A Bad Day For America

[Dougie]

It doesn't take evidence to tell the truth but it takes a decent person to debate a topic instead of calling someone a liar without refuting what they have said. Shame on you!

Bettypooh

Go read the bill, then get back to me. Most of what was in the first post is in that bill. Private insurance will be phased out in 5 to 8 years. There is no public option after the first 4 years.

[PArms]

think it is really time to pass an informal bill of our own that basic says

elect none of the above

In a local election near me, someone was voted into office without even running. The people are so frustrated with the current board and their secretiveness that they finally decided to get someone else in there that would keep everything in the open.

[sarah_ab]

can we just get back to taking it up the ass? that is a much better topic, and so much more enjoyable.

[drynot]

I am curious as to why a lot of Americans seem so dead set against helping their own people. What are you so worried about? The trillions of dollars spent in Iraq would probably fund public healthcare down in the US for decades. With your population your country should be more than able to fund public healthcare with about a 10 dollar increase in your taxes. Let see 350 million people times 10 bucks.... That's a lot of money there folks.

[Pudding]

The big hidden agenda at work is people whom are oppose abortion "don't want to be paying for that procedure". Church & State should *always* be distinct, but it's becoming less and less so in the US.

Also, Sarah is right; more tushie-luv and less paranoid delusional rednecks!

[drynot]

While our healthcare system in Canada has its faults it is light years better than a pay as you go system. You've all heard about the dreaded wait times and I agree that they can be somewhat extreme on occasion. However if you have a major illness or injury you can rest assured that you will receive care in a timely manner. My father needed a quad bypass a couple of years ago after a heart attack and he was admitted and operated on in a matter of hours. My Grandmother suffered a brain hemorrhage last year and was admitted and operated on immediately. Both are doing just fine today.

What is the issue that we Canadians are missing here? Is it the money? Is it the perceived lack of services? Help us understand because to many of us here in the great white north it seems like you folks are being downright selfish.

[Repaid1]

While our healthcare system in Canada has its faults it is light years better than a pay as you go system. You've all heard about the dreaded wait times and I agree that they can be somewhat extreme on occasion. However if you have a major illness or injury you can rest assured that you will receive care in a timely manner. My father needed a quad bypass a couple of years ago after a heart attack and he was admitted and operated on in a matter of hours. My Grandmother suffered a brain hemorrhage last year and was admitted and operated on immediately. Both are doing just fine today.

What is the issue that we Canadians are missing here? Is it the money? Is it the perceived lack of services? Help us understand because to many of us here in the great white north it seems like you folks are being downright selfish.

As one who normally stays out of political debates, I will chime in. Simply put I don't follow the whole idea of Government run health care. As a disabled Veteran and the way the VA Hospitals and services are run. I can't fathom the thought if they can't take care of those of us who fought for the freedom of this great country, how the heck are they going to do it for the entire country? In fact truth be known any service offered by and run by the Government of these United States is poorly ran and budgeted out of means. They hide issues with-in the bills, they just basically add stuff with-in these bills to get them passed on top of what I do consider a plausible plan. Case in point on this one, I just saw the news this morning that they added the provision for healthcare for gay couples ( I don't care mind you). Now previously the government had totally stayed out of that issue and left it to states to decide, so why would this issue be any different? How many "people" that voted on this HR plan even read the thing. Or just were given the overview and said "yeah that's sounds good". They said today they took out the provisions for Illegals, but admittedly denied they were there previously. Our fine president got called out on his lies and the man was forced to apologize. What about that now, do they just say ooooppppss? Previsions for pop machines and fast food joints? Does anybody even know what this plan really entails? Are we to believe that the actual bill is posted? Or them going Ooooopsss again and say it was a clerical error? Then what? This thing is not obviously thought out with the fact that they have the "Pass it now" game plan going on. Been There done that!

I think that is what ticks so many people off. The fact remains that this plan is estimated at 1.2 TRILLION! and we know the Government can never stay in budget. So where does this money come from? We the people have already been duped into bail outs and stimulus packages that were basically a payout for nothing, money just plain wasted.

I think as a True American, most people are more than definitely for health care reform, but certainly not another government fraud to waste our money and that of our grandchildren. So I answer your question as this, "Is it the Money?" Not in the sense of money but the fact that it isn't free as proposed, but not a clear understanding of proof where this money will come from. "Is it the perceived lack of services?" No in fact just the opposite, the fraud within the government. I have no doubt every Tom, Dick, and Harry will now go to the doctor to have everything under the sun treated and it will be covered. The problem is who pays for it? As was mentioned it's not the problem of fixing our health care. We need to fix the government first!! And that's my take!

