Woried About News Getting Out In The Work Place

[Elfy]

I work in a factory and although everyone there seems friendly enough but at the moment there have been a lot of innocuous comments and jokes (not aimed at me, since only one person there knows my sexuality) about being gay and gay people in general. I know this is to be expected in this kind of place but its all starting to grate on me a little.

The one person who knows is the head of trainees who is a very nice man and very easy to talk to. (in fact it turned out after I told him I was seeing a guy, his son is in a civil partnership with another man!) But this man warned me that a lot of the people who work there are either from a different generation or are close minded and it would be best not to advertise my sexuality.

I understood that, but rumours are starting to circulate that the reason I keep going away for the weekend to see a "friend" is actually to see a boyfriend... They are right.

I was joking around with another trainee today and he made a comment that implied I was gay so I went along with it as a joke, obviously making it a joke by being overly sarcastic.

But he suddenly turned a bit more serious and said "well I wouldn't let that get out round here".

-------------------

I dont know what to do!

I wouldn't say I'm scared by people finding out but there are 200+ people at the factory and if word got out about me I don't think I could take the shame, the comments, the looks and everything else

Quite a few people there have a criminal record and some of them are for violent crimes.

[Darkfinn]

If you feel you are being harassed there are a number of places you can call to report sexual harassment. It can lead to huge legal trouble for your employer. Most companies know this and will quickly nip any sexual wisecracking in the bud.

[Elfy]

But for that to happen I'd need to come out to certain people and then when I do that and get people in trouble I've made myself an outcast.

I don't think I'm being harassed since they don't know my sexuality but when they make jokes and such it hurts.

[Darkfinn]

Even making jokes can qualify as harassment. You don't have to be gay to be offended by gay jokes.

[sarah_ab]

easy solution don't talk about going away every weekend... don't talk about going out to dinner... better yet don't share your social activities at all... Its very easy to talk about things you do ... tv shows, movies, books, sports.. and really give very little info about yourself....

[Bettypooh]

I agree with Sarah- you do not have to discuss your life away from work at work. I am a very personal person, and at my age it is rather expected for me to be married or have been married before. It is also expected that I have children somewhere. None of those has happened, so some people perceive me as being Gay. TBH I am Bi-curious but I've never been there and do not go much in that direction. I prefer to leave such matters to fate- what is meant to happen will happen anyway whether I try ro make them happen or not. A few closed friends have asked me directly if I am Gay and I have told them "No" becaust that is true. If they know me (and they do) they know I don't lie to friends. Whether they believe what I say or not does not matter- that is always beyond my control. Many people have found (and some to their chagrin) that I am not who they thought I was- their preconcieved notions about me are as far from true as possible. They are fools, preferring a world where their perceptions are always right and not considering that it is possible for everyone to be wrong at times. Being foolish they are often wrong, yet they will never see or believe that so I don't bother to waste my time trying to educate them. Only when they fail completely will they begin to see clearly. With fools I prefer the hands-off approach: let then be that way and they will cause their complete failure sooner. Since that is what it will take for them to become better people it is good for me to do that.

This world is full of intolerant and prejudiced people who have yet to learn that diversity is the basis of all human life. Everyone must be in this world and we must deal with them at some level. I choose to deal with them as little as I can, always using any chance I get to open their eyes to this fact without attaching anything else to it. I have been the target of prejudiced hate. I have lost jobs and been demoted because of who I am. I must work to survive so I have chosen to wall off most of my personal life from my work life. My personal life has no bearing on my work save for what others decide to think about me. That is something they will do regardless so I'd rather not have them that deepply in my personal life. I have but one personal life to live but I've had many, many jobs. I see my job as being transient- it is here for now but that can end quickly for many reasons other than my sexuality or gender. I can manage myself and my job seperately; the real problem is with those who cannot do that. So let them go- in the end they will look like the fool they are anyway, and that will be a good thing. In the meantime there are always things you have to put up with to have a job- none are perfect. Even though it hurts just let the fools be foold and don't give them anything to use against you, for this type of person cannot gain or make progress on their own. They know that and will try to make gains by putting other people down, hoping to look better themelves for doing that. It will bite them in the butt, but only if you let it.

