Post Plastics Disposable Future?

[DAQ]

As more countries ban the use of single use plastics it looks like the future of disposable diapers is in question and in many cases numbered. While I am working towards a cloth future for home use, it seems hopelessly impractical for usage outside of the home as nothing is as discrete as disposables. Is there any alternative that is available or even on the horizon that can reliably replace plastics in diapers?

[Frogboy]

Biodegradable nappies is a thing. They're not perfect, yet, but with something like 80% of the nappy decomposing within 4years, instead of over 400years, it's a definite improvement. Give it a few more years and a bit more social pressure and it'll improve even more. So I don't think disposables will disappear forever. (Don't forget to use biodegradable nappy bags too, though)

In the meantime, I'm switching to cloth. The electricity provider we use pumps 100% renewable energy into our house, so aside from a bit of water and some carbons that go into making the wash powder, it'll be much better for the environment than the mountain of disposables I get through, I'm thinking I'll get some from babykins so I'll still have cute prints to enjoy.

It's an interesting topic though, all this single use plastic lark. I'm actually impressed at how much their use has dropped over the last year, solely because the public have turned round to industry and said "no-more". Who knew the consumer had so much power! I know a lot of people think that they can't make a difference, but clearly they can. It's good to see. I saw a quote the other day that really drove the point home...

"But it's just one plastic straw" - Said 7 billion people

[Kaylaindiapers]

If you modify diapers just tear the outside cloth cover on baby diapers and you have the plastic diaper.

[nonny]

The post-disposable-plastics society can’t come soon enough. With billions of us on the planet and every baby making a tonne of non-biodegradable soiled diapers, it just can’t continue.

We’re going to have to get used to living differently if we want to continue to live at all. We used nothing but cloth for our own children, and were quiet crusaders for bringing reusables back into fashion. Diapers and lots of other things too. Their baby years ended about 20 years ago now. The big diaper companies fought back with big, phony public relations campaigns about diaper composting and recycling pilot projects, neither of which ever happened to any meaningful degree, or ever will. The economics of that are absurd.

Of course being out in public with anyone of any age in cloth diapers gets awkward and messy sometimes, but so does just about everything about life, and parenthood.

[DiaperboyEddie12]

I'm for cleaning up the world.  But I believe diapers should have plastic backed.

[nappylover78]

It would be a big ask for everyone to change to washable diapers and hygiene products, and have a particularly big impact on women, disabled people and carers. So I don't think it will be a decision taken lightly... but I expect a lot of effort to be made into sourcing alternatives.

Vanuatu is the first country to be proposing a disposable diaper ban, but being a small island nation with limited waste disposal space it's very much a specific test case.

[DAQ]

It was my understanding that Vanuatu banned all single use plastics. And while at home I wouldn't mind cloth there is just nothing subtle about wearing them in public. It will be interesting to see if single use bans include biodegradable plastics and other more environmentally friendly alternatives. 

[Warmwetandcozy]

I personally don't think they will ban them in the US in my life time but if they do diapers will be no harder to get than they are now the gangs and cartels will be more than happy to add disposable diapers to their catalogue with drugs and illegal weapons and the cops won't give a shit about diaper dealers when there's drug dealers on the same corner so it will be a high reward low risk crime to the crook and there's even more demand for disposable diapers than drugs so yes I could totally see illegal diapers coming in on the same trucks with all the cocaine and the other contraband do you seriously think the mobs of women with children and well paying jobs and collage degrees are gonna give up there jobs to wash diapers 

[Puer Aeternus]

Like some sort of Diaper Post-Apocalypse. umm... Diaper Warrior (and the recent movie, Mad Max: Diaper Road), A Boy and his Diaper, 28 Diapers Later... or how about the classic Vincent Price movie The Last Diaper on Earth. 

and a list like that would not be complete without the the final chapter of the incredible diaper saga, Battle for the Planet of Diapers. spoiler for the first in the series "YOU MANIACS!! You had a blow out!"

 

meh it won't really change my routine Cloth inside, Disposable outside. And yes, I am still thinking of other movie titles.

