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The Case For Cloth Diapers And Rubber Panties


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Here is a link to a page that explains fully the case for traditional diapers

http://sandralyn.net/clothrub.html

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Because babies, and by extension, mommmies are the largest users of diapers and therefore the reference point for most discussion of their effacacy: That is just a matter of culture. Even the majority of us or at least, nearly so, think in terms of babyishness/ageplay value of them whch is measured in relation to children. There was an article about what would make a good AB diaper by Tommy in the DPF/NL in the middle '80's that opened with a description seeing a baby with a big (fill-cut) diaper and saying with emphasis "Now that's what we want: Right?". Also for many of us the generic reference to children is the invitation to insert ourselves in the narrative or subtext. As one LG put it:"The difference between a pedophile and an LG is that the pedophile thinks 'how can I get that little girl out of that dress' and the LG thinks 'where can I get a dress like that for myself?'". This kind of thing often gets misconstrued by newbies and totallyby DL's or incon's, who do not understand the subtleties or subtexts of the culture to whcih they are new or non-participatory observers. If you look at my reviews of rubber panties that I have, you will see them rated with babyishenss as a major parameter

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I only wear cloth diapers and waterproof pants. They're easy to hide, they don't need to be thrown out very often, I can make them myself ordering the fabric discreetly online, they feel really babyish, they're reasonably absorbent if you wet slowly and frequently like a real baby. Maybe it is because I was a cloth diaper baby being born in the late 1950s.

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At one time, dipaers were not "made" but were just pieces of material that were folded as needed and did mutliple duty, that is, what would be put on a baby as a diaper today, may, next week, bi used to sit baby on or as a burp cloth. It was only the pre-fold that brought in the idea of "making" diapers. What was put on Linda and me as a little girl were not "baby" diapers although all diapers, since they were wet or something else, were considered "baby" as were rubber panties which, a 6 year old could wear large toddler size anyway and children did complain about being treated like a baby and boys complained about being treated like babies and/or girls

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Here is a link to a page that explains fully the case for traditional diapers

http://sandralyn.net/clothrub.html

I have been wearing the "traditional diaper" and "rubber pants" on a nightly basis for most of my life. I am in my mid 50s' so that is what was around when I was a child. Yes I wet the be like many other people. Some people make do with pull-ups but I wet through those.

IF the EPA wanted to be pricks, they could force people to use cloth diapers. This could be the new "green job"! Driving a diaper service truck could be a green job. The person filling the tank with bio-diesel would have a green job. The people that operate and service the diaper washing facility would have green jobs!

Oh you can keep using your disposables but the EPA will add a 3 dollar environmental impact fee to each diaper at the time of pruchase!

Fo the record I am against the government mandating any BS like I just described! The above is fiction but this kind of nonsense is really going on in America so be very afraid!

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What do you mean "wahted to be ...."? Ask what is left of the manufacturing sector if th3ey are or are not Actually the biggest pile up of disposable diapers in from babies; at around 5500 x however many babies there are is huge. Hospitals/nursing homes have medical waste facilities and prcessing emthods and incon does not contribute much to the pile and ABDL is next to nothing

My point was to present an overall list of the several advantages of cloth diapers and rubber panties for all sectors of the market. I did not eve consider privacy. There is not a constant steam of packages arriving at your home some of which are sure to have tell-tale writing or the risk of being seen picking up the itmes

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  • 2 months later...

Wait, what? There are LOTS of inaccuracies listed. Obviously someone who has not had to wear cloth diapers. I’m only going to tacking the first set. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a cloth diaper fan but modern disposables are very easy to work with. I used to be nearly all cloth but with a professional career, I can’t do cloth during the day. I now only use it during weekend and nights.

Here’s the Cloth Diaper list. (With original spelling errors.)

  1. You do not save that much time or work with throw-away diapers becuase you are supposed to rinse them very well before you throw them away which most users do not.

Say what? I’ve never heard of that and how do you rinse a disposable? They will just soak until they can’t absorb more.

  1. You use them many times over paying for only cleaning and upkeep, so you save MONEY. I have been told as much by home economics social workers (the only worthwhile kind since they actually do useful work; and I have dealt with many social workers so I know what I am talking about) whose job it is to know things like that

Save money? Only in the long run and diapers require laundry. That costs a little money but LOTS of time. If you use adult diapers, you either need to launder every day or every other day. Or else you need more sets of cloth which means more upfront costs. I had to BUY a used washer dryer combo just for my diapers so that our main washer and dryer can be used for regular laundry.

