Is late potty training becoming the norm in society

[Sunfoxx]

I have noticed something similar for a while with a lot of parents using strollers for children who seem way too big to be using them. While it always looks a little strange to me I do wonder if the child in the stroller has some sort of condition, something that isn't always immediately obvious, or is just really tall for their age.

 

I've done a little reading on this and some parents do seem to practice these sorts of things for their convenience more so than the child's well-being, which is terrible if true. However when I do see such things I prefer to err on the side of caution and assume that there is a valid reason for the child being in a stroller or in a diaper. I can't really imagine how having your child in a diaper is in any way more convenient than them just using the bathroom on their own.

[Joey_AB_DL]

If you want to see kids too old in strollers, go to a Disney Park.    It is absolutely a matter of convenience for them.   Kids get tired, easier to run them around when they pass out of are unwilling to walk.   All that Disney swag needs to be carried.   However, for those without strollers, it is annoying.   I have been run over so many times, and the strollers make an already overcrowded park much worse.

That said, I would love to be pushed around in a stroller at Disney, so jealous!! LOL

And yes, you see kids above toddler age in diapers and pull ups there too, those lines are long!

Joey

[spark]

12 hours ago, Joey_AB_DL said:

If you want to see kids too old in strollers, go to a Disney Park.    It is absolutely a matter of convenience for them.   Kids get tired, easier to run them around when they pass out of are unwilling to walk.   All that Disney swag needs to be carried.   However, for those without strollers, it is annoying.   I have been run over so many times, and the strollers make an already overcrowded park much worse.

That said, I would love to be pushed around in a stroller at Disney, so jealous!! LOL

And yes, you see kids above toddler age in diapers and pull ups there too, those lines are long!

Joey

I've always wondered about using strollers in crowded areas just to keep kids close.   I think there are parents who use strollers with older kids just to keep them close by.

[MinnesotaWriter]

There are a couple of easy explanations.

The first involves modern disposable diaper companies and the fact that they are not incentivized to help with potty training.

The companies that make baby diapers, Kimberly-Clark and Procter and Gamble, have no incentive to make potty training easier for parents.

There is constant pressure from shareholders for companies to increase their profits year over year (Why the infinite growth model of capitalism is horrible for an environment with finite resources is a lengthy discussion for a whole other thread, but I digress). 

One easy way to do so is to increase the number of people using their products. And if kids are in diapers longer and longer, you have more customers. Modern disposables are so comfortable that kids don't get the same signals from having accidents in them as they would from cloth diapers, and that no doubt plays a role in delaying potty training. If wetting your pants isn't uncomfortable, why bother with learning to go to the toilet?

Disposable training pants are an example of a product that pretends to be making potty training easier, but in reality, probably does a lot more to extend it. Parents would be better off either skipping training pants altogether in many circumstances, or switching over to cloth ones. That isn't to say that there aren't valid uses for disposable training pants, but most parents would be better off not primarily using them for toilet training.

The push to "wait until the child is ready" has really gotten misconstrued as well. It's not about waiting until the child wants to toilet train, but waiting until they have the physical ability to do so. If a three-year-old doesn't want to go to the potty and would rather pee in their comfortable disposable diaper, they still need to be toilet trained, so long as there isn't any medical reason preventing it. There are plenty of skills that kids simply have to learn to function in society, and it's up to parents to give children those skills whether or not the child wants to learn it at the moment.

But it's safe to say that "Big Diaper," if we want to go with that moniker, shares some blame for pushing that wait for the child approach as well.

---

Beyond the diaper companies, you have some other factors. You have more dual-income households, with parents needing to work multiple jobs to get by. With both parents working, it can be more difficult to deal with toilet training. While a fully potty-trained child is more convenient to care for than one that isn't, the process of toilet training is far from convenient.

