Real Children

[paradox]

I agree with the duck, kids are delicious with ritz crackers. Btw I also agree with ashley, spanking your kids is hitting your kids which is abuse. Besides emotional abuse will work a lot better and last a lot longer! Just tell your daughter nobody loves a fat girl and make fun of her weight. Why scar them for now when you can scar them for life! Seriously though I avoid kids, I will never have kids, and since I do not lie to children in the first place parents do not like me =P "what are drugs" "the thing mommy and daddy do to forget they had you!"

[ArtemisEnterri]

I agree with the duck, kids are delicious with ritz crackers. Btw I also agree with ashley, spanking your kids is hitting your kids which is abuse. Besides emotional abuse will work a lot better and last a lot longer! Just tell your daughter nobody loves a fat girl and make fun of her weight. Why scar them for now when you can scar them for life! Seriously though I avoid kids, I will never have kids, and since I do not lie to children in the first place parents do not like me =P "what are drugs" "the thing mommy and daddy do to forget they had you!"

With your attitude, I hope you never have kids, cuz you'd ruin their lives with your attitude. You should go get sterilized to make sure you don't infect the rest of the world with your twisted attitude.

Mental/Emotional Abuse is a really sick way to treat your kids. Parents are supposed to LOVE their kids, but what I've seen so many times over the years is that some people are viewing their kids as a mistake in their lives, and resent the fact that the children exist. And whenever something goes wrong during their day (at work, at the store, in traffic, etc) even if the child(ren) had nothing to do with that problem, the parent vents their anger on the children, which results in abuse. I know this because my father did it to me. He kept a good image at the office, but let all his tensions out when he got home, and if I got in the way... Hell, my dad had such a bad temper that the slightest mistake I made would send him in a rage some times... (Some of my mom's friends have even asked over the years "Are they his kids? Because he sure doesn't act like it.")

The people who say "spanking = hitting, and hitting = abuse" are being stupid. Think about this: when kids are playing around, they tend to hit each other (particularly if they are playing boxing or wrestling), are you gonna call THAT abuse? Abuse is hitting that doesn't stop until the child is bruised, bloody, has broken bones, or in some cases has died. DO NOT PUT A SIMPLE 2 SWAT SPANKING INTO THAT CATEGORY BECAUSE IT DOES NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER, FIT THAT DEFINITION!!!!!

Events like Columbine happened because parents did not pay enough attention to their children, and did not PROPERLY DISCIPLINE their children when bad behaviