Why do some people insist it’s impossible to make yourself incontinent?

[PuraVidaDip]

56 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

You are welcome, however, there is a warning here, and on your other post 'Why do some people...'

If you wish to become diaper dependent, you have to revert to the behaviour of a pre toilet trained child :-

• voiding when you get the urge when ever and wherever you are in what ever you are wearing. A baby will wet / mess the wall / floor / bed / car etc if they are not in a diaper. They void at the whim of their body not caring who sees them and where they are.
• ignore the state of your diaper - it is no longer your care. If it is dry, it will become wet. It it is clean, it will become messy. If it is not on you and can leak, it will leak on whatever you are wearing

This is the behaviour that is expected of you - to void at your bodies whims - and what you have to do. This is a change in behaviour of your mind - and your mind not telling you of its need to void.

The other way, getting the sphincters to a state of relaxation will cause bladder and sphincters to die. If they die while open, this is a path for infection, UTIs and possible death. If they die while close, this means constant manual emptying of the bladder via a catheter... which can damage the urethra and introduce infection -  UTIs and possible death.

In my humble opinion, the best way is to forget ones toilet training. The 12 month diaper training program is a methodology that can work once the mindset is correct - ie one accepts that from now on and forever :-

• that they will be in a wet and/or messy diaper always (or being changed / bathed).
• diapers are their underwear, and when they attempt not to wear, they will be in wet and/or messy pants etc.
• leaks are part of life - as are your diapers.... and the clothes you wear fit over the diapers. If they don't, you can't wear them - or only wear them for 15-45 mins until you wet / mess in them. Nobody dresses a baby without first putting their diaper on. Otherwise, you they end up changing the babies clothes within that hour - and some of them go straight to the bin cause they are soiled so bad.

To keep the sphincters working, one should 'play with themselves' or have someone else do it on a regular basis. In both genders, it triggers the urinary sphincters to close tightly and then relax afterwards. For some people, the bladder contracts on organism. Muscles that are being used do not athrophy (die).

Ok so I was wondering about the link between masturbation and sphincter control. @babykeiffwould you expand on this. I’ve been reading this and your other post and it seems like you're saying “don’t relax.” I thought relaxing was the goal here.

What are you suggesting regarding the bladder, just void when full? Hold it until then? I thought the goal was go as much as possible and then to be constantly relaxed. 

[babykeiff]

1 hour ago, PuraVidaDip said:

Ok so I was wondering about the link between masturbation and sphincter control. @babykeiffwould you expand on this. I’ve been reading this and your other post and it seems like you're saying “don’t relax.” I thought relaxing was the goal here.

What are you suggesting regarding the bladder, just void when full? Hold it until then? I thought the goal was go as much as possible and then to be constantly relaxed. 

Masterbation release closes the internal bladder sphincter tighter and opens the external bladder sphincter. It also, due to nerve wiring, closes the anal sphincter tighter. Post codial, these sphincters revert to normal pressure and state. This excersises same, which keeps them functioning.

The 12 month diaper training program, similar to what I am suggesting is to void at the slightest urge. This urge is triggered by a filling bladder and the opening of the internal bladder sphincter. Ignoring the state of your diaper, the result of voiding does not become an issue. Since there is no effect to the cause (voiding), it is something that gets relegated to subcontious control, which reinforces the baby method of voiding, voiding at the bodies whims with no remorse. This removes the information of the state of ones diaper, and the needs of voiding from contious mind. This means NOT holding anything, not focusing on your bladder / bowel needs and when the urge comes, ignoring it and focusing on something else. IE convince your mind that the need to void is not information you need to address.

 

[babykeiff]

1 hour ago, BabyBoi91 said:

Lol, I don’t think I said anything in Latin.

i actually spoke up because you are saying things that are grossly incorrect and/or harmful.  Which is how I knew you weren’t in the medical field. No person in the medical field in their right mind would spew lies like you do. 

“30+ experience on you” means nothing.     
 

As an ABDL myself, I actually deeply care about and respect the community here and that’s why I spoke up. People deserve a chance to know they’re being sold snake oil. 
 

Have a good day. 
 

 

 

...Which is how I knew you weren’t in the medical field... Others here know who I am, and  I may not follow the convention that you are being thought, but I learnt years ago that arragonce and self superiority does not mean one is better that another in their choosen field.

... things that are grossly incorrect .... that is based on the premise that you have both the knowledge, experience and skillset to identify current medical thinking, which in my humble opinion, is false. You have proven that not only to me, but to others.

...people deserve a chance to know their being sold snake oil... that I fully agree. Everything I state here is provable, and is here for thousands to check and either accept or disagree with. That is the purpose of this forum, the sharing and discussion of ideas that assist its members. The conversation between you and I is growing further and further from the point of this sub page. I have tried to assist you, to no avail, so further discussions are mute since they are now getting direct between you and I, and of no gain to the forum.