[boy ricky]

...

I think that is what ticks so many people off. The fact remains that this plan is estimated at 1.2 TRILLION! and we know the Government can never stay in budget. So where does this money come from? We the people have already been duped into bail outs and stimulus packages that were basically a payout for nothing money just plain wasted....

I guess 1.2 trillion sounds like a lot. Of course that is the cost of Iraq. Still it might be better if Americans looked at what health care costs overall. Right now Americans are paying almost double the money on a per capita basis than Canada for healthcare. That is everyone, not just what your government spends on a variety of programs.

If every American had affordable health care, costs for many things would eventually level out and or go down. You would have intervention early on rather than finding cancer in someone in an emergency room. Mothers would be seeing doctors during their pregnancy and developing better and healthier babies.

I think as a True American, most people are more than definitely for health care reform, but certainly not another government fraud to waste our money and that of our grandchildren. So I answer your question as this, "Is it the Money?" Not in the sense of money but the fact that it isn't free as proposed, but not a clear understanding of proof where this money will come from. "Is it the perceived lack of services?" No in fact just the opposite, the fraud within the government. I have no doubt every Tom, Dick, and Harry will now go to the doctor to have everything under the sun treated and it will be covered. The problem is who pays for it? As was mentioned it's not the problem of fixing our health care. We need to fix the government first!! And that's my take!

I know many are just pissed about the whole government bailouts etc, the add-ons to bills being passed. Getting that all cleaned up is a big task. I can say that I believe you have one chance to start "universal" healthcare and that is now. Such a bill has never got this far before. Get it as right as you can now, it will still need some overhauls as you go along but pass it!

[Repaid1]

I guess 1.2 trillion sounds like a lot. Of course that is the cost of Iraq. Still it might be better if Americans looked at what health care costs overall. Right now Americans are paying almost double the money on a per capita basis than Canada for healthcare. That is everyone, not just what your government spends on a variety of programs.

If every American had affordable health care, costs for many things would eventually level out and or go down. You would have intervention early on rather than finding cancer in someone in an emergency room. Mothers would be seeing doctors during their pregnancy and developing better and healthier babies.

I know many are just pissed about the whole government bailouts etc, the add-ons to bills being passed. Getting that all cleaned up is a big task. I can say that I believe you have one chance to start "universal" healthcare and that is now. Such a bill has never got this far before. Get it as right as you can now, it will still need some overhauls as you go along but pass it!

I don't want to start a flame war or anything but the war isn't a issue here. If it were I would point out that Currently Canada has a estimated 2800 troops deployed, factoring in that they are 74th in size of the U.S. military that equates to 207,200 deployed there. The United States currently has 68,000 deployed, that's more than twice what we had there under Bush. We have a president who stated whole/halfheartedly that he would pull out the troops? It would seem that you guys up north are spending more money than us on this war.

There is a reason "such a bill has never got this far before" It's because it's flawed and AMERICA doesn't want it. The polls prove this, well take the polls as you will. The Get it right as you can, and overhaul it later is not in the political system of knowledge. It's much harder to fix something than to plan in advance and do it right the first time. I would much rather get it right now, then pass it later.

The problem is the same, we all know the problem, the government wants to pass something that we the people don't want. They work for us, not the other way around! You guys up north have your ducks somewhat in a row....we don't have that yet. The auto bailout was set at 34 billion, yet now they know it would have taken as much as $125 Billion. Soooo..now what...another $700 Billion to wall street to make sure we got it all overhauled correctly??

Nope I hold my stance, we have come this far with what we have had...a few more months to get it right isn't exactly a major hurdle to overcome or too much to expect My father with all his flaws gave me a piece of advice when I was younger that has always held true with this country and it's people.

There is never time to do it right the first time....just time to do it again!

On a lighter note, It only took them four times to vote in Casino's to Ohio, but the people finally got what they wanted! WhoooHooo, Now I can drive 20 minutes to blow what the goverment didn't take yet!

[BBoy]

Why are Americans so afraid of health care?

1) your health care system is ranked 22nd after Slovenia

2) only 15% of your nation can afford to pay for the old health insurance

3) you are the only G7 nation that doesn't have nationalized health care

Get with the times. The rest of the industrailized world loves national health care and their voters would freak out if someone tried to get rid of it. Don't be so afraid of the future. Embrace it and be happy that more of your nation will be able to go to a doctor. Even China where they treat people like shit have a better health care system than the USA.

