?  At the very least it seems you would get retrograde ejaculation, but that's about it.  This would at least solve a urinary retention problem I've had for a long time.

Please don't hate on me for asking.

[oznl]

It’s a touchy subject but I don’t think it’s ever right to “hate” somebody for expressing a thought.

I suspect the problems in obtaining the kind of surgical “relief” you are looking for revolve around risks such as the practitioner being sued by a regretful patient, thorny questions about entitlement to relevant health care benefits or the practitioner even risking being “struck off” by peers or perhaps even charged with assault (technically, you would have been injured and “consent” may not cut it if you’ll pardon the pun) by the relevant Government. 

All of this would be compounded by the fact that unlike more traditional forms of body identity integrity disorder (BIID), the one you’re looking at isn’t even recognized as a disorder as far as I can tell (which is largely google).

Whilst I can’t see myself lining up for something like that, I don’t necessarily see it in a different genre to other “body hacks” that people may legitimately inflict upon themselves.  I also don’t think it is the business of a state to interfere in an individual’s choices to the extent that the individual is competent to make those choices and in exercising them, does not infringe upon the rights of others.

The trouble is that not too many states agree with this position.  The “for your own good” ethos is prevalent in many Governments.

I’d be hellishly wary about low-cost, off-shored surgical procedures operating outside jurisdictional oversight though.

Far better if this was recognized as a kind of disorder with diapers as a recognized therapy.  There's plenty of evidence that control degrades with prolonged use anyway and you're free to back out at nearly any time (at least until it's too late).

[ValentinesStuff]

To be honest, with enough looking, you could probably find someone in the US willing to do the operation. BUT and it is a big BUT, the operation is not likely to done in a safe manner.

https://www.news9.com/story/5f905422ec82041321b34321/oklahoma-men-accused-of-performing-illegal-surgery-on-mans-private-parts

https://www.4029tv.com/article/okla-court-documents-shed-light-on-illegal-genital-surgery-case/34453375#

[jellyjigger]

Agreed.  This is not the kind of thing you want done in a back-alley or by unqualified doctors or in substandard environments! At this point the question is more fantasy-based than anything.  The slow but steady diaper training is still probably the best way to go should one want to achieve incontinence.  It would be neat if we saw something in our lifetime where surgery would be an accepted option, no different than a sex change, and could be performed with consent to induce incontinence say by means of an artificially implanted mini-stent that could be removed or something along those lines.  Because doctors could be working with you, this would be no more permanent than a tattoo as the surgery could be reversed.  It also has me wondering about those devices that allow an external button to "open" the bladder.  For people that have such devices, I wonder if just keep the button depressed all the time, if that is even possible, would cause constant leaking or not. It probably depends on the person and which sphincters are actually functional.

[~Brian~]

On 11/3/2020 at 3:27 PM, jellyjigger said:

As a US citizen, could one go to some other country with more relaxed laws, such as Mexico and pay some amount of money for a doctors to perform surgery to make you permanently incontinent for that reason and that reason alone?  Based on the information I've gathered from various posts in various sites, it seems like a sphincterotomy is the name of the surgery that will allow you to never hold back your urine resulting in stress incontinence of its purest form.  Would I ever actually do this?  Probably not because I am broke and I'm not sure I'd want to do something permanent, but I am curious if someone had the money and they were willing to travel outside of the country, would it be hard to find a doctor perform this and in what country?  It seems most doctors would refuse this as it is a violation of the Hippocratic oath.

Secondarily, when one gets a sphincterotomy, does this prevent getting erections or otherwise prevent orgasm?  At the very least it seems you would get retrograde ejaculation, but that's about it.  This would at least solve a urinary retention problem I've had for a long time.

Please don't hate on me for asking.

@jellyjigger

I am NOT gonna hate on you, but as an incontinent guy, I want to let you know that I see this kind of thing posted on IC Desires all the time -There have been questions posted such as:

"If you could take a PILL to lose control of bladder or bowels, would you do it?"

"What does incontinence feel like?"

"How do lose control of bladder/bowel?"

While there are individuals who want to find out what its like to lose control, the easiest way to do that WITHOUT hurting yourself, would be to wear diapers, and each time you have to use the potty, release in the diaper, and after a while, you will understand what "losing control" means.  It means that you're going to use the diaper, regardless of time, location, activity or readiness.  You are going to use that diaper 24/7, and you will be changing yourself each time you wet or mess.  You are gonna need to prepare for situations where the situation is NOT ideal, and you would have to clean yourself up, and roll on - You will be using diapers - whether you want to or not.  This also may mean that you may have to wear a wet/messy diaper for a few hours, if you cannot change right away, so you'll probably be walking around in a wet/messy one for a while - WET ones don't bother ME, but Messy ones, I can deal with if necessary.