[The Alchemist]

Normally I wouldn't get involved in something like this but it has reached a level of idiocy even I can't ignore.

@BabyBoi91

The thought process you have presented falls in line with the tissue derangement model diagnosis, its continued prevalence as the primary method of diagnosis of medical conditions will continue to be the downfall of medicine in the modern era. Incontinence has several diagnosis criteria that may be objectively measured via urodynamic testing or through evidence of infection, but that is at times irrelevant. These may be excellent method of criterion inclusion but is not suitable for exclusion. In the case of incontinence many patients can present with completely normal urodynamic results, no indication of bacterial or viral infection, and display normal tissue structure via imaging. Yet, if on a subjective questionnaire they report loss of urine that limits their ability to function in daily life and have taken action to limit any risk of urine/fecal loss during their normal daily activities then your objective tests are rendered moot.

Incontinence is simply, the inability to prevent urine or fecal loss during a patient's activities of daily living. We may pigeon hole it into several different categories based on several criteria, but it doesn't render someone's incontinence any lesser than anothers.  If one was to obtain a degree of urine or fecal loss as a result of extended diaper wearing that does not invalidate their inability to perform their ADLs without some secondary protection. This is important to remember when assigning ICD codes for billing, as you will note they tend to specify that the cause may or may not be organic in nature. To put it simply, if someone says they are pissing themselves without control and you are unable to find any resolvable causes you will diagnose them as incontinent. If they have reached the point that in order to live their lives and do what they need to to each day they must wear some form of protection then they are, incontinent. You may pigeon hole it however you wish, but describing them as diaper trained is disingenuous to medical science.

The urinary system is really quite interesting in how much it diverges from skeletal control or smooth muscle autonomous activity, and it seems that at times its nuances are neglected. Like did you know that the subconscious underlying understanding of the bladder's maximal capacity is not handled in the "spinal cord" as you have stated, but rather in the pons of the brainstem in conjunction with several of the brain cortexes in a system that has been described as the "Pontine Micturation Center"  this promotes contraction of the detrussor muscles inducing urination and it is that subconscious noting of how far the bladder is to full capacity that has demonstrated plasticity resulting in what we see as functional incontinence with non-organic origins. So ignoring the PMC's function and affect on urination in lieu of the far simpler model of phasing it as a pressure related stretch due to the bladder over filling as the cause of involuntary urine release would again be disingenuous to medical science.

@babykeiff

I don't very much appreciate those that find need to express their "experience" as evidence of them being "correct" nor do I find it very flattering when a person demands another present their qualifications when they provide an argument. When someone presents an alternative argument that is not in line with your own please look to find flaw with their argument instead of attempting to find arbitrary flaw with their education and credentials in order to prove your point as the correct one. It does not matter if the one posing the point is the foremost expert on the subject, or a janitor everyone's observations and points are valid as long as they are logical. This reminds me about how the current expert on autoimmunity was at one point an ex-playboy bunny that got laughed out of a room of "experts" due to them seeing her as having no real experience or credentials to make her claims about the model of immunology at the time, in the end she was right and they were all wrong, and they would have realized that if they had not looked to her lack of credentials as evidence of their being correct.

[BabyBoi91]

27 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

Normally I wouldn't get involved in something like this but it has reached a level of idiocy even I can't ignore.

@BabyBoi91

The thought process you have presented falls in line with the tissue derangement model diagnosis, its continued prevalence as the primary method of diagnosis of medical conditions will continue to be the downfall of medicine in the modern era. Incontinence has several diagnosis criteria that may be objectively measured via urodynamic testing or through evidence of infection, but that is at times irrelevant. These may be excellent method of criterion inclusion but is not suitable for exclusion. In the case of incontinence many patients can present with completely normal urodynamic results, no indication of bacterial or viral infection, and display normal tissue structure via imaging. Yet, if on a subjective questionnaire they report loss of urine that limits their ability to function in daily life and have taken action to limit any risk of urine/fecal loss during their normal daily activities then your objective tests are rendered moot.

Incontinence is simply, the inability to prevent urine or fecal loss during a patient's activities of daily living. We may pigeon hole it into several different categories based on several criteria, but it doesn't render someone's incontinence any lesser than anothers.  If one was to obtain a degree of urine or fecal loss as a result of extended diaper wearing that does not invalidate their inability to perform their ADLs without some secondary protection. This is important to remember when assigning ICD codes for billing, as you will note they tend to specify that the cause may or may not be organic in nature. To put it simply, if someone says they are pissing themselves without control and you are unable to find any resolvable causes you will diagnose them as incontinent. If they have reached the point that in order to live their lives and do what they need to to each day they must wear some form of protection then they are, incontinent. You may pigeon hole it however you wish, but describing them as diaper trained is disingenuous to medical science.