Up here in Canada we are proof of how well it works. Long live National Health Care!!!

[AutieAB]

GOD DAMN COMMIES!

Communism (noun)

A socio-economic ideology that aims to create a classless society in which ownership of national assets is distributed amongst the citizens.

Communist (adj.)

A catch-all, pejorative description for anything the Republicans don't like, normally because it threatens multi-billion dollar profits.

[boy ricky]

Communism (noun)

A socio-economic ideology that aims to create a classless society in which ownership of national assets is distributed amongst the citizens.

Communist (adj.)

A catch-all, pejorative description for anything the Republicans don't like, normally because it threatens multi-billion dollar profits.

Thank you for posting this. It hasn't happened in this forum yet but I get a little tired of half truths when referring to Canada. Things like we are a socialist or communist country. That is not the case. We are a parliamentary democracy, not much different than the USA.

Our health care program is funded by ten provincial governments and three territorial governments. Some jurisdictions charge as much as $900 a year for healthcare and some charge nothing. In all cases it is based on income. Low to middle income families and individuals pay very little or nothing for their healthcare.

The government has very little say in the day to day delivery of healthcare. If your Doctor feels you need treatment, like in the USA, you get the treatment.

The big differences between Canada and the USA is that where you pay hundreds of dollars a month for health care you purchase from an insurance company, we might pay hundreds of dollars over a year.

American costs are higher in part due to administration - the multiple layers between you and your insurance and your doctor. Compound that with 4500 or so different insurance companies and thousands more insurance policies and you have just created a huge accounts receivable department in doctors offices and hospitals. On the other end you have huge accounts payable departments within employers and insurance companies.

Another significant difference would be the profit factor. Hospitals and insurance companies have to make a profit to pay the shareholders. Hospitals in Canada are non-profit. Insurance is provided by the government.

Then we have drug costs. The different jurisdictions in Canada decide what drugs they will pay for. The drug companies must negotiate a reasonable price for their drugs if they want to sell them in Canada. As there is one primary purchaser of drugs, a reasonable price can be reached. The companies still make a good profit on their drugs (All the big companies still do research on new drugs up here and manufacture drugs here as well.)

Several US States have wanted to do this but have been thwarted by anti-trust laws. Some of the same laws that prevent many people in the USA from suing their insurance company because they refused to fund a specific treatment.

Our system is not perfect. We have our challenges from time to time. Our system still covers everyone. It's much more affordable for us as individuals and as a country. We have one of the best life expectancy rates, near the worlds lowest infant mortality rates, fewer unwanted teenage pregnancies, and overall best health outcomes. I will take that over paying thousands of dollars every year to an insurance company that may one day decide I have a pre-existing condition so don't qualify for coverage.

Edited November 9, 2009 by boy ricky

[loopy]

Communism (noun)

A socio-economic ideology that aims to create a classless society in which ownership of national assets is distributed amongst the citizens.

Communist (adj.)

A catch-all, pejorative description for anything the Republicans don't like, normally because it threatens multi-billion dollar profits.

That sounds like commie speak to me boy! You red or summin? *gets out the shotgun*

[Youngatheart252]

Why is it that almost everyone that is for an AMERICAN nationalized healthcare, doesn't even live here?

[BBoy]

Because we live in a country that has health care for all and frankly the amount of false information the US people are getting is really stunning. As for non-Americans being the only ones that are pro-health on this site, 65% of Americans are for a national health care system. It seems the minority are the vocal majority.

[Andy]

Why is it that almost everyone that is for an AMERICAN nationalized healthcare, doesn't even live here?

Because we know what we'd have to give up if coming over

[curiositykilledthecat]

Could some of you realize that the United States is the third largest nation population wise in the world. Our cost per person is going to be higher than say Australia or Holland or some other nation with a significantly lower population. I'm not going to freak out over the bill yet as in it's current form it will not pass the senate.

It;s too soon to hit the panic button, calm down everyone.

[boy ricky]

Why is it that almost everyone that is for an AMERICAN nationalized healthcare, doesn't even live here?

Because we know it works better.

As to living there, i live there several months of the year and I have family that live there. Even with awesome plans you still end up paying thousands of dollars every year. If you actually use your health coverage or need surgery it will cost thousands more.