You have nothing to be ashamed of but you don't have to announce anything to the world you don't want to either. It's your choice and in so choosing you're not doing anything that everyeone else isn't doing themselves. If you want to be open then the law protects you- but there are ways around the law and not everyone abided by the law. You have to decide whether you want to risk the possible consequenses of being yourself openly or not. Nobody has the right to force that decision on you and with a bit of planning you can reduce the power some have to pry that out of you. Discrimination is very hard to prove, but in the cases where it has been proven the cost is very dear to those who erred. Companies will generally not take that risk, but the people they employ might.

My own policy about my personal life becomes known when someone in business pries deeper than I want them to into my personal life- I tell them that not only does it have nothing to do with my work and is thus irrelevant, it is only a fool who intertwines business and personal life where one becomes the other. I'm a nice person, but ruthless when business calls for that. It is my best business strength and it would be weakened if I let my personal life become part of it. Business is business, and home life doesn't belong there.

Bettypooh

[Saschadzg]

I'm a nice person, but ruthless when business calls for that. It is my best business strength and it would be weakened if I let my personal life become part of it. Business is business, and home life doesn't belong there.

Generation facebook does not know the difference....

[Elfy]

easy solution don't talk about going away every weekend... don't talk about going out to dinner... better yet don't share your social activities at all... Its very easy to talk about things you do ... tv shows, movies, books, sports.. and really give very little info about yourself....

But when I'm directly asked about it it is hard to deflect the questions. They are curious about me and as I have said there are already rumours.

But even if we ignore whether or not I tell anyone anything, I still here the comments, the jokes and the homophobia which hurts me even if it isn't directed at me. I feel so different to everyone else who works there.

I know the law is on my side and if I recorded conversations I could probably get all the people on my section fired, but if I got even one into trouble then it would come back to me as I'm isolating myself and will be seen as a snitch and an outsider.

[sarah_ab]

no one should be directly asking you if you are gay at work. When someone asks say "why do you wanna go out on a date?" don't say it super defensively... and with a smart alec grin... if they keep going say "seriously, why are you so interesting me ? its like you want to date me or something".... if that doesn't work, then the guy really IS interested in you!..

if the jokes and comments are not about you and are just people shooting the shit.. then yep you have two choices.. take it for what it is.. people shooting the shit.. i mean my ex husband and still best friend is gay, i have many friends of many different sexual orientations and gender identities.. and i still will say shit like "dude thats so gay" and make funny 'pun's' related to gay stuff... People make jokes... sometimes off color... no in an ideal word it wouldn't be in the workplace..

and yes you do have every right to report to HR, and i am in no way saying you shouldn't... however sometimes when we are overly sensitive about something, we start to take things too seriously, start to let little things get to us taht are innocent and harmless in a sense... you might need to take a step back and realize that this might actually be your coworkers way of fitting you in....

if it is outright harasment if they are calling you fag, fairy, queer, etc... and treating you outright differently because of your sexuality or assumed sexuality, then yes go to HR..

[Eir]

Ugh. I have experienced this myself. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE GAY FOR ASSHOLES TO MAKE WISECRACKS!!! This is unacceptable, you need to go to HR. I have been at one time Sexually Harrassed over the phone by some joker. Make records of who says what and when.

[LilFozzyJ5]

Some good advice there Sarah, and DarkFinn has a point also, you dont have to be whatever the butt of the joke is to be offended, and you dont have to be the person that is subjected to harrassment or bullying to say something.

People can be crude, rude and unfeeling in the workplace, especially in say, factories, garages, building sites and the forces. Most of the time as Sarah says its just shooting the breeze, if however theses comments continue in your direction sarah is right again, you can do one of two things, laugh it off and hit em back with a wise crack, or go and see HR.

There are times when people can be a little over sensitive as Bettypooh mentioned. Only you can know if this is the case.