 

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Then there is consumer credit. This separates the time of payment from the time of purchase so the expense is not felt. If parents knew how much they were paying for the convenience of not potty training each time they purchased a bigs of diaper and realized the amount of money that was going out with the garbage, that would incentivise potty training because it would be immediately felt

[rusty pins]

10 hours ago, MinnesotaWriter said:

There are a couple of easy explanations.

The first involves modern disposable diaper companies and the fact that they are not incentivized to help with potty training.

The companies that make baby diapers, Kimberly-Clark and Procter and Gamble, have no incentive to make potty training easier for parents.

There is constant pressure from shareholders for companies to increase their profits year over year (Why the infinite growth model of capitalism is horrible for an environment with finite resources is a lengthy discussion for a whole other thread, but I digress). 

One easy way to do so is to increase the number of people using their products. And if kids are in diapers longer and longer, you have more customers. Modern disposables are so comfortable that kids don't get the same signals from having accidents in them as they would from cloth diapers, and that no doubt plays a role in delaying potty training. If wetting your pants isn't uncomfortable, why bother with learning to go to the toilet?

Disposable training pants are an example of a product that pretends to be making potty training easier, but in reality, probably does a lot more to extend it. Parents would be better off either skipping training pants altogether in many circumstances, or switching over to cloth ones. That isn't to say that there aren't valid uses for disposable training pants, but most parents would be better off not primarily using them for toilet training.

The push to "wait until the child is ready" has really gotten misconstrued as well. It's not about waiting until the child wants to toilet train, but waiting until they have the physical ability to do so. If a three-year-old doesn't want to go to the potty and would rather pee in their comfortable disposable diaper, they still need to be toilet trained, so long as there isn't any medical reason preventing it. There are plenty of skills that kids simply have to learn to function in society, and it's up to parents to give children those skills whether or not the child wants to learn it at the moment.

But it's safe to say that "Big Diaper," if we want to go with that moniker, shares some blame for pushing that wait for the child approach as well.

---

Beyond the diaper companies, you have some other factors. You have more dual-income households, with parents needing to work multiple jobs to get by. With both parents working, it can be more difficult to deal with toilet training. While a fully potty-trained child is more convenient to care for than one that isn't, the process of toilet training is far from convenient.

 

BRAVO!  I have been saying this for years!  It's not the kid's decision to want to stay in diapers.  If you are a parent, you have to parent your kids and be the one in control.  You wouldn't let your 6 year old get in the driver's seat of your car and drive it around town.  You wouldn't let your 8 year old kid go to the neighborhood bar and drink beer or shots of whisky!  Why, then would you leave it up to the kid to decide for themselves that they just want to stay in diapers?  Parents need to follow parenting.  Unfortunately there are some misguided people even on this site who believe if a kid wants to stay in diapers and not be potty trained, it should be the choice of the kid.  WRONG!  Kids are too young at age 5, 7 and even 10 or 12 to know what is best for them which is one reason why a person is not considered an adult until age 18.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

1 hour ago, rusty pins said:

BRAVO!  I have been saying this for years!  It's not the kid's decision to want to stay in diapers.  If you are a parent, you have to parent your kids and be the one in control.  You wouldn't let your 6 year old get in the driver's seat of your car and drive it around town.  You wouldn't let your 8 year old kid go to the neighborhood bar and drink beer or shots of whisky!  Why, then would you leave it up to the kid to decide for themselves that they just want to stay in diapers?  Parents need to follow parenting.  Unfortunately there are some misguided people even on this site who believe if a kid wants to stay in diapers and not be potty trained, it should be the choice of the kid.  WRONG!  Kids are too young at age 5, 7 and even 10 or 12 to know what is best for them which is one reason why a person is not considered an adult until age 18.

