For those of you who started out continent, but have achieved incontinence through untraining, how long did it take you to achieve involuntary loss or urine or poo after you started untraining?

[Hannah YMS]

Hi all. I've been wondering something. For those of you who started out continent, but have achieved incontinence through untraining, how long did it take you to achieve involuntary loss or urine or poo after you started untraining? Please vote in the poll.

My vote goes to `While not technically incontinent or diaper dependent, I do experience "post void dribble"`.

Thank you for your responses!

[Enthusi]

So you’d think this would be an easy question to answer.  But I’m looking at the choices and my answer is “I don’t really know”.  For one thing my night and day control went at different times. 
 

But even more than that, the sort of incontinence I have developed from untraining was insidious, so much so that it’s impossible to pinpoint when I started being incapable of staying dry.  
 

Case in point… at some point rather early on, maybe 6-12 months,  I started experiencing what I deemed “unauthorized wettings.” It was infrequent at first, but  I would feel the urge to go, and my sphincter would automatically start to relax a fraction of a second before I gave it permission to relax.   With time that became more and more frequent, and the lag time between when the muscle relaxed and when I told it to relax increased.  At some point along the way my bladder started to spontaneously relax at the same time or even before I was consciously aware I had to pee.   Even so, I don’t remember how far along I was when that threshold was crossed.   Maybe a year or two in to my journey?   
 

 

[Hannah YMS]

7 minutes ago, Enthusi said:

So you’d think this would be an easy question to answer.  But I’m looking at the choices and my answer is “I don’t really know”.  For one thing my night and day control went at different times. 
 

But even more than that, the sort of incontinence I have developed from untraining was insidious, so much so that it’s impossible to pinpoint when I started being incapable of staying dry.  
 

Case in point… at some point rather early on, maybe 6-12 months,  I started experiencing what I deemed “unauthorized wettings.” It was infrequent at first, but  I would feel the urge to go, and my sphincter would automatically start to relax a fraction of a second before I gave it permission to relax.   With time that became more and more frequent, and the lag time between when the muscle relaxed and when I told it to relax increased.  At some point along the way my bladder started to spontaneously relax at the same time or even before I was consciously aware I had to pee.   Even so, I don’t remember how far along I was when that threshold was crossed.   Maybe a year or two in to my journey?   
 

 

Fascinating! I hadn't considered the idea that due to the subtle changes in continence as we untrain that the differences might be unclear, or discrete, over time. Thanks for your input!

[coder_01]

I went a year and a half 'untraining' and never got to the point of being bladder incontinent.  It became very easy to go, to the point where on a few occasions I started going before I realized I even needed to, but after a year and a half of constant diaper wearing and deliberate 'untraining' I was no less continent than before I had started.  When I did abruptly stop wearing after that year and a half, I had to go to the bathroom a bit more frequently than before at first, but that was it - and even that faded back to 'normal' within a week or so.

[Kif]

I haven't gone long enough to say when for myself. 

But, what I can say is that 6 months is for-sure not long enough at last physically. I untrained to the point of bedwetting every other night, and not noticing when I had gone a lot of the time during the day. But, I was able to retrain within a month because I *had to* for my gender confirmation surgery -- one of those things that cuts through consciously and subconsciously. Had me thinking that at least the first 6 months were mostly habitual / in-my-head, since I was able to break the habit by popping into undies cold-turkey.

Though, I'm not sure if I was fully physically unaffected either. Before surgery I definitely had that post-void dribble you have in the polls, and I would leak small amounts when laughing (enough that I'd want to change). And since the surgery, that has arguably gotten worse, I suspect due to my urethra shortening up. And surprisingly, my bowel control has also felt a bit weak too (I haven't had issues with accidents, but I feel a lot less confident about it than before).

So...guess I'll report back after a few years maybe? But my data point might be slightly out of normal since I'm maybe not 100% continent going into this again...so take it with a grain of salt.