I was in the RAF when i was doing my college course and I was the only mobster there, the rest were all civvies. I was in the mess hall with them cracking jokes and having a laugh, nothing was taboo... there was jokes about irishmen, disasters, different races, you name it... and everyone was laughing, including one chap until i told two jokes about disabled people.

He got all high almighty and indignent, saying it was terrible and his sister works with disabled people.

Well first I pointed out that all the other subjects seemed fair game, and then I explained both my parents are disabled (Have been for quite a few years) and they found it funny...

After that he shut up a little.

Im not suggesting this is the case here but it shows how someone can 'bring' attention to themselves. You may have laughed along at jokes about other subjects... but reacted differently about the gay jokes and comments... I dont know... But its possible, and its also possible they noticed.

Pack mentality and bullying exists, it will always exist as long as two human beings walk upon this earth. it will neveer be stamped out, however if it is affecting you badly or you fear for yourself, then you can and should stand up for yourself and see HR. There are things you can do.

Ultimately only you and those who witness the events can comment on whether it was malicious or taking things too far.

If ya wanna chat about it mate, you know where I am. I hope you can sort it out, as I know you have really started to enjoy your work and the pride and feeling of accomplishment it has given you.

hugs

fozzy

xx

[redneck diaper boy]

Your sexuality is your business. Most HR departments have an anti-harassment policy. Where I work, harassing anyone will get you fired.

[drynot]

I'll tell you right now though...in order to make it work in some of these places you need to grow a 'thick' skin. Don't put up with outright blatant harassment but some harmless joking isn't too much to get all riled up about. You need to know your audience and just remember that the average blue collar worker probably doesn't give two shits about your sexual orientation...

For the record I've worked in a number of factories over the years. Some workplaces were toxic...as in the people there were assholes...and some were quite pleasant. A sense of humour goes far in these types of places.....

[Guest littlesissy]

I'm just going to say this. It applies to the harassers also:

Shouldn't a place of business be for people to do work and make money? Why do people feel that you can spend time on social aspects while your employer is paying you to work. I would be pissed if I was this business owner and have to deal with this kind of crap while I'm paying people to produce. it's a huge waste of time and a distraction to profit. Oh, now we have to pay staff to create a new policy in the policy manual and then pay people to enforce it.

Just leave your private life out of work. I would also terminate the other employees that waste time on being concerned about your private life...

[wetman]

Elfking, first of all, it's not your problem, you are not doing anything wrong.

You are probably more interesting as long as nobody is really sure one way or the other than if it's a well known fact that you like boys more. Confirming the issue to a few people would spread the knowledge around and take the novelty value away. I suspect that everyone 'knows' anyway, they just don't dare not to make a fool of you, because you know how it is: if you don't hate the gay, then you must be one as well.

After it's 'official' there will be, no doubt, a brief time where the superbutch heteros call you "Oi, buttfucker, gimme that screwdriver!" instead of John George or Alan. As long as it's not physical, ignore as much as you can, it'll pass. You will still always be the 'gay guy', but you are the 'gay guy' now anyway. At least the sniggering behind your back will decrease, and it might just be that people who really can't live with homosexual people will get fired because they might think that it's now OK to swear at you all the time.

Sounds harsh, but might be an idea to try; I've seen it work for a few guys.

Nevertheless, whatever you do, don't let on that you are also active in the AB/DL section. It will automatically mark you up as a pedophile with the class of people that you have to work with, and they might just take that outside the workplace.

hth, & good luck

[Elfy]

I'm just going to say this. It applies to the harassers also:

Shouldn't a place of business be for people to do work and make money? Why do people feel that you can spend time on social aspects while your employer is paying you to work. I would be pissed if I was this business owner and have to deal with this kind of crap while I'm paying people to produce. it's a huge waste of time and a distraction to profit. Oh, now we have to pay staff to create a new policy in the policy manual and then pay people to enforce it.

Just leave your private life out of work. I would also terminate the other employees that waste time on being concerned about your private life...