The urinary system is really quite interesting in how much it diverges from skeletal control or smooth muscle autonomous activity, and it seems that at times its nuances are neglected. Like did you know that the subconscious underlying understanding of the bladder's maximal capacity is not handled in the "spinal cord" as you have stated, but rather in the pons of the brainstem in conjunction with several of the brain cortexes in a system that has been described as the "Pontine Micturation Center"  this promotes contraction of the detrussor muscles inducing urination and it is that subconscious noting of how far the bladder is to full capacity that has demonstrated plasticity resulting in what we see as functional incontinence with non-organic origins. So ignoring the PMC's function and affect on urination in lieu of the far simpler model of phasing it as a pressure related stretch due to the bladder over filling as the cause of involuntary urine release would again be disingenuous to medical science.

@babykeiff

I don't very much appreciate those that find need to express their "experience" as evidence of them being "correct" nor do I find it very flattering when a person demands another present their qualifications when they provide an argument. When someone presents an alternative argument that is not in line with your own please look to find flaw with their argument instead of attempting to find arbitrary flaw with their education and credentials in order to prove your point as the correct one. It does not matter if the one posing the point is the foremost expert on the subject, or a janitor everyone's observations and points are valid as long as they are logical. This reminds me about how the current expert on autoimmunity was at one point an ex-playboy bunny that got laughed out of a room of "experts" due to them seeing her as having no real experience or credentials to make her claims about the model of immunology at the time, in the end she was right and they were all wrong, and they would have realized that if they had not looked to her lack of credentials as evidence of their being correct.

Yes I completely agree that urodynamic models are good for inclusion but exclusion. Most (good) urologists I know do just that. Good point. 
 

my comment about the spinal cord (actually I mentioned sacral plexus which isn’t part of the spinal cord) and bladder is SOLELY for infants. The sacral plexus is what regulates bladder release at birth. The signals don’t even need to go up to the brain. It is a primitive reflex (we have many, like the palmar reflex and the suckling reflex and the rooting reflex). Once the brain develops, our brain suppresses many (not all) primitive reflexes because they are “not needed.” 
 

And you also bring up a fair point that not all doctors keep up with advancing medical literature or have patient-centered approaches to care. I would say the vast majority of doctors I’ve had, met, or worked with are pretty good in this regard , but I’ve also had my fair share who are just trying to get a paycheck and the next patient. Those I avoid at all cost. 

23 hours ago, PuraVidaDip said:

Ok so I was wondering about the link between masturbation and sphincter control. @babykeiffwould you expand on this. I’ve been reading this and your other post and it seems like you're saying “don’t relax.” I thought relaxing was the goal here.

What are you suggesting regarding the bladder, just void when full? Hold it until then? I thought the goal was go as much as possible and then to be constantly relaxed. 

It’s true that people usually use some of their pelvic floor muscles during masturbation (especially men when ejaculating). 
 

some people find having weaker pelvic floor muscles helps then “train incontinence” faster. So they limit their masturbation. 
 

Others don’t have a problem.

there are definitely links in the reverse — incontinence being linked to sexual dysfunction. 

But limiting masturbation is probably a “try it for yourself and see if it helps advance your goals?” kind of thing.  

I used the anatomical arguments of why it would accelerate training make “sense,” but personally I have found no affect either way. Others find a benefit to avoiding it.
 

Often times , jsut because something sounds logical doesn’t mean it becomes true for the body. ? 

[babykeiff]

16 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

Normally I wouldn't get involved in something like this but it has reached a level of idiocy even I can't ignore.

@BabyBoi91

The thought process you have presented falls in line with the tissue derangement model diagnosis, its continued prevalence as the primary method of diagnosis of medical conditions will continue to be the downfall of medicine in the modern era. Incontinence has several diagnosis criteria that may be objectively measured via urodynamic testing or through evidence of infection, but that is at times irrelevant. These may be excellent method of criterion inclusion but is not suitable for exclusion. In the case of incontinence many patients can present with completely normal urodynamic results, no indication of bacterial or viral infection, and display normal tissue structure via imaging. Yet, if on a subjective questionnaire they report loss of urine that limits their ability to function in daily life and have taken action to limit any risk of urine/fecal loss during their normal daily activities then your objective tests are rendered moot.

Incontinence is simply, the inability to prevent urine or fecal loss during a patient's activities of daily living. We may pigeon hole it into several different categories based on several criteria, but it doesn't render someone's incontinence any lesser than anothers.  If one was to obtain a degree of urine or fecal loss as a result of extended diaper wearing that does not invalidate their inability to perform their ADLs without some secondary protection. This is important to remember when assigning ICD codes for billing, as you will note they tend to specify that the cause may or may not be organic in nature. To put it simply, if someone says they are pissing themselves without control and you are unable to find any resolvable causes you will diagnose them as incontinent. If they have reached the point that in order to live their lives and do what they need to to each day they must wear some form of protection then they are, incontinent. You may pigeon hole it however you wish, but describing them as diaper trained is disingenuous to medical science.

