I told my doctor about incontinent desires, diapers, and I asked her for help to get surgery.

[Ferix]

6 hours ago, Spicey Lettuce said:

If you convince her that you are a danger to yourself, you may end up involuntarily incarcerated in a mental hospital.  Be careful.

I have worked for 5 years at the ITA court where they order patients to be to be treated involuntarily so I know that the threshold for involuntary treatment in a hospital is high. They would need to show I am at risk of causing serious harm to myself, others, or that I'm gravely disabled due to a cognitive or organic impairment (like psychosis or dementia).

 

It would be hard for them to argue that I pose a high enough risk over catheter and stent use, especially if I explain that I have 10 years of experience using them and have learned to self treat any UTIs. The usual involuntary commitment for self harm is given to those with problems including: suicidal ideations, self cutting, swallowing razor blades, and things that pose a high risk of serious harm or death.

 

I'm not saying it wouldn't happen but it is extremely unlikely. It would be interesting for sure if I did get involuntarily committed because I know a lot of people at court that I'm on good terms with. For example: The judge invited me to her house for a Christmas party one year, the deputy prosecutor (second to the judge) wrote me a letter of recommendation for a job, the lawyers would regularly buy me lunch, and the court psychiatrist threw a pizza party for me just before I left. It would be like an awkward work reunion.

[Spicey Lettuce]

If you repeatedly end up in the ER with a terrible bladder infection from playing with homemade stents and such, you could very well be locked up for harming yourself.   The docs will humor you and charge for their services for a bit, but if you become a nuisance with self injuries I think it's more likely that you will get put in a hospital then you getting the surgery.

Either way, Id love if you'd keep writing about your experiences.  I have to say I'm quite entertained reading your exploits!

[Ferix]

2 hours ago, Spicey Lettuce said:

If you repeatedly end up in the ER with a terrible bladder infection from playing with homemade stents and such, you could very well be locked up for harming yourself.   The docs will humor you and charge for their services for a bit, but if you become a nuisance with self injuries I think it's more likely that you will get put in a hospital then you getting the surgery.

Either way, Id love if you'd keep writing about your experiences.  I have to say I'm quite entertained reading your exploits!

I have my own supply of antibiotics to self treat my UTIs. I haven't seen a doc about UTIs in years.

 

I doubt you know more about the circumstances of the situation than me so your speculations of doom seems a bit off base. Please continue to enjoy my "exploits" respectfully.

 

Let's allow the time for real doctors figure out what the best treatment for me is.

[DAQ]

Not trying to convince you otherwise but would you consider a temporary solution?

If without the Psychiatrist they offered Botox to both sphincters or something like that? I was thinking about your post over the last week and this seems like a much better option personally as it require no invasive incisions and recovery risks. Although I must admit that I am arguing from ignorance as I have no context for what the risks associated with Botox might be.

[Ferix]

1 hour ago, DAQ said:

Not trying to convince you otherwise but would you consider a temporary solution?

If without the Psychiatrist they offered Botox to both sphincters or something like that? I was thinking about your post over the last week and this seems like a much better option personally as it require no invasive incisions and recovery risks. Although I must admit that I am arguing from ignorance as I have no context for what the risks associated with Botox might be.

I would do botox if surgery is not an option. I did ask my psychiatrist about that and I spoke of that in a previous post. She would not endorse it. Even with a willing urologist, it would likely still require an endorsement from a psychiatrist.

 

Botox is a second choice as it's not a guarantee it would work to make me permanently incontinent.

 

Does everyone not want to wait and see what actual doctors say? Ask yourself before posting: has Ferix obtained a urologist--and--a psychiatrist? If the answer is no and this is not something you have done yourself, then your medical advice does not apply.

 

From now on I'm going to stop responding to any medical suggestions until I actually have a urologist and psychiatrist.

[DAQ]

55 minutes ago, Ferix said:

I would do botox if surgery is not an option. I did ask my psychiatrist about that and I spoke of that in a previous post. She would not endorse it. Even with a willing urologist, it would likely still require an endorsement from a psychiatrist.

 

Botox is a second choice as it's not a guarantee it would work to make me permanently incontinent

I apologize. I must have missed that post. I had not intended for my question to be a medical suggestion or an alternative. I was more curious what doctors felt about temporary solutions. In an edit that I guess I didn't post I lament that you are probably 3 or 4 years further in your journey than I am. I have been wearing 24/7 for the last 13 months with virtually no progress.