  1. Unless they are special-purpose diapers, to fit special circumstnaces, you can use diapers for other things, even after Baby outgrows them so they do multiple duty

Old diaper do make great cloths and dusters.

  1. You do not throw them away after using once so they are not WASTEFUL and save dump space for mre appropriate uses.

Eventually they do get retired.

  1. You do not have to worry about "where they have been". You care for and clean then yourself so you control the conditions in which they are kept. In fact. you are to wash them before even using them

Correct but what’s the point?

  1. Cloth diapers are less likely to fail

    1. Throw-ways have their own waterproof covering. With cloth diepars, you use a separate covering so one rubber pantiy is used with more than one diaper and is sturdier than the built-in and less apt to fail or "blow out"

      Wrong. Cloth diapers are more prone to leak because they can only hold so much and that’s it. It is the job of the plastic pants to contain the leaks but little can be done if you squeeze liquid out of cloth by sitting down. Very hard to do with a disposable.
      1. Good cloth diapers PIN in place so they are more secure than tapes which fail far too often

      Wrong, wrong, wrong. Pins are terrible. Velcro works great and tapes on disposables are also great. You can always use tape if needed. For an adult you need at least 4 pins and they are hard to deal with.

      1. Throw-aways have been known to fall apart inside over the course of a night as the absorbent part comes free of the shell

      Only cheap brands.

      1. Because throw away diapersw have bits of a special material in them to turn wet into a jelly that are hard and in the form of small beads, these beads of hard material sometimes poke through the flimsy waterproof material and make the diaper leaky and useless, which adds to the wastefulness.

      Again, only with cheap brands.

      These failings add to the cost of disposable diapers. Cloth diapers do not have these problems.

      1. You do not have to fight with a number of fasteners; sometimes 3 on a side, for a total of 6, but usually at least 4, that need to be put exactly in the right spots. one or two pins does it all

      Tapes are a breeze. Obviously this person has never had to diaper themselves quickly. Pins!?! Seriously.

      1. Cloth diapers help fight diaper rash better

      2. The "wicking" action carries wet away from Baby.


        DEAD DEAD WRONG. Cloth keeps wetness right where it starts and it spreads everywhere. You are much MORE likely to get a skin rash with cloth. Disposable wick moisture away and its takes a while to even feel wet. With cloth, you always feel and are wet.
        1. They allow air to circulate unless you make them to tight

        What air? You are wearing plastic pants to prevent air from circulating.

        1. You fold them to meet the specific needs so they work better

        Adult diapers are usually cut to shape or have very little folding to do.

        1. Cloth diapers are more confy

        Until they get wet or it is hot out.

        1. Disposable diapers are not disposed of: They are merely stored in a different place after use where they or their contents will linger on and fester for decades or centuries. Since they have become ubiquitous, I have heard many more "boil water" due to coloform bacteria alerts in my area and we have had an extraordinary number of E Coli incidents of late, also

        B.S. They breakdown just fine. There was a disposable diaper scare a number of years back so researchers checked landfills and found out that disposables break down VERY fast.

        That's all I have for now. I don't think I need to go on.

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From REASON Magazine, discussing the question of the newly biodegradable diapers in about 1989. In breaking down, they would release toxins into the environmnet that coulod get into things like the water table. Also I have not heard about progress with biodegradables. However you are playing with medical waste grade materials here and the super-efficent dumps are expensive. As I've said, I've seen a shrap rise in the number of "boil water" and e coli alerts since the predominance of thrwo-away diapers (the last 35 years) and look at the last few years in terms of e coli contamination incidents in which the e coli was in irrigation water. Now just why is the bacteria called "e coli"? Beyond that, in the disposal chain you have the problems of isolating these things while awaiting pickup. I have been told about dogs tearing open plastic garbage bags to get at these things then spreading them around in cities. And don't talk to me about educationg peple because isn't that just the thing that does not happen in the underclass and even if warned does that have much effect?