[Hannah YMS]

2 hours ago, Eido said:

So, depending on what info specifically you were looking for, you could say that I achieved it at 6 months, 24 months, or 36 months (though the last one's range is really anywhere from 12-36 months).

I suppose my cut-off here would be when was the first time you noticed a consistent inability to maintain control? Extrapolate backwards if necessary. Wow, 9 years though! I'd expect someone like you to untrain rather quickly after 9 years of 24/7. I'm taking internal note of your 3 year mark, however. This makes me feel a bit better.

2 hours ago, Eido said:

I noticed in another thread that you mentioned thinking that the 12-month guide was a bit...optimistic. I've gotta say, that lines up very well with my own experience and many of those I talk to who have also pursued untraining. I think maybe someone can cut the time down to a year if they're able to focus exclusively on untraining for that time period, but life often has ideas outside our own for where that focus gets spent. I get the sense that noticeable progress by the 12-month mark is probably a good milestone to shoot for, but it's likely to take another year or two before things really start to cement in.

I couldn't have expressed it better myself, thank you.

19 minutes ago, Kif said:

But, what I can say is that 6 months is for-sure not long enough at last physically. I untrained to the point of bedwetting every other night, and not noticing when I had gone a lot of the time during the day. But, I was able to retrain within a month because I *had to* for my gender confirmation surgery -- one of those things that cuts through consciously and subconsciously. Had me thinking that at least the first 6 months were mostly habitual / in-my-head, since I was able to break the habit by popping into undies cold-turkey.

After going cold turkey, did you still have nighttime accidents? I'm happy you were able to retrain long enough for your gender confirmation surgery. Well done on your progress so far (I've been following your journey for a while now)!

21 minutes ago, Kif said:

Though, I'm not sure if I was fully physically unaffected either. Before surgery I definitely had that post-void dribble you have in the polls, and I would leak small amounts when laughing (enough that I'd want to change). And since the surgery, that has arguably gotten worse, I suspect due to my urethra shortening up. And surprisingly, my bowel control has also felt a bit weak too (I haven't had issues with accidents, but I feel a lot less confident about it than before).

Fascinating! Do you feel more validated after legitimately having worse continence due to surgery? Maybe the post void dribble contributed to this?

Regarding post void dribble, from my experience it has a lot to do with being habitually relaxed. If I use the toilet for whatever reason and I urinate, I never clench. No matter how much I "wiggle" out afterward, I'll stand up, pull my pants back up, and drip a non-trivial amount of urine into my pants. Uncomfortable? A little. Unexpected? Yes, but maybe not anymore. Validating? Absolutely. I'm also vague on where on the incontinence scale post void dribble puts someone, if one is on the scale at all.

25 minutes ago, Kif said:

So...guess I'll report back after a few years maybe? But my data point might be slightly out of normal since I'm maybe not 100% continent going into this again...so take it with a grain of salt.

My knee jerk reaction to this is: everything you've done to get this far has led up to this point! Your data point is as valid as anyone's, just maybe with a little more context. The conclusion of your journey interests not only me, but most of the regular posters on this forum (and probably more). You're good.

2 hours ago, coder_01 said:

I went a year and a half 'untraining' and never got to the point of being bladder incontinent.  It became very easy to go, to the point where on a few occasions I started going before I realized I even needed to, but after a year and a half of constant diaper wearing and deliberate 'untraining' I was no less continent than before I had started.  When I did abruptly stop wearing after that year and a half, I had to go to the bathroom a bit more frequently than before at first, but that was it - and even that faded back to 'normal' within a week or so.

I'm currently at the 1.5 year mark myself and opposite to you, I find that initiating urination is becoming increasingly difficult, even when I feel urgent. Still, I reach the same conclusion as you: I was no less continent than before I had started. I can also echo the rest of your statement.

[Kif]

24 minutes ago, jonbearab said:

After going cold turkey, did you still have nighttime accidents? I'm happy you were able to retrain long enough for your gender confirmation surgery. Well done on your progress so far (I've been following your journey for a while now)!