 

[Ferix]

Just a quick update: I have scheduled an appointment with a new psychiatrist on May 4th (Star Wars Day). Also, today I called up the urologist that can do the surgery. They are still reviewing my referral so it may be another couple days still before they accept it and I can schedule an appointment.

[oznl]

I do wonder here how much practitioner mind-set is around dealing with the dysphoria as opposed to making you “normal” (in their eyes) again.

This must be something like what trans-folk would routinely have had to endure decades ago.

Good luck.  Keep us posted!

[Cute_Kitten]

15 hours ago, oznl said:

I do wonder here how much practitioner mind-set is around dealing with the dysphoria as opposed to making you “normal” (in their eyes) again.

This must be something like what trans-folk would routinely have had to endure decades ago.

Good luck.  Keep us posted!

Now that got me thinking. Would doctors who specialize in or have a lot of LGBT+ patients perhaps be more open to "outside of the norm" or "out of the box" type thinking in situations like this, of patients seeking incontinence?

[BaronBrook]

Congratulations on making more progress Ferix!

[Ferix]

I made an appointment with the urologist that can do the surgery. They are apparently very busy so the soonest I could schedule an appointment is on July 13th. They put me on a list to call if someone cancels, in which case I see the doctor sooner by taking their spot. Regardless, I'm fine with the wait: it gives me a lot of time to think about and practice what I'm going to say.

[olympus]

Good for you for sticking with the fight! Based on some of the shows I have seen about gender reassignment, they often require you to live as the gender you wish to become. It may help things along to compile the evidence that you have been living as a fully incontinent person for some time. Information like how many diapers you use and how long you go between changes. This may sound weird going to any future appointments with a wet diaper may reinforce how serious you are about this. Just my suggestions. Stay Strong!

[cathdiap]

@Ferix I think I would have gone the same route as you if it wasn’t for my home made stent. This device allowed me to simulate incontinence very closely for extended periods of times and learned me that irreversible incontinence wasn’t for me. It made me realize that my incontinence desire was just a sexual fantasy and not so much a conviction that I was born in the wrong (continent) body. In other words: Sexual fantasies come and go, a body integrity identity disorder stays.

I applaud you for your brave approach and wish you all the luck in your quest for permanent incontinence.

[Ferix]

I met with my psychiatrist for a second opinion today!

 

Quick recap: This is my second psychiatrist as I stopped working with my first psychiatrist because she was unwilling to endorse surgery under any circumstances.

 

She started off the visit by letting me know she knew this was a second opinion visit and she had spoken with the other psychiatrist about me. Apparently they work in the same building! She was cool about it though and wanted to hear what I had to say.

 

I told her about my desires to be incontinent and that I've been using diapers to cope. I explained that I believe this is BIID and that the feelings I have are similar to the dysphoria experienced by those who are transgendered.  I explain that these desires have been with me all my life and there hasn't been a month in my life where I haven't had access to and used diapers to cope.

 

I explained how the incontinence dysphoria is always with me and I'm constantly reminded of it, especially every time I need to pee--I'm even woken up a couple times a night every night because I have to pee and the dysphoria is there to keep me up.

 

I explained that with age, the desire to become incontinent has only become stronger. It's so strong that it has driven me to wear and use diapers 24/7 as though I'm incontinent for the past 4 years. On top of that, I have been doing exercises to try to weaken my muscles that are responsible for bladder control and disrupt my bladder function so that I lose bladder control. Those exercises, which have been unsuccessful, have mainly been reverse-kegels and performing the crede maneuver regularly (The crede maneuver requires you to press on your lower abdomen right over your bladder rythmically, like your doing CPR to your bladder, until your bladder contracts and you pee uncontrollably).

 

But that's not far enough. I've, for the past decade been using catheters and stents to simulate incontinence. I explained that my stents are home made and I have a decade of experience making them. My stents work like a medical device: The stent holds open the muscles that control the bladder in the same way that a catheter does. It's the reason I know surgery is what I want because the only times I've ever felt like my true self are when I've been truly incontinent with the use of a stent.

 

I explained that I know it is risky to use stents. I have suffered many UTIs from it and I'm not even sure how many; It's not every time I use it but maybe a few times a year for the past decade. I had my doctor treat the first 3 but I was getting worried how they were going to react if I got another and they knew how I was getting the infections. I found online that I could purchase antibiotics without a prescription for pets, even the same drug and dosage I got when my doctor treated my infections. So ever since then, I've been treating my own UTIs whenever I got them.