Because there is always social interaction at work...

Its how the day goes by, we all work and hit the targets set for us but that doesn't mean we can't still communicate!

"Oh, now we have to pay staff to create a new policy in the policy manual and then pay people to enforce it." I hope I read that wrong or are you suggesting that there should be no policy to ensure people are safe from hommophobic attacks at work?

[Elfy]

Elfking, first of all, it's not your problem, you are not doing anything wrong.

You are probably more interesting as long as nobody is really sure one way or the other than if it's a well known fact that you like boys more. Confirming the issue to a few people would spread the knowledge around and take the novelty value away. I suspect that everyone 'knows' anyway, they just don't dare not to make a fool of you, because you know how it is: if you don't hate the gay, then you must be one as well.

After it's 'official' there will be, no doubt, a brief time where the superbutch heteros call you "Oi, buttfucker, gimme that screwdriver!" instead of John George or Alan. As long as it's not physical, ignore as much as you can, it'll pass. You will still always be the 'gay guy', but you are the 'gay guy' now anyway. At least the sniggering behind your back will decrease, and it might just be that people who really can't live with homosexual people will get fired because they might think that it's now OK to swear at you all the time.

Sounds harsh, but might be an idea to try; I've seen it work for a few guys.

Nevertheless, whatever you do, don't let on that you are also active in the AB/DL section. It will automatically mark you up as a pedophile with the class of people that you have to work with, and they might just take that outside the workplace.

hth, & good luck

I would never tell them about my abdl side!

I came close to just letting it out of the bag today but everytime I reach a point where I could tell them I lose my nerve and the moment passes.

[Guest littlesissy]

"Oh, now we have to pay staff to create a new policy in the policy manual and then pay people to enforce it." I hope I read that wrong or are you suggesting that there should be no policy to ensure people are safe from hommophobic attacks at work?

I think the generic anti-harrasment policy would suffice. we don't need a special one for each sexual, race, religious, ethnic, gender group...

[Elfy]

Then I don't know what you are worried about since the same person would enforce them all.

I'm certain that if it wasn't written in there and then a problem came up they would use the "but theres nothing against in the company policy" as an excuse!

[LilFozzyJ5]

blimey sissy, you idea of business seems bloody harsh and totarian, im glad i dont work for a company that you might run...not allowed to talk, i mean i could understand it if it was a library or something but jeez....

Next it will be no smoke breaks, no toilet breaks, and no one can work here unless they have blue eyes and blond hair...

Whatever you decide to do Elfy, I hope you can resolve this to your satisfaction, and no you got plenty of support if you need us.

hugs

fozzy

[Guest littlesissy]

blimey sissy, you idea of business seems bloody harsh and totarian, im glad i dont work for a company that you might run...not allowed to talk, i mean i could understand it if it was a library or something but jeez....

Next it will be no smoke breaks, no toilet breaks, and no one can work here unless they have blue eyes and blond hair...

HE HE HE (Littlesissy, straightens his pirate hat and holds his sword up) I run a tight ship!

No I allow talking and socializing, but good grief, why does it have to devolve into harrassment and under classes? It's a big waste of time and money. Isn't that why everyone goes to work for? Don't lie, like you really get up in the morning everyday to go to a place to work just so you can socialize...

Wow, must everything point to N*ZI Germany? I'm definately far from that! You can't find a post on here from me that would lead anyone to think that.

[sarah_ab]

as humans not only are we driven by the need for basic necessities such as food, water, shelter (which now we have to work to purchase) but we are also driven by intrinsic needs, one of those being contact with other humans. As our society (and i speak of western society) has evolved, not only have our idea of basic needs (food is no longer shrubs and bugs, but filet mignon and hollandaise sauce) evolved, but so too has our idea of what constitutes social contact. No longer is it enough to simple be physically near another human, maybe exchanging grunts or signals for where to go for food, but now we need to 'connect' on what we consider a more 'meaningful' level....

social norms evolve, clearly... and one such social norm is what is considered 'acceptable' in the workplace. In the western society we are highly individualistic (as opposed to collectivist like many asian countries) and as such, we seek to spout our individuality by sharing with others our likes, dislikes, our experiences in life. This is done with everyone we meet, not just outside of the workplace. Also in our new world, where many people's lives are dominated by their job, this IS theonly social outlet for them, working 12-15 hour days, the only contact they have iwth others is in the work place.

