torture

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

You are wrong about "ethically wrong". ONce one side initiates force (Al Qeada) that side is AUTOMATICALLY wrong": and that is especially true if that is done by a sneak attack. At that point the ethical discussion is over, ended by their own hand and since they believe that anything goes than anything may be done to them for any, or no,, reason. Please study Aristotlean logic. Lawless groups can have no claim to las or ethical consideration. Nor can it be done on their behalf because it sanctions their lawlessnes. The only argument becomes one of practicality. As I said, this is not the French or the British we are fighting. They have some common ground with us. Al Qaeda, IS, Al Musra or any of these terrorist groups are not signatories to any agreements to which they can be held. So any reasonable ethical discussion, once they throw the bomb, is over and they lose out PERIOD. Also the Taliban, who are joined at the hip with AQ used torture. For example, as I intimated and will now speill out, anyone found with a TV was tortured to death by being beaten heavily then left in a room full of insects to die slowly

[Darkfinn]

No it cost you and me $40 million to do the report...on top of the $81M they spent to come up with this plan plus all it's going to cost us as a result.

[willnotwill]

Sorry , the ends (as dubious as the appear to be) do NOT justify the means.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Do you think that if we refrain(ed) from using torture on the terrorists, they would do likewise? Do you have any idea of what is meant by "the Infidel"? As I said, find out what the Taliban did with Afghanis who had a TV set. As to POW's I believe that Sgt Bergdahl said he was tortured. if true, that ends the What if" discussion right there because it changes it to a "what was" discussion

It is not a question of ends and means since the terrorists do not respect anything but force and cunning. It is not about us, it is about them. You have lived in the lap of comfort too long and have not had to deal with real bad guys bent on your destriction with no appeal or amelioration. In this kind of war, you do what it takes to the enemy to beat him

How come there are persons who can not understand that?

[Bettypooh]

Just pointing out that the person or side who strikes the first blow isn't always in the wrong, nor do they always deserve unregulated retaliation although that sometimes does happen- it can go either way. I personally believe in keeping the higher 'moral ground' whenever possible but I never say that I won't stoop to whatever level I'm having to fight against The only rule in any fight is to not end up being the loser The inhumane, be it the Taliban, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Hitler, or whoever must be regarded as enemies of the human race and dealt with just as one does polio, smallpox, or Ebola; only total eradication will suffice as an end goal. The means taken to achieve that goal must be tempered by the remembering that you're trying to save people, not kill them, but that some will die because of your efforts no matter how careful you try to be. The means are justified by the end only when you're doing the best possible based on what can be done and what is known. That didn't happen here!

[spark]

Do you think that if we refrain(ed) from using torture on the terrorists, they would do likewise? Do you have any idea of what is meant by "the Infidel"? As I said, find out what the Taliban did with Afghanis who had a TV set. As to POW's I believe that Sgt Bergdahl said he was tortured. if true, that ends the What if" discussion right there because it changes it to a "what was" discussion

It is not a question of ends and means since the terrorists do not respect anything but force and cunning. It is not about us, it is about them. You have lived in the lap of comfort too long and have not had to deal with real bad guys bent on your destriction with no appeal or amelioration. In this kind of war, you do what it takes to the enemy to beat him

How come there are persons who can not understand that?

Are you arguing that Enhanced Interrogation is not torture?

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Most of the things that were used in the shamefully misnamed "Patriot" act were in existence since 1977. That means warrentless wiretapping and the FISA courts. Why didn't the Bush Adminitration consult with Israel on airport security instead of initiating the abominable TSA? Bush never was a conservative. Like Nixon, he hid behind the label while running spending up to unprecedented levels. And wasn't it Senator Barack Obama, he of the monthly debt ceiling increse requests, who opposed raising the debt ceiling when Bush wanted to do it?

As far as "evil" no Republican Administration ever used the IRS to attack its opposition. Nixon only TALKD about doing it and got the rebuff he so richly deserved. No Republican Administration since Lincoln transgressed against members of the media (AP) nor was called out for spying on friendly government leaders. No administration ever covered up a terrorist attack (Benghazzi: While the Intelligence Committee is satisfied with the performance of Intel, the cover-up is still under investigation). The father of the dead soldier reported that Hillary Clinton said to him "We arrested the man who made the video [that was the Administration-alleged, by Susan Rice on national TV, cause of the attack]" after the Administration had known from almost the get-go that it was a terrorist attack. Whe confronted with this Hillary said "What's the difference?". What about the actions of the Administration and Jonathan Gruber? And how is "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor" working for anyone? If a GOP Adminstration had tried any of this, presuming they had the competence or courage, let alon ALL of it, the media would be all over them like dumb on a grown-up so there can be no "equal evil" in ANY previous administration

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Are you arguing that Enhanced Interrogation is not torture?