I had half of one I guess? Woke up mid-pee. But, that was it! 

24 minutes ago, jonbearab said:

Fascinating! Do you feel more validated after legitimately having worse continence due to surgery? Maybe the post void dribble contributed to this?

Kinda...I feel pretty mixed about it. While not as severe, I feel I relate to those mixed feelings Brian talked about in his thread. Part of me is aware that now I absolutely have to get to the bathroom every hour and genuinely feels uncomfortable going into town without at least some kind of pad just in case...and part of me worries it's "just in my head" and all wishful thinking. I asked the docs and they weren't super concerned about it so eh? Either way, won't matter long-term anyway so that helps me to move past it.

24 minutes ago, jonbearab said:

Regarding post void dribble, from my experience it has a lot to do with being habitually relaxed. If I use the toilet for whatever reason and I urinate, I never clench. No matter how much I "wiggle" out afterward, I'll stand up, pull my pants back up, and drip a non-trivial amount of urine into my pants. Uncomfortable? A little. Unexpected? Yes, but maybe not anymore. Validating? Absolutely. I'm also vague on where on the incontinence scale post void dribble puts someone, if one is on the scale at all.

I agree with this. Though...for me it never came from the shaft, it felt deeper inside. I'd try to deliberately clench and shake it out pre-op, but the dribble would still happen at times...maybe I was in such a habit of relaxing the outer one that the inner one would respond and I wouldn't realize it (as the inner one doesn't consciously respond afik, only the outer one). Like, maybe I'd laugh and it'd all relax...some would enter the urethra without realizing it...I'd clench up again...and later find that end up in my undies with no recollection of how. I dunno, just throwing stuff at the wall haha!

24 minutes ago, jonbearab said:

My knee jerk reaction to this is: everything you've done to get this far has led up to this point! Your data point is as valid as anyone's, just maybe with a little more context. The conclusion of your journey interests not only me, but most of the regular posters on this forum (and probably more). You're good.

Thanks! You too! 

[oznl]

There wasn’t really an answer in the survey that fitted my experience after around 3.25 years of not practicing urinary incontinence.

I’m certainly a bed wetter by now.  As @Eido pointed out, the onset of this (like most milestones on this strange road) is obscured by uncertainty but I suspect the first “incident” happened after around 8 months.  Wet nights remained vanishingly rare for a few months before settling down for once or twice per week.  This up-ticked markedly at the 3 year mark (it seemed to happen overnight) to probably around half the nights or more.  I’m wet EVERY night though: the nights I don’t wet during my sleep, I wet when I wake up during the night. 

I know I’m not doing it deliberately because I tested myself going to bed without a nappy and was woken by cold, wet uncomfortable sheets.  This is something I would not choose to do.

During the day, I’m going to say I’m still 90% continent.  I don’t have much “range” so for a lot of things, it’s just better that I’m in a nappy.  I’m just beginning now to get some hints that there may be a few daytime “accidents” occurring that I’m not always completely aware of.

As for the “12 month guide” thing:  I’d say all that had really happened with 100% reliability by 12 months was that I’d gotten VERY good at peeing in my pants: anywhere, anytime.

[MLDK]

I answered `While not technically incontinent or diaper dependent, I do experience "post void dribble"`.

I have been in diapers 24/7 since May 2013, was very focused, and then real life came in the way. I lost focus, but I remained in diapers still, yet only very thin ones.