 

She asked why do I think I go back to them? Is it euphoria?

 

I said no, it's because I really need to feel like myself at all times. I can be successful with my stents and have worn them up to 10 days at a time, though, I usually take it out after a couple days with how uncomfortable they can get. I am trying to live my normal life with it in, even wearing it to my last job where I worked as an EMT doing CPR on patients or wearing it on vacations to Vegas or camping trips with family. My soul aches that I am not incontinent.

 

I strongly believe that these desires are apart of me, that no matter how much therapy and treatments I go through, I will always have these desires and I will always be trying to live like I am incontinent. We could go through years of therapy and I can still see myself turning to stents to make me feel whole because therapy will fall short.

 

I told her how I ended my interaction with the last psychiatrist because I was concerned that I would get tied up into a treatment plan that could take me down a path that doesn't consider surgery; I'd rather not spend any time working with them when I know that there may be other health care professionals that may be willing to help me get surgery. I told her that there are others like me, who have sought the help of a urologist to get surgery and told the truth about their incontinence desires, and after exploring therapy and treatments, actually got surgery to be incontinent (it's true but I'm not going to go into any further detail), so the possibility is out there.

 

I told her I regret how my last interaction with the psychiatrist went. I really felt like I didn't speak to her concerns that she must do no harm and that I may regret my decision later. I told her I really didn't explain to the first psychiatrist how big of a risk I take when I use stents: I thought deeply about it for a good week after the first appointment and it hit me hard to think that if I had told someone from my last job about the stents and pet antibiotics, they'd think I'm crazy. I was a bit shocked to think of seeing it from another perspective because so far, all I've been trying to do was be myself.

 

I told her I was afraid the risk could escalate: maybe I develop an infection resistant to antibiotics; or maybe I have develop an allergy to antibiotics.

 

She asked how does that make me feel.

 

I said I feel like I want to stop. Like I need help. But without surgery being an option and therapy not being enough help, I'm only going to continue to use stents because it's the only way I've been able to match my body image to reality.

 

I told her I've spoken to my doctor and urologist about my desires and they believe me and want to help. I explained that my urologist referred me to a surgeon that is capable of doing the surgery but that visit wont be for another couple months.

 

She said that she would not be able to tell the urologist to do the surgery, and that it would be up to him. She actually said this a few times. I reassured her that I understood that it will be up to me to pitch the case for surgery and to see if they are willing to help.

 

She was concerned that there may be some underlying issues causing these desires and that I really should go to therapy to at least explore the causes and see if there's anything treatable. She said medications might be an option but she didn't indicate that she thought I needed them nor did she prescribe any.

 

She agreed that I have a form of body dysmorphic disorder and if surgery was an option to treat it, then therapy would be the first step to take to get it. She says she's concerned about how surgery would be permanent and that it could cause me harm. But she says she wants me to continue to seek the help of a surgeon and after 6 to 12 months working with a therapist, we can re-evaluate my desires for the surgery and plan the next step if I can find a willing surgeon. To be clear, she did not explicitly say yes she would endorse surgery, but she did not say no either!

 

She said she formerly worked with patients who were getting transplants and it will be likely that the surgeon will have their own ethics review on the surgery and they may have me speak to their psychiatrists before surgery is an option.

 

She said she is going to refer me to a therapist. She says I may need to seek the help of an out of network therapist if I find that the in-network therapist is not willing to help.

 

That about wraps up the conversation! Aside from the first psychiatrist, it really feels like I'm taking the shortest path possible to surgery. It's wild.

 

This whole journey has been an emotional rollercoaster. It's taken a lot to be able to put into words what I live through. I feel good that I was able to get the help of the second psychiatrist, but like I had to show a side of my heart that's hard to see, and that seems to diminish the relief of getting help the help from a psychiatrist.

 

Next step is to wait for a phone call from the therapist to make an appointment. July 12th will be my first visit to the new urologist.

 

Fair warning: Please be respectful and keep your treatment ideas and opinions/judgements to yourself, I simply wont respond to them.

[ozziebee]

Id think, Ferix, that the 12 month thing is standard. To be able to get gender reassignment surgery, one must live a minimum 12 months in the target gender. At the end if that, a second paych confirming the initial diagnosis, and a trip to the surgeon. 