[Stroller]

Really, we're going to have to change so that we don't throw stuff away, but re-use it.  That applies to everything, within reason.  The companies that make stuff will have to be made responsible for the cost of clearing up what they've made once it's no longer useful.  So washable nappies will probably be natural fibre (bamboo, cotton - as most of them are now), and the fibres recycled when the nappy is worn out.  Disposables may still exist, but the companies that produce them will have to be made responsible for recycling them effectively.  I've no idea what they'll be made of, but until the nappy companies are made responsible for the cost of recycling, they aren't going to do the research or make the investment, are they?

At the end of the day the world's only got limited resources, and limited space to throw things away in.  We've only seen the start of this problem so far - I think it will get a lot worse before it starts to get better.

[DAQ]

6 hours ago, Warmwetandcozy said:

I personally don't think they will ban them in the US in my life time but if they do diapers will be no harder to get than they are now the gangs and cartels will be more than happy to add disposable diapers to their catalogue with drugs and illegal weapons and the cops won't give a shit about diaper dealers when there's drug dealers on the same corner so it will be a high reward low risk crime to the crook and there's even more demand for disposable diapers than drugs so yes I could totally see illegal diapers coming in on the same trucks with all the cocaine and the other contraband do you seriously think the mobs of women with children and well paying jobs and collage degrees are gonna give up there jobs to wash diapers 

I think that policy and public policy can move much faster than you think. A political pendulum can swing pretty quick. I think what we could see is not an overnight ban but a 5-10 year phase out.

If history has taught us anything through the prohibition of alcohol and drugs is that when there is a demand for an illegal supply it will be filled. However, how many are willing to pay for the added cost. Right now a premium diaper might cost between $1.8-3.5 each. Are you willing to pay 4-7 each? I am not. That would be the big change to illegal diapers.

The biggest thing that I think of is the ban on plastic straws. paper ones exist but are much different than their plastic counterparts. I don't know that there is a material that exists that can match all the properties of plastic without being plastic

[Alex Bridges]

Disposables will be made biodegradable or will be phased out eventually. There’s already a movement against them on both environmental and health grounds.

Personally, I would happily pay an excise tax on disposable diapers if the money went toward research into biodegradables, recycling, and environmental harm reduction.

I do think we’ll see a distinction made between baby diapers and adult diapers. They’re just comparable in terms of environmental impact based on the number of users, and the economics are very different. So long as adult diapers are classed as a medical device, you’re unlikely to see them taxed. Some jurisdictions already exclude all medical devices from sales taxes.

[Stroller]

46 minutes ago, Author_Alex said:

I do think we’ll see a distinction made between baby diapers and adult diapers. They’re just comparable in terms of environmental impact based on the number of users, and the economics are very different. So long as adult diapers are classed as a medical device, you’re unlikely to see them taxed. Some jurisdictions already exclude all medical devices from sales taxes.

That's already technically the case in the UK, although it's not used to raise money to pay for recycling.  Quoting from the government website,  VAT (Value Added Tax) is not payable on  '...nappies (and nappy liners), both disposable and reusable, provided they’re held out for sale to be used only for babies and young children'. 

VAT is not generally charged on adult nappies at the moment if you buy them from incontinence suppliers, but...

'Retail sales

People who are incontinent and live in their own homes are entitled to buy incontinence products at the zero rate. Eligible incontinence products such as

• disposable and washable incontinence pads including pads that are incorporated in briefs;
• underwear designed for use by an incontinent person such as underwear that is waterproof or leak proof; and
• collecting devices

may be zero-rated on the shelf (no eligibility declaration - see VRDP44000 - required) provided that the number purchased does not exceed that set out in Bulk sales. We accept that due to their specialist nature only eligible individuals are likely to buy incontinence products.

Internet and mail order sales

Supplies of eligible incontinence products over the Internet or by mail order also qualify for VAT relief providing they are made to individuals and not institutions - see Bulk sales.'

End of quote.

What this means is that for now they're given up trying to charge VAT on those of us without a medical need for them because 'only eligible individuals are likely to buy incontinence products'.  What they mean, I think, is that it's just too hard to identify the ABs and DLs, and there aren't enough of us make it worth while chasing us for the tax that we are technically liable for.

 

[Alex Bridges]

50 minutes ago, Stroller said:

That's already technically the case in the UK, although it's not used to raise money to pay for recycling.  Quoting from the government website,  VAT (Value Added Tax) is not payable on  '...nappies (and nappy liners), both disposable and reusable, provided they’re held out for sale to be used only for babies and young children'. 