The urinary system is really quite interesting in how much it diverges from skeletal control or smooth muscle autonomous activity, and it seems that at times its nuances are neglected. Like did you know that the subconscious underlying understanding of the bladder's maximal capacity is not handled in the "spinal cord" as you have stated, but rather in the pons of the brainstem in conjunction with several of the brain cortexes in a system that has been described as the "Pontine Micturation Center"  this promotes contraction of the detrussor muscles inducing urination and it is that subconscious noting of how far the bladder is to full capacity that has demonstrated plasticity resulting in what we see as functional incontinence with non-organic origins. So ignoring the PMC's function and affect on urination in lieu of the far simpler model of phasing it as a pressure related stretch due to the bladder over filling as the cause of involuntary urine release would again be disingenuous to medical science.

@babykeiff

I don't very much appreciate those that find need to express their "experience" as evidence of them being "correct" nor do I find it very flattering when a person demands another present their qualifications when they provide an argument. When someone presents an alternative argument that is not in line with your own please look to find flaw with their argument instead of attempting to find arbitrary flaw with their education and credentials in order to prove your point as the correct one. It does not matter if the one posing the point is the foremost expert on the subject, or a janitor everyone's observations and points are valid as long as they are logical. This reminds me about how the current expert on autoimmunity was at one point an ex-playboy bunny that got laughed out of a room of "experts" due to them seeing her as having no real experience or credentials to make her claims about the model of immunology at the time, in the end she was right and they were all wrong, and they would have realized that if they had not looked to her lack of credentials as evidence of their being correct.

I am sorry to state that both yourself and @BabyBoi91 are, in both my experience and opinion, forgetting that you are dealing with, for the most part here, people that realy have little to no interest in, nor the relevant medical expertise in the minutiae of biological processes. Simply, you, similar to young doctors, are talking over the heads of the majority of your audience. Yes, some of what you say is correct, but a lot of people here have heard that from doctors / specialists / experts and feel very thick after that encounter. That doctor / specialist / expert thinks that s/he fully explained the issue to the paitent and due to the errors in internship, presume that if the paitent has a query, s/hwe will raise it. Most paitents are overwhelmed in some form from medical information, and need time to process it, discuss it with their significant other, do other research to understand its effect on the rest of their lives. This forum here is supposed to be one source, where it is open and understanding enough for them to understand - and not run by the self-arrogant.

Secondly, this is an realitivly open forum where anyone can read, accept, check or ignore, whatever is posted here - so for @The Alchemist not appreciating what I post is less than nothing.

The reason I questioned @BabyBoi91 is to assist him in his life - cause I can see in the way he writes, that he is developing / has developed that 'distancing' that a lot of medical staff do. They distance themselves from the people that they are employed to help. There is thinking that doing so will increase the capability of the medic since they are not emotionally attached to their paitent. I refer to the film 'Patch Adams' as a teaching tool.

Paitents are human. As a result, there is (should be) an attachment. The more one cares about a paitent, the better it is for the paitent. The less one cares about a paitent, the better it is (more profitable) for the industry, as with the distancing, one will freely, and without remorse, financially ruin a person to the gain of you / your job. @The Alchemist makes my point directly in that the diagnosis is incontinence for billing purposes, and one must remember to assign the correct ICD codes.

For those that don't understand, an I.C.D. is an international classification of disease code commonly used by computer billing systems. They were designed to class diseases worldwide, but due to the fact that every persons medical information is private and confidential, and every country worldwide does not share this information, there really is limits on how the I.C.D. can work to the benifit of the paitent. It does benifit the for profit medical industry, and it usually is accountants, administrators and medic that are in it for the money that gain the most benifit from this.

[PuraVidaDip]

Can't we all just get along?

Here are some medical terms on incontinence. Not sure, but this all seems to be an argument over semantics.

2022 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code R32

Unspecified urinary incontinence

• 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 Billable/Specific Code

• R32 is a billable/specific ICD-10-CM code that can be used to indicate a diagnosis for reimbursement purposes.
• The 2022 edition of ICD-10-CM R32 became effective on October 1, 2021.
• This is the American ICD-10-CM version of R32 - other international versions of ICD-10 R32 may differ.

 

Applicable To

• Enuresis NOS

Type 1 Excludes

 

• functional urinary incontinence (R39.81)
• nonorganic enuresis (F98.0)
• stress incontinence and other specified urinary incontinence (N39.3-N39.4-)
• urinary incontinence associated with cognitive impairment (R39.81)

The following code(s) above R32 contain annotation back-references

 

that may be applicable to R32:

• R00-R99
• Symptoms, signs and abnormal clinical and laboratory findings, not elsewhere classified
•  

Approximate Synonyms

• Benign prostatic hypertrophy (enlarged prostate)
• Diurnal enuresis
• Diurnal only enuresis
• Enuresis
• Urinary incontinence
• Urinary incontinence due to benign prostatic hypertrophy

