My Untraining Journey (Trans, Pre-to-Post Op)

[deewet]

So what's the difference between drippling or wetting a pad and your pants or wetting a diaper?

I would say nothing but a dry pants, so go for the better protection and change it as you would the pad and you are good to go

[Kif]

7 hours ago, deewet said:

So what's the difference between drippling or wetting a pad and your pants or wetting a diaper?

I would say nothing but a dry pants, so go for the better protection and change it as you would the pad and you are good to go

Cost, mostly. And healing.

I have to change the pad as much as diapers, but they cost lots less and for what they do (especially in the beginning with bloody icky discharge) are efficient for how little padding they have compared to full diapers. 

Secondary reason is to discourage wetting...Like, I definitely *needed* diaper-level protection last night and I think that was fine...but otherwise during recovery I want to try and keep the stitches and area dry and clean as I can. 

Generally once the stitches fall out, though, I switch back to diapers because at that point it's generally been okay to wet. ?

[Hannah YMS]

On 6/14/2022 at 2:47 PM, Kif said:

So I'm pretty sure I have stress incon at this point...

I haven't been wearing diapers since this second surgery...I've been in big girl undies and pads to contain discharge etc.

Last evening, I had a particularly fun night with friends online. I laughed a lot throughout, but I noticed that I seemed to be unintentionally leaking pee.

I tried to hold it back because I had zero intentions to wet...For one thing, I'm fresh out of another surgery and need to keep the stitches clean. For another, while the pads are decent they cannot handle a full wetting nor do they have leak guards; I'd be risking getting my clothes and the couch wet.

Unfortunately, despite these intentions, after one particularly funny moment I couldn't stop what felt like quite a lot of pee leaking. It wasn't like the floodgates opened and all let loose, it was more like heavy spurts that I couldn't stop. Feeling wet, I excused myself to the bathroom. And, upon inspection, found my pad soaked and leaking onto my undies.

I didn't want to stop for the evening so I wiped myself off and threw on a Seni Super I had lying around. Fortunately that kept my clothes cleaner than the pad did...that also ended up moderately wet as well, but I don't give it as much weight since I'm comfortable in diapers. That said, I didn't just go free-for-all and let whatever happen happen...I did try to fight it, and still failed. 

So...Yeah.

Whether by combination of my slight untraining before surgery, complications and catheterization after, pre-existing issues, or what...I guess I have that now. Not that I mind in the long term, but the timing aaaaaain't great for surgery recovery! XD

Sorry to hear about the timing, but let me the first in saying Congratulations!

[Kif]

Small (but difficult) update:

• I'll eventually have another surgery in the fall (fix complications from the second one)
• I'm putting untraining on hold for mental health reasons

If your interest in Little stuff or diapers is associated with trauma in any way, be aware all these surgeries/recoveries can trigger things. And the emotional load of that can be difficult on its own, let alone if it simultaneously disconnects you from your Little side, and now your strongest coping mechanism is completely shot (even triggering). And that combo can be life threatening, if you can believe it (I still don't, despite having been there).

So, please don't discount or underestimate the possibility this can apply to you; ensure you have people physically living with you, have a support network, and can access/afford mental health care post-op. I knew going into this post-op mental health could be a challenge...but I didn't expect it to completely dwarf the physical part like this, and tear an entire side of my identity into pieces.

Play safe y'all. ?

[~Brian~]

12 hours ago, Kif said:

Small (but difficult) update:

• I'll eventually have another surgery in the fall (fix complications from the second one)
• I'm putting untraining on hold for mental health reasons

If your interest in Little stuff or diapers is associated with trauma in any way, be aware all these surgeries/recoveries can trigger things. And the emotional load of that can be difficult on its own, let alone if it simultaneously disconnects you from your Little side, and now your strongest coping mechanism is completely shot (even triggering). And that combo can be life threatening, if you can believe it (I still don't, despite having been there).

So, please don't discount or underestimate the possibility this can apply to you; ensure you have people physically living with you, have a support network, and can access/afford mental health care post-op. I knew going into this post-op mental health could be a challenge...but I didn't expect it to completely dwarf the physical part like this, and tear an entire side of my identity into pieces.