That is not the companies' fault. They just tend to the market, No market, no product. That is, first the parents' fault. They make the final decision because they are in situ; i.e. on the spot. They get (dis)educated to the by the Intellectual Establishment , who tell them  "Oh: Don't be so hard-ass". It goes with banning dodge-ball and the "participation trophy" although, I can see some cause for that. Cripes; the kid got his ass out from behind the screen to actuall GO DO SOMETHING: That IS an accomplishment. A few years back, on Facebook the meme was some kids finding a book in the street and looking at it quizzically. I captioned it with "Where's 'OK' and 'Cancel'?"), as well as the "you're so special" phony self-esteem syndrome. The defining characteristic of self-esteem is that it is EARNED by accomplishment. It cannot be given or provided despite all the current psychobabble. Everyone knows how fake that is. Besides which, current measure of self-esteem correlate with criminal behavior (Holy Stainless Steel Rat; Batman!)

[Kawaharu]

Then what about special needs kids like those who have Autism, Down Syndrome, Intellectual disability, or any physical, medical, or Mental disabilities? I have seen disabled kids and teens still in diapers and some are not even potty trained but kept in diapers due to their disability. We say potty training late is very bad for kids on here but we don't carve out an exception for kids/teens who have some kind of disability. I'll bet we have several autistic folks on here who were kept in diapers as a kid and now in adulthood. I wonder if the Autistic folks can chime in on this as well. 

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

The fact that this discussion did NOT pertain to disabled kids should have been quite apparent in the contex, specifically reference to "late" potty training, implying that otherwise was an option and that what was being done was voluntarily abnormal. Also this thread is in the "Lifestyle" section and therefore voluntary. It was quite apparent to me, anyway and I am not a 200 IQ genius

[rusty pins]

5 hours ago, Little BabyDoll Christine said:

That is not the companies' fault. They just tend to the market, No market, no product. That is, first the parents' fault. They make the final decision because they are in situ; i.e. on the spot. They get (dis)educated to the by the Intellectual Establishment , who tell them  "Oh: Don't be so hard-ass". It goes with banning dodge-ball and the "participation trophy" although, I can see some cause for that. Cripes; the kid got his ass out from behind the screen to actuall GO DO SOMETHING: That IS an accomplishment. A few years back, on Facebook the meme was some kids finding a book in the street and looking at it quizzically. I captioned it with "Where's 'OK' and 'Cancel'?"), as well as the "you're so special" phony self-esteem syndrome. The defining characteristic of self-esteem is that it is EARNED by accomplishment. It cannot be given or provided despite all the current psychobabble. Everyone knows how fake that is. Besides which, current measure of self-esteem correlate with criminal behavior (Holy Stainless Steel Rat; Batman!)

To clarify, it is not the fault of the company.  It's the fault of the parents.  The company sees an opportunity and rolls with it to make more profits.  Naturally they aren't going to do anything that might cause a loss of revenue.  They may not really encourage it too much (some do) but they won't discourage older kids in diapers and pull ups either.

2 hours ago, Kawaharu said:

Then what about special needs kids like those who have Autism, Down Syndrome, Intellectual disability, or any physical, medical, or Mental disabilities? I have seen disabled kids and teens still in diapers and some are not even potty trained but kept in diapers due to their disability. We say potty training late is very bad for kids on here but we don't carve out an exception for kids/teens who have some kind of disability. I'll bet we have several autistic folks on here who were kept in diapers as a kid and now in adulthood. I wonder if the Autistic folks can chime in on this as well. 

OMG!  I almost didn't want to dignify this with a reply.  WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DISABLED KIDS OR THOSE WITH MEDICAL ISSUES HERE!  No offense but every thread like this someone has to bring up disabled kids or people.  We are talking about normal kids and idiot parents who either are too lazy to potty train their kids, wait until way after normal potty training time,  follow some nut job on the internet who says it should be up to the child when they want to potty train, or let the kid decide if they just want to stay in diapers instead of learning to use the toilet.  That is what the subject of this topic is about.

