“Not yet wet diapers”: The reframe you didn’t know you needed.

[Enthusi]

Hi friends, I’m back with another update.    

I’ve been struggling to reconcile my desire to “test” my progress by going without a diaper with my desire to “fail” at staying dry.   As anyone who is into untraining will attest, it is a tricky thing, because incontinence is often most noticeable when we least expect it. (Ie we are distracted and suddenly we notice our diaper is growing progressively warmer.)   @oznl has talked about this phenomenon numerous times.    When I go without a diaper and try to stay dry, I  almost always fail. When I do so I deem the results as invalid because I am biased towards failing! And yet, in the off chance I’m successful at staying dry, I get all dysphoric and angsty that my hard earned progress is a lie!  Argh! ?

Then yesterday seemingly out of the blue it dawned on me that what if I have it all wrong?  What if I start with the assumption that being wet is the “normal” state?  It’s expected that I will wet myself and that my diaper will be wet.  The only time my diaper is dry is when I just changed and that’s only because there hasn’t been enough time for it to be wet. 
 

This may sound like a trivial reframe, but it’s not.  For starters, testing becomes an exercise in futility. If you pee yourself without a diaper on, it’s not surprising. If you manage to stay dry then it just means you didn’t go long enough to wet yourself.  It also means there’s no point in checking your diaper to see if you are wet.  Instead you are checking to see how wet you are.  

For me it’s been a game changer.  It’s so much easier to be confident that I will wet myself and plan accordingly than to question how incontinent I am.  Wetting is expected. Unsurprisingly, because I expect to be wet, I’m not really paying attention to my body signals and I feel even more incontinent than before! ?

[~Brian~]

3 hours ago, Enthusi said:

Hi friends, I’m back with another update.    

I’ve been struggling to reconcile my desire to “test” my progress by going without a diaper with my desire to “fail” at staying dry.   As anyone who is into untraining will attest, it is a tricky thing, because incontinence is often most noticeable when we least expect it. (Ie we are distracted and suddenly we notice our diaper is growing progressively warmer.)   @oznl has talked about this phenomenon numerous times.    When I go without a diaper and try to stay dry, I  almost always fail. When I do so I deem the results as invalid because I am biased towards failing! And yet, in the off chance I’m successful at staying dry, I get all dysphoric and angsty that my hard earned progress is a lie!  Argh! ?

Then yesterday seemingly out of the blue it dawned on me that what if I have it all wrong?  What if I start with the assumption that being wet is the “normal” state?  It’s expected that I will wet myself and that my diaper will be wet.  The only time my diaper is dry is when I just changed and that’s only because there hasn’t been enough time for it to be wet. 
 

This may sound like a trivial reframe, but it’s not.  For starters, testing becomes an exercise in futility. If you pee yourself without a diaper on, it’s not surprising. If you manage to stay dry then it just means you didn’t go long enough to wet yourself.  It also means there’s no point in checking your diaper to see if you are wet.  Instead you are checking to see how wet you are.  

For me it’s been a game changer.  It’s so much easier to be confident that I will wet myself and plan accordingly than to question how incontinent I am.  Wetting is expected. Unsurprisingly, because I expect to be wet, I’m not really paying attention to my body signals and I feel even more incontinent than before! ?

@Enthusi

I believe the state of being wet is normal for someone who is incontinent or who is trying to untrain. The reason I say this is because when you have a diaper on, people expect you to either have a reason for wearing it, or a reason for using it. If you're incontinent, your diaper is used, and you have to change it when it becomes wet enough so that it is not something you can deal with, and by that I mean wear a wet diaper for a long period of time without it causing you a problem.

being incontinent also means that you do not know when or where or what you will release. You don't know any of this because you are just going about your business, and your body will tell you or may not tell you in some cases but you have to go. People who cannot feel anything downstairs, because their plumbing " does not work" may not be able to feel the release, but then may feel that their diaper is either wet or messy - In this case it is because they feel it after the fact rather then before or during it.