I think for me, the reason why I during this period never reached my objective was mostly mental obstruction, my subconscious wouldn’t allow it. Too many situations where wet diapers in need of changing proved too difficult. Also I started out with an iron bladder. Which I to some extent still have to this day, so a lot of thing obstructed my journey.
When I didn’t wear a tape on diaper, I have been wearing only some light padding to catch dribbles, and I never had any significant urges or sense of emergency, close to accidents, when not in a capable tape on diaper.

yet, when I am in a capable diaper, I get urges to pee more frequently, and I also experience these surprise wettings where I just feel my diaper getting warm, this without any warning from my bladder that it was in need of being emptied, it just releases, but it’s strictly habitual. I would never do this or experience it when I’m not properly diapered.

to be honest I don’t think a healthy person can become incontinent the way we like it to be, simply by untraining and wear diapers, resulting in no control what so ever. I would even hint that the 12 month program is somewhat of wishful thinking? Although it does give some tools which one can try and implement, to make it easier to transition from peeing in the toilet to now pee in a diaper.

the onset of Bedwetting according to which @oznl describes I think is also somewhat habitual, and age related (sorry ?). I have had a few genuine accident years back, but not in recent years. Sure I can trick bedwetting if I consume 16oz of water just before bedtime, but I’m waken up by my bladder, it’s not happening while I’m at sleep.

so have I given up on becoming incontinent now? Yes, in the way as described in the 12 month program, it’s simply not happening, nor working for me. Therefore I have for some time now taken another approach to incontinence. I’m actively pursuing overactive bladder and urge incontinence, Im training my bladder to store less and less urine, by initiating voiding in fixed intervals for which I plan on decrease the time between voiding over time. This approach should result in medical verifiable cause of incontinence, namely overactive bladder.

I do this training, not by drinking lots of water, coffee and other substances, but instead I work on increasing my frequency of emptying my bladder, and keeping is as close to empty as I possibly can, while drinking only normal volumes of fluid during the day, and also restricting fluid intake in the evening. I don’t want my bladder to fill during nighttime.

lately I’m beginning to suffer from insomnia to some extent I’ve gone from a heavy sleeper to a light sleeper, as annoying as it can be, I use the opportunity to empty my bladder while I’m awake anyway during nighttime.

I do feel a slight difference in how my bladder feels now, for instance I do feel my bladder beginning to show signs of needing to empty at a lower volume.

when I measure my urine output when I sense an urgency to pee, I sometimes pee in a container from which I can then read my output volume thereby getting an idea of my progress, and the volume my bladder holds when the urge starts to get semi strong. Currently it is maybe 100-150ml. I want this down to much less.

I’m not saying that those who claim success by utilizing the 12 month program are wrong in their statements, or that their  claimed results are made up e.g wishful thinking, only that this program does not work for me. I tried it for almost nine years, and I’m still as continent today, as when I first started.

[oznl]

20 hours ago, MLDK said:

the onset of Bedwetting according to which @oznl describes I think is also somewhat habitual, and age related (sorry ?). I have had a few genuine accident years back, but not in recent years. Sure I can trick bedwetting if I consume 16oz of water just before bedtime, but I’m waken up by my bladder, it’s not happening while I’m at sleep.

I agree that the type of bedwetting I have developed was established through habit.  It *may* be age-related to the extent that I was disturbed at night by bladder urges before going 24/7 and thus having to use my nappy in bed during the night was far from a task or a skill to be required, simply a relief.  My nocturia is by now completely masked by my reliance on night nappies.

I've noticed however that my bedwetting events do not seem to be related to a full bladder.  In fact, if I was to contrive a full bladder, I'd probably either be woken by it or be unable to sleep in the first place.

What happens now is that some time after falling asleep (within as little as 90 minutes), I release pee into my nappy if I am wearing one or my bed if I am not.  There is more than one wetting event per night.  I may sleep through one, some or even all of them.

It seems to be more of a continuation past the veil of sleep of a multi-year daytime pattern of peeing very frequently in very small volumes. And it may *definitely* occur during sleep.  If I'm heavily asleep, I just wake later to find myself wet.  If I'm lightly asleep, I may wake and use my nappy.  If I'm something in the middle, I may have a "pee dream" which often as not, will result in a wet nappy.

[BabyBoi91]

Loss of bowel control happened within weeks working with hypnotherapist—was kindof shocking.
 