Play safe y'all. ?

@Kif

thank you for your update! I hope that you are able 2 deal with the issues that you are experiencing with your mental health, and that eventually you will be able to fix or have fixed the issues that were caused by your last surgery, so that eventually you will be able to continue your untraining journey. Surgery like this in my view, is very very complex, and there are many many nuances and things that can be issues that you are unaware of, until you are actually dealing with them. It is my hope that eventually, you will have everything the way you want it to be, and that you will be able to be the young lady that you want to be

mental health is always important! There have been times when I have had to take stock in what is going on in my life, and sometimes it is more important to drop things that are driving me crazy, and in that way I'm not worrying about them as much as I would normally be. One of the things that I have learned is that there are many things in life that I may not have control over, so as much as I can I try to get rid of negative influences and things that would drive me crazy: this is the only way to keep myself sane in some cases, so I understand where you may be headed, although I may not quite understand what you may be personally experiencing at this time. Mental health is important, and I wish you all the best in dealing with your issues.

I wish you all the best, and I want you to know that we will be here to help you should you need us

*****Hugs****

Brian

[Kif]

So, a few interesting and good things have been happening since my last post. 

First of all, therapy has been going fantastic  ?

It has been tough, really really really tough at times. But, it has been gradually getting better and I'm feeling way way way wayyy better than I was. 

One thing I did worry about was if, through therapy, I would lose an interest in untraining. Or even being Little in-general. Admittedly, those thoughts crossed my mind a lot in the beginning. But, as things progressed and my sense of self confidence and worth came back up, and I found friends, those fears faded away. 

So I continued to wear diapers. 

Unfortunately I don't remember exactly when I really kept at it...I do know that, in practice, I was rarely out of them despite getting cold feet in July. 

Which brings me to the second thing: I'm having daytime accidents, despite trying not to.

And by that, I mean I'm having moments where I literally cannot stop myself from peeing...hunched over, straining, trying not to let it happen, in the middle of taking off my diaper to try and use the toilet. Or most commonly, if I do make it to the toilet (after dialation especially for some reason...) and I try to stop the stream it (a) takes a long time to stop, and (b) I can only stop it for a few seconds at best.

For those wondering, it doesn't feel like I expected...I was thinking it'd be like having numbness and not feeling any movement at all down there...but it feels more like trying to do a point-of-failure pushup at the end of a set. Yes, I can move my arm like I normally would and I can even think myself strong and capable because heck I can move my arm right? However, when I try to do that last rep, my coordination is shot, and my strength is drained out, and despite the effort my form goes to heck, arms give out, and I collapse to the ground. And then I pee myself.

So...I dunno, maybe it's denial or what, but despite that I still don't think my control is entirely gone. If I, for example, try to hold it several times in a row I can 'remember' how to coordinate things down there and I have enough strength to stop it for a while. But, I haven't tested how long and laughing/straining is all it takes to overwhelm it. To that, I think the one other indicator that I still have something left is that I can and do feel urge build up if I'm lying down, and my bedwetting is inconsistent (though increasingly in that twighlight zone of not remembering if I woke up at night or not). 

So, these changes honestly catch me by surprise; I didn't expect to literally helplessly pee myself in the middle of attempting to reach the toilet this soon. I was guessing things would stay the same...as they did for most of the past several months. This has all started to happen in the past few weeks really. About the time I noticed I was leaking a lot more and had to jump to the next better diaper when leaving home.

I think that, maybe, if I start retraining up again now I'll be okay for the recovery after the next (and hopefully last) followup surgery. I'll start slow; start by clenching off after peeing. Then I'll also wear underwear, as I still have that psychological memory to remember to hold by default. And it'll probably come back good enough. I think.

But I think next time I let go, I suspect it really will go for good. And either way, this blog/thread will be an interesting (if frustrating) story in how you can bring yourself to an edge and back again.

[Kif]

One thing I've noticed since my last post is *even less* inhibition in wetting...which might be ... "well duh" but hear me out.

We all know that when you wet you should acknowledge it, relax, and divert your attention somewhere else. I'm really good at this when I'm standing still, and to a lesser extent laying down. But when moving? Ohhhh no...not quiiite.

