Getting Surgery in Mexico

[padded-nightly]

2 hours ago, superabsorbantpolymer said:

I should not date, I should randomly marry someone the first day I meet them.

I should not research where I go, just pick a random country where they may be a war or extreme weather event.

I should immediately purchase all the best gear for any new interest, because it's by hobby. 

I've done two out of three of those, one of them multiple times, and it's worked out amazingly almost every time.

 

 

[Elfy]

3 hours ago, FretaBWet said:

Just for the record, transgender surgery requires counseling and psychiatric sign off by a psychiatrist and living full time including the ability to work in the new gender for about a year. Nobody just gets surgery without knowing they can productively live and support themselves after surgery because you can't go back.

Hugs,

Freta

Absolutely, my wife has had the surgery and my girlfriend is getting prepped for it. I don't mean to suggest the surgeries are similar in importance or anything like that. I was just using them to compare reactions people have towards them. That to others it could seem extreme and not worth the risks, but to the people electing to have the surgery it is massively beneficial to them and gives them better quality of life.

[StikineUrsine]

On 1/24/2024 at 5:35 PM, Reddy said:

The reason it's not foolish is because I already know I like diapers and want to be incontinent.  I wanted to be incontinent for years and years so it has been a long time thinking about it.  So I think I know what I want.  So personally I just don't need to wear diapers right now for no reason when it would feel awkward doing that.  I have done my time already.

The thing is, you have no idea what the day-to-day experience of being incontinent and requiring diapers all the time is actually like. You know the *fantasy* of being incontinent, but you don't know what it's actually like to live life in diapers 24/7. That's the rub, and that's why I agree with the folks who are encouraging you to actually experience it first.

[jeremy12312]

16 hours ago, Reddy said:

Yes, my plan is to use the referral after surgery.  I actually already made an appointment with the urologist for April,

I still have no idea what you plan on telling the Dr during this visit that is going to make any sense to them. Nobody, I mean nobody, on the “legitimate” urology treatment path has surgery as a first line of treatment before a specialist consult. They’re going to look at a calendar and see that this event happened between the time you mentioned a minor concern to your regular doctor and the time you’re seeing them. Radical surgery in the vanilla world is the LAST line of defense, not some casual thing, which obviously is why you have to leave the country in order for it to happen.

They’re going to ask about your prior diagnosis and the urologist you saw previously. They are going to know you’re lying about this, because your backstory makes no sense when framed against the traditional treatment path that they have practiced their entire medical career. They’ve literally seen it all before, except you will be the first person, ever, who walked into an initial consult AFTER having radical surgery. 

So, how are you going to answer their line of questioning when they’re trying to figure out what happened in this novel situation?  I honestly think you’ll get a better treatment plan from them if you come clean. 

This is absolutely a Monkey Paw granting wishes situation. Your whole life, it seems, you’ve wished you were incontinent and through the magic of medical tourism, your wish has been granted. 

Brace yourself for getting absolutely everything you’ve ever wanted. 

[Reddy]

2 hours ago, jeremy12312 said:

I still have no idea what you plan on telling the Dr during this visit that is going to make any sense to them. Nobody, I mean nobody, on the “legitimate” urology treatment path has surgery as a first line of treatment before a specialist consult. They’re going to look at a calendar and see that this event happened between the time you mentioned a minor concern to your regular doctor and the time you’re seeing them. Radical surgery in the vanilla world is the LAST line of defense, not some casual thing, which obviously is why you have to leave the country in order for it to happen.

They’re going to ask about your prior diagnosis and the urologist you saw previously. They are going to know you’re lying about this, because your backstory makes no sense when framed against the traditional treatment path that they have practiced their entire medical career. They’ve literally seen it all before, except you will be the first person, ever, who walked into an initial consult AFTER having radical surgery. 

So, how are you going to answer their line of questioning when they’re trying to figure out what happened in this novel situation?  I honestly think you’ll get a better treatment plan from them if you come clean. 

This is absolutely a Monkey Paw granting wishes situation. Your whole life, it seems, you’ve wished you were incontinent and through the magic of medical tourism, your wish has been granted. 

Brace yourself for getting absolutely everything you’ve ever wanted. 