Clinical Information

• (in-kahn-tih-nens) inability to control the flow of urine from the bladder (urinary incontinence) or the escape of stool from the rectum (fecal incontinence).
• A disorder characterized by inability to control the flow of urine from the bladder.
• An elimination disorder characterized by urinary incontinence, whether involuntary or intentional, which is not due to a medical condition and which occurs at or beyond an age at which continence is expected (usually 5 years).
• Failure of voluntary control of the vesical and urethral sphincters, with constant or frequent involuntary passage of urine.
• Inability to control the flow of urine and involuntary urination.
• Inability to control the flow of urine from the bladder.
• Inability to hold urine in the bladder.
• Involuntary discharge of urine after expected age of completed development of urinary control. This can happen during the daytime (diurnal enuresis) while one is awake or during sleep (nocturnal enuresis). Enuresis can be in children or in adults (as persistent primary enuresis and secondary adult-onset enuresis).
• Involuntary loss of urine, such as leaking of urine. It is a symptom of various underlying pathological processes. Major types of incontinence include urinary urge incontinence and urinary stress incontinence.
• Urinary incontinence is loss of bladder control. Symptoms can range from mild leaking to uncontrollable wetting. It can happen to anyone, but it becomes more common with age. Most bladder control problems happen when muscles are too weak or too active. If the muscles that keep your bladder closed are weak, you may have accidents when you sneeze, laugh or lift a heavy object. This is stress incontinence. If bladder muscles become too active, you may feel a strong urge to go to the bathroom when you have little urine in your bladder. This is urge incontinence or overactive bladder. There are other causes of incontinence, such as prostate problems and nerve damage.treatment depends on the type of problem you have and what best fits your lifestyle. It may include simple exercises, medicines, special devices or procedures prescribed by your doctor, or surgery.

https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/R00-R99/R30-R39/R32-/R32

 

 

2022 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code R15

Fecal incontinence

• 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 Non-Billable/Non-Specific Code

• R15 should not be used for reimbursement purposes as there are multiple codes below it that contain a greater level of detail.
• The 2022 edition of ICD-10-CM R15 became effective on October 1, 2021.
• This is the American ICD-10-CM version of R15 - other international versions of ICD-10 R15 may differ.

 

Type 1 Excludes

 

• fecal incontinence of nonorganic origin (F98.1)

Includes

 

• encopresis NOS

The following code(s) above R15 contain annotation back-references

 

that may be applicable to R15:

• R00-R99
   
  Symptoms, signs and abnormal clinical and laboratory findings, not elsewhere classified
• R10-R19
   
  Symptoms and signs involving the digestive system and abdomen

Clinical Information

• A disorder characterized by inability to control the escape of stool from the rectum.
• Bowel incontinence is the inability to control your bowels. When you feel the urge to have a bowel movement, you may not be able to hold it until you get to a toilet. More than 5.5 million americans have bowel incontinence. It affects people of all ages - children and adults. It is more common in women and older adults, but it is not a normal part of aging.causes include
  • constipation
  • damage to muscles or nerves of the anus and rectum
  • diarrhea
  • pelvic support problems
  treatments include changes in diet, medicines, bowel training, or surgery.
• Change in normal bowel habits characterized by involuntary passage of stool
• Failure of control of the anal sphincters, with involuntary passage of feces and flatus; it may be either psychogenic or organic in origin.
• Failure of voluntary control of the anal sphincters, with involuntary passage of feces and flatus.
• Inability to control the escape of stool from the rectum.
• Inability to hold stool in the rectum.
• Involuntary defecation
• Involuntary defecation.

 

https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/R00-R99/R10-R19/R15-/R15

[babykeiff]

If we go on to identify the benifit to the medical industry, and the related cost to the patient, we can look at the COVID path (or any other disease / infection).

Ignoring its source, each country / hospital reports figures based on different criteria. As a result, no figure is correct. If the ICD system worked in the paitents interest, the criteria would be the same worldwide, and the figures reported would have a better chance of being correct.

Secondly, even though the pharmacy industry, refered to as 'big pharma' have the resources, it took private investment from independents like Bill Gates etc to create R&D facilities to attempt to create vaccines / cures for this. Even so, each country prophisied, similar to Trump 'we will be the first to cure this' following the financial interests of 'big pharma'. Recently,  'big pharma' were requested to disclose their formula for the vaccine / cure, but each chose to 'protect their financial interest' rather than publicize same. There are countries around the would without the financial strength to purchase this for their citizens. As a result, the pandemic, which is worldwide, may be eliminated from financially strong contries, but these will get reinfected with variants of the same disease from the poorer countries.

Simply, the medical industry is set up to make money at the cost of those it is employed to help / protect. This attidude, is engrained into all in the industry from their first day in education. As a result, laws have been made worldwide in full disclosure, where an employee of yours, the doctor / medic etc, must fully disclose all information to you, the paitent. The industry deals with this by overcomplicating and overloading the paitent with technical data and/or feild specific abreiviations fully understanding that the paitent has no idea what the doctor / medic is stating. This is technically illegal, but difficult to prove in court. Most, in that industry hate the internet, as it is a source or information, for the paitent. Consider the insult that the medic feels that after 7+ years in education, a patient knows more about what is wrong with them than the medic! In reality, the medic is embarrassed since s/he did not do the work, and is attempting to difuse this by attacking and belittling the paitent.