 

Good luck. Keep at it. Don’t be discouraged by seeing a therapist. They may be your best ally and confidant in all this. 

[musicaddict]

19 hours ago, ozziebee said:

Id think, Ferix, that the 12 month thing is standard. To be able to get gender reassignment surgery, one must live a minimum 12 months in the target gender. At the end if that, a second paych confirming the initial diagnosis, and a trip to the surgeon.

12 months IS pretty standard. A good psych is more flexible depending on age and, in my case, having previously been masc of center

 

But for something like this with basically no long therm studies, peer review, or even anecdotal evidence? Yeah 12 months is probably the most likely outcome

[Ferix]

I'm not too concerned whether it will take 6 or 12 months, or more, as long as progress is made. I've waited this long: no need to get impatient now. I'll be concerned if it's been 2 years with no real progress made.

 

I read the notes that my psychiatrist wrote after the appointment. It was interesting to see she's under the assumption I'm seeking to get surgery for both urine and bowel incontinence. I guess that makes sense when she kept repeating that I should find "surgeons", plural and not singular, willing to help with the surgery. I'm not going to seek bowel incontinence surgery but it's surprising it could be easier than I imagined it would be to get an endorsement.

[Diapered Dave]

So one urologist refers you to another  urologist, then the psychiatrist refers you to a therapist, and no one promises anything.... Damn, it looks like they see a money train that they can ride for a time, while stringing you along!!  I hope you eventually get the results you want!

It reminds me of when I went to the doc last year about my ever-increasing bedwetting... I ended up seeing two family docs, and three urologists, spending a couple thousand bucks on tests and scans, and in the end, no one could tell me why I'm bedwetting more.  Of course, I don't mind... I like diapers anyway!

[diaperuser]

1 hour ago, Ferix said:

I'm not too concerned whether it will take 6 or 12 months, or more, as long as progress is made. I've waited this long: no need to get impatient now. I'll be concerned if it's been 2 years with no real progress made.

 

I read the notes that my psychiatrist wrote after the appointment. It was interesting to see she's under the assumption I'm seeking to get surgery for both urine and bowel incontinence. I guess that makes sense when she kept repeating that I should find "surgeons", plural and not singular, willing to help with the surgery. I'm not going to seek bowel incontinence surgery but it's surprising it could be easier than I imagined it would be to get an endorsement.

If she has it noted. The surgeon is willing to do it. You might as well do bowel besides bladder. I know you said you don’t want it. If you’ve gone this far. Might as well get everything done and then you will be full dependent on diapers.

[austmo]

Hi Ferix.

Read your story from start to end, and I totally understand your desire. As  a stent user since 2010, I believe that the fulfillment an incontinent life gives us is so important to our mental health, that this can not be treated or reversed. Without my good working titan stent, I would definitely walked the same path. 

Wish you all the luck on your way to get help with your surgery and hopefully a good and successful incontinent life. 

Keep us updated on your progress.

 

[Ferix]

Quick update: my referral for therapy has been approved and I've scheduled an appointment. The soonest they can get me in is June 23rd.

 

I'm actually looking forward to therapy. The reason I'm going is that the psychiatrist wants to explore why I have these desires with a therapist to make sure I'm in a good head space before she would consider surgery as an option. I'm also interested to see if they can give me any insight into myself that I could not come up with on my own. It's a new experience for me and it will be interesting to see what happens when I have a professional helping me process my thoughts.

 

On a different note, I've been really having intense incontinence dysphoria for the past few weeks. Because of this, I have been unable to deny the draw to incontinence and I've increased the use of my stent. With the stent in I have absolutely no control over my urine and it's like my bladder has an open drain.

 

Last week I used the stent 2 separate occasions for just over a day each time. This week I had it in for 3 consecutive days. All times I had to stop because of discomfort, however, there were no UTIs.

 

Part of me feels like I could build up to wearing the stent full time. It really is the only time I feel like myself. However, the discomfort can be so distracting and get too much that it's not something I want to wear full time, even if I know I can manage through the worst parts. I want to do it again soon, I know I will. Probably this afternoon.

 

Even with my recent success with stent use and simulating incontinence, the amount of discomfort I face with using the stent is daunting. I'm hoping like crazy that I can get surgery. Not crazy in the literal sense but guess that's what the therapist will decide :p.

