Kif

So, I'll quote myself and then elaborate: As far as time goes, I'd estimate maybe less than a week? Hard to tell when the time-between wet mornings is 1-2 days. I had a night where I woke up partially wet but that was it. I continued to wake up dry after that. It's hard for me to judge in your case because you've been going at this long enough I wouldn't be surprised if physical changes took place. That said, at least on the mental front this is what is important: The thought of bedwetting has to be uncomfortable, genuinely. The first time, it was emotionally triggering and I was already overwhelmed emotionally with other stuff. I had started transitioning, and diapers were somehow associated with pre-transition me...the feelings were complex and there was ultimately a feeling of 'finality' for one half of my life. I didn't start really reconnecting with it again until last year, it was a mess consciously and a complete upheaval unconsciously re-contextualizing myself / my identity. The second time, I was genuinely afraid it would affect the results of my surgery/healing. Despite the doctors stating it'd be fine, ofc I'd catastrophize and think bedwetting -> infection -> damage to neovag and/or death. Even if imagined, nothing like the threat of death to punch through to the subconscious. Remove anything that makes bedwetting tolerable, e.g. no fallbacks. Diapers are comfy and make bedwetting feel 'safer', so off they come at night. Typical precautions; avoid fluids, and especially avoid alcohol. This should help reduce the possibility of having enough volume to trigger wetting and whatever effect alcohol seems to have (seems to be pretty universal for folks to wet if untraining and imbibing the night before) Track wet mornings/nights so you can see your progress. This is to prevent yourself from thinking you're worse/better than you actually are. Journal, see what other mental/emotional hangups you have about leaving diapers, staying dry, losing sleep to make it happen, etc. But again, those are all mental game things. If you've physically progressed to a point where you actually cannot hold it during the day then I would expect at best you wake up a lot at night. If that happens, diapers or even cold sheets may become more appealing than losing sleep. The only thing I think you can really do at that point is try to get back more day control / ability to hold longer, and possibly add a bucket or something at your bedside to encourage peeing anywhere other than in bed or in diapers (sounds silly, but half-awake me can be too lazy to walk the fifteen feet to the bathroom, sustain the shock from the lights, pull down my pants, etc). Make your conscious life so focused on getting to the bathroom (or at least out of bed) that it sinks in subconsciously as you gain back physical strength (assuming that's possible).

I guess you could call me experienced with retraining? Somehow I managed to reach points of consistent bedwetting (at least 3-4 times per week for several weeks, progressively increasing), and then managed to completely reverse it. The first time happened after 2 months, and the other after 5. This also happened despite day control not really changing all that much. In either case, definitely nowhere near long enough to have reached that via physical mechanisms typically described by e.g. Kali, so I suspect it mostly (if not entirely) a matter of changing thought patterns/habits and freeing up emotional blockages so it could sink in faster. I was untraining both my bladder and bowels, journaled extensively (privately), involved hypnosis to reinforce changing my habits consciously, and otherwise really obsessing over it in both scenarios to help things really sink in. The longer attempt took longer, I think, because I had bigger emotional things to push through (not directly related to diapers, but tied to them) and also because I went into it knowing I could be going into gender-affirming surgery in less than a year (so not feeling I could really commit yet, but wanted to try anyways). The way I stopped in both cases was stopping wearing diapers cold-turkey and making a conscious effort to retrain during the day too. But, in addition to that there were strong notable emotional/mental circumstances for stopping. In the first, it was realizing I was trans and needing to focus on starting my transition. In the latter, it was getting my surgery date and needing to stop wherever I was at the time. That said, I did not leave either of those completely untouched. My urgency got worse after the first attempt and I developed noticeable post-void drip. After both I had at least one incident of waking up in the middle of wetting in my sleep. And after the second, I was leaking pee at times when laughing and experiencing "unpermitted" release of flatulence. It's hard to say what happened after surgery, but my bowel control has felt "spongy" and my urgency feels worse. So "successful" retraining? Mostly yeah, but also not exactly coming from actual incontinence or "fully successful" untraining. And while I've certainly not had any accidents and my control is 'fine', it definitely isn't what it was before. All I feel I can actually state factually is that maybe you can wet the bed without losing daytime continence in 2-5 months, and after 2-5 months reverse it.