In the above situation, you can DESIRE incontinence, and wish for it, because in practice, you don't lose control because of outside factors.  You CAN WEAR diapers, if that is what you want to do, but you won't hurt yourself, because control is maintained, and you can decide to wear/use diapers.

I don't advise ANYONE do this, even if it would result in the results you may seek.  as @Transfusionelle says, "why the heck would I want to have an operation to remove ALL control of your sphincter, or your bladder or anything like that."  I agree with her - This operation removes control FOREVER and EVER from you, and not only that, I don't think any US medical professional would even suggest such a procedure, NOR would it be medically ETHICAL, and yes, a violation of the Hippocratic Oath - No doctor is gonna want to do this - It is one thing to have the DESIRE to lose control of bladder or bowel, which is something you can dream of, or if you wish, make yourself wet or mess, but it is QUITE a different thing if you NEVER had control of bladder or bowel to start with.

For people who are incontinent, they NEVER had, or have VERY little control, if any, or bladder or bowels, use of diapers or other Incontinence products is NOT a DESIRE - It is NECESSARY - They only know that they can't TELL when or IF it will happen, but they KNOW that it will happen eventually.  They know that eventually, they will wet/mess,  themselves, and they need to be able to deal with the reality of what happens.  It can be inconvenient, embarrassing, and if not dealt with properly, people will know, even if it is well hidden.

I KNOW what it is like to be Incontinent, because I live it:  If you have excess fluids (in my case in my legs) and you take a diuretic, you will KNOW what it feels like to NOT have any control:  You NEED to pee, and you will PEE until you feel like you've released TEN GALLONS of fluids:  Let me put it another way:  It can feel like a two or three year old kid trying to learn to potty, and they miss, and they unload the whole thing into the waiting diaper, and they can't help doing it, because it just happens.

The same thing happens if you do a BM:  If you really want to experience a wet/messy diaper, diuretics and Miralax would be the closest thing I could suggest, although it will be a mess - or eat something that you know will cause you to have a BM - If you have a release, and you are not prepared, because it happens (either 1 or BOTH ways) and you end up with a wet and messy diaper, then BANG - You've just experienced what it feels like to have NO SAY in what happens, when or where!

This is what it is like to be incontinent - Really, No Joke  -   In the above example, the person can't help what they are doing, and they release when and wherever it happens.  They didn't WANT to release when they do, it just happens, and there is NO WARNING, so you're gonna have a wet/messy diaper to deal with. Diapers are your Undies, and you USE them as your potty - In this case, you DON'T GET to choose to wear - You wear because you have to, and you don't want to worry that you're gonna use them, because you WILL do it, it's a foregone conclusion.  

(Note: I do understand that this is Incontinent Desires, and there are going to be people who dream of being incontinent.  They want to experience what it is like, I GET that, I REALLY do, but please do not think that desiring incontinence is FUN, because having to deal with it on its merits is NOT - The thing that can make it FUN for most people is if they ACCEPT that they are incontinent, know how they want to deal with it, and if Diapers are the choice, and they are wearing and using them, then they can decide to add other aspects for the FUN part, since they already wear diapers anyway, and add the AB/DL pieces in to make it fun for them.  The ways you MAKE it fun are as important as being able to being able to accept the situation and roll with it - The most important thing is, if you or a friend are dealing with it, the best thing is to be there for your friend, as I have been for mine that have had incontinence issues.)

I remember when someone posted the question of "If you could take a pill to become incontinent, would you do it?"  That night, we had a discussion in chat, and I remember @~ashley~ saying, that she would take a PILL NOT to be:  I wouldn't do it (take a pill to become) because I am, and because of people like @Evelyn DellcerroI understand and accept what I have, and want to enjoy my life, and if I have to wear, that's OK, because it means that I don't want to worry about the small stuff - Hell, with all the things that happen in life, if this is the hardest thing I have to accept, its easier now - because I NOW understand what it took me 24 YEARS to Understand: I can't help being iC, and there is NOTHING wrong with accepting liking diapers or using them as intended - FULL STOP!

as @Evelyn Dellcerrosays "LIVE IT"

Brian

 

[Evelyn Dellcerro]

In my opinion and I am only thinking for myself and myself alone it would be morally wrong. I enjoy the feeling of poop exiting my anus. It is the main reason I get off on pooping my diaper. For me it's the sense of the poop coming out. Getting that type of surgery would put an end to poogasms and the likes for me. Being someone that enjoys anal sex amd the ability to poop on a mans penis and get off on it would cease to be enjoyable anymore. So for me there would be no way on gods green earth I would even entertain that thought. I have complete empathy for those that are incontinent, and would not wish that on anyone.