I disagree, because I think it's very normal to get an initial consult after the surgery.  It's two different doctors.  One performs the surgery, and then the other one I have the initial consult afterwards.  I already told my primary doctor my first urologist (i.e. Mexico) wants to do the procedure and I am thinking about it.  He gave me the referral as a way to get a 2nd opinion in case I want to.  I can always have the surgery and get the 2nd opinion afterwards.  And I already told him I don't like medications so this makes surgery the first option.

I am so excited to suddenly get what I wanted.  It does actually seem like a magic wish granted.

[jeremy12312]

1 hour ago, Reddy said:

I disagree

Luckily we’re going to find out which one of us is right soon enough, but also luckily only one of us has to live with the results. 

[superabsorbantpolymer]

4 hours ago, jeremy12312 said:

I still have no idea what you plan on telling the Dr during this visit that is going to make any sense to them. Nobody, I mean nobody, on the “legitimate” urology treatment path has surgery as a first line of treatment before a specialist consult. They’re going to look at a calendar and see that this event happened between the time you mentioned a minor concern to your regular doctor and the time you’re seeing them. Radical surgery in the vanilla world is the LAST line of defense, not some casual thing, which obviously is why you have to leave the country in order for it to happen.

They’re going to ask about your prior diagnosis and the urologist you saw previously. They are going to know you’re lying about this, because your backstory makes no sense when framed against the traditional treatment path that they have practiced their entire medical career. They’ve literally seen it all before, except you will be the first person, ever, who walked into an initial consult AFTER having radical surgery. 

So, how are you going to answer their line of questioning when they’re trying to figure out what happened in this novel situation?  I honestly think you’ll get a better treatment plan from them if you come clean.

I wouldn't want to come clean, but by that time it'll be obvious to them what's been done to him, when they look at his scarred up resected urinary tract. If he doesn't come clean they'll probably recommend suing the surgeon who did this to him.

I imagine they'll probably dig pretty deep, as none of this makes sense. As you said, a man in his 30s getting all his LUTS control removed for minor symptoms is unheard of. A man with years of attempted treatment makes a lot more sense. Treatment pathway is behavioral/therapy, various medications, then minor surgeries (maybe just a turp). What this surgeon is doing is reserved for repeat surgery patients with lots of blockage, spinal cord patients who have detrustor issues, or elderly men who are being diapered for the rest of their days. 

But at the same time, reddy will likely need to see a urologist after this, so he needs that referral. He could get infected, blocked etc as a result of the surgery, and both can be life threatening. So he'll have to handle it somehow.

 

[Reddy]

18 minutes ago, jeremy12312 said:

Luckily we’re going to find out which one of us is right soon enough, but also luckily only one of us has to live with the results. 

I disagreed about you saying I was the first person to get an initial consult about a prior procedure.  I don't think anything is going to happen that will change things to make one of us right or wrong about that as you are implying here.

The other thing - me getting what I want - we agreed about.

I don't know why you're being smug about it.

I think a lot of you are confused about basic things.  I want to be incontinent.  I don't want to pee myself on purpose.  I desire to be forced into it... AKA It is an incontinence desire.  I'm pursing an option for getting that.  When it is suggested that I don't pursue it, or that I just wear diapers for no reason without being incontinent, it's not going to get me what I want.  A lot of you are confusing incontinence with pretending to be incontinent, so you're suggesting things that don't make sense, and trying to derail the thing that does make sense.

I'm also a lot nicer than some of you rude people on your high horses, saying sticking tubes up your dick or atrophying a working muscle is so much better than having a procedure with an experienced surgeon, coming in here implying that I'm an idiot and looking forward to being somehow proven right.  You're immature and your arguments are arbitrary.  Come off it.

15 minutes ago, superabsorbantpolymer said:

I wouldn't want to come clean, but by that time it'll be obvious to them what's been done to him, when they look at his scarred up resected urinary tract. If he doesn't come clean they'll probably recommend suing the surgeon who did this to him.

I imagine they'll probably dig pretty deep, as none of this makes sense. As you said, a man in his 30s getting all his LUTS control removed for minor symptoms is unheard of. A man with years of attempted treatment makes a lot more sense. Treatment pathway is behavioral/therapy, various medications, then minor surgeries (maybe just a turp). What this surgeon is doing is reserved for repeat surgery patients with lots of blockage, spinal cord patients who have detrustor issues, or elderly men who are being diapered for the rest of their days. 