Before, it went like this: I'd feel the need to pee, and I'd think "Oh! Gotta relax, gotta relax, gotta relax". This is fine, except when e.g. moving; I'd find myself trying to "control" it to *ensure* I stayed relaxed throughout a body movement. Which, counter-productively, would take my attention / focus when I really was supposed to be just acknowledging it and moving on. Plus, I'd find myself unintentionally clenching by accident, kinda like when the doctor hits the nerve by your knee and you kick on reflex; it was almost like I'd push to relax so much it had the opposite effect.

Now, it goes like this: I feel the need to pee, think "Oh, I should relax but...Meh, it doesn't matter anyway." The difference now is that I know if I clench etc and try to not go then I'll go anyway...So, it really doesn't matter whether I focus on being relaxed or not through e.g. movements. So, for the first time in a while, I started to go while climbing stairs and...simply forgot to care about it, and didn't tense up at all. When I reached the top of the stairs, like when standing, I felt somewhat surprised as I realized I was wet and then remembered "oh yeah, I briefly thought to relax at the bottom of the stairs". 

So...that's a cool and productive change I guess! 

[cathdiap]

@Kif Glad to hear you are finally recovering from your surgeries. Would be great if this rough phase of your transitioning would be rewarded with the incontinence you desire as a bonus.

I was thinking if the removal of the prostate would be an option for transitioning MtF's with incontinent desires, as it will increase the chances of becoming incontinent. Is this ever a point of discussion in the whole transitioning phase? I can imagine that the removal of the prostate would add to the feeling of becoming  a woman. 
 

i hope you don't mind me asking this, I am truly interested as there are many more MtF's who like wearing diapers.

 

[Kif]

4 hours ago, cathdiap said:

@Kif Glad to hear you are finally recovering from your surgeries. Would be great if this rough phase of your transitioning would be rewarded with the incontinence you desire as a bonus.

I was thinking if the removal of the prostate would be an option for transitioning MtF's with incontinent desires, as it will increase the chances of becoming incontinent. Is this ever a point of discussion in the whole transitioning phase? I can imagine that the removal of the prostate would add to the feeling of becoming  a woman. 
 

i hope you don't mind me asking this, I am truly interested as there are many more MtF's who like wearing diapers.

 

I'm not a doctor, but my general understanding is that removing the prostate often poses unnecessary additional risk in surgery (nerve damage, bleeding, urinary issues, etc). In addition to that, if the result of removing the prostate is decreased urinary control then that could mean additional risk during recovery; e.g. having a catheter longer (increasing risk of UTI) or making keeping the area clean / dry more difficult. Finally, in a similar vein to surgery to become incontinent / increase urinary issues, there's also moral implications as well for the surgeon in inflicting unnecessary risk/harm.

This ofc assumes, btw, that the result of doing that would be to decrease the ability to hold urine rather than e.g. have the opposite effect and cause retention. I had to have my urethra widened a bit, and the thought of granulation near the entrance or some other issue that could cause retention problems was definitely a worry on my mind when recovering...after going through all that, I generally feel pretty fearful of surgery in-general but especially anything that touches the urinary system. Recovery sucks as it is, and the fewer risks you can have then the better.

[cathdiap]

Thank you for your reply. The only risks I know of are (temporary) total incontinence for urine and impotence, but the latter wouldn't bother any of the transitioning people I think. Retention would indeed be the opposite of what I want, but I have never heard of that being a  complication of prostate removal. But hey I am not a doctor either....

[ozziebee]

You'll find that prostate problems largely disappear the longer one has been on estrogen therapy and post-op MTF, with all the other bits gone.  I've had ultrasounds done down there as part of investigations to why I'm having urinary issues, and the person doing the ultrasound has often mentioned that my prostate is extremely small.  

I had scarring in my urethra, which was removed in a second surgery 6 months after my gender-affirming surgery.  

My urinary investigations revealed I need a Cuda cath if I ever need catheterisation, as straight caths don't go in...