[~Brian~]

23 minutes ago, Evelyn Dellcerro said:

In my opinion and I am only thinking for myself and myself alone it would be morally wrong. I enjoy the feeling of poop exiting my anus. It is the main reason I get off on pooping my diaper. For me it's the sense of the poop coming out. Getting that type of surgery would put an end to poogasms and the likes for me. Being someone that enjoys anal sex amd the ability to poop on a mans penis and get off on it would cease to be enjoyable anymore. So for me there would be no way on gods green earth I would even entertain that thought. I have complete empathy for those that are incontinent, and would not wish that on anyone.

@Evelyn Dellcerro

I agree with you:  I wouldn't want to lose control of the sphincter, because that would make you lose the ability to FEEL anything, and part of the way you KNOW you have to go #2, or know that you have something going on that you need to deal with, is if and ONLY IF you can feel what the heck is going on:  I believe for a guy the sphincter, the prostate, and the glans are the most SENSITIVE areas, and if you lose that sensitivity, you lose the ability to ENJOY the FEELINGS you experience. 

If you can't FEEL what's going on, then you may not know when you HAVE to go until you feel it after the mess hits the diaper - This can happen also if you have some nerve damage that affects the sphincter  I too, would NOT want to wish incontinence on anyone, and I too, have empathy for those that experience it, since I have helped friends in the past, and my brother was Incontinent, and wore diapers all 10 years of his life due to disability.

Brian

[oznl]

I think that there may be some similarity in this proposition towards the (slightly) more mainstream concept of voluntary amputation (elective impairment) to resolve body image integrity disorder.  Have a read of the paper below.  There are I believe, striking parallels:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11673-019-09959-5

Voluntary amputation (although it seems better known to medical science) is arguably even more extreme as it is irreversible.

I accept that some might view such a procedure with abhorrence (I doubt I would be lining up for this myself) but should personal abhorrence automatically justify general prohibition?

I’m of the John Stuart Mill ethos here: self protection of society is the only valid reason for interfering with an individual’s liberty of action.  A secondary argument exists that such a procedure MAY be in the patient’s best interest when viewed from a psychological rather than just a biological context.

Having said that, just like sex reassignment surgery, I would think it prudent that there should be a mandatory “try before you buy” phase.  In this scenario, perhaps this could be effected with stents or botox: qualified people can comment here.  A candidate would be rendered temporarily incontinent and have to live that way for an extended period of time before progressing to permanence.

There must be caveats here with respect to that person’s ability to call upon public funds or consume resources at the expense of needier patients.

[Old_PA]

I'm happy as a pig in mud at the moment. For the last 48 hours I have been 'wearing' my first totally comfortable urinary stent. It's not coming out anytime soon. 

 

[jellyjigger]

Surgery designed to induce incontinence IMO seems to be in the ball-park of assisted suicide; physicians intentionally causing harm, but providing some human benefit to the patient (reducing distress).  This is always going to be controversial.

Thanks for your careful responses ~Brian~, they have been taken to heart and I don't disagree with your posts.  Its easy for one to desire incontinence when they are continent as the grass will always be greener on the other side.  One thing I will say is that for those who have tried to achieve this for decades, even wearing 24/7 with little to no positive results, and not wanting to harm the body with prescriptions or alcohol (which seems to work better than prescriptions), it seems surgery would be the healthier choice, but one that requires the consent of a 3rd party.  I started this thread because I'm curious about the physical mechanics of the "ideal" surgery if one were ever available, no different from a "magic" pill, and I appreciate all insight including those that discourage such an option if it were available as this is certainly a bad idea in general for many reasons.

I was originally thinking urinary sphincter muscles while still maintaining bowel continence, but the responses bring up an interesting point I did not consider.  Could an anal or urinary sphincterotomy result in loss in sensation and thus loss of or diminished orgasm? I thought sphincterotomies (cut to the muscle) would only alter physics but not nerve sensation?  If that is the case, would an implanted stent in the bladder be a better option so as to not prevent a loss in sensation/orgasm while still achieving incontinence?