Again, as the western culture has evolved, so too has what motivates individuals in that culture. Socialization, the sharing of our 'stories' is a big part of our society.

[Bettypooh]

Sarah, you put it well once again Human contact is a psycological human need, and socializing is the glue which holds societies together. It is also the sounding board for one's thoughts- and that's not necessarily so good In America where free thought is highly valued one can say what one pleases legally, so long as nobody is being threatened by or through that speech- that is what our society wants. In some other places (especially those where only one concept or religion is legally allowed), saying the wrong thing, even if it is right and proper, can cause you much legal greif Worse is that such societies end up killing the very thing which makes humanity so valuable compared to other animal species- our diversity

One of my favorite sayings is that "A genius is essentially a non-conformist." (Max Rafferty, ca. 1960) Society tends to try to make all of it's people comform to whatever it thinks is the norm, berating those who are different for no reason except that they are different Sometimes enough wisdom comes through law to force needed changes on our society- the banning of slavery, women's suffrage, and in this case the legalization of human sexual diversity come to mind The propriety of law forces these changes onto it's society for the good of said society as a whole, even though some may not like those changes Time and again these kinds of changes have proven their correctness in how much better our society has become afterward. But sadly, laws do not take effect until they are broken; and by then someone has suffered harm Anti-discrimination laws are intended to stop wrongs before someone comes to harm, and to me at least that seems like a good idea so long as they are applied with wisdom and care. Sadly that doesn't always happen- humans err and we always will.

The usual error is where the law does not protect those it was designed to protect as well as it should Being Gay can still get you fired; it's just that they will find another reason to fire you for, and this often happens even when being Gay has nothing to do with the job. This is how those in our society who wish to resist the change which the law and society as a whole deems proper operate Such persons are decievers at heart, and thus are bad for our society.

Balancing the legal restriction against discrimination is our concept of freedom of beliefs; you may think whatever you will and you may share those thoughts openly so long as you do not cause others harm from so doing Nobody is forced to listen to you or agree with you. But in a workplace you usually do not have the freedom to remove yourself from hearing that which is being said by others; this is why the laws against discrimination are so critical in the workplace. And in our too-litigous society, companies quickly realize that they can be held accountable for the permitted actions of their employees when they are involved in company affairs. Thus they write policies designed to reduce that legal liability, even to the point of restricting speech or sharing of concepts unrelated to work. This is not improper as many claim because you are not forced to endure those restrictions; you are free to leave or to never join with that company To some degree, companies are also allowed to enforce policies not directly related to company affairs when they indirectly impact the company or it's employees adversely. By law no company may condone or overlook any illegal activities which occur in the workplace but proving this when it happens is very, very hard to do. If social restrictions are needed to prevent illegal activities like workplace discrimination, companies may do that legally because it is correct and proper in the eyes of the law, as the law reflects the will of our society as a whole- just as it should.

I know personally what Elfking is going through. I was once the #2 person in a small company because in the first year of my employment I was able to double the work production while at the same time reducing the time and effort it took to do the job. I was financially rewarded in the form of bonuses for how well I'd done, and my salary was slightly raised too. The company owner was an old friend who I trusted implicitly. He knew many Gay and Lesbian people and had no prejudice against them- some of those were also mutual friends between us. I was beginning my transition as a TG though I was very careful to keep that out of the workplace and away from the people we worked for. I knew there would come a time when the double-life would have to end, and not wanting to just dump that on an old friend I privately explained everything to him, giving him my word that I would never let it affect the company busines in any way and that when the time for total change came to me I would first resign and walk away so that he and his company would come to no harm. He understood and said he supported me, though he preferred to not be involved in that part of my life. He assured me that I would be free to continue as-is at work and that my job would remain the same so long as my life wasn't impacting the company adversely in any way. A very fair deal to me, and I deeply appreciated this friend for his understanding and help.