[spark]

Most of the things that were used in the shamefully misnamed "Patriot" act were in existence since 1977. That means warrentless wiretapping and the FISA courts. Why didn't the Bush Adminitration consult with Israel on airport security instead of initiating the abominable TSA? Bush never was a conservative. Like Nixon, he hid behind the label while running spending up to unprecedented levels. And wasn't it Senator Barack Obama, he of the monthly debt ceiling increse requests, who opposed raising the debt ceiling when Bush wanted to do it?

As far as "evil" no Republican Administration ever used the IRS to attack its opposition. Nixon only TALKD about doing it and got the rebuff he so richly deserved. No Republican Administration since Lincoln transgressed against members of the media (AP) nor was called out for spying on friendly government leaders. No administration ever covered up a terrorist attack (Benghazzi: While the Intelligence Committee is satisfied with the performance of Intel, the cover-up is still under investigation). The father of the dead soldier reported that Hillary Clinton said to him "We arrested the man who made the video [that was the Administration-alleged, by Susan Rice on national TV, cause of the attack]" after the Administration had known from almost the get-go that it was a terrorist attack. Whe confronted with this Hillary said "What's the difference?". What about the actions of the Administration and Jonathan Gruber? And how is "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor" working for anyone? If a GOP Adminstration had tried any of this, presuming they had the competence or courage, let alon ALL of it, the media would be all over them like dumb on a grown-up so there can be no "equal evil" in ANY previous administration

[spark]

No I am not saying EIT is not torture. In fact If you look in the early part of this post, I said it is. What I am saying is "so what?". The terrorists and their allies have lost any consideration as being human beings by virtue of acting like mad dogs and, in fact, it would be immoral NOT to use any means that will work to just scrape them off the planet. What do you think they would do to ABDL's under Sheri'a? and quite slowly, too. Morality is not a blueprint for suicide, is it? The fact that anyone in the US tries to float an argument from ethics shows the poor understanding of Ethics in this country as well as inexperience with such an enemy as this. This has been going on in the Near East for 6,000 years. Welcome to history

Now, if you want to argue the effectiveness of torture. Well the Underworld has not changed its methods of intimidation in 10,000 years so it must be working for someone. Also, terrorist groups only attacked the Soviet Union ONCE! Gee; I wonder why? However, that is not the moral argument nor is it even remotely related

[willnotwill]

Do you think that if we refrain(ed) from using torture on the terrorists, they would do likewise?

[kevindhca]

All torture is wrong. Any forced discomfort is torture. There is no justification possible that would make hurting someone else right.

Allowing torture in certian circumstances only makes it more likely to occur in other times.

Most of the debate is irrelevant.

If you support government supported torture, I'll bet you could look the other way as someone got beaten out in the street.

Any country that can pick up people and take them to a secret prison with no trial or oversight, then torture for years, can never have any credible morality.

[Elfy]

I agree Christine the media is so bias it's not even funny!

[Kaylaindiapers]

No I don't buy into the hate america crowd first, we do way more good then we do bad! Once again I still don't say it's torture and I don't think we did anything bad!

[Elfy]

No I don't buy into the hate america crowd first, we do way more good then we do bad! Once again I still don't say it's torture and I don't think we did anything bad!

[Guest YoungZeppelin]

Fighting and death have been around since beginning of humanity. It will never end, just need to make the best of it.

[Dill_Pickle]

Torture only exacts revenge, nothing else.

[lilJester]

They also used tracks by Skinny Puppy to torture....now that's a torture I can rock out to!

[charlie blue]

Hi I feel I must respond to this topic

[spark]

I think once everything gets sorted out, and all of the emotion gets removed it's going to be looked on as a shameful chapter in our history, much the same way we now look at some of the actions that were taken in Vietnam, our history with race- especially segregation, and our treatment of labor during the robber baron era.

[charlie blue]

Spark i absolutely agree with you on that my own government in the UK are working hard to cover up stuff as we speak. We all have the ability to be unkind to others.

[Bettypooh]

I've learned that humans have an amazing capacity to be truly awful to each other, and Americans in no way have a monopoly has this trait.

[kootzkoo]

how is cutting off your head torture?

[kootzkoo]

anyone who believes that the practices of enhanced interrogation are not torture, should subject themselves to those types of enhanced interrogation and afterward, see if they felt tortured.

[Dill_Pickle]

Miss Betty,

Wonderful reasoning that those that are inhumane do not deserve humane treatement.