You'll get there This stuff takes years. I'm not sure if you're actually over-focusing or not when you go (but I'm getting those vibes), so if you are I suggest once you start going immediately refocus your attention on something else. Otherwise, you'll still be giving things conscious attention and automation will become difficult. I did this without realizing it, due to my own impatience...But, it did eventually resolve on its own once the boredom set in month 3 or so. Good luck! Happy to hear you are trying to keep things discreet. But if I could inject another idea: If you had to choose between higher bulk and increased leaks, which would you think is more discrete? Lots of folks repeat "nobody notices", and that didn't sink in well for me especially at first. Eventually it did, but that took time and came with both mental and wardrobe changes. But, what did sink in was realizing I'd rather feel bulkier and more protected than risk leaking in public and becoming a biohazard. Noticed in a diaper? Sucks. Noticed in a leaking diaper? Even worse, and with far more tangible repercussions. So, I went bulkier. This had several knock-on effects: I changed my wardrobe to fit the diapers, rather than changing the diapers to fit the wardrobe. This gave me more confidence in my decision to wear diapers for several reasons: I was spending money on clothes I wouldn't be able to return (most likely). It's getting the pair of running shoes. For once, I was putting actions to intentions and actually making diapers front-and-center. It's building your routine around exercise rather than slotting it in 'whenever' I was free to select diapers based on pragmatic need rather than discretion: this helped me relax more and expend less mental energy on stuff down there this also helped me feel more responsible about my diapering; e.g. if somebody asked then my focus was on need rather than shame ("I need X to stay dry" rather than "Oh you noticed? I really hoped you wouldn't") All the above combined normalized it a lot more as "just underwear", which makes it more morally approachable too; as long as you aren't showing your underwear to people then you're probably fine. Diapers aren't a lot different, aside from the extra needs to contain waste and odor. Hope you find this helpful!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I'd like to conclude that his wife was okay, but this makes no mention of who posted that. Nor any mention of the fire. So we can't establish when the post was made relative to the fire. Sneaky sneaky. I guess you could assume it happened before the fire by assuming the postee found out about the adoption but the fire hadn't yet occurred or been conceived. But you could also assume this happened *after* the fire if you assume the postee didn't want to out their location by mentioning the fire. So, not seeing anything that leans this either way. Considering bystanders etc would be pure speculation at this point. BUT, what I am curious about is if you intend to make these characters meet at some point? Some kind of cross-over in a larger plot, rather than fan-service? That would be kinda cool, like in Love Across Dimensions etc.

Glad you're checking that out! I feel I can relate to this not-incontinence-but-also-not-normal thing. It's an awkward position to be in, but always better to check and be safe, rather than sorry. And in my case post-op, I'll still have to do PSA tests because the prostate stays in. But it's also kinda funny in a way! The Overton window is so shifted towards untraining that it's easy to forget sometimes that the average person would not be comfortable going to the bathroom as often as I do. It doesn't "raise alarms" for us until we realize we need diapers to do some kinds of work, for example. Whereas I think the average person would have raised hell way before then...It's such a strange position to be in.

Thanks! Yeah, this whole experience has just been tonnes of this. It feels frustrating to not be able to fully commit yet, but I feel my heart is in the right place for now. Agreed, I don't expect to gain/lose any ground here. Even in those 5 months there wasn't all that much gained physically (though, I did learn a lot mentally/emotionally). At least, this is a good opportunity to become familiar with my body and make sure it all works alright. Forgot to mention -- there was a new mental component that popped up. Having had surgery down there, I did develop a bit of ... fear ... to pee. Expecting pain, like when you sprain your ankle and after it has healed but you still expect pain if you put your weight on it despite there being none. Don't have any, thankfully. But, ofc more things to work on. I don't expect to get over that in the next month, nor for that to not be an issue after revision either...but there's always something to overcome mentally, heh.