My job and wages continued but the bonuses stopped. An inexperienced person was hired for me to teach the business to, and I did that as best I could. They were nowhere near as good as me but they had potential to approach that level in time. Then that person was given the company vehicle which I had been driving, and no vehicle was offered in replacement to me. Shortly thereafter this person was given my job position and I was kicked down to the bottom rung of the ladder, no matter that I had made my old friend tens of thousands of dollars more profit than he had been capable of making before I showed up there. Whatever- I still had a secure job and my regular wages and for me that was enough. I still gave my job my all because it was the right thing to do. The owner had one small habit which held back production. I had discussed this with him and he agreed that he needed to do better- and for a while he did. The company had never made so much money, by his own account I had single-handedly more than doubled his profits at that point. Then he began to slip back into his old non-productive habit. I became aggrevated at his unwillingness to to do better as it was adversely affecing my work output. I showed him this and at first he agreed, but he didn't change his old habit. Then he began betrating me for my reduced output. Again I showed him that he was the cause for that. He didn't like the truth. One week before Christmas, with no warning and him knowing that I hadn't bought presents yet I was unceremoniously fired for "loss of production". Yeah- right. What a ba$tard it takes to do something like that.

We both knew the reason I was fired and it had nothing to do with production, for as all this happened he became more and more derisive of gender-diverse people, making jokes about them on the job, using the word 'sissy' frequently which he'd never done before, and encouraging similar behavior from all the other employees. One of them actually asked me privately why I put up with this kind of crap- the very guy I'd trained who now had my old position and was now making more money than I was. I told him that I was the kind of person who never gave up hope and that perhaps in time things would get better. He shook his head and walked off, never offering to try to help me even when he knew I was being wronged. Whatever.

Elfking, all I can say to you is that you have a decision to make and it's a big one. You know all the possible outcomes of that choice. You can either try to keep your personal life out of your workplace and hope that works well, all the time putting up with the crap you're seeing; or you can risk telling the truth and standing by what is right and proper, not knowing how it may affect your job no matter how well you've done it, but knowing for sure that some people are going to hate you afterward because they're wrong and they refuse to see it that way. Regardless I will support you here and wish you well, for it is your life to live as you want to live it.

Bettypooh

[LilFozzyJ5]

HE HE HE (Littlesissy, straightens his pirate hat and holds his sword up) I run a tight ship!

No I allow talking and socializing, but good grief, why does it have to devolve into harrassment and under classes? It's a big waste of time and money. Isn't that why everyone goes to work for? Don't lie, like you really get up in the morning everyday to go to a place to work just so you can socialize...

Wow, must everything point to N*ZI Germany? I'm definately far from that! You can't find a post on here from me that would lead anyone to think that.

well yeah, your last one. enough that I felt the need to point it out.

and well considering the crimes against humainty that were carried out by that nation during that time, yes of course, any comparison of a totarian attitude is going to be weighed up against the worst example of it we have...

Why both comparing you to a bully of a teacher in a class room, keeping everyone silent. It doesnt quite have the same impact does it.

but you are entitled to your opinion, Im just glad I dont live in the same place as you, let alone work for you.

[KittenAB]

Actually, littlesissy is being quite logical. There should be no need for special circumstances. At work, you work, that's it. Your opinion on other people should never influence your work place, so a general harassment policy is perfect. Also, a place of work should not be filled with too many outside influences. "If you have time to lean, you have time to clean" was a motto for many places I worked at, and it was true, there is always work to be done, that's why it's called work. If you have enough time on your hands to be socializing when on the clock, your job is truly not very important ... unless you're actually paid to do that. No one should fear their personal life getting them hurt on the job, and often the best way businesses can avoid this is to essentially outlaw personal conversation while on the clock.