But at the same time, reddy will likely need to see a urologist after this, so he needs that referral. He could get infected, blocked etc as a result of the surgery, and both can be life threatening. So he'll have to handle it somehow.

 

It's not going to be obvious.  They won't be trying to figure anything out.  You guys are making out doctors to be more suspicious than they are.  Doctors really don't have time to bring up questions that I didn't ask.  They are going to know I went in for a TUIBN/TURBN at a different urologist and that's that.  My primary doctor already knows that is on the table.  Maybe they will feel that it was rushed, and it will be obvious that I'm coming to them because I'm not having a normal outcome.  I think they'll just assume the surgeon made an error and nicked my sphincter and made me incontinent.

You shouldn't call me scarred up.  There's nothing to indicate I'll be more scarred than anyone else who has a procedure done.

And no, it doesn't make any less sense that I don't have years of attempted treatment.  It's pretty common actually for someone to hide their symptoms because they are too embarrassed to talk to their doctor.  For a long time.

[padded-nightly]

4 minutes ago, Reddy said:

I don't know why you're being smug about it.

People here seem to be falling into one of two categories.

A) people who are already incontinent and don't want to be, so, obviously that makes your choice a horrible one. I do understand *some* of the frustration from these people, you're fantasizing about a medical condition that they hate.

B ) people who merely want to fantasize about being incontinent and don't actually want it. These people, at least the ones in the thread here, are very self aware and reasonable.

B 2) people who profess to want this but are too afraid to actually take action on it. Therefore, in their frame of mine, your actions must be unreasonable and obviously wrong because if there aren't some obvious reason why what you're doing is a bad idea, why aren't they also doing it? Equal parts jealousy and anger at themselves.

[FretaBWet]

1 hour ago, Reddy said:

I disagree, because I think it's very normal to get an initial consult after the surgery.  It's two different doctors.  One performs the surgery, and then the other one I have the initial consult afterwards.

I think you might be wise to look up the word "initial" in a dictionary. In a medical context it means "before" having a procedure not after. Your doctor gave you the referral for a second opinion to confirm that the urologist is suggesting the proper procedure before you have it done. When you come in for your 2nd opinion there's nothing for them to have an opinion on so they are unlikely to do anything other then send you on your way and mail you a bill. Also this will leave it on your medical record that you had an appointment for a second opinion and had the surgery without waiting for it. Contrary to what you may believe, I am not trying to talk you out of having surgery. It's your body and your life and you will be the one to suffer the consequences. I just wanted you to see this is a complicated path you're on and there are things you may not have considered.

Hugs,

Freta

[Reddy]

1 minute ago, FretaBWet said:

I think you might be wise to look up the word "initial" in a dictionary. In a medical context it means "before" having a procedure not after. Your doctor gave you the referral for a second opinion to confirm that the urologist is suggesting the proper procedure before you have it done. When you come in for your 2nd opinion there's nothing for them to have an opinion on so they are unlikely to do anything other then send you on your way and mail you a bill. Also this will leave it on your medical record that you had an appointment for a second opinion and had the surgery without waiting for it. Contrary to what you may believe, I am not trying to talk you out of having surgery. It's your body and your life and you will be the one to suffer the consequences. I just wanted you to see this is a complicated path you're on and there are things you may not have considered.

Hugs,

Freta

No, it's the initial consult with that doctor.  Meaning the first time you see that doctor.  Years pass, people have surgery, and then they see new doctors when they want a new perspective or they aren't happy with a previous doctor.

I'm skipping the 2nd opinion because my surgeon is pushing me into surgery, then having the 2nd opinion later when I have 2nd thoughts.  It makes a lot of sense.

[DAQ]

11 minutes ago, padded-nightly said:

People here seem to be falling into one of two categories.

A) people who are already incontinent and don't want to be, so, obviously that makes your choice a horrible one. I do understand *some* of the frustration from these people, you're fantasizing about a medical condition that they hate.

B ) people who merely want to fantasize about being incontinent and don't actually want it. These people, at least the ones in the thread here, are very self aware and reasonable.

B 2) people who profess to want this but are too afraid to actually take action on it. Therefore, in their frame of mine, your actions must be unreasonable and obviously wrong because if there aren't some obvious reason why what you're doing is a bad idea, why aren't they also doing it? Equal parts jealousy and anger at themselves.