[Ferix]

This week I was not so lucky avoiding a UTI from using the stent. I really should just stop using it since I'm on the cusp of possibly getting surgery to become incontinent.

 

To my dismay, antibiotics did not work in treating this UTI, so I was off to the ER for something more potent. Driving up to the ER, I'm thinking about what I should say. I figured I'd tell them the absolute truth and see what happens.

 

When I get there, I check in with registration and tell them I'm there for a UTI. They have me fill up a cup for a urine sample and as soon as I come out of the bathroom the nurse was ready for me. I tell her that I know it's a UTI and I gave it to myself unintentionally after using my stent (I had to explain to her what that was).

 

She wanted to know how I got the antibiotics, so I explained that I got them online. Things obviously were concerning for her by her expression peeking over her face mask. So I explained a very brief version of my journey so far to get urinary incontinence surgery, how I wear diapers to cope and use stents to simulate incontinence and self treat UTIs with antibiotics I get online. She even said, "I see, you'll get the surgery so you don't have to have infections anymore." She was done and the interaction was super quick, like a couple minutes tops. Overall, she was nice and friendly and didn't have any indication that she was passing judgement. She sent me back out to the waiting room where I was almost immediately called back to my room in the ER.

 

The doctor came in and right away he seemed pretty cool. Good looking guy, probably around 40, positive and friendly. I was surprised to find that we spent most of the time not talking about the infection but me in general. He first thought that I was using the stent for sexual pleasure because he said he was gay and had some friends who were into sounding and other kinky stuff. I was like, "oh no" and told him that I believe I have a form of BIID, that my body image does not match reality, that all my life I've wanted to be incontinent and that I've turned to wearing diapers since I was a kid. I gave him the full story of my attempts to untrain as well as telling him about my business. He was really interested in what I was saying and I ended up showing him pictures of the stent and then pictures of the diapers I make and some including my husband wearing my cloth diapers.

 

He suggested I get a stainless steel stent as it would be easier to clean. I didn't bother asking him where he thinks I might get one since as I said, I'm probably done with stents. He recommended boiling it to sterilize and using surgilube, which I said I already do. But he also said that overall, he recommends that I not use it anymore.

 

He said he understands but doesn't understand. He was glad I was already speaking to my doctor about it and getting help with a psychiatrist and a therapist. He said he thinks I should pursue a non-surgical route and make therapy work. I explained that I felt like there's no amount of therapy that could take away my dysphoria. My incontinent desires are something that I've had all my life and I know that true incontinence is what I need because I've only ever felt like my true self when I had no control.

 

I likened the stent use to how transgender people take actions to live more closely to their body image such as cross dressing and tucking their genitals with duct tape. He added, "or how they will wrap their chest." I explained there's quite a few of us with these desires, some of us have even talked to our doctors about it and have gotten help. I explained that most of the scene isn't looking for incontinence, they are in it for the diapers.

 

He started talking about how he wasn't that into the kinky scene, only a little into leather. He said he had lots of friends who were into all sorts of things, like sounding, fisting, leather, bondage, pup play, piss and scat, and he even knew a straight guy who was into blood. It turns out we would go to the same bar when they had kink night before covid, so we were joking that maybe we'd see each other there when they start them up again.

 

Well, we finally got around to talking about the infection and he said he'll give me something a bit stronger that can handle a wider range of infections. That was that, I thanked him and as he was walking out he said the nurse would be in shortly with paperwork and the prescription.

 

I'm a bit ashamed that I had to go through that experience, but honestly, it was overall positive and I'm glad I told the truth. I almost felt like I made a friend with the doctor and maybe we shoulda exchanged info so we could hang out for drinks sometime. I definitely didn't get the vibe that he was gonna lock me up for being crazy, unless maybe it was with leather bondage gear.

 

What another crazy installment to my journey for incontinence.

 

 

[oznl]

15 minutes ago, Ferix said:

What another crazy installment to my journey for incontinence.

You're blazing a trail @Ferix  That's what you're doing.  There'd be quite a few of us (including me) who are watching you with a degree of awe.

[Ferix]

55 minutes ago, oznl said:

You're blazing a trail @Ferix  That's what you're doing.  There'd be quite a few of us (including me) who are watching you with a degree of awe.

You're right. That's been my intent all along. I'm just as amazed with how this is all progressing.

[toddwr250r]

Anxiously awaiting an update here, don't leave me hanging @Ferix