So, I can confirm that post-op I definitely use nappies better >//////< Like...I've been chugging water and trying to leak. I've flooded many times (unintentionally at this point). And even been dumb and delayed changes when I probably shouldn't. But like...geezus, I didn't know Tena Ultimas could get this heavy and bulky. Wow. Pre-op with covers and liners I'd still leak in these things way before where I bulk to now. Coooould be how the padding works with the ... dongle ... cooooould be that I couldn't get as tight a fit as I thought with the ... package ... who the heck knows. But there's no doubt for me now that I'm pretty secure in these diapers now. Gradually building that confidence up again, it's really really nice! ❤️ Oh! And sensation-wise it's totally fine. I had some small nerve pain pop up again on a suture due to pressure on the area, but that went away same-day and hasn't come back. Otherwise, no pain or other issues so far. Will keep monitoring, but overall I'm pleased with how things work down there and how healing has gone. Flow feels natural and easy, skin condition looks great. All that said... Do I want to continue untraining with such vigor in what would be probably a month before a followup surgery/revision? Eh, yes and no. I'll yes give it the best chance I can give it, to really put things to the test...but no I won't expect results. Doesn't matter either way though ... I'm happy! Thanks Jonbearab! It takes sooo much patience lol, I'm just glad to be past the first big hurdle and can resume 24/7 at least again. Will have to test it again shortly, but overall I'm happy. Glad you're enjoying these updates, thanks for reading! ❤️

Yay! Happy to see another journey here. Thanks for having the courage to come out and share all this. I vibe a lot with this. I don't understand it, stopped understanding it, and didn't really quite get the validity of those feelings until I experienced dysphoria. So yeah, they're valid. Some of us just...need this. Doesn't have to be 'real' physical need, and if it's as simple as wearing different clothes then heck. I'd take that over medication and surgery any day! Geez, are you me? Seriously, same thing...I didn't realize until late that going to the bathroom as frequently as I did was...not average Then again, the average person probably is hypersensitive to even the slightest difference in toileting habits whereas I didn't care as much, so... Yep! Am quite familiar with this stage. Haven't yet moved past it, had to take a hiatus. But yeah it lines up experience-wise. I was in a very similar position there too...My hubby also was super accepting and knew I wanted to go 24/7 but hadn't known it was for untraining reasons. I eventually told him and he was fine with it...but might be worth bringing it up sooner rather than later. I regret not saying it sooner myself, but that's my relationship / my opinion. There's a thread here by Enthusi that discusses spasms...from what I could tell, they were physically very painful. You might check that out! Better late than never! It's surprising how these things hide/lurk. Congrats on opening up to yourself! You mentioned your partner "wouldn't help" -- did that mean specifically being willing to wake you up? Or are they just a super light sleeper? It's great you respect their wishes, I'm curious if you two have discussed you wearing a vibrating watch to see if that'll work for both of you? Those can be really quiet, and could work if you are sharing a bed. But ofc, I strongly recommend you sleep on a bed pad if you don't already; you'll at some point leak at night and it'll be better for both y'all if you can just silently swap out the bedpad. BUT, I'm curious what other stuff you're doing to setup yourself for success. I pondered having a watch like that, got one, and didn't use it ultimately. The biggest barriers for me were realizing I needed to literally practice wetting in sleeping positions until I was comfortable with it, which helped to confirm for me consciously that I had enough protection at night (at first I didn't...and I switched to cloth to help with that). These stages here summarize what I went through in more detail.

I had half of one I guess? Woke up mid-pee. But, that was it! Kinda...I feel pretty mixed about it. While not as severe, I feel I relate to those mixed feelings Brian talked about in his thread. Part of me is aware that now I absolutely have to get to the bathroom every hour and genuinely feels uncomfortable going into town without at least some kind of pad just in case...and part of me worries it's "just in my head" and all wishful thinking. I asked the docs and they weren't super concerned about it so eh? Either way, won't matter long-term anyway so that helps me to move past it. I agree with this. Though...for me it never came from the shaft, it felt deeper inside. I'd try to deliberately clench and shake it out pre-op, but the dribble would still happen at times...maybe I was in such a habit of relaxing the outer one that the inner one would respond and I wouldn't realize it (as the inner one doesn't consciously respond afik, only the outer one). Like, maybe I'd laugh and it'd all relax...some would enter the urethra without realizing it...I'd clench up again...and later find that end up in my undies with no recollection of how. I dunno, just throwing stuff at the wall haha! Thanks! You too!