I think we have a winner!! A bunch of incontinent people on the Incontinent DESIRES forum screaming that no one could POSSIBLY want this. I imagine the same thing would happen if someone who needed diapers medically at all came across ABDLs and find it horrifying that anyone would willingly or want to wear diapers.

 

Also, as a side note to everyone saying that you should live it first. It is impossible to pretend to be incontinent. I have worn diapers 24/7 for 4 years. And wearing vs using are two different things and until you have NO choice you won't know what you don't know. And if one untrains and you start to have legitimate accidents and 2nd thoughts it may already be too late to back out. 

[jeremy12312]

I’m also not against you having the surgery, not that it matters what an internet stranger thinks about your actions in the first place. 

But your reasonings to make this seem, to the rest of the world, organic and natural are not as water-tight as you think they are.  You are caught up in the desire so much that of course your story makes sense in your head. Humans are funny about being able to justify anything they really want to do, in their own head.

But to an outsider who has no vested interest either way, it stinks. 

[DAQ]

7 minutes ago, jeremy12312 said:

I’m also not against you having the surgery, not that it matters what an internet stranger thinks about your actions in the first place. 

But your reasonings to make this seem, to the rest of the world, organic and natural are not as water-tight as you think they are.  You are caught up in the desire so much that of course your story makes sense in your head. Humans are funny about being able to justify anything they really want to do, in their own head.

But to an outsider who has no vested interest either way, it stinks. 

There is no reasoning this. It is not logical. And the more I learn and understand about human psyche the more I am convinced that logic doesn't exist.

And I am saying that as someone who is a hairsbreath from following him down there.

[jeremy12312]

By all means go for it. I’m not saying the desire is wrong. But the version of events he plans on telling people regarding how it came about doesn’t make any sense at all. 

[Reddy]

An update for today...

15 days left until my flight down to Guadalajara.  I keep picturing how beautiful it will be.  I am staying in the Holiday Inn Select Guadalajara.  I moved my hotel around a few times but I settled on this one last week.  It's only a couple minutes from the CHG Hospitales.

I made my packing list.  It's nice to have something to do in relation to my upcoming surgery.  I was so busy the other week getting my passport, getting my bloodwork, getting my flight, hotel, and deposit squared away, but I do still have packing yet to do.  I made a list of what to pack and what to buy at Walmart once I get there.  I'm going to pack boxers so I can wear those when I have the catheter in.  I will only need diapers for a few of the days.  I am going to buy diapers and water and food at walmart.  And probably some clothes.  I will pack enough diapers for the travel back home from Guadalajara.

I noticed something about waiting for time to pass.  I realized that for me time passes in weeks.  On Tuesday it felt like there were three weeks left until my surgery, by Thursday it feels like only two weeks left.  Because we were already getting to the weekend.  So the number of days don't translate to anything tangible in my mind but getting through a number of weeks is very easy for me to understand.  Two weeks left!  I am so excited 😊😁🤩

 

 

5 hours ago, mirrored said:

I'm hoping you can see what I am getting at with all of this. You may be setting yourself up for failure, going through a lot of effort and spending a lot of money only to still not meet that criteria in your head. That is a likely outcome because if you  don't meet that criteria now, even after having accidents and suboptimal continence as it stands, your brain will find a way to justify why you don't need them in the future too. Because all of this, as any 24/7 guide will tell you, is a mental game. 

You can continue down this journey and be optimistic that you'll get what you want, sure. Or you can change your criteria for "needing diapers" to align more to how adult diapers are used in the real world. This standard is one which you already qualify for from my perspective based on what you've described. (Though If any others have read what he said about it, I'd love to hear their opinion!) The idea you have about incontinence and "needing diapers" seems to be based on a fantasy. I know in my case I had a similarly unrealistic and high criteria regarding what qualifies for needing diapers and being incontinent until just last year, but in retrospect, that high criteria was a result of me being in denial at just how bad and disruptive my own dysfunction really was and the feelings of shame and guilt that comes with it. Yours is probably different. 