[Old_PA]

At the age of 70, 7 years ago, I had my prostate removed due to a spot of cancer. Total ED followed. I needed pads for 10 weeks for mild incontinence although I often later used them for insurance as the inner sphincter was removed.This is when I discovered the joys of wearing diapers. These days I frequently use catheters or modified catheters.

  

[Kif]

I'm happy to hear it's maybe not as scary as I'd thought, thanks y'all.

That said, even if I had been able to request it I'd still rather not have taken additional risk in surgery; my nerves were fried as they were worrying about getting Covid (delaying surgery several months due to anesthesia risk), let alone the number of complications I could have experienced in surgery or recovery. 

[Kif]

Uhm...Hmm...How to put this...

I think my bowel control is starting to erode?

Like, I remember Kali talking about having accidents while in stressful / compromised positions (like squats) being one of those flags you have to watch out for. And I specifically remember thinking "Okay I can see that but...I have a really hard time picturing that happening to me" after reading that... ?‍♀️

I've fortunately not yet had a full accident (emptying out all the way, unable to stop it), but I have:

• had very small ones / leaks when I didn't quite expect to and was in a compromised position e.g. squatting (have been working on ankle stuff)
• had to focus on not messing in certain positions/exercises; e.g. it feels like it'll come out or has started to come out, and I have to stop what I'm doing and/or clench down a bit
• exercise now in-general triggers gas (new thing for me)
• for a while now, had lots more urgency in the mornings / pain when trying to hold it

I also had a hilarious moment walking to the bathroom, uncontrollably farting and giggling (progressively louder) with each step. And in the past week I've been having more-frequent movements (though I've also had a head-cold so...who knows). 

So...Not honestly sure how to think about that. I guess I'm fine with this longer-term but maybe not right now? I will be trying to stop/slow this by at least mayyyybe trying to hold it longer in the mornings instead of immediately emptying out? 

Again as a reminder to anybody else reading this...whatever I'm experiencing could be the result of bottom surgery (whether weakening my pelvic floor, or just...not quite using my muscles like I used to) and this really shouldn't be a normal progression. If it gets any worse, I'll involve my doc. I already told them about the daytime issues but it hasn't gone any further than that (no tests ordered, etc).

[Kif]

Uhm wow. 

I set a goal of holding for 5 minutes just to start. Should be a piece of cake right?

But damn that was uncomfortable. And I realized after-the-fact it was probably even-less than that because the clock in the other room was behind a minute or two.

I didn't exactly lose control after that time, but holy god did I need to just let go. And this, mind you, was under "ideal" conditions; I have my doubts if I ever have an upset tummy outside the house, or had to keep a straight face. Ohhhhh boy...honestly, it'd be a wise idea to be dressed assuming the worst whenever I leave the house. And to get swim diapers next summer.

I'm gonna keep trying to get stronger for now, but I admit...while I don't like what happened after the second surgery, it is ultimately a cosmetic problem. I was seriously toying with the thought of declining having another revision surgery to fix it...More travel, going under while awake, scared to move for two weeks, another 2 teasing out stitches...All without diapers, of course.

I admit, it'd be nice to throw in the towel and say "fuck it, good enough". 

[Kif]

Also, I just realized I forgot to describe a change I went through from roughly July to now (let's say Oct) that I thought folks might have found interesting. 

So when you pee you are supposed to keep your muscles relaxed as long as possible. I had been doing that quite well, and now it really does feel like a default thing to not hold any tension down there. 

But one thing that I didn't expect to have happen were these...contractions, especially when falling asleep?

It was actually a problem for a while, and I experienced it nearly immediately from after surgery I think because I was ultra paranoid about getting anything wet at some level. So what did that feel like?

You know that sensation of falling asleep, and then suddenly feeling like you're actually falling, jolting you awake? I had that, except in my pelvic floor. I'd be relaxing and about to doze off, when my pelvic floor would suddenly relax more and I'd feel it completely drop. But, uncontrollably, everything down there would suddenly clamp down and tense up to pull the pelvic floor back in again -- and the sensation would jolt me back awake. 

During the day I might experience something similar when sitting for a while or when I have what feels like a "might leak" kind of full bladder. I'd have to focus on relaxing, and I'd get the same reflexive pull-back. At one point, this felt kinda vibration-y as they battled it out but it wasn't ever painful.