2 hours ago, Little BabyDoll Christine said:

The fact that this discussion did NOT pertain to disabled kids should have been quite apparent in the contex, specifically reference to "late" potty training, implying that otherwise was an option and that what was being done was voluntarily abnormal. Also this thread is in the "Lifestyle" section and therefore voluntary. It was quite apparent to me, anyway and I am not a 200 IQ genius

Hear Hear!

[ppdude]

I was a lazy parent until it became obvious that the kid(s) were holding their pee and dumping it in one big flood, which leaked all over everything including the floor. What the hell -- potty time. Potty's a lot less work and aggravation than the constant diaper changing. Kids are tough on diapers.

 

[spark]

A lot is going on in this discussion, and it's ping-ponging everywhere.    I don't think the linked articles are proof that there is an epidemic of otherwise normal five-year-olds who are not potty trained and have to wear diapers to school.

Kids having toileting problems at school is not a new thing, but it is probably more common now than it ever has been.  My grandma was a 4th-grade teacher in rural Wisconsin a very long time ago (like A Christmas Story era).  She told the story about a student who had cleaned out a silo and hadn't bathed.  He had distinctive odor and she assumed that the kid had a load in his pants.   If you teach in a farming community, and you assume that the 4th grader pooped his pants rather than farm odor, it wasn't unheard of for a kid to poop their pants at school.

I think the age that it's acceptable for a kid to still be in diapers is getting older.   There are still kids who being potty trained by their 2nd birthday, but it's no longer rare for 4-year-olds  to still be in diapers.  There is a huge gap.  There are ton of reasons.

The parents not being able to parent is something that I've noticed, and I'm not sure what is at play there.  It would shock you how many kids just don't go to school, and the parents aren't able to get them to school.   I talk to these parents and they seem to care.    Part of me wants to tell the parent, "You've tried nothing, and it hasn't worked."

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

If there was not something going on, and this is normal, would not the size8 have been around longer since the market would be ther all the time? Follow the money

[spark]

3 hours ago, Little BabyDoll Christine said:

If there was not something going on, and this is normal, would not the size8 have been around longer since the market would be ther all the time? Follow the money

AFAIK, Size 7 was a bit of a failure.  I think you can find it at Amazon, but not at Safeway.

FTR- have you tried to find briefs (diapers) at a drugstore lately?    Last summer, I did a long trip and needed a restock.  I was in Seattle and went to Target and failed.   Crappy Pull-ups that would have failed.  I found a Walgreens that had some thin diapers that were awful but were better than Pull-ups I had (which were better than sucky one I could buy from Target.

[ValentinesStuff]

9 hours ago, spark said:

AFAIK, Size 7 was a bit of a failure.  I think you can find it at Amazon, but not at Safeway.

FTR- have you tried to find briefs (diapers) at a drugstore lately?    Last summer, I did a long trip and needed a restock.  I was in Seattle and went to Target and failed.   Crappy Pull-ups that would have failed.  I found a Walgreens that had some thin diapers that were awful but were better than Pull-ups I had (which were better than sucky one I could buy from Target.

Walmart carries Size 8 baby diapers. They also have a decent sized area of adult product, although I haven't looked at exactly what they are.

 

Many years, 20ish, I went to a local medical supply store looking for adult diapers. When I couldn't find any, I asked about them. The clerk told me they didn't carry them any more because they couldn't compete with online and mail retailers. This was very early in online sales.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

This might not be as new as we think. Throw-Aways have come to be almost exactly sized. Real Diapers, either flats or prefolds, but especially flats could acommodate up to 4 year olds and many who were daytime dry at age 3 were still diapered at night to age 4-1/2 and this was considered normal. It was the rubber panties that were more closely sized based on weight and were usually S, M, L, XL and Super. Occasionally there were Newborn (NB) in the 1960's in much earlier times that was usually only 3 S, M. L, and super For 4-1/2 to 6. extensions were put on the sides of prefolds. If you were expecting long-term use. You would use flats up to age 5 then move to some homemade diapers thereafter (which is the origin of the BabyDoll diaper: Good to age 10) and the pre-1955 rubber panties were much fuller cut than later ones and could acommodate triple diapering or a double proto-BabyDoll