The ultimate thing that you are trying for in this example is to be wet: by this I mean that you are untraining yourself from many years of being trained to release your business in a toilet - as you know, untraining is the process by which you are going to defeat your potty training, and tell your body your brain and the rest of yourself that it is OK to use your diaper. If as you say, you are trying to be in a situation where you are going to be in a diaper, and then release whenever you feel like it or when you feel it, it will come with time:  eventually, your diaper will be wet when you release whatever you release, and with more time passing, you will be unable to go without having a diaper on without releasing its contents. The only thing is, it will take a lot of time to get there. Remember you are undoing what you learned from the age of about 2 1/2- it will come with time but it will also come at a cost, because you will now know that you are not trusting yourself if you don't have a diaper on.

If you are using a diaper for any reason: it is expected that you would use it, it is expected that you wear it, and people assume that you need your diapers. Remember that if you have a diaper on or are using it for any reason, there is an exception and an expectation that you would use what you have on, and that there is a reason for you to have a diaper on and to use it. Whether or not someone finds out about it, you do have a reason for using it: I remember when I first started my journey in 2019, I was worried that somebody would find out, or that someone would figure out and then I was wearing or using my diapers. I finally came to the realization that I need my diapers, and that my diapers have a reason: after going through several bouts of IBS diverticulitis and having accidents, diapers became necessary, and very soon they became needed 24/7 365- there is no way around it because there is no reason to fight what is reality - I am incontinent, I am a diaper lover, and there's nothing that will change that particular part of my journey.

Remember my friend: when you were a baby, you had no control over any of your muscles: that included your bowel and your bladder: This is why babies need diapers: they have no control and they have no way of knowing when or where or how they are going to release the contents of what they're holding.  I would not worry about stressing when you're dry- that simply means that you are dry at the moment, but you could release at any moment as well. Just because you have a diaper on does not mean that you will instantly release whatever you are holding, but you have to remember that you are training yourself to do this, and as you said on many occasions it does take time to make that happen- but it will happen- when it does you will have no control and you will need your diapers 24/7, and you won't be able to trust yourself not to have one on- when that happens you will know it because you will not have any control of anything anymore, and you will be able to say that you "failed potty training" there may be times when you are dry, but very soon the times they were dry will be less and less and as you proceed in your training cycle you will become more aware or even less aware of your state of your diaper, which is also normal: if you have no control over those muscles, then you just release whenever you want whether you feel it or not.

I would not stress about being dry: sounds to me like you are going through your training at your own speed, and you will get there eventually- but you will get there: in my case it is a lot easier to release when I feel it, and that is because I know I have protection on and I don't have to worry anymore. The stress level in my life has gone down to near 0 because of me wearing diapers, because I have decided that that is the easiest way to deal with about 90% of the incredible stress level that I have been dealing with for the last two years. Diapers helped me deal with my stress, but I would not stress about you not being wet at all times either because that comes with practice, with time, and patience: remember nothing happens overnight and you know that as well as anyone else, but all I can say is keep rolling, because you will get thereand when you do , you will know it and you will join the class of incontinent people , because then you will not have any control over what is happening with your bladder or your bowels, and then you can take a drink of champagne in celebration because you made it.

good luck my friend and keep us posted love to read about your journey and your thoughts and feelings about it!

Brian

Edited June 22, 2022 by ~Brian~
Word edit

[Little Sherri]

I have definitely noted that the state of one's diaper, or the state of one's daytime or overnight continence, seems to obey laws similar to those that apply to particle physics at a quantum level. Specifically, the act of observation inevitably changes the outcome. I find I'm best off to just wear a diaper all the time and whatever happens, happens. If I try to quantify or log or test my experience, I change the outcome. Only on aggregate, over a protracted period of time, can trends be noted and confirmed. Whether or not I wet the bed tonight has very little to offer, in terms of determining if I am, or am not, prone to bedwetting, for example. If I get distracted on a work project, and dribble contentedly into my diaper, as sometimes happens, or, I start holding it unconsciously, and get rudely poked by my irate bladder at some point, as also sometimes happens, it would be a mistake to call either outcome proof or disproof of something. But the filling and emptying of my diaper pail, and the refilling of my diaper drawer tells, for me, the important story: I wear diapers. 