I haven't gone long enough to say when for myself. But, what I can say is that 6 months is for-sure not long enough at last physically. I untrained to the point of bedwetting every other night, and not noticing when I had gone a lot of the time during the day. But, I was able to retrain within a month because I *had to* for my gender confirmation surgery -- one of those things that cuts through consciously and subconsciously. Had me thinking that at least the first 6 months were mostly habitual / in-my-head, since I was able to break the habit by popping into undies cold-turkey. Though, I'm not sure if I was fully physically unaffected either. Before surgery I definitely had that post-void dribble you have in the polls, and I would leak small amounts when laughing (enough that I'd want to change). And since the surgery, that has arguably gotten worse, I suspect due to my urethra shortening up. And surprisingly, my bowel control has also felt a bit weak too (I haven't had issues with accidents, but I feel a lot less confident about it than before). So...guess I'll report back after a few years maybe? But my data point might be slightly out of normal since I'm maybe not 100% continent going into this again...so take it with a grain of salt.

So today we learned a lesson! Grab your whiteboards and write down your answer for this question, class: What is the best thing to keep nearby when drying out? Is it... A) Just your hands B) Absorbent Cloth and Babywipes C) Just Babywipes The answer is ... B! Great job for those of you who go it right! But guess who was a silly-head and only had babywipes on hand? And maybe had to use her hand and a babywipe to prevent pee from going eeeeverywhere? ? *cough* Anyway, what a way to trial getting back on the wagon! I'm kinda-sorta-mostly going 24/7 again. But, I say it's a trial because I have to go under again in a month...things are healed up, but they're about to get all slicey-dicey again. Oh well. But, I figured it'd be a great way to check that my flow feels normal and start seeing how my skin feels while staying progressively longer in (wet) diapers. If any issues pop up, I'll know about it and could bring it up with the surgeon. I'll try to post more often this time around too. Weekly if I can find it, or more...was worried about being spammy before, but I see now that was a silly thought. If you have feedback on my style, it's welcome! Might experiment with a story-like style for fun, we'll see. Anyway happy Thursday or whenever it is wherever you are... uhm...*cough* class dismissed I guess! ?

I can relate to repeating ideas like this to yourself. Hypnosis. Affirmations. CBT. They're just enforcing habits and letting you change how you view yourself. Interesting choice of words -- how you started this with "I am a bedwetter" and then added the daytime stuff. Do you think that will change? The order of those words? Do you keep a private journal? If you want my advice...I recommend it. It has certainly surprised me how things change...and how they don't. And in subtle ways, in both cases. Put all this in perspective, for me.

Same here. At some point after the initial wetting how it feels just doesn't change much. So generally I've stuck with time-based changes. Only exception is when I can feel my butt is wet. But, I try to avoid this as generally this is when a leak can occur so I try to plan changes before that.

My condolences! Hmmm I wonder if maybe one of those urine specific cleaners with enzymes would help? But, aaaaaa still sucks haha

Thanks for sharing, Brian! (going to copy from PMs a bit) I can relate a lot those struggles with bodily autonomy and people in authority and they suck a lot. It takes courage to share that story, and I'm glad you aren't in that situation anymore at least with those people. But I guess having to fight with the system to get coverage / help was at least productive in that sense rather than just enduring those horrible people. Also, it's really cool to see it from a perspective like yours -- somebody that had desires to be in diapers before becoming incontinent, and then struggling with and accepting those feelings even in the face of pragmatic continence issues (not through untraining). It goes to show how important it is to be able to share that here, and how diversity of experiences and how incon desires don't just include folks like me with good-enough continence (and deliberately working to lessen or remove that) but also folks that had those desires but had to deal with incontinence through no deliberate effort on their part. It's interesting how despite those two very different paths, the emotions and struggles with acceptance, guilt, coping, etc. are so strikingly similar. Anyway, again thanks for sharing!

Anywhere from 4-5 for me. Usually change in the morning, lunch, dinner/end of workday, and before bed. Sometimes one more time as needed, or if want to be in a fresh one for exercise (but I usually don't, and just time exercise an hour or so before a change).