Anyway, I realized today I've not experienced that for quite some time now. Which is great, of course! But yeah, sorry I forgot to document that here...It happened so much I didn't think much of it, then it went away without me realizing it. So, now ya' know...

...And I suspect, btw, that it was around the time I noticed increased leaks and had to up my diapering again that was when that behavior started fading...But I didn't journal about it privately, so we'll never know unless I go through training/untraining again.

[Hannah YMS]

1 hour ago, Kif said:

I'm gonna keep trying to get stronger for now, but I admit...while I don't like what happened after the second surgery, it is ultimately a cosmetic problem.

Why bother getting stronger? Isn't incontinence the goal or objective here? Let it happen!

[Kif]

1 hour ago, jonbearab said:

Why bother getting stronger? Isn't incontinence the goal or objective here? Let it happen!

It...I...*sigh*

I mean, you're right. And it's what I *want* to happen.

It's just that...while I'm more towards "fuck it" with the other surgery than I used to be, I still want to try and go for it if I can and...I don't want more reasons for it to go sideways like the first time. (not related to diapers btw...probably was combo of cath bumping it, skin elasticity, method, etc)

Am getting impatient on the revision date, though (still don't have one besides vaguely "the fall")...so my resolve does weaken day-by-day.

Ugh...wanting this while also wanting bottom surgery to be done sucks.

[Hannah YMS]

On 9/28/2022 at 2:22 AM, Kif said:

It...I...*sigh*

I mean, you're right. And it's what I *want* to happen.

It's just that...while I'm more towards "fuck it" with the other surgery than I used to be, I still want to try and go for it if I can and...I don't want more reasons for it to go sideways like the first time. (not related to diapers btw...probably was combo of cath bumping it, skin elasticity, method, etc)

Am getting impatient on the revision date, though (still don't have one besides vaguely "the fall")...so my resolve does weaken day-by-day.

Ugh...wanting this while also wanting bottom surgery to be done sucks.

All in all, I wish you the best with what you decide. I hope you can be done with your surgeries soon. I hear recovery is a PITA.

[Kif]

Thanks Jon!

Ofc, literally just got my surgery date now. And it's less than a month away so I immediately had to jump into only-diapers-when-you-can't-fail mode; e.g. no diapers during the day, except when leaving the house (fortunately I can WFH most of the week).

It was alright, but damn did it feel stressful thinking about my bladder so much and going potty as soon as an urge hit.

I've continued focusing on improving bowel control in the mornings too, BUT when I said I could go less than five minutes I'm realizing what I really meant was 1-3 minutes when standing. Which, is just above the threshold for time required to remove complex clothes (fortunately I usually dress in skirts)...

This could literally be the edge in front of the point of no-return, and had I not committed like I had this week I may not have noticed going right past it. That's the scary part, I think...It's not like I was ever "testing" my bowel control especially since I usually only go in the mornings; yeah I could feel discomfort but it wasn't different from before untraining and it was easy to assume I could still manage despite it or that the discomfort would go away after a minute or two like it usually did.

But nope. The only clue I got was getting an uptick in BMs during the day, going from in-the-morning, to after each meal, to during exercise within the span of a few weeks. So if any y'all untraining in that area...do track the number of BMs and if they're outside mealtime or not, because it appears to sneak up on ya.

This morning was I think a bit more...telling than the past few days. I tried the hardest I'd tried so far, and I felt vibrating when trying to hold it, at the 2-3 minute mark just like when first training a muscle. I was straining and focusing entirely on not having an accident up to that point already, too, and while I briefly imagined being in underwear instead of diapers it only gave me a minute-more (literally) of resolve before I ... had an accident. 

I'm still not quite sure how much of it is my body pushing because diapers = time to potty so push now vs I'm actually in undies don't do this now (feels lots like when they do when I strength train tbh), so since tomorrow is a weekend I'm going to give that a ... try. Will see then what I have to report. 

But in either case, I think I'll be okay in the end...