Given that it's often not easy, nor convenient, to conduct one's business as an active adult, entirely within the confines of puffy plastic baby pants, I believe one has to conclude that I need to wear them. The root cause is, to me, interesting on an intellectual level, but not relevant to the outcome. The root cause may change over time. Perhaps I wanted to wear diapers to bed because it made me happier and I slept better at one point in time, and at another point in time, it became more about keeping the linens dry. Regardless of precisely why, the fact remains, I need to wear diapers to bed. I am not going to apply some kind of empirical validity test to that need; the need is valid. I don't require a spreadsheet's confirmation or disconfirmation, I merely have to believe it. And I do. I've given up on deliberately testing myself, as it doesn't provide much useful information, it's too subject to the potential for bias, and I will doubt whatever result I get. Whereas I don't doubt my trash can full of nappies when I wheel it to the curb!

[Stroller]

I really went that way from the moment I went to full-time wearing.  There's been no question of whether I was 'really' incontinent or not in my mind, as I had no intention of ever testing it out.  It's been over 2 years now, and my wetting is a lot more automatic than it was, but my thought processes haven't changed, and I've never attempted to control my wetting.  I couldn't go back now without a process of retraining myself to hold back and to recognise when I need to wet, and I've no idea how long that would take.  A week?  A year?  I'll never have to find out, as I'm always going to be in a nappy.  Thankfully I've not had many poo accidents, and my wife/Mummy wouldn't be impressed if I did.  Control in that area isn't what it was, but again I've not made any attempts to control things back there, other than to head for the toilet asap when I feel any urges starting.

I'm typing this in my overnight terry nappy & plastic pants, with my starry toddler jamas over the top, dummy in my mouth.  My big furry rabbit is on the sofa, as I've brought her down from the bedroom for the day.  I've just had my breakfast, taken Mummy up a cup of tea, and shortly I'll be heading for the bathroom for a wash, a poo and a nappy change.  Then it'll be shorts and onesie for the day, with my dummy in either my pocket or my mouth all day.  A life such as I couldn't have dreamed of a few years ago.  I won't be worrying about when or whether my nappy is wet or dry until I'm obviously in need of changing, probably around 4pm.

[oznl]

16 hours ago, Little Sherri said:

I have definitely noted that the state of one's diaper, or the state of one's daytime or overnight continence, seems to obey laws similar to those that apply to particle physics at a quantum level. Specifically, the act of observation inevitably changes the outcome. I find I'm best off to just wear a diaper all the time and whatever happens, happens. If I try to quantify or log or test my experience, I change the outcome.

This has totally been my experience to date. 

If I think about it (always a bad start), there’s an inherent paradox in attempting to voluntarily acquire an involuntary behaviour.  It’s a bit like learning not to think about elephants.

Rule 1: Don't think about elephants

Rule 2: Forget Rule 1 is a rule (but don't break it)

17 hours ago, Enthusi said:

 

I’ve been struggling to reconcile my desire to “test” my progress by going without a diaper with my desire to “fail” at staying dry.   As anyone who is into untraining will attest, it is a tricky thing, because incontinence is often most noticeable when we least expect it. (Ie we are distracted and suddenly we notice our diaper is growing progressively warmer.)   @oznl has talked about this phenomenon numerous times.    When I go without a diaper and try to stay dry, I  almost always fail. When I do so I deem the results as invalid because I am biased towards failing! And yet, in the off chance I’m successful at staying dry, I get all dysphoric and angsty that my hard earned progress is a lie!  Argh! ?

I have also been curiously reluctant to test my daytime control.  Partly because it is by now, very uncomfortable and inconvenient but more so I suspect because I will get a bit "dysphoric and antsy" at finding robust continence.

I only tested my night time control by the time I was pretty damn sure there was action happening.  Even then, it was always the SECOND night that involved wet sheets.  It's as though the first night failed because the novelty of my situation meant that I couldn't forget the elephant but I couldn't sustain that level of concentration for 48 hours.

I wonder if my daytime control would similarly fall short over a 2 day test but then Mr Dysphoric and Antsy show up and I decided to pour myself a beer instead...

 

[DLJeff52]

First a shout out to @Enthusi and everyone who has responded.  The intellectual might reflected in these posts staggers the mind!  I couldn't agree more with @Little Sherri and your insights.  I hadn't fully considered the implications of "tracking" having an effect on the process that may or may not be helpful.  I had always thought that by tracking, I could gain encouragement from the trends, so to speak.  While I actually still think that is valid, I am increasingly of the mindset that it may help in the "early stage" where developing a routine is important as a way to help traction.  As I sit 7+ months into the journey, however, I find myself less inclined to track anything and wondered if I was getting lazy.  Instead, I take great comfort in the notion that:

20 hours ago, Little Sherri said:

But the filling and emptying of my diaper pail, and the refilling of my diaper drawer tells, for me, the important story: I wear diapers. 