[AutieAB]

Could some of you realize that the United States is the third largest nation population wise in the world. Our cost per person is going to be higher than say Australia or Holland or some other nation with a significantly lower population.

Ever heard of economies of scale? I'm no economist but I'd wager the principle applies just as well to healthcare as it does to anything else.

Anyway, my position (not that it matters one iota: non-citizen = no vote) is that even if nothing else comes out of all this, the one thing that must come out of it is the end of private insurance companies being able to refuse coverage for any reason. The right to accessible healthcare that won't bankrupt you is a right not a privilege. That this country, which considers itself a world leader in healthcare, doesn't extend access to it in one form or another to all it's citizens and legal residents should be a national embarrassment.

Someone will doubtless tell me that hospitals are legally obliged to treat whoever comes in through their doors but that's missing the point. People who know that walking in the door will cost them $20,000 that they don't have simply don't go to hospital. People die in this country because of that (first-hand experience).

[sarah_ab]

and why do those nations have lower population? oh yes because of their ability to provide proper birth control to all citizens means that many countries do not have huge population growth rates, and those citizens that do live there have longer life spans, are healthier, there are lower suicide rates, homeless rates, illiteracy rates, unemployment rates... ahhh but thats right, we are living the american dream, where we'll say we will help our neighbor out but when it comes down to shelling out some money suddenly we dont know that person and can't help them.... We all like to think we are good people, but when it comes right down to it, we are a nation of self righteous arrogant ignorant assholes....

god bless america.

[redneck diaper boy]

I reality, Canada has a shortage of doctors. Family doctors are awarded by a lottery scheme. Come on Canadians. Say it isn't so!

I still have some money in my MSA. I have to use it or loose it before years end. Yesterday my wife called the dentest for an appointment. My appointment is for today. Try that in the UK or Canada. Non emergency dental care is less than 24 hours.

Because we know it works better.

As to living there, i live there several months of the year and I have family that live there. Even with awesome plans you still end up paying thousands of dollars every year. If you actually use your health coverage or need surgery it will cost thousands more.

[redneck diaper boy]

Health insurance companies aren't greedy. Their profit margin is under 5 percent!

You know all of what you mentioned could have been prevented if Health Insurance companies weren't so corrupt that they rip off patients and doctors by denying claims and not reimbursing doctors just so they could make more of a profit by just pushing paper around. After all private insurance doesn't kill a cancer cell. You think this is a government take-over of healthcare but where were you when the government enacted medicare and medicaid? What about government subsidized healthcare for soldiers? The VA? Native Americans? All those programs are single-payer systems. I generally like to keep government out of most things because for the most part government is dumb and wasteful but the status quo just simply isn't fair and it is corrupt and I'm realistic. I know this because I have two parents that are doctors and for far too long I've seen my dad work for 80 hours a week and not get reimbursed properly. I would also like to see the provision that says it will eventually be illegal to buy private insurance. That doesn't seem realistic at all. The reason also why people are being required to have insurance is because those who do not have insurance still are covered and the cost then goes to the hospital,doctor or both which then goes to the next consumer that can pay for it.

[Pudding]

Family doctors are awarded by a lottery scheme.

You mean a "national triage system", right? Learn the difference; it could save your life!

[Andy]

I reality, Canada has a shortage of doctors. Family doctors are awarded by a lottery scheme. Come on Canadians. Say it isn't so!

I still have some money in my MSA. I have to use it or loose it before years end. Yesterday my wife called the dentest for an appointment. My appointment is for today. Try that in the UK or Canada. Non emergency dental care is less than 24 hours.

If it is an emergency I can go to the dentist without even calling for an appointment. You go to the doc and sooner or later that day you`ll have your appointment. In one case I once had to wait a bit longer with a bad tooth but the docs helper was so kind to give me a pill to kill the pain a bit. That`s it in good ole Germany

[AutieAB]

I still have some money in my MSA. I have to use it or loose it before years end. Yesterday my wife called the dentest for an appointment. My appointment is for today. Try that in the UK or Canada. Non emergency dental care is less than 24 hours.

You'll never hear me praise the British NHS dental system for that truly is FUBAR and is not free at the point of use. Still, the cost of the last filling I had was £19 and yes, it was done same day. My wife had a filling done in the US not too long ago. She had to pay over $450 and the insurance was hit for another $1800 so a total of $2250. For one solitary filling?! F***ing crazy...

...

This thread winds me up too much. I'm off to sit in front of the Xbox for a while with a bottle of warm choccie milk