I see what this is going for...and it's "nice"...however in my opinion personally I'd rather have something directly worded, visually bulleted, and ultimately very clear on what the boundaries are because that is what it would take for me to feel protected in this community. In paragraph form it's easy to miss important points and glaze over it. And as worded now, it's also vague and indirect on what exactly crosses the line; this makes the boundaries fuzzy, which both encourages pushing those boundaries and discourages defending boundaries (because there are none, or vaguely some). Overall it comes across as "nice" to me, but with little-to-no backing behind it. In a different context, maybe this would be appropriate. Like, when starting a new community and not yet being sure what the boundaries are. However, this isn't a new community and the boundaries have been made clear by example especially recently. Given the size of the community and recent events here it feels very out of touch and insufficient to provide the protection I personally would desire here. I felt very unsafe after the behavior of that mod and several members of the larger community on this forum, and would rather hop behind something that I feel protects me. And that ain't it. I would love to suggest maybe part of that could be included as an introduction to seem more friendly...but in my opinion, I feel it'd come across as too soft. Being a member of this community, I already know what people think of me; I don't want rules that make others feel welcome to trample on me, I want clear boundaries that protect me from the enemies I already know. And, I can assume that if I feel safe then so will the other people in the community and that it'll be worth my while to stick around rather than feel I'm possibly joining a ghost town.

Can I offer hugs, for better or worse? Pain down there sucks big time.

I like better how this is worded too, thank you!

Congrats, this sounds like a super exciting time for you! I'm trying to think of questions to ask, but really am just happy to see you're doing so well -- so, congrats! ❤️

I'm sorry for your loss, Eddie. I offer virtual internet hugs if you want them, and I hope it helps you get through today and the ones that follow. ❤️

Thought I'd give a small update, for those wondering where I'm at with things. TL;DR is that I'm still planning to untrain, but it'll be awhile yet before I can really go about it. Maybe a few more months or so. But, I'm healthy and fine. ❤️ Surgery (penile-inversion vaginoplasty) was some time ago, I won't be specific how long or where ofc for privacy reasons. But, the results have been good! Have literally never been happier, and never cried so many happy tears. ?❤️ I tried diapers several times while recovering. Fun fact, the standing leak guards sit *perfectly* in the painful suture lines the surgery gives you! Also, even when that heals there's still too much nerve stimulation down there for anything to feel okay touching you down there (undies, pads, diapers, etc). And with discharge in the beginning, pads just work better at first. That said, somewhat surprisingly diapers eventually become more comfortable than undies+pads as you recover because they're more...poofy!...so they don't touch stuff as much. But, even on my worse days if I wasn't naked was half-naked laying on an open diaper for comfort. There were some changes to my functioning down there...I'm investigating to make sure it's not a real problem. So far mostly minor, haven't had any accidents. But yes, urinary urgency is definitely stronger than before. And to my surprise my bowel control feels...spongy....Like I can't quite close it all the way. All this culminating in me in feeling more comfortable in diapers than not, especially when walking around town, despite having had no accidents so far. I'm never far from a toilet at home, so my range outside the house is untested...and I'm not interested in finding the failure point right now, since I still have more healing to do. ? Speaking of, I'm basically in diapers again 24/7 now...I'm just not using them 24/7...more on that in a bit. Regardless, the comfort helps a *lot* with recovery, and with what I've been through has brought out my Little side more again (being *ahem* helpless, in pain, and bed/couch bound will do that). I hadn't realized *how much* I'd suppressed that part of me since transitioning, and frankly even while untraining. I guess part of me was super confused and unsure of how that tied into my feelings when transitioning. Plus, most of my Little stuff was all boy-mode stuff so that proooobably did not help. Anyway, many emotional cries later I'm feeling a lot more at peace with my Little side and I've realized that just because I'm untraining doesn't mean I can't be little sometimes -- or that because I'm untraining that I'm expected to be Little all the time. They are related but also independent, and that is 100% a-okay! And now, I have some awesome cute babygirl stuff that makes me very happy ❤️ Oh, and for those wondering yes I do wet my diapers at this point but as I'm still healing I generally don't stay wet more than 2 hours max before I hop in the shower to clean and then dry off. I time them to my dialations, and a quick wipe off has worked completely fine. Portable fans are great for drying off by the way! And no way am I going to mess yet. Anyway, just wanted to pop in and let y'all know I'm happy and healthy! And, when I can (hopefully in a few more months), really look forward to returning to untraining again. I think about it a *lot*, it is still definitely there and strong as it was pre-op. Some things never change I guess! ?

That's fantastic! Congratulations! Bet that feels great, and I'm sure there are more to come...