Since you already have issues with incontinence and bladder dysfunction, there is likely a reason for it too that you do not know. You are taking a big risk by not getting those looked at properly before having this surgery as incontinence is always a symptom of a larger problem. Those larger problems can range from common ones like BPH, Internal Cystitis, overactive bladder, or obstructions (like I have) to more severe and alarming things like diabetes, kidney failure, or even prostate cancer. By getting the surgery, you may wind up masking and hiding the real cause from any doctor who could possibly help you. Do you think these guys in Mexico will tell you if they find any kind of growth while they are working on you? No, they're just going to collect a paycheck and send you on your way. 

Just final thoughts on this I wanted to share as I don't want to badger you with this. Good luck with all this. 

Thanks, I do appreciate all your input.  Good points.  You made me think of incontinence as much more of a scale of characteristics within the umbrella of incontinence than an arbitrary level to achieve.  And thank you for the good luck wishes.

[Reddy]

2 hours ago, Reddy said:

An update for today...

15 days left until my flight down to Guadalajara.  I keep picturing how beautiful it will be.  I am staying in the Holiday Inn Select Guadalajara.  I moved my hotel around a few times but I settled on this one last week.  It's only a couple minutes from the CHG Hospitales.

I made my packing list.  It's nice to have something to do in relation to my upcoming surgery.  I was so busy the other week getting my passport, getting my bloodwork, getting my flight, hotel, and deposit squared away, but I do still have packing yet to do.  I made a list of what to pack and what to buy at Walmart once I get there.  I'm going to pack boxers so I can wear those when I have the catheter in.  I will only need diapers for a few of the days.  I am going to buy diapers and water and food at walmart.  And probably some clothes.  I will pack enough diapers for the travel back home from Guadalajara.

I noticed something about waiting for time to pass.  I realized that for me time passes in weeks.  On Tuesday it felt like there were three weeks left until my surgery, by Thursday it feels like only two weeks left.  Because we were already getting to the weekend.  So the number of days don't translate to anything tangible in my mind but getting through a number of weeks is very easy for me to understand.  Two weeks left!  I am so excited 😊😁🤩

 

 

Thanks, I do appreciate all your input.  Good points.  You made me think of incontinence as much more of a scale of characteristics within the umbrella of incontinence than an arbitrary level to achieve.  And thank you for the good luck wishes.

Here is my list of what to buy in Mexico vs pack from home.  I think I thought of everything at this point.

 

Buy in Guadalajara:

Gallons of Water

Food

Protein bars

High fiber foods

Snacks

Diapers

Baby powder

Desitin

Laundry detergent

Febreze

Hydrogen peroxide

Tshirts

Sweatshirt

Basketball Shorts

Cotton shorts

Swimsuit

White socks

Sunscreen

Souvenirs

 

 

Pack from Home:

Sweatpants

Shorts

Another Tshirt

Toiletry bag

Prescriptions

Acetaminophen

Ibuprofen

Naproxen

Aspirin

Vitamins

Good diapers (At least 10)

Booster pads (pack of 20)

Swim diapers (half a dozen)

Boxers

White socks

Phone charger x2

Fitbit charger

Glasses

Sunglasses

[superabsorbantpolymer]

37 minutes ago, Reddy said:

Souvenirs

"I left my sphincter in Guadalajara but I got these cool key chains" 😂

37 minutes ago, Reddy said:

Aspirin

Ask your doctor but I'm pretty sure you should avoid aspirin before/after surgery as it's a blood thinner (prevents clotting, which you need to heal). 

37 minutes ago, Reddy said:

Good diapers (At least 10)

Booster pads (pack of 20)

Always over pack on diapers is my mantra, 10 doesn't sound like a whole lot but I guess you'll be catheterized.

37 minutes ago, Reddy said:

Swim diapers (half a dozen)

What's the purpose of swim diapers in your case? Aren't they for 💩?

37 minutes ago, Reddy said:

 

7 hours ago, Reddy said:

It's not going to be obvious.  They won't be trying to figure anything out.  You guys are making out doctors to be more suspicious than they are.  Doctors really don't have time to bring up questions that I didn't ask.  They are going to know I went in for a TUIBN/TURBN at a different urologist and that's that.  My primary doctor already knows that is on the table.  Maybe they will feel that it was rushed, and it will be obvious that I'm coming to them because I'm not having a normal outcome.  I think they'll just assume the surgeon made an error and nicked my sphincter and made me incontinent.

You shouldn't call me scarred up.  There's nothing to indicate I'll be more scarred than anyone else who has a procedure done.