The point being that we could have had late potty training in the cloth diaper era and it really would not have shown that well, but people did talk about it then, too

Now, I have a question about finding diapers at drug stores. For me, a drug store is where they sell musical instruments

[spark]

1 hour ago, ValentinesStuff said:

Many years, 20ish, I went to a local medical supply store looking for adult diapers. When I couldn't find any, I asked about them. The clerk told me they didn't carry them any more because they couldn't compete with online and mail retailers. This was very early in online sales.

Last year I went on a two-week vacation where I took a train from Miami to Seattle and then the ferry from Bellingham to Juneau and then ended up in Fairbanks.   I figured that would need at least 20 diapers to get through, which takes a lot of space.   I figured I'd buy some in Seattle because I had two nights in Seattle.

Target only sold Pull-ups, which I assume were junk.   I know that I can't wear Pull-ups unless I'm running to the bathroom all the time.  I went to a Walgreens and found some briefs, but they were the cheapest piece of junk I could imagine.  It was literally just the padding with two extended tabs that I could tighten around my waist.  Not a good selection at all.  

I don't go to Walmart unless I have to, and when I do I just go straight to what I'm looking.  I know you can order size 8 from Amazon

[Kawaharu]

21 hours ago, rusty pins said:

To clarify, it is not the fault of the company.  It's the fault of the parents.  The company sees an opportunity and rolls with it to make more profits.  Naturally they aren't going to do anything that might cause a loss of revenue.  They may not really encourage it too much (some do) but they won't discourage older kids in diapers and pull ups either.

But then follow the money and see why Diaper companies are pushing out diapers geared more toward Kids and teens. Have you seen what diaper companies are making for Kids and Teens these days., it would surprise you.

19 hours ago, spark said:

I think the age that it's acceptable for a kid to still be in diapers is getting older.   There are still kids who being potty trained by their 2nd birthday, but it's no longer rare for 4-year-olds  to still be in diapers.  There is a huge gap.  There are ton of reasons.

I do believe that the age of the kid still in diapers is becoming more acceptable over time. It may be because parents have two incomes and have two to 3 jobs. On top of that, I do think this generation is more accepting than the previous generations and the current generation is in they are more accepting of kids in diapers. Even in this generation, they are more open and accepting of kids in diapers longer before they are potty trained.

[spark]

59 minutes ago, Kawaharu said:

But then follow the money and see why Diaper companies are pushing out diapers geared more toward Kids and teens. Have you seen what diaper companies are making for Kids and Teens these days., it would surprise you.

I do believe that the age of the kid still in diapers is becoming more acceptable over time. It may be because parents have two incomes and have two to 3 jobs. On top of that, I do think this generation is more accepting than the previous generations and the current generation is in they are more accepting of kids in diapers. Even in this generation, they are more open and accepting of kids in diapers longer before they are potty trained.

I'm kind of curious how kids who were between two and three back in March 2020.  I'm sure many parents did use that opportunity to potty train their child, but there wasn't any social incentive to do it.  I'm sure some just kept them in diapers.

There is no question that disposable diapers is responsible for some of the rise, and then the introduction of Pull-ups has played another role.  Pull-ups means the child can still use the potty but doesn't risk peeing their pants.  I know from firsthand experience, if you padding underneath me, I'm going to use it.

[Kawaharu]

1 hour ago, spark said:

I'm kind of curious how kids who were between two and three back in March 2020.  I'm sure many parents did use that opportunity to potty train their child, but there wasn't any social incentive to do it.  I'm sure some just kept them in diapers.

There is no question that disposable diapers is responsible for some of the rise, and then the introduction of Pull-ups has played another role.  Pull-ups means the child can still use the potty but doesn't risk peeing their pants.  I know from firsthand experience, if you padding underneath me, I'm going to use it.