Introducing sweer grade material into the less biologically secure systems is dangerous business and bringing these large systems to the level of bio-securty that it would take is hrrifically and in some cases, prohibitively, expensive

The use of complex-molecule plastics in packaging has turnedthe waste disposal industry into a puzzle palace. when I was 10 the only two plastics used were polyethelene and cellophane packaging was in cardboard boxes or paper which could be burned without releasing toxins. . There were no "Baggies" or even "Saran Wrap", we used wax paper. 40 years of off-shoring our manufaucturing of consomer goods has led to the use of hard plastic "blister packs" and things like that where packages were made of cardboard and cellophane (which we used to like to burn to hear it crackle). Even the disposalbe pen was mostly unheard of

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Please look up the Garbage Project, which is basically an archaeological dig into landfills. What they discovered is quite a surprise. What is not a surprise is that what they discovered never really made the news or gets talked about too much. Here's a relevant quote from the Garbage Project's founder, Dr. William Rathje, in response to the media scare-mongering of the late 1980s:

"The idea persists nevertheless that we are filling up landfills at an exponential rate, and that certain products with a high public profile [disposable diapers, fast-food packaging] are disproportionately responsible... We exhumed 16,000 pounds of garbage... only about a tenth of one percent of the landfill's contents by weight consisted of fast-food packaging. Less than one percent of the contents by weight was disposable diapers. The entire category of things made from plastic accounted for less than five percent of the landfill's contents by weight, and for only 12 percent by volume. The real culprit in every landfill is plain old paper -- non-fast-food paper, and mostly paper that isn't for packaging. Paper accounts for 40 to 50 percent of everything we throw away, both by weight and by volume."

Dr. Rathje's findings point out that the concept of biodegradation in landfills largely is a myth, as they found food and yard waste that had only biodegraded approximately 25% to 50% over 10-15 years. "The remainder of the refuse in landfills seems to retain its original weight, volume, and form. It is, in effect, mummified." Which he believes is a good thing, since it's only when things biodegrade that they begin to leach, and prior to 1985, many print inks contained lead that we wouldn't want leaching in the first place!

As for coliform bacteria, they can be found in the digestive tract, and feces, of any warm-blooded animal, including humans. Wherever there is poop, there are fecal coliform bacteria. What this means is that wherever farmers use animal manure for fertilizer, wherever livestock is kept, rainwater and snowmelt can wash coliforms into the water supply (especially irrigation water which is used in agricultural areas).

--Floaty

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No doubt the biodegradation of things is well understood and when things are specifically made to be biodegradable, it must mean enhanced biodegradabile

Manure was the universal fertilizer for 8,000 years. So it must be that there are many species of coloform bacteria with some being dangeous if injgested and some not depending on what animal it is associated with. To my knowledge, coloform bacteria threats refer to human e coli. In its proper place, the intestine, coloform are beneficial. It is when they got out of that part of the anatomy that they become a threat

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e. coli is found in every warm-blooded animal, there is no distinction between "human" and "animal" e. coli. Most e.coli outbreaks come from meat that has been improperly handled during the rendering process -- if the digestive tract of the animal is damaged during gutting, e.coli contamination of the meat is almost guaranteed. If the meat is then not properly sterilized, e.coli tainted meat then reaches the consumer. Even vegetables can deliver e.coli to the consumer if those vegetables were raised in an environment where they could be contaminated with feces. Often, that environment is an "organic" environment where manure has been applied as a fertilizer. To safely use manure as a fertilizer with regards to e. coli, it must be "cooked" through proper composting methods to a temperature of at least 55 degrees C (~130 F) for no less than two 5-day heating cycles, and then it optimally should be aged for a further 2-4 months. Not surprisingly, in an economic environment of cutting corners to save money and increase profit, this doesn't happen as it should.

Yes, manure has been used as fertilizer for thousands of years, but those have most certainly not been thousands of years without e. coli, dysentery, giardia, cryptosporidium, and countless other bacteria, viruses, and parasites.

Poop from any source, and food/drinking water, do not mix!

--Floaty

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Most of the what I have talked about are local "boil water" alerts fro e coli getting into the water table clearly identified as human coloform from dumps. If manure-borne e coli was as dangerous as human e coli, we would not be here to have this debate since manure was so prevalent a fertilzer, I mean #1 far and away, that the human species would have been wiped out. Just plai common sense will tell you that. So there must be some difference between animal e coli and the human strain

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  • 3 weeks later...