There’s been some regression of that regression, but I def know how to lose that again fully, lol. 

bladder control took longer — maybe 2 years for nighttime wetting, 6 months for urge incontinence (if I tried to wear undies by the end of the day they were wet despite my legit efforts), and now 3-4 years later, I def have full on internal sphincter muscle weakness to the point I drip all the time, even if I didn’t want to or try to clinch. 
 

So, 3-4 years for what a lot of people envision as full - on , uncontrollable wetting their diaper .  

[Hannah YMS]

4 hours ago, BabyBoi91 said:

Loss of bowel control happened within weeks working with hypnotherapist—was kindof shocking.
 

There’s been some regression of that regression, but I def know how to lose that again fully, lol. 

bladder control took longer — maybe 2 years for nighttime wetting, 6 months for urge incontinence (if I tried to wear undies by the end of the day they were wet despite my legit efforts), and now 3-4 years later, I def have full on internal sphincter muscle weakness to the point I drip all the time, even if I didn’t want to or try to clinch. 
 

So, 3-4 years for what a lot of people envision as full - on , uncontrollable wetting their diaper .  

Congratulations! Any regrets?

[BabyBoi91]

On 5/31/2022 at 7:35 PM, jonbearab said:

Congratulations! Any regrets?

Not to sound cliche’, but the “regret I didn’t start sooner” is partially true.

that said, I also believe people’s bodies and minds will go down this route if/when they are ready. ? there’s a lot of personal acceptance that has to happen, I think. But it’s a very good thing. 

I just know that a lot of the fears/anxiety/worries etc that I tended were very much way overblown, and at the time I didn’t realize exactly how hyperbolic and/or laughably catastrophic I was making some of those fears out to be. In my head, they seemed fully reasonable. It wasn’t til I actually talked about them outloud with family / therapist that I realized 90% of my fears were irrational and the remaining 10% were much more inward and had to do with self-acceptance or relationships. 

i think anyone serious about going down this route should consider talking with a therapist to explore it for sure. Take it slow and don’t feel a need to approach it  too black / white or success / fail. Approach it as a “getting to understand yourself and what you want in life” better. 

[ppdude]

With broken plumbing and a constant but growing leak over the past 25+ years, I still have to go pee. I'll probably never achieve total urinary incontinence no matter how hard I might want it. So, if you want it -- who gives a flying f*** if your really are or not? If you want it, claim it and own it.

 

 

[diapereddaddy1922]

It's really hard to say for me. It depends on the day lol. Someday I have literally no control. Some days I have some control..... I was at the casino and felt like my bladder was going to explode while sitting at a poker table..... went into the bathroom and my diaper was soaked but still peed a good amount into the toilet while changing. Then yesterday in between changing went naked into the kitchen and peed all over the floor. I'd like to think my control is basically gone but always have that.... maybe it's not. Idk either way I can't be trusted without padding. When we go to the pool I don't wear a diaper and almost always have a puddle of pee under my pool chair

[Kaliborio]

I had slightly shaky but functionally full continence when I started.

I was conscious that my bladder control was significantly shakier by about 4 months in. I started wetting the bed around 9 months in. I became aware that I didn't have meaningful daytime wetting control around 11 to 12 months in; I wasn't checking before then.

I was voluntarily messing my diapers regularly starting around 9 months in. The first time I was absolutely sure that an instance of messing my diapers wasn't to some degree deliberate was about 15 months in. The point where my messing control was poor enough that it had become difficult to use the toilet was about 20–22 months in. The point where I basically could no longer use the toilet was about 30 months (2 and a half years) in.

