Afganistan

[spoonchicken]

So, Americas longest war is drawing to a close. Since we discourage talking politics in the ChatRoom, I wondered if we could talk about it here. All I ask is that folks don't get petty, vindictive, or preachy about it. If this becomes a problem, I'll just delete the thread. 

[~*PrincessZozo*~]

I was 11 when the war started. I'm turning 32 in a few months. Twenty one years. All of that work was undone in days.

 

A waste of a trillion dollars and thousands of lives.

[DailyDi]

We can't be there forever. We trained and equipped their troops, and they laid down their arms at the first confrontation. Up to them to stand up.

[AbabeBill]

Nothing new here. We (the US) get dragged into a war, no one wants, and have to hang our sons, daughters, mom’s dads, some of our best out. Only to pick up all our shit, (well, almost all of it) and go home, without resolving anything, and leaving yet another fight to fester, and be fought again later. WASTE , WASTE , WASTE ! Of the very worst kind, lives! Oh, and what a great reputation the US is fostering. 
Makes me sick! “We are doomed to repeat history”. ?

[Wet Knight]

There were too many unknown unknowns, to make rational decisions about how to get involved.

[Joep]

I have a minority opinion on this topic. 
my position is that the United States involvement should end when Afghanistan becomes an independent, democratic government which is capable of defending itself.

I find it unjust that the US military evacuated so abruptly. This has left our allies with larger targets on their backs: mainly India and Israel. China and Russia are racing to fill the power vacuum which could allow either country to secure a trillion dollars in rare earth metals and in china’s case, expand to belt and road initiative to Kabul. Afghan women will now be forced to serve under sharia law which excludes them from having basic human rights, an inability to access literature or a basic education, and an excluded right to divorce their husbands. 
 

In under a week, the United States has given up the fight for peace, justice, and democracy. I’m deeply saddened and mourn the world for what will become of it. I merely want to offer my perspective, not debate until my face turns red.
 

[DailyDi]

6 minutes ago, Joep said:

I have a minority opinion on this topic. 
my position is that the United States involvement should end when Afghanistan becomes an independent, democratic government which is capable of defending itself.

I find it unjust that the US military evacuated so abruptly. This has left our allies with larger targets on their backs: mainly India and Israel. China and Russia are racing to fill the power vacuum which could allow either country to secure a trillion dollars in rare earth metals and in china’s case, expand to belt and road initiative to Kabul. Afghan women will now be forced to serve under sharia law which excludes them from having basic human rights, an inability to access literature or a basic education, and an excluded right to divorce their husbands. 
 

In under a week, the United States has given up the fight for peace, justice, and democracy. I’m deeply saddened and mourn the world for what will become of it. I merely want to offer my perspective, not debate until my face turns red.
 

I see your point, but the people there don't want an American-style democracy, so they don't fight for it.

[AwakenEvil]

Some of the videos today have been nutty! Seeing people fall off airplanes mid-flight. Crazy! We spent how many billions of dollars and lives\limbs lost for nothing. Both political parties did this, and the question you should wonder for those that lost something or someone... Was it worth it?

[Wet Knight]

The instigators got far too hung up on Democracy;  around 80% of the world's population live under some form of Dictatorship from which it can not vote its self free.

 

[spoonchicken]

28 minutes ago, AbabeBill said:

Nothing new here. We (the US) get dragged into a war, no one wants, and have to hang our sons, daughters, mom’s dads, some of our best out. Only to pick up all our shit, (well, almost all of it) and go home, without resolving anything, and leaving yet another fight to fester, and be fought again later. WAST, WAIST, WAIST! Of the very worst kind, lives! Oh, and what a great reputation the US is fostering. 
Makes me sick! “We are doomed to repeat history”. ?

waste * ( sorry; couldn't resist )

[Wheels]

4 minutes ago, DailyDi said:

I see your point, but the people there don't want an American-style democracy, so they don't fight for it.

I think a major problem is that they really only have one generation born into freedom that are just now becoming adults. However, the families that raised them did not grow up in the same level of freedom. To really have been effective with our presence, we need to stay there for another generation of people to be born into freedom and raised by the current young people who have been growing up with that initial taste of it.

Politicians are giving us statements to the effect of "even if we stayed another one, two, or five years, it would not of made a difference." That's true. The reality is we will have needed to stay another 20 to 25 years if we committed to what we started. 

[AwakenEvil]

9 minutes ago, Wheels said:

I think a major problem is that they really only have one generation born into freedom that are just now becoming adults.

Reporters today reported that woman prior to this mass exodus weren't wearing the headscarf, Burka, and wearing more colors and showing hair, and other feminine features in their clothes. Today they said its like it was 20 years ago... I am not sure if any progress was made... Seems like they prefer this life to one of freedom.

[Newbee]

You cannot help someone who doesn’t want help. The Afghans were given the tools and nohow to help themselves so ultimately it was up to them to fight for their freedoms.