VAT is not generally charged on adult nappies at the moment if you buy them from incontinence suppliers, but...

'Retail sales

People who are incontinent and live in their own homes are entitled to buy incontinence products at the zero rate. Eligible incontinence products such as

• disposable and washable incontinence pads including pads that are incorporated in briefs;
• underwear designed for use by an incontinent person such as underwear that is waterproof or leak proof; and
• collecting devices

may be zero-rated on the shelf (no eligibility declaration - see VRDP44000 - required) provided that the number purchased does not exceed that set out in Bulk sales. We accept that due to their specialist nature only eligible individuals are likely to buy incontinence products.

Internet and mail order sales

Supplies of eligible incontinence products over the Internet or by mail order also qualify for VAT relief providing they are made to individuals and not institutions - see Bulk sales.'

End of quote.

What this means is that for now they're given up trying to charge VAT on those of us without a medical need for them because 'only eligible individuals are likely to buy incontinence products'.  What they mean, I think, is that it's just too hard to identify the ABs and DLs, and there aren't enough of us make it worth while chasing us for the tax that we are technically liable for.

 

Surely that’s part of it, but I also doubt the government wants to be in the business of making a determination of individual’s medical needs. A little different in the U.K. because of the NHS, but when it comes to over the counter products, a tremendous bureaucracy, and data collection, would be needed to know who was purchasing what and why. They’d spend more money on that system than they’d ever collect by weeding out people who don’t need diapers, and even the term “need” is subjective.

In the US, the government wants zero to do with evaluating the medical needs of individuals, and collection and storage of health information is governed by law. In my job, I sometimes collect that kind of info, and I’ve had lawyers tell me I have to jump through hoops to gather information that is only medical in a very broadly defined sense. Easier just to exempt whole categories of products. It’s made even more complicated because states and municipalities set their own sales and excise taxes.

[Firefly 35]

On 7/11/2019 at 4:44 AM, DAQ said:

I don't know that there is a material that exists that can match all the properties of plastic without being plastic

Bioplastics are a real thing.  Some companies are starting to use them in their packaging even now.  

[oznl]

It does seem a waste of dwindling oil resources as well as an environmental problem, all that discarded plastic.

I wonder if there is scope for a hybrid solution.  A disposable, biodegradable diaper that relies upon a reusable plastic pant.  Those things were around decades ago but seems to have largely (not completely) disappeared in the face of the more convenient, 100% disposable garments.  Perhaps we could have some better designed ones that "wrap around".  The slight reduction in convenience could be offset by advertising their environmental benefit.

I think long term cloth diaper usage for adults might be a backward step for skin care and hygiene from an institutional perspective that they'd be reluctant to make.  I would have thought that otherwise, we'd already see cloth in wide institutional use for cost benefits.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Dryper (1951) was a two-piece system. Until they started with the hokum about "leakproof" in the 1980's, rubber panties were always used with pampers, which were the same technology as "Handi-Wipes". Since 1988, both by home economics social workers (who, to a person recommend cloth diapers on economic grounds) and even on the packaging of Pampers, you were told to also use rubber panties. The plastic backing is just good enough to set you up for diaper blowout at the worse possible time. One of the bad effects of plastic backing was that it brought about a new level of chintziness in rubber panties; using ultra-thin material like 3 mil or less, in the 1970's. Before 1972 or so, most panties were made of material 4 mil or more. There were also panties made of textile but those were known for either 'leaking" or the wetproofing becoming separated from the weave, and those go back to 1939 or so http://other.sandralyn.net/rphof.html

As to the hygiene "benefits" of throw-aways". Did not the melanine in the Chinese pet foods teach a lesson? With  cloth diapers, you take care of them yourself so you know "where they have been" after you do the first wash, so there are no third-wrold surprises of which we are one epidemic away from (How come the two Boeing 737 Max crashes were not in North America or Europe?). There are also the "buy once" savings over time (observe the quality difference between the premium AB diapers and Depends/Attends and do you think that hospitals and nursing homes  are going to be ordering Belissimos?) and decent quality rubber panties means no blowout to cause either a scene or a biohazard clothing, bedding or seating cleanup nightmare