The measure of my "status" is in the filling and refilling of drawers and diaper pails.  Whatever happens in between is, well, just what happens.  I love the freedom that comes with this mindset.  As long as I'm emptying diaper pails and filling drawers with new diapers, it is simply obvious that I wear diapers. I also love the observation that:

 

20 hours ago, Little Sherri said:

The root cause may change over time.

And is relatively inconsequential to the reality that I wear diapers.  The subjectivity and potential bias inherent in whatever level of testing I perform is not only statistically insignificant, but also irrelevant to the ultimate truth:  I wear diapers.  Let's say, for instance that I "tried" to test my incontinence by not wearing diapers for two days or for two weeks.  Whether I wet everyday all the time, or 70% of the time or 30% of the time, the sample size is too small to draw any conclusion.  Instead, the reality is that whether it is 1% or 100%, I need to wear diapers for reasons that may fluctuate both in number and type over time.  

I'm sure I've only clouded the water with my babbles, but at least in my head there is so much greater clarity!! Thank you all for your thoughts! 

[BabyBoi91]

On 6/22/2022 at 8:06 AM, Enthusi said:

When I go without a diaper and try to stay dry, I  almost always fail. When I do so I deem the results as invalid because I am biased towards failing! And yet, in the off chance I’m successful at staying dry, I get all dysphoric and angsty that my hard earned progress is a lie!  

Yeah, so this is why I’m not sure self-testing does much good. The conscious mind has a lot of defense mechanisms (intellectualization and rationalization come to mind, even testing may be a defense mechanism…). 
 

I would simply ask yourself—how is this advancing your goal ? How is this advancing your training ? 

cuz based on your posts, your training works. and you said yourself you end up quite wet when when you go without. You just come up with some excuse or some reason to say it’s invalid—except that’s kindof moot.
 

Because other people who don’t have to wear protection (?), don’t pee their pants—whether on purpose or on accident. 
 

and I don’t care what age you are or why you’re doing it, if someone pees their pants enough (consciously on purpose or not), they’re gonna get told they need “protection” or put back in pull-ups / diapers / etc. 

so you’re attempt at rationalization fails, boo. (And I’ve spent too many years working in psychiatry, family medicine, and/or child psych for you to tell me otherwise). ?

On 6/22/2022 at 8:06 AM, Enthusi said:

What if I start with the assumption that being wet is the “normal” state?  It’s expected that I will wet myself and that my diaper will be wet.  

So, this is what my family started saying to me, and helped me a lot with my “bladder regression” (and kindof seeing it as bladder regression helped accelerate it tbh).

i started telling them when I would wet the bed (my diaper)— meaning I wet it while I was fully asleep. And they responded with “we kindof just assume you always wet the bet. I mean, your diaper is always wet in the morning when you wake up. So you probably wet it and don’t realize it, even when you ‘think’ you do.” ???

talk about a mind trip.

now fast forward, and I’ve legit had at least 3 occasions where I was messy and didn’t realize it (long story). But the majority of the time I am aware. But those 3 times are enough for my family to remind: “yeah we just assume you can’t control it anymore. Even when you think you can, sorry…”

so yeah, I think rationalization may be a very powerful defense for us to avoid accepting we don’t have control anymore . ??

Good luck, Buddy. 

 

 

(Btw, for those reading my reply to Enthusi, we are decently good friends online. so everything I said was very good natured and I hope he takes it as such, haha ?). 

[Enthusi]

4 hours ago, BabyBoi91 said:

and I don’t care what age you are or why you’re doing it, if someone pees their pants enough (consciously on purpose or not), they’re gonna get told they need “protection” or put back in pull-ups / diapers / etc. 

This… I think about this all the time.  It’s a huge mood for me  

 

Hahaha I love your reply.  I’m not disagreeing on any of it.  The reason why I keep testing is for… reasons.  Some of those reasons are known to me some of them aren’t! Maybe I ought to scrounge up some money for deep psychoanalysis and get back to you! ?

For what it’s worth with this recent gestalt shift (expecting your diaper to be wet), it’s never seemed more pointless to test now than ever before.