All of this is theoretical incontinence achieved by surgery with the idea that sexual functions would remain intact.  The only caveat here is that complete stress incontinence, i.e. both sphincters in a permanently open state (known medically as "stovepipe urethra") will almost always result in some level of retrograde ejaculation, at least in males.

[Mr Urge Incontinent]

As some one who is incontinent I wouldn't wish this affliction on my worst enemy. It's a royal pain in the butt, costly, inconvenient, embarrassing, and completely pervasive in everything you do, and I mean everything. There is no "off" or "reset" switch to push when you grow tired of the burdens it presents, this condition is forever. It truly is life changing. If it were possible, I would gladly exchange my incontinence with someone who desires it. 

There's proverbial saying that goes... "the wanting is sometimes more satisfying than the having". This is certainly applicable here.

From my perspective, I would approach any incontinence desire like a movie actor.  Get into the role of an incontinent person and stay in character on or off the camera of life. Basically live the lifestyle with all of it's affectations and encumbrances but without ever giving up control. Externally people around you will never know the difference if you commit to the part completely and are utterly convincing. But you have to own it deep down. From my wanderings through this forum (and others) many of it's members are doing this now and are completely comfortable with it, satisfied with their decision to live this way. It's better to have the option to stop vs. not because of permanent physical mutilation from surgery. Once done there is no going back.

There is no need to permanently harm yourself in order to gain social "permission" to use diapers (which in my opinion is what most are really looking for). Just use them and enjoy your incontinence movie role. Who know you may win the "acadepee award".

[jellyjigger]

Philisophical dillema: If the primary desire for opting for surgical incontinence is because you don't like the idea of "having to lie" so as to gain *social acceptance* for the emotional void in your lifetime that is somehow filled by diapers and/or adult baby play [because you would be truly incontinent]. This would allow coming-out-of-the-closet in your newly justified diaper wearing to pretty much the rest of the world (the holy grail of ABDL acceptance); you really probably wouldn't lose too many friends (if any), and coworkers and family members would be normally very supportive.  Its easier to justify the "alternative truth", because nobody is asking the *right* question.  Ommission of information is a type of deception itself and that's the moral dilemma with surgery in addition to potentially causing irreversible damage to your self and any risks associated with general anesthesia, etc.

The option might be to "white-lie" to the world that you are incontinent, when in fact you are not.  This would be a complete lie, perhaps a white lie, but the moral dilemma here might not be much different than the dilemma for surgery. You'd keep the secret even from the most closest people in your life (family, extended family, kids, spouse, etc) so you could live the life of an incontinent, relying on likely idiopathic incontinence diagnoses to account for the fact that current medical science can't prove you *cannot* have either enuresis or urge incontinence -- peeing on the way to the bathroom can happen to anyone and wetting the bed can be due to deep sleep. Period.  The question with this scenario, is that is THIS overt lie much different, morally speaking than going the surgical route.

There is no black and white right or wrong answer. Option A or B fits your lifestyle or it doesn't depending on the chaos in your life that might result. Both options involve different kinds of deception and have pros/cons. But, IF this deception makes you feel WHOLE more than anything else going on in your life right now, you *MIGHT* be justified in living in one of these minor indiscretions because being "TRUE" to yourself MAY take precedence for purposes of spiritual healing, right? As opposed to living your life as a sheeple drone zombie the general public has been trained in that will always be depressed, and unknowing about anything in their own bodies and must rely 100% on external humans to tell them what's wrong with their own body.  Oppositionally to this is a person diving deep inside and using intuition to be your own doctor, psychologist, counselor and listening to what you think your body needs. (this process actually helps with a bit of cannabis and I'm being 100% serious)  If you've hit a dead end in your life and you happen to have AB/DL tendencies and you have childhood trauma healing to go through, becoming incontinent *MIGHT* help you?  Take that last sentence with a grain of salt, because that depends on what YOU really need. Big-pharma or the medical industrial complex aren't going to get to the bottom of any condition, EVER because there's no money [or power] there, so you have to take some things in your own hands.  Becoming incontinent could be theraputic for some.

If something like this allows someone an opportunity to heal childhood trauma as a result of becoming incontinent in some [creative] way, option A or B actually hurts no-one IMO, you just also have to be conscious not to allow it and be willing to go 100% incontinent everywhere in your life or none at all; this will avoid chaos.