In response to ThomasinWVA regarding wicking in disposable diapers. In my experience disposables do a very poor job of wicking urine throughout the diaper. I have awakened to a half wet disposable and a wet bed while this seldom happens to me wearing cloth diapers and plastic pants. Good quality birdseye or gauze diapers will wick the urine throughout the entire diaper. When the diaper reaches the saturation point then it will leak. The trick is to learn how much diaper one needs to wear to make it through the night or to the next change. With disposables only the area being wet and the lowest point of the diaper will absorb urine. Once it becomes saturated the rest of the urine will pool and leak. I have yet to use a disposable that has the wicking qualities of cotton. Guaze is the best followed by birdseye. I'm not fond of flannel diapers because the cotton weave is tighter than gauze and birdseye. The tighter weave takes longer to absorb and wick the diaper throughout the diaper. If one floods their diaper then flannel will tend to leak easier because the urine pools longer until it is soaked into the diaper. I'm not a flooder so this doesn't make much of a difference to me. Yes you do feel the wetness more with cloth than you do with disposables. To me this is a good thing because I can tell just how wet my diaper is. It is my indicator as to when I need a change. I tend to wear disposables for longer periods because they don't feel as wet. I get more leaks and rashes due to this. I've tried all kinds of disposables as I wear then when I travel but I have yet to find one that works as well as cloth diapers do. Cloth is more comfortable, less-expensive, much more dependable (with a well fitting pair of plastic pants) and I seldom get rashes with cloth diapers. Plus I am primarily a side sleeper which means if I wear a disposable to bed I need to cover them with a cotton brief and then a pair of plastic pants.

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I'm 100% a cloth diaper person, so I've never tried disposable diapers. However, I was under the impression that disposables contained a chemical that absorbs urine and turns it into a paste and keeps it in suspension so the diaper won't leak. (Sodium polyacrylate is the chemical, if you want to get technical about it). It seems to me that baby diapers actually work better than diapers made for adults. What gives? (I'll keep my cloth diapers and PUL waterproof pants, thank you).

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Well, if a diaper is enlarged, it is enlarged in square inches or centimetrs. urine comes in volume which is cubic inches or centimeters "Square" is two-dimensional nad cubic is three. The difference in how much an adult wets more than a baby is exponential. Cloth diapers can be put in in multiples

Also the difference between a disposable and cloth is that because the wet is turned into a gel, it stays where it is so it doesn not make sense to try and cover the whole diaper with SAP, only the part that goes from the waist in front to the waist in back between the legs. with a cloth diaper, especially one that is the same thickness throughout. the wet goes right to the outsice to the rubber panties and along the outside or, if one is double diapers it goes through the two layers to the rubber panties and then along the outside of the whole diaper including the sides. Depending on what I have had to drink, after 6 hours the outside of my diaper is wet just about all over and pretty wet between the legs with the top front, back and sides being a bit damp

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The case for cloth diapers is pointless for me despite there being many inaccuracies in that article, because I like disposable diapers for their feel. I tried cloth diapers and it just does not do it for me. I am sure that is the case for most people here when they chose what diapers they used. End of story.

The mention regarding the materials used peaked my interest. The biodegradable polymers are a few years off. There are some you can use low for temperature applications, so for diapers they would be ok, but there is not much for high temperature applications and none of them have any decent mechanical strength yet. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the SAP, it is difficult to achieve biodegradability; however, there are other ways that they can be degraded in the environment, so there are options. There is some work in the development of biodegradable SAPs, so we'll see where that goes.

I would warn everyone here that e coli is an issue where ever the poop goes and it does not matter where the poop comes from. I don't think it is going to make much of a difference if you use cloth diapers or disposable diapers in that regard, because you still have waste water and landfill run off will always be a problem until they are gone for good. The reason you probably have noticed a rise in e coli cases can be due to many things, but I would really take a look at the conditions our cattle are grown in these days before blaming something else. Often, I have seen cattle grown in cramp conditions, so the shit really piles up. The runoff from these places can contaminate crops and water sources as well as the meat itself.