[Little Sherri]

There is not box that describes my situation in this survey, either. I've been 3 years 24/7 but not really pursuing "untraining", other than that I pretty much only pee in diapers (I do #2 on the potty and doing that also results in some #1, otherwise I could say that I "only" pee in diapers...). Similar to what @oznldescribed, during the day, I've lost a lot of range but not much control. I suspect I've had the odd accident. Sometimes I can slip into a dribbling autopilot state, which I quite enjoy, but, I can end that anytime just by thinking about it too much. I do seem to have lost the ability to stop an event once it starts, if it is of any significance in terms of volume. 

At night, sometimes I wet the bed entirely unconsciously now (alcohol helps with that), and sometimes I wake up, get irritated, and allow it to start before drifting back to sleep. And sometimes I have "I'm peeing my pants" dreams that might be occurring at some nether-point between sleeping and waking, where I become sufficiently aware of the need, that I morph taking care of it into a dream. And a lot of the time my diaper seems no wetter when I wake up than it was when I went to bed. 

I hope to never have to leave diapers behind, but if I do,  I suspect I could do it during the day almost immediately, although with frequent bathroom breaks. At night... who knows? I'd probably wet the bed once in a while? Maybe that would extinguish if I started restricting fluids and setting an alarm to get up in the middle of the night to go, the kind of things my parents did when they were trying to extinguish my bedwetting as a kid. 

[Hannah YMS]

On 9/12/2022 at 8:13 AM, Dee Cee said:

I have been in and out of diapers for y e a r s , but in the last 3 ,I can say I need diapers , pretty much all the time my bladder is at the point , I will feel like I might need to pee , and right after that , I am dribbling , as I am heading out one of the 3 doors that lead outside , but the dribbling , has turned into sperting, and before I am out side , and got my shorts unzipped , about 80-99% of my pee is on my pants , and I get maybe a little 20- 1 % yet to release , so the front of my pants look like I just wet myself , and my bowels are just about as bad I’m lying on the sofa , and I feel a poop coming on , at that point , it’s all ready started , and buy the time I get upstairs, I have shit in my pants from the size of a baseball to a medium size honey doo Mellon , in my pants , so I can handle the wet shorts they dry pretty quick , but I smell like toddler , but for the poop , I just take 1 of these little green pills , that my wife takes every day 2-4 pills a day and she’s in other toilet every , maybe twice a day , but they just lock me up for like 3-4 days , then I will put on a fresh, cloth pin on flat trifold diaper , and a thick clothe soaker , then my pull on plastic pants , then shorts , jeans , bib shorts what ever I feel like to get the job done , and in a short time I have a massive bm , soft just form in the seat of my diaper , it’s not like clock work , far from it , but if my gut don’t feel like it , I could be in in for an hour or two , but if I sit on the toilet , my legs fall asleep , after about 10 minutes , and if I just push , it’s like I am trying to shit out my elbow , but I’m spent , so I have got it down if I want stay regular, every 3-4 days is my norm , but I get in a bulky cloth pin on diaper w/ stuffer , get that on nice and snug , and then my plastic pants , over that goes my baggy jeans , or what eve the day calls for , and it will just just slide out of me , no pushing or straining , but just and slow and before too long , I have a big giant semi soft bm that will fill my entire diapered area , and as I have started to just let it come out , them my bladder will join in , and my once dry clean diaper is a total mess , I have poop coming out , and just going up the back and a huge messy bulge in my soaked diaper , I Ike to stay in it for a few hours , as I will be filling it from time to time piss shit , but I’m just along for the ride, after a while and I feel safe to get cleaned up , then I do ! But this no chore , I just love everything about it , it’s has nothing to do with sex , but I just like to have a very dirty , and soaked diaper on once in a while , my wife knows about it , and she will help me out from time to time , I do all the clean up ,laundry , but she may sow a small  tear in my diaper once in a while , so my answer , I feel my incontinence , is just about complete ,  and we are happy with it , and the cost isn’t like , those who use disposable diapers , whew , but it’s been a long time coming , and I haven’t soiled any furniture in a long time , so I think I can say that I am incontinet , to satisfy my doctor ! 

 

 

Nice! Thank you for your response!