[WestSussex]

You don't have to cut your sphincter to pieces. Some Botox would suffice. 

[BrownBobby]

Long answer?  Yes, this is completely possible. In fact, it's possible in the United States.  I know because I've done it.  If someone is truly desiring to be incontinent (and make a decision that WILL impact the rest of their life), it can be done.  However...I would strongly caution making absolutely sure you want to proceed before beginning.  For me, it was a VERY involved process.  Just to give you an idea of the 18 months it took:

• I had to find a urologist who was even willing to consider it.  This step WILL lead to utter embarrassment, since you're not likely to find that doctor on your first visit.  This took a month.  After that...
• I had to begin a regimen of trying other solutions first before surgery would even be put on the table.  That involved physical therapy, prescription drugs, and muscle weakening.  This took six months, and while I made progress, I wasn't where I deeply desired to be.  So...
• I asked the urologist to consider an operation.   Unsurprisingly, they wanted proof that this was something I truly desired, and that I was sound of mind to ask for it.  That began five months of one-on-one sessions with two different counselors, each helping me work through my thoughts on it.  After five months, each one was willing to write a letter of support.  Then...
• The surgery itself had to be scheduled.  As it turns out, elective surgery involving incredibly precise tools can be hard to schedule.  This itself took six months, between talking with insurance about what would and wouldn't be covered, finding an operating theater, and getting all the ducks in a row for the day of the surgery.  But even then...
• The surgery happened without any major hitches.  The recovery, however...I spent a week with a catheter that was dripping blood from the incisions.  This even led to an ER visit when the cath got blocked, leading to having to explain to even more doctors and nurses what was going on so they would be able to help.  After a week (and the cath getting blocked AGAIN), I was able to see how things went.  So...where am I now?

The good news is that the consciously controlled, external urethral sphincter is weakened dramatically.  It still can hold, but not for long, and it absolutely can't stop anything mid-stream.  But even then...I wasn't incontinent.  Turns out, I had a subconsciously-controlled pelvic floor that was insistent on making up for the sabotaged muscle.  So, here I am, ten months later, and I'm still in talks with the urologist to figure out how to proceed.  For now, it's restarting the prescription drug regimen and going back to physical therapy.  If that doesn't solve the problem...then it's going to be ANOTHER operation, with ANOTHER recovery time, and no guarantee of long term results.  Fun fact: sphincterotomies have a one in three chance of reversing themselves within five years, which leads to either regaining control (if you're lucky) or being unable to pass urine at all (if you're not lucky).   

Short answer?  Yep!  You can do it, and even in the US.  Just realize it is really a complicated, messy affair with lots of risks and chances for complications and failures.  If you have any specific questions, though, feel free to ask.

[Mr Urge Incontinent]

@jellyjigger... I agree the philosophical dilemma about the reasons for either decision path can be seen as two sides of the same coin. Either way someone having surgery performed to obtain incontinence where there is none is in of itself is a lie. Should people learn of the reasons why it was done may view it strangely with heavy concern vs. much differently for playing the role of an incontinent person. A lie is a lie no matter what shade of grey it is colored. At least with role playing it is more easily reversible, where as with surgery is not (or may be very difficult and costly to undo).

@BrownBobby... Interesting recount. What you didn't mention is why you had it done (physical or emotional needs) and how is it you were able to bypass the ethics part of the doctors medical practice as to "do no harm"? Did it fall under the same premise like gender reassignment surgery? I know personally my doctor felt bad having to remove damaged and necrotic nerve tissue that he knew would render me largely incontinent. But it was done to prevent bigger neurological problems down the road. His ethics standards were in play, but it didn't make it any easier for him knowing the end result.

Also, what kind of hurdles did you have to overcome with the insurance company in getting them to agree to pay for such surgery since it was deliberate and not corrective? I would think they would be reluctant to pay for this because of the long term liabilities should complications develop requiring more surgery (of which they will have to pay out again). Or did you have to sign away certain liabilities both current and future? This then raises the question about future coverage by any insurance company since your case history will show this was a deliberate act and it may limit their desire to underwrite coverage for you (or done with huge restrictions). 

 

 

[oznl]

On 11/7/2020 at 3:31 PM, Mr Urge Incontinent said:

There is no need to permanently harm yourself in order to gain social "permission" to use diapers (which in my opinion is what most are really looking for). Just use them and enjoy your incontinence movie role. Who know you may win the "acadepee award".