Most of the what I have talked about are local "boil water" alerts fro e coli getting into the water table clearly identified as human coloform from dumps. If manure-borne e coli was as dangerous as human e coli, we would not be here to have this debate since manure was so prevalent a fertilzer, I mean #1 far and away, that the human species would have been wiped out. Just plai common sense will tell you that. So there must be some difference between animal e coli and the human strain

Christine, it would be presumptuous to overlook the fact that e coli strains responsible for some of the recent outbreaks have been genetically traced to e coli in manure from specific cattle farms. What you don't know about fertilization with manure is even historically, they always compost that shit before using. The result of that is the pathogens responsible for illnesses, such as e coli, are eradicated. That is why we have standards for the composting of manure and other organic wastes if it is to be used for fertilization, because incomplete composting allows the pathogens to contaminate the crops. Any farmer would tell you that fertilizing with fresh manure is too rich in nitrogen for the plants and leads to poor crops anyways.

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Now there are two issues here

1. What I have discussed as "boil water" situations is usually local and attributed to human sources and associated with dumps by the local authorities

2. This newly emerging discussion. This is unrelated to what I brought up about "biol water", but nonetheless interesting:

Christine, it would be presumptuous to overlook the fact that e coli strains responsible for some of the recent outbreaks have been genetically traced to e coli in manure from specific cattle farms.

I never herd that mentioned in any the reports or discussions about the nationwide e coli outbreaks. Usually what I hear is that they trace it back to specific places where the produce is grown and in an overwhelming number of reports do not mention the details of the e coli. So this level of knowledge would require "inside sources"

What you don't know about fertilization with manure is even historically, they always compost that shit before using. The result of that is the pathogens responsible for illnesses, such as e coli, are eradicated. That is why we have standards for the composting of manure and other organic wastes if it is to be used for fertilization, because incomplete composting allows the pathogens to contaminate the crops. Any farmer would tell you that fertilizing with fresh manure is too rich in nitrogen for the plants and leads to poor crops anyways.

So you must be saying that in the cases of the large scale outbreaks, the e coli was inmproperly composted. Why are you addressing this to me since it was someone else who inserted the ideas that these large outbreaks were from cattle e coli ? That was news to me AFAIK these alerts pertained to human e coli migrating from dumps via runoff

This does raise another issue. if runoff is brinigng material from diapers into the aquifer. would not some of that material include SAP that hs mixed in with the other material? Would not that be toxic or harmful, given the concerns over Sodium, which I take to be part of the SAP (I do not share the specific Sodium concerns since the evelss of that element would be homeopathic at best; therefore meaningless unless someone is really trying to sodium-contaminated the water table)?

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So you must be saying that in the cases of the large scale outbreaks, the e coli was inmproperly composted. Why are you addressing this to me since it was someone else who inserted the ideas that these large outbreaks were from cattle e coli ? That was news to me AFAIK these alerts pertained to human e coli migrating from dumps via runoff

No, the problem is more direct than that. Some how the e coli from the cattle manure contaminates the crop and this could be due to ran water run off, transmission by contact, or other means. How the e coli from the cattle farms contaminates the crops is not clear yet, we just know specifically which cattle farms contribute. I think if a farmer fertilized with manure that was not composted enough, he would know because his crops would not live. It is unlikely it is due to improper composting.

This does raise another issue. if runoff is brinigng material from diapers into the aquifer. would not some of that material include SAP that hs mixed in with the other material? Would not that be toxic or harmful, given the concerns over Sodium, which I take to be part of the SAP (I do not share the specific Sodium concerns since the evelss of that element would be homeopathic at best; therefore meaningless unless someone is really trying to sodium-contaminated the water table)?

I would say maybe. Keep in mind that SAPs are very large molecules. That is why they are called polymers. However, they are extremely hydrophillic. Whether or not they would settle in water I do not know. What I do know is SAPs are chemically inert, so it is unlikely they would contaminate anything or cause any harm. They are not toxic. If run off from land fills is a problem for you, you should be focused like a laser on microorganisms and more likely chemical contaminates such as battery acid, lead, etc.

In regards to e coli from human wastes, I see just as many problems with septic tanks and waste water drainage as landfill run off. Leaky septic tanks can contaminate your well if that is your source of water among other things. I have seen them leaking into lakes as well, resulting in poor water conditions.

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