There is a supposed oath that the medic should practice. Most people are aware of the quote 'I will do no harm'. The full sentance, see wiki, is '...I will do no harm or injustice to them...' and 'I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing'. Correct me if I am wrong please, is it not immoral and wrong to financially bankrupt a paitent? Is it not immoral and wrong to overcharge for products and services. Is it not an injustice to belittle and destroy a paitent?

Medical Sciences are 1000+ years old, with most advances made in the last 100 years. If compared with most other sciences, medical science and it practices are still in the stone-age. (Oath is dated 3rd / 5th century)

Compare this everything else :-

• cars / transport ~140 year old (first car 1880s internal combustion engine)
• electronics ~120 year old (valve 1904, transistor 1947, integrated circuit 1958)

This is not that human knowledge has stagenated, it is that the for-profit model of medicine finds that medication for a symptom is more profitable than the erradication of that disease.

To most in the medical industry, you are just a cash machine, a way of printing money.

Yes, I will get medical people stating that they must be paid for services rendered - and yes, I do agree - but let them get paid like most of the people in the world, based on results! A sales person does not earn money if s/he does not sell, yet medics insist on getting paid before a test even when the test results is negative or worse, inconclusive. If medicine was performance related (paid based on results), it would not be long before disease would be eliminated.

There is a joke between a heart surgeon and a mechanic: Mechanic: Why do you get paid so much? I change similar on an engine. Surgeon: not with it running!

Both stop the item to change / repair it but the surgeon implies that s/he doesnt.

However, if the mechanic could not stop the engine to repair same, s/he would find another way to repair same. The doctor would only treat the symptoms of the damaged engine like adding an oil thinner every 2-4 hours, and not disclose to the owner that in x years it will destroy itself and/or in a few weeks, the engine will be back for more medication.

Doctors etc are people who are supposed to have the relevant knowledge to assist the paitent. They are not Gods or supreme beings - and should not demand to be treated that way OR be treated as such. If the doctor etc does not have the relevant information, they should identify it to the paitent, but most do not.

Fact, most so called medical experts do not have all the information in relation to you, and will hide that fact from you. Consider the doctor as an employee of yours, someone that you employ to do a job... and EVERYTHING that s/he states, you check. If anything that s/he states to you turns out to be incorrect / lie / misleading, terminate that employee and hire another one. In simple terms 'BUYER BEWARE' 

[spark]

7 hours ago, PuraVidaDip said:

Can't we all just get along?

Here are some medical terms on incontinence. Not sure, but this all seems to be an argument over semantics.

I've also heard the argument that just wetting yourself is a form of incontinence

[ValentinesStuff]

12 hours ago, PuraVidaDip said:

An elimination disorder characterized by urinary incontinence, whether involuntary or intentional, which is not due to a medical condition and which occurs at or beyond an age at which continence is expected (usually 5 years).

 

4 hours ago, spark said:

I've also heard the argument that just wetting yourself is a form of incontinence

 

There it is, intentional. So technically all of us that wet our diapers are incontinent.

[PuraVidaDip]

7 hours ago, ValentinesStuff said:

 

 

There it is, intentional. So technically all of us that wet our diapers are incontinent.

Oh well I totally missed that but it does appear to be in line with WHO language below. Not sure if that’s the authority but direct from the WHO who manages ICD. These seem to be psychological codes though. 

Note - I am not an MD but sourcing  any statements of fact are required in my work. I’ll leave it to others with medical school training to say if this is or not applicable here. 

source: https://icd.who.int/browse10/2016/en#/F98.1

F98Other behavioural and emotional disorders with onset usually occurring in childhood and adolescence

A heterogeneous group of disorders that share the characteristic of an onset in childhood but otherwise differ in many respects. Some of the conditions represent well-defined syndromes but others are no more than symptom complexes that need inclusion because of their frequency and association with psychosocial problems, and because they cannot be incorporated into other syndromes.

Excl.:

breath-holding spells (R06.8)

gender identity disorder of childhood (F64.2)

Kleine-Levin syndrome (G47.8)

obsessive-compulsive disorder (F42.-)

sleep disorders due to emotional causes (F51.-)

F98.0Nonorganic enuresis

A disorder characterized by involuntary voiding of urine, by day and by night, which is abnormal in relation to the individual's mental age, and which is not a consequence of a lack of bladder control due to any neurological disorder, to epileptic attacks, or to any structural abnormality of the urinary tract. The enuresis may have been present from birth or it may have arisen following a period of acquired bladder control. The enuresis may or may not be associated with a more widespread emotional or behavioural disorder.