I think in my case at least (unwaveringly failed to practice any urinary continence for nearly 20 months now) you are correct.

If I was IC, it would provide a degree of social sanction and in a strange way, absolve me from being perpetually judged by others.  I believe this is why I’ve made zero effort to maintain continence.  If I was to lapse into full incontinence, my life would change very little from how it currently is and I wouldn’t be shouting about it from the roof tops.  It would be a private as the fact that I’m permanently diapered is today.

I’d think about the Botox thing JUST to calibrate that there would be no real difference to how things are for me today compared to how they might be if I continue on my current trajectory.  It would be a road-test.  My current head-space is something like “Oh if it happens, it happens and in some ways, it will make things a bit easier for me”.

I wouldn’t be too keen on dodgy surgery due to risk and expense.  I’m not sure how I’d even feel about non-dodgy surgery.  I honestly don’t know.  It seems a bit, um, deliberative and done for reasons that I don't think should have to exist.

Despite what some say, I *have* seen some physiological changes over time.  They are slower and less dramatic than a famous program suggests for me.  At this point I *think* I am still continent during the day because I still choose to relax my urinary but there are new limits and caveats around this.  At night I have become an intermittent bed-wetter: a habit I had previously discarded shortly after my second birthday.

I suspect it IS possible to fake it until you make it and if so, this would have to be better than surgery.

[jellyjigger]

Botox would be great, but you'd still need a willing doctor and I believe it needs to be re-done every 6 months to 1 year.  Besides that, Botox would make sense.  Maybe given the temporary incontinence you'd gain would allow you to atrophy the reflex long enough that you'd be incontinent much easier after 6 months?  Hmmmm....  makes me wonder if could you work up some sort of lie that you wouldn't have to "prove" over many expensive tests have retention and have this done over the weekend in some outpatient clinic?

I'm assuming BrownBobby had some other stuff going on in the bladder area and the doctor probably thought they were helping, but some details on how you were able to get the doctors on board would be interesting if you'd be willing to share.

But, the fact that a sphincterotomy gone bad could result in retention or continence coming back certainly seems like the efforts and risks outweighs any gains.  I guess people wanting incontinence should really just stick to the slow and hard way of wearing 24/7 and trying to remember to release all the time.  Inserting catheters to leave the sphincter open isn't really my cup of tea either - I've tried it 2 or 3 times with straight temporaries (non-foley, no baloon), but was never able to get any confirmation from online sources that is was safe to leave in for very long so I was worried about leaving it in and always pulled it out after 30 minutes or so.  It was uncomfortable going in and out.  I didn't like the idea that I see a little blood too as I worry about if something bad was to happen, how to explain to the ER people I was playing with catheters.  Maybe my fear is unfounded as I see that a lot of people use them, but do you have to pull them out to have sex or masturbate?  Seems you would. hmmm...

[ValentinesStuff]

Botox is also temporary, just in case you find out the wanting is better than the having.

[BrownBobby]

@Mr Urge Incontinent (which is an awesome name!):

Funnily enough, the entire process was...surprisingly mundane. I made it a rule going into this that I was going to be as truthful as I possibly could be in the process. And for the most part, I could tell people exactly what was happening, and why.  But for that to make sense...we'll need to answer why I would want to do something like this to begin with.

I've known since I was a small child that being in diapers and using diapers was what I wanted. I underestimated just how deep that desire ran. I fought indulging it at all for twenty years, and even once I did, I was filled with guilt and doubt about what the heck I was doing.  I thought I couldn't lead a successful life, doing important things, and being a respectful and upstanding person...if I was wearing diapers. Those thoughts really started eating away at me, and after three bouts of depression and an attempt to end my life, I finally gave up and threw everything in the ring, saying that I wasn't going to give up until I explored this side of me more.

I moved in with a Sir/Dom as his full-time "diaper boi," with the clear expectation that I was to be in diapers 24/7, period.  It was utterly amazing how much more...right life was once I started wearing full time. My mood increased dramatically, and my success in my work and social life went up as well. But there was still one thing that bothered me.  I wanted to go beyond just wearing them.  I wanted them to be a necessity for me, something I was dependent on fully.  As my therapist put it, I wanted some part of my life where I was abdicating control to help me control the other parts of my life.  I think he's exactly right.