[Wheels]

I think a higher percentage of our citizens that are born into freedom among those who have also been experiencing freedom or more likely to pick up a weapon fight to keep their way of life because it is something that we feel is an inalienable right to us. Picture for a moment the truck opens up in your neighborhood and 25 Taliban jump out of a truck with machine guns threatening to kill anyone that pushes back against them, and women that are going to school or aren't wearing a burka risk being brutalized. It's easier for us to say we would be willing to give our a life to preserve our right to freedom and mobilize before our military or law enforcement showed up, but people that didn't grow up with freedom or be raised by people that had it might be driven by fear of the reality they remember of the brutality they had seen in years past. If the US presence (or comparable ally) stayed another 20 years, then you're going to have more Afghan citizens that are willing to fight.

[Elfy]

The whole thing is really reminiscent of Vietnam.

I'm not saying the decision to go to war was wrong or in any way possible to avoid at the time but I think there should've been more clarity in what it would actually take to "win." In many ways it was a war without a win condition. For all the time and money poured into Afghanistan it would've taken a hell of a lot more to leave it in a stable condition.

I don't think it's fair to blame the Afghan people. It's obviously a tremendously complex situation but most of them do not want the Taliban in control, that seems like it would be fair to say. However, it seems like the corruption was out of control and I wonder just how much money that was sent Afghanistan's way actually ended up helping the people.

Either way I feel bad for the people who are going to suffer tremendously. Women especially will suffer badly, a return to the Taliban will mean no more education for them, no more freedoms, arranged marriages and sexual assaults. A very sad situation all round.

[DailyDi]

3 minutes ago, Wheels said:

I think a higher percentage of our citizens that are born into freedom among those who have also been experiencing freedom or more likely to pick up a weapon fight to keep their way of life because it is something that we feel is an inalienable right to us. Picture for a moment the truck opens up in your neighborhood and 25 Taliban jump out of a truck with machine guns threatening to kill anyone that pushes back against them, and women that are going to school or aren't wearing a burka risk being brutalized. It's easier for us to say we would be willing to give our a life to preserve our right to freedom and mobilize before our military or law enforcement showed up, but people that didn't grow up with freedom or be raised by people that had it might be driven by fear of the reality they remember of the brutality they had seen in years past. If the US presence (or comparable ally) stayed another 20 years, then you're going to have more Afghan citizens that are willing to fight.

That's probably true, but how Many Americans would lose their life fighting the fight for them for another generation. Its a big ask when every time we turn around they are chanting death to America in the streets. Its a sad situation that there's really no good answer to.

My biggest concern is that the "leaders" in Afghanistan refused to extend the protections for our military when President Trump was negotiating. (That's not a dig, the agreement was to leave this year.)  I don't want to see American soldiers on trial in corrupt courts for trying to do a tough job.

[Wheels]

3 minutes ago, DailyDi said:

That's probably true, but how Many Americans would lose their life fighting the fight for them for another generation. Its a big ask when every time we turn around they are chanting death to America in the streets. Its a sad situation that there's really no good answer to.

I agree that's a tough pill to swallow when contemplating all of this. The primary reason I might support continued presence there for that length of time, aside from the humanitarian aspect, is the reality that not doing so now allows a hotbed of future terrorism development, and possibly a generation that becomes radicalized in anger that we left them high and dry to submit to the Taliban. I hate to think of another 9/11 years from now because of all this.

[Glennie]

my biggest issue is why did we leave all those guns and resources there for the talibans to use.. we should have destroyed  anything we left there so it doesn't end up being used against as we go back to removed americans and the people we worked with over there.. thats the normal thing that happens when you leaver resources behind.. you destroy them..

[Elfy]

It seems like American M4's are going to be this generations AK-47. From what I've heard there are so many weapons left behind they'll probably flood the black market for these groups.

[WetDad]

My cynical predictions:

The Taliban will sell lots of weapons to Colombian & Mexican drug cartels.

Those who fought against women's rights in America are now fighting for women's rights in Afghanistan.

We will do this again in another 10 years. Some other country, for another seemingly worthwhile cause, but the result will be the same.

[Dubious]

From what I've read, Biden fucked it up.

Obama started pulling out troops, and Trump continued with that, but the plan was to keep a small force down there to secure Kabul etc, but Biden pulled out all troops, before people had time to evacuate, so now USA has sent down more troops again to secure the airport.

and now there is talk about a possible distance war... with drones and rockets.

[AwakenEvil]

Probably should have removed the group of people without firearms first and the military last like many of the Generals suggested.

[DailyDi]

1 hour ago, AwakenEvil said:

Probably should have removed the group of people without firearms first and the military last like many of the Generals suggested.

Would have made more sense for sure.

[AwakenEvil]

6 minutes ago, DailyDi said:

Would have made more sense for sure.

Sadly I am now reading reports of a lot of civilians that are stranded... and the advice we are going them... just barricade yourself inside and don't leave for any reason... seriously hope these are not actually real...

[Pamperbum_uk]

1: biden only did what has voters wanted him to.

2: how did the Afghans fold so easily, when they had an airforce. I can only assume they were full of Taliban sympethizers....