I can work up my strength, as I've demonstrated to myself with my arms, legs, etc...so I'll get there. The main question now is how much I can get back before time runs out.

[Kif]

Also just realized after posting the above, that were I not able to work from home most days, I'd be royally fucked.

• If I accidentally start to pee, I can't stop it and it's going to empty at least halfway before I can stop it for a few seconds. Not manageable with pads, requires diapers.
• If I have an upset tummy, I'll likely have an accident unless I can find a toilet presumably within <5 minutes at best (I've not tested this...nor desire to). Absolutely requires diapers to manage.

In all manners above, wearing proper full diapers with leak and odor protection (an additional layer of plastic pants, ideally also terry or something else absorbent) would make logical sense. To go without that cold-turkey is honestly a bit irresponsible on my part.

Literally the only reason I can only take the risk of running about the majority of the day out of diapers is because I work from home most days, and can therefore afford to have accidents without becoming a bio-social hazard for others. I have a safe environment to fail in.

Were I having to come in to work every day, I couldn't take that risk...I'd still try, and I'm lucky to have an office job where I could run off to the restroom and try getting off my clothes before the timer runs out. But not everybody has that luxury of accessibility and predictability.

So, wanted to post that separately as I think it's important to keep that in perspective. I'm in ideal circumstances to retrain, so if I succeed then honestly I owe it more-so to those circumstances than anything else. And if I fail then...that's 100% on me.

I think Kali talked about that as well a few times, and I know if their case at the time they had lots of commuting, lots of walking between classes, etc...as I understand it, less ideal than the ones I'm in right now. It's funny to have arrived at similar realizations.

[Kif]

On 9/30/2022 at 7:38 AM, Kif said:

I'm still not quite sure how much of it is my body pushing because diapers = time to potty so push now vs I'm actually in undies don't do this now (feels lots like when they do when I strength train tbh), so since tomorrow is a weekend I'm going to give that a ... try. Will see then what I have to report.

Hooray! I actually made it to 5 minutes, with no diapers as backup...

...And I definitely didn't dart to the bathroom on the dot to end my "self torture".

...And I couldn't keep a straight face, stand upright, or stay silent, nor prevent my husband from asking if I was okay or if that was just my "poopy face" (bless his infinite supply of snark and tease)

...And I may or may not have literally counted every minute, and been unable to focus on anything except keeping my pants clean...

But I did make it. Hah! ?

God, I'm celebrating a measly five minutes. ?

FTR, while numerically this should have proved a difference, this felt just as hard as yesterday and had I not measured it I wouldn't have perceived any difference. Thank goodness for clocks, to keep me motivated?

[Kif]

Welcome to "Kiffy Completely Fails Toilet Training" folks.

In today's episode, I was on a roll and made it to 5, then 6, and then had finally 7 minutes yesterday. I was confident I could at least make it to 7, even 8 minutes.

But today I couldn't even make it to 4. ?

It wasn't like I wasn't trying...I wanted to do better, I felt competitive to beat my previous record, and admittedly part of me was also curious if it really was going to push out despite me holding as hard as I could. (even though it ... has...despite my denial)

And so of course it did, disbelief be damned. And then my control collapsed completely and it exploded out. 

So, I've come up with a new extension to "prairie dogging": It's a buff-ass fuzzy fucker that muscle-ups a damn couch on the way out. Holy shit.

[Hannah YMS]

@Kif, just now getting to these responses. I don't know why I forgot about our conversation here. This forum is so spread out I think I forget most everything eventually. Thanks for bearing with me on my last reply to another thread.

On 9/29/2022 at 11:38 PM, Kif said:

Ofc, literally just got my surgery date now. And it's less than a month away so I immediately had to jump into only-diapers-when-you-can't-fail mode; e.g. no diapers during the day, except when leaving the house (fortunately I can WFH most of the week).

Makes perfect sense. I wish I had read this thread before replying in the last one ?. Damn eh? Good luck with your upcoming surgery! Best wishes.

[cathdiap]

On 10/6/2022 at 7:16 AM, Kif said:

Welcome to "Kiffy Completely Fails Toilet Training" folks.

Maybe it is time for a new sub-forum: "Continent desires". ? ?