My now-former Sir promised to work on decreasing my bladder control, but it never materialized.  After six years of wearing 24/7, I still was unable to truly have an "accident" of any sort.  This was made worse by the fact that I had trained three other people in that time frame to become diaper dependent, so the fact I couldn't succeed myself was distressing. Every time I thought I had made some headway, my mental health improved.  Every time I found that a path forward didn't work, I was devastated.  One of my friends who knows about this started saying he could tell how well my untraining was going just by my mood.  It got to the point that I started trying riskier options to become more incontinent.  One ER trip later, I realized I was at the point that I had to do something, both in how I was untraining and how I viewed the process and myself.

Now, on to the actual question of "How the heck did you get someone to do this?"  The answer is...I told the truth.  With a counselor's blessing, I started seeking urologists who might help me.  I didn't go, "Hey!  Can we have surgery?"  I simply stated the facts of my situation -- I had been wearing diapers for seven years, using them exclusively for urinating, and I want to make my incontinence worse, safely.  After one attempt led to me being taken to the ER, I want to work on this with an expert, under medical supervision, to make sure what I'm doing will both work and not endanger my health.  One urologist said they couldn't work with me.  Another refused to talk with me as I asked if they were "kink-aware" or "LGBT friendly" (hoping that being LGBT friendly might mean being more open-minded about something like this).  The third heard me say my piece...and simply said, "Go on."  It was them who brought up surgery as even being an option, when I mentioned stents as something I was looking into--in their words, if I was going to do that, surgery was likely both safer and longer term.  I couldn't argue with that logic.

For those saying, "But what about doing no harm," I have to emphasize how much there was that I did before even being able to pursue surgery as an option.  In the urologist's words, "Surgery is for when we exhaust our other options."  In the meeting where we discussed surgery, we looked at what options were left, and at that point, it was either long-term catherization that came with its own laundry list of risks, or pursuing a surgery...after making sure two counselors could ensure I was benefiting more from the surgery than the potential harm that could happen.  The parallel to gender dysphoria/gender reassignment surgery is a good one--one therapist used that as the framework for how we worked through everything.  I was surprised at how well it applied.

As for insurance, the key for all of this is that it was above board.  You're right that insurance wasn't keen on paying for an elective surgery, but they were more than happy to negotiate for an in-network rate that I payed out-of-pocket.  However, I was surprised how much insurance DID cover--counselor appointments, physical therapy appointments, and after the first session, even urology appointments.  I was truthful about the issue as much as I could, but on my medical paperwork, it lists what's true--I have issues with retaining urine (mental ones), I am seeking to work on those muscles to wet more easily (also true), and helping explore the reasons for why this is happening psychologically (also true!).  That's the cover story for those doctors that don't need to know the full story...but honestly, there's only been twice I haven't been 100% honest about every single reason why this is happening.

Sorry for the book, but I wanted to make sure I gave you good answers for your questions.  Again, if you have any more, don't be afraid to ask.

 

 

[username]

I think if I was looking for incontinence surgery the best and easiest option would be the Lords Stretch. This procedure was used to treat Haemorrhoids many years ago but got out of favour because of the significant risk of fecal incontinence. It's relative simple and if anal stretching is done properly will result in permanent fecal incontinence.

http://fissuresurgerymd.com/anal-dilation-lords-operation

Although this procedure fascinates me and I don't think it would be that hard to find somebody willing to do it especially in Eastern Europe or Turkey if I thought about it rationally permanent fecal incontinence would suck. I read that if done right the incontinence would be total and passive which means you'll be unaware that you have messed yourself. If I put this into protective when I have gone 24/7 for urine only incontinence pretending and needed a bowel movement while wearing 90% of the time this was inconvenient and would of caused severe embarrassment had I messed myself and there is no hiding a poopy nappy. With passive fecal incontinence I will mess myself 2/3 times a day for the rest of my life and there is nothing I can do about it.

[Mr Urge Incontinent]

@BrownBobby...

Thanks for the in depth explanation of your situation. As someone who is incontinent I have been curious to understand the motivations of people who permanently seek this condition. It's a difficult and life altering affliction but very manageable (and in many cases treatable) and I wonder why people want to add this type of burden to their lives. I get role playing and regression, but permanent physical alteration still mystifies me. However through your explanation (and others) it presents the argument that emotional needs are just as relevant as the physical ones and your situation very much follows this. I also can understand the attraction diapers offer for many people who need them as a security blanket when dealing with the challenges of life. I wish you well in your life's choice.