And no, it doesn't make any less sense that I don't have years of attempted treatment.  It's pretty common actually for someone to hide their symptoms because they are too embarrassed to talk to their doctor.  For a long time.

If a urologist looks up your urethra with a cystoscope post surgery they're going to see scarring where your sphincter, prostatic urethra etc should be. They know their way around a urethra, and will be able to see that the sphincter was not just nicked but actually scraped/cut out deliberately. It will be inconsistent with your story, and if they are proactive they will have questions. But of course at the end of the day they will treat you as you are and it's not such a big deal. I just think you need to think about what you tell them, cause they are experts and will think either your surgeon fucked up and lied to you or you're not telling the whole truth. 

 

[longislandguy]

I must say, as a gay man, that picture gives me all types of feels. 

[Reddy]

40 minutes ago, longislandguy said:

I must say, as a gay man, that picture gives me all types of feels. 

This picture?  The countdown to Guadalajara picture?

[oznl]

1 hour ago, Reddy said:

Here is my list of what to buy in Mexico vs pack from home.  I think I thought of everything at this point.

 

Buy in Guadalajara:

Gallons of Water

Food

Protein bars

High fiber foods

Snacks

Diapers

Baby powder

Desitin

Laundry detergent

Febreze

Hydrogen peroxide

Tshirts

Sweatshirt

Basketball Shorts

Cotton shorts

Swimsuit

White socks

Sunscreen

Souvenirs

 

 

Pack from Home:

Sweatpants

Shorts

Another Tshirt

Toiletry bag

Prescriptions

Acetaminophen

Ibuprofen

Naproxen

Aspirin

Vitamins

Good diapers (At least 10)

Booster pads (pack of 20)

Swim diapers (half a dozen)

Boxers

White socks

Phone charger x2

Fitbit charger

Glasses

Sunglasses

I’ve said it before but I’ll repeat it in case it’s gotten lost in the noise.  I’d seriously suggest one or two pairs of absorbent-lined plastic pants for use in bed, at least whilst you’ve got your diaper “Learner” plates on.  I use the Kins double-terry waterproof pants in bed if in disposables.

I learned that genuine bedwetting really did push the envelope with respect to my adult disposable nappies.  Not so much with respect to their absorption capacity but more about peeing whilst laying the wrong way and being unaware of what’s happening until it’s too late because I was asleep.

In a hotel bed, that could be pretty embarrassing.   Maybe trade-out the swim diapers?  I’m not sure what they’re going to do for you.

A pair of PUL waterproofs might also be good for daytime use until you’ve learned how much diaper you need and where running in “incontinence” mode.  They won’t stop leaking but may delay it until you can take corrective action. 

[superabsorbantpolymer]

Also disposable under pads for beds/chairs (aka Chucks) for leaks.

[Reddy]

Ok the bed pads and lined plastic pants both sound smart.  Yeap I can probably skip the swim diapers.  Thanks!

[longislandguy]

1 hour ago, Reddy said:

This picture?  The countdown to Guadalajara picture?

 

 

why yes....the full color one makes my diaper swell.....

[ValentinesStuff]

On 1/25/2024 at 5:04 AM, cathdiap said:

I am actually really glad Reddy started this topic. For me it is very clear now what End Stage Incontinence Desires exactly looks like. After the surgery there would be nothing left for me to wish for or fantasise about, so my last sexual drive would be gone forever.

I am afraid of loving women and I am scared of loving men, I only have sexual desires with diapers. Yes I know I am a complete failure regarding sexuality, but hey, that's what I have to deal with for the rest of my life. Meaning I have to keep the fantasy of incontinence alive; Irreversible incontinence after surgery would leave me completely asexual. No thanks!

Also I don't want my parents, siblings, children and grandchildren to think of me as that disabled dude that needs to wear diapers. 

 

Asexuality has nothing to do with the ability to perform sexually. It has to do with whom you are sexually attracted. Heterosexuals are attracted members of the opposite sex, homosexuals are attracted to members of the same sex, bisexuals are attracted to members of both sexes, and asexuals are not attracted to members of either sex.* Some asexuals, have no deisre to have sexual relations, some will with a romantic partner to keep them happy, some will just for the exercise. 

 

* Yes there are sexualities, nut I'd never end typing. Also there is variations of all those, as some asexuals are attracted to a single person, or even a limited group of people.