If you factor in the COVID crazy era, then it would make sense why kids are being potty trained later and later.

[rusty pins]

Seems to me during Covid, parents furloughed from work, out of a job or staying home would have a lot more opportunity to potty train their kids than if they were working all day.  I'd think being off work and short on money would be an incentive to potty train kids to save the expense of buying diapers.

[FretaBWet]

@rusty pins As a parent, I can tell you that makes sense. As a parent, I can tell you that unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and you have a healthy trust fund, potty training would be a priority so money could be spent on essentials like food, a reliable car so you can get to work and maybe even a mortgage.

Hugs,

Freta

[spark]

5 minutes ago, FretaBWet said:

@rusty pins As a parent, I can tell you that makes sense. As a parent, I can tell you that unless you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and you have a healthy trust fund, potty training would be a priority so money could be spent on essentials like food, a reliable car so you can get to work and maybe even a mortgage.

Hugs,

Freta

As a teacher, I can attest that Covid regression bubble is a thing.   My 9th graders all seemed to be so young in 2021, almost like they were still in Elementary school.  They were not even close to being ready for high school.   I keep thinking that it will get better, but each year it gets worse.  Their social maturation is not growing at the same rate.  The 9th graders last year were less mature than 2021, and this year is like having 6th graders.   My friend is a 3rd grade teacher and he says that his group is very immature. 

I don't know what that means for the potty training, but I suspect that's also happening.  Part of it is that these parents didn't learn to say no to their kids, so I don't want to is a good enough reason for a lot of children right now.   

I'm not sure about any of you, but I was never given that privilege growing up.  If I said, "I don't want to."  My dad would, "It doesn't matter, you're doing it anyway."

[Personalias]

22 minutes ago, spark said:

As a teacher, I can attest that Covid regression bubble is a thing.   My 9th graders all seemed to be so young in 2021, almost like they were still in Elementary school.  They were not even close to being ready for high school.   I keep thinking that it will get better, but each year it gets worse.  Their social maturation is not growing at the same rate.  The 9th graders last year were less mature than 2021, and this year is like having 6th graders.   My friend is a 3rd grade teacher and he says that his group is very immature. 

I don't know what that means for the potty training, but I suspect that's also happening.  Part of it is that these parents didn't learn to say no to their kids, so I don't want to is a good enough reason for a lot of children right now.   

I'm not sure about any of you, but I was never given that privilege growing up.  If I said, "I don't want to."  My dad would, "It doesn't matter, you're doing it anyway."

I'll throw in, that I don't think it's just entitled or bad parents.  I think it's highly unlikely that an entire generation didn't learn to parent correctly.  It's a symptom, but it's reductive and not the cause. 

I think part of it is that people have less *time* to parent, unfortunately.  Everyone is always working and struggling and exhausted so the buck gets passed and the can gets kicked down the road.  Responsibilities at work keeps going up but not pay.  Time for job keeps increasing. Literally everything else gets cut, including teaching basic with kids.  It's hard to raise someone up when you're barely keeping your head above water.

That's not an excuse or a pardon. It's an analysis.

Otherwise it's saying that Boomers and Gen-X somehow raised a generation of adults who don't know how to survive and parent and that's ruining Gen Alpha etc.

So who's the fuckup?  The current generation of parents or the generation that raised them?  

Or maybe, just maybe, outside forces have interfered and made life in general more difficult for everybody, and what's going on here is another symptom.
 

[FretaBWet]

I can't argue about a lack of maturity in schools as I'm not a teacher. If this is true my theory is it's due to the time lost when schools were shut down because a lot of socialization is learned through going to school. I think social media is probably even more to blame for it. Even among adults I've never seen such immaturity and plain stupidity. The simplest answer for why they are making bigger diapers is because so many children are obese. Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct answer.

Hugs,

Freta