Enuresis (primary)(secondary) of nonorganic origin

Functional enuresis

Psychogenic enuresis

Urinary incontinence of nonorganic origin

Excl.:

enuresis NOS (R32)

F98.1Nonorganic encopresis

Repeated, voluntary or involuntary passage of faeces, usually of normal or near-normal consistency, in places not appropriate for that purpose in the individual's own sociocultural setting. The condition may represent an abnormal continuation of normal infantile incontinence, it may involve a loss of continence following the acquisition of bowel control, or it may involve the deliberate deposition of faeces in inappropriate places in spite of normal physiological bowel control. The condition may occur as a monosymptomatic disorder, or it may form part of a wider disorder, especially an emotional disorder (F93.-) or a conduct disorder (F91.-).

Functional encopresis

Incontinence of faeces of nonorganic origin

Psychogenic encopresis

Use additional code, if desired, to identify the cause of any coexisting constipation.

Excl.:

encopresis NOS (R15)

[babykeiff]

On 2/4/2022 at 6:38 PM, PuraVidaDip said:

Clinical Information

 

• An elimination disorder characterized by urinary incontinence, whether involuntary or intentional, which is not due to a medical condition and which occurs at or beyond an age at which continence is expected (usually 5 years).

Therefore, by this information, any person, over the age of 5 years (beyond an age), who excretes urine by choice or by accident, and not due to a medical condition OR a non identified medical condition and into something other that a toilet is classed as incontinent, since it is expected that a person of that age would eliminate into a toilet. Not doing so, clinically is a disorder.

This means that when one gives a urine sample by urinating into a speciman cup, they are incontinent.

Inversely, a person equal to or below that age is NOT incontinent.

This makes the term incontinent not related to those who have any medical condition. Since every one is unique, and new medical conditions are being discovered daily, it is only a mater of time before the whole world is NOT incontinent.

I think that your information source has to be false!

[Enthusi]

7 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

Therefore, by this information, any person, over the age of 5 years (beyond an age), who excretes urine by choice or by accident, and not due to a medical condition OR a non identified medical condition and into something other that a toilet is classed as incontinent, since it is expected that a person of that age would eliminate into a toilet. Not doing so, clinically is a disorder.

This means that when one gives a urine sample by urinating into a speciman cup, they are incontinent.

Inversely, a person equal to or below that age is NOT incontinent.

This makes the term incontinent not related to those who have any medical condition. Since every one is unique, and new medical conditions are being discovered daily, it is only a mater of time before the whole world is NOT incontinent.

I think that your information source has to be false!

Well there’s a requirement that any condition causes dysfunction or problems for it to be considered a disorder.  So voiding in a cup for a pee test would not count.   
 

Also that’s precisely what “nonorganic” implies.  The problem is not due a so called medical cause.   

Let’s make this simple:  Can you reliably get all your pee (or poop) to the potty? If not you’re incontinent. 
 

 

@BabyBoi91 I sent you a message. Check your inbox! ?

[babykeiff]

17 minutes ago, Enthusi said:

Well there’s a requirement that any condition causes dysfunction or problems for it to be considered a disorder.  So voiding in a cup for a pee test would not count.   
 

Also that’s precisely what “nonorganic” implies.  The problem is not due a so called medical cause.   

Let’s make this simple:  Can you reliably get all your pee (or poop) to the potty? If not you’re incontinent. 
 

 

@BabyBoi91 I sent you a message. Check your inbox! ?

So, following your logic, someone with an infection would be classed as having a disorder... and because they have a disorder, they cannot be incontinent.

The non description is similar to what insurance companies write to try and attempt to remove their obligation to pay a claim. This one trys to state that a body that covers expenses including incontinence does not have to pay out for incontinence if the person is voiding in anything other than a toilet.

Incontinence is the uncontrolled loss of bladder and/or bowel contents. This would be due to weak sphincters and/or diet. Anything else is not incontinence, but as result of a training regime of controlled voiding. This can be in diapers / toilet, but it is not classed as incontinence. It might be diaper dependance as a sypmtom of the training, and it is a symptom / causal result.

Calling it incontinence is similar to refering to a person who got shot as dieing of lead consumption.

There are a some here that are incontinent due to birth / injury that created weak sphincters. Incontinence may, for some, need a regime to empty their bladder / bowels that includes enemas, massage, stool softners, water tablets among others, and it is, in its own right, an issue.

There are incontinent here where they have to hourly insert a catheter into themselves, where their junk is not recognisable, and that dealing with UTIs are a part of daily life. And, if they do not do this, their bladder will burst and they will be in even deeper trouble.

To refer to a person who has trained themselves to be diaper dependant, and void by reflex as incontinent is an insult to those who have to go through the 'hell' of manual evacuation every hour of every day.

So far, a lot of people here refer to definition of the term incontinence as it appears for financial gain / reward. Actual incontinence is far worse.