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Mr Urge Incontinent (which is an awesome name!):

Thanks. It basically describes my condition pretty well and seemed to be a fitting user name. 

[Little Sherri]

This has been a very interesting read, a lot of thoughtful responses. If I can throw in my 2 cents, even if a surgical option were readily available, I don't think I would consider it. Background: I've been in diapers for about 18 months. The only times I really wish I had less control are when I get distracted during the day and forget to forget to hold it, if that makes sense, and then after 30 or 40 minutes I have a sudden, strong, almost painful urge to pee, that can result in a volume of output that can be detrimental to the lifespan of a diaper. That, and when I'm sleeping - I really wish I could go without waking up. I'm almost there - I can fall back asleep while going - but it would be great if that would take care of itself more often. Every now and then I suspect it does. But I wouldn't subject Mr. Happy to surgery in order to achieve this. I'm fine with immersing myself in the role of a man who wears diapers. At this point in the process, while I could, I know, at any time, go back, I do pretty much "need" them day-to-day; reverting would take some training and would be an unpleasant and anxiety-provoking process. 

But I am highly sympathetic to people for whom this desire is akin to a body-dysmorphic disorder - I don't live in their world. For me, wearing diapers is more like a combination of an antianxiety drug, and an antidepressant, that I can take without a prescription. Not to say that there aren't side effects, but I'll take diaper rash and quizzical glances from my wife over anhedonia and erectile dysfunction and the other 22 things that they rattle off like an auctioneer at the end of the pharmaceutical commercials. 

[Ferix]

I'll be getting the surgery as soon as I can. However, my search is on hold until a vaccine for covid is out.

My desires to be incontinent are profound and undeniable; I've always had it and it's only gotten stronger the longer I remain in control. The only times I have felt like myself are times when I've used a catheter or a home-made stent.

Once covid is over, I'll be systematically going to urologists in my area until I can find one that's willing to help. If I can't find one in my area, I have a lead on one that's within driving distance that I can go to.

I plan on being honest with them and I'll tell them I need help. I'm going to tell them I've always had a desire to be incontinent. I feel its a form of biid and I get dysphoria feelings similar to those experienced by transgendered people. I've done a lot to try to make myself incontinent, including wearing 24/7 for several years, using catheters, and making home-made stents, putting myself at risk for a UTI. My whole life is focused around wearing diapers--I even run my own cloth diaper business. In many words, I want tell them I need their help so I don't continue to have these feelings or need to put myself at risk with the use of catheters and stents.

I would note that wearing 24/7 to untrain has given me limited success. I would say I'm diaper dependent in many situations but not all. I could potentially avoid accidents by having tactical wees by being strategic about peeing in advance to prevent an accident later. I've been 24/7 for 3 and a half years and my untraining has gotten me to the point where I can't hold it for very long from when I start to feel the pressure build. The slope is steep and quick as I have a minute or less from when I first get signs I need to go to when I can't hold it anymore. I also find myself mid pee in some situations when I'm not paying attention to my bladder. However, I feel like I still have some control and if I were at home, I would likely be able to make it to the toilet in most situations.

Even with my progress in untrianing, it's still not enough or satisfactory. I also do not like the idea that the control I lost could come back. I want incontinence so much, it's ridiculous, I don't understand it, but the best thing I've ever done in my life was embrace my desires. I'm happier with myself for accepting diapers into my life than I ever was when I didn't allow myself to wear diapers all the time. I look forward to the time I actually have no control over my bladder and need diapers. Heck, I'd get a procedure to be bowel incontinent too if that were available.

I feel like my view is not the view of most people who like to wear diapers and still have control, and that's okay. I believe everyone should wear diapers exactly as much as they need to, unless you live close by to me, in which case I'll be keeping you in diapers during our hangouts.

[Elbs]

On 11/6/2020 at 11:58 AM, jellyjigger said:

Surgery designed to induce incontinence IMO seems to be in the ball-park of assisted suicide; physicians intentionally causing harm, but providing some human benefit to the patient (reducing distress).  This is always going to be controversial.

Pretty drastic difference between being incontinent and being dead, imo.

Anyway, there's lots of precedent for causing harm to result in benefit in medicine already. For example, cutting someone open and removing a part of their body because that body part is making them sick.

And there's also precedent for people being allowed to make the personal choice to permanently remove functionality from their body in the area of reproduction. Why not other areas? Infertility is a devastating condition for some and a desired state for others, and so is incontinence.