[PuraVidaDip]

15 hours ago, babykeiff said:

Therefore, by this information, any person, over the age of 5 years (beyond an age), who excretes urine by choice or by accident, and not due to a medical condition OR a non identified medical condition and into something other that a toilet is classed as incontinent, since it is expected that a person of that age would eliminate into a toilet. Not doing so, clinically is a disorder.

This means that when one gives a urine sample by urinating into a speciman cup, they are incontinent.

Inversely, a person equal to or below that age is NOT incontinent.

This makes the term incontinent not related to those who have any medical condition. Since every one is unique, and new medical conditions are being discovered daily, it is only a mater of time before the whole world is NOT incontinent.

I think that your information source has to be false!

I didn’t see toilet mentioned in the reference. This is from the governing body over ICD codes. It’s what medical professionals throughout the globe use. By your logic that means you are right and the global medical industry is wrong. 

[babykeiff]

2 hours ago, PuraVidaDip said:

I didn’t see toilet mentioned in the reference. This is from the governing body over ICD codes. It’s what medical professionals throughout the globe use. By your logic that means you are right and the global medical industry is wrong. 

It is not by my logic. It is extrapulation of the statement from the governing body over ICD codes.

The statement:

'An elimination disorder characterized by urinary incontinence, whether involuntary or intentional, which is not due to a medical condition and which occurs at or beyond an age at which continence is expected (usually 5 years). '

 

whether involuntary or intentional cancels itself out as involuntary = not voluntary and intentional = voluntary which makes this whether voluntary or not voluntary which cancels.

which is not due to a medical condition = mute as no one can 100% state that an action is or is not due to a medical condition. Also, medical conditions can be progressive, so this action today may not be due to a medical condition, but tomorrow may be.

which occurs at or beyond an age at which continence is expected (usually 5 years). this simply limits the group to not be a pre toilet trained child. 

The only valid part of that statement An elimination disorder characterized by urinary incontinence which does not define incontinence, but links the non definition to the term elimination disorder , however this is contradicted by the phrase not due to a medical condition.

That statement creates question, not solutions

Q: Is an elimination disorder a medical condition or not?

Q: Is having an elimination disorder the result of a medical condition OR not the result of a medical condition

As previously stated, this term is wrote this way to provide loopholes for legal trickery in order for companies to avoid paying benifits, which since it is part of the ICD codes, as I already stated, it is where these are only for the gain of the industry and at the cost of the patient.

It is not that I am right and the medical industry is wrong... it is where the corrupt money grabbers are manipulating terminology for self gain and at the cost of the paitents, the people that they are supposed to protect. There is supposed to be an oath!

Thank you very much for proving my points.

[PuraVidaDip]

3 hours ago, babykeiff said:

It is not by my logic. It is extrapulation of the statement from the governing body over ICD codes.

The statement:

'An elimination disorder characterized by urinary incontinence, whether involuntary or intentional, which is not due to a medical condition and which occurs at or beyond an age at which continence is expected (usually 5 years). '

 

whether involuntary or intentional cancels itself out as involuntary = not voluntary and intentional = voluntary which makes this whether voluntary or not voluntary which cancels.

which is not due to a medical condition = mute as no one can 100% state that an action is or is not due to a medical condition. Also, medical conditions can be progressive, so this action today may not be due to a medical condition, but tomorrow may be.

which occurs at or beyond an age at which continence is expected (usually 5 years). this simply limits the group to not be a pre toilet trained child. 

The only valid part of that statement An elimination disorder characterized by urinary incontinence which does not define incontinence, but links the non definition to the term elimination disorder , however this is contradicted by the phrase not due to a medical condition.

That statement creates question, not solutions

Q: Is an elimination disorder a medical condition or not?

Q: Is having an elimination disorder the result of a medical condition OR not the result of a medical condition

As previously stated, this term is wrote this way to provide loopholes for legal trickery in order for companies to avoid paying benifits, which since it is part of the ICD codes, as I already stated, it is where these are only for the gain of the industry and at the cost of the patient.

It is not that I am right and the medical industry is wrong... it is where the corrupt money grabbers are manipulating terminology for self gain and at the cost of the paitents, the people that they are supposed to protect. There is supposed to be an oath!

Thank you very much for proving my points.

It’s not me. It’s the World Health Organization.

[babykeiff]

6 minutes ago, PuraVidaDip said:

It’s not me. It’s the World Health Organization.

Then, it is the W.H.O. that has proved my point.

[stevewet]

On 11/17/2021 at 11:39 PM, BabyBoi91 said:

I can definitely say that wearing 24/7 (due to initial bladder problems) for a few years has now lead to complete bladder and bowel incontinence . I’m fine with it . Much more comfortable this way. 

the few times I tried to go a few days without diapers were disastrous. 
 

I didn’t even have to try too hard. I think the bigger thing was “not trying”. Just letting go and letting my body just do whatever on it’s time . 

Same here I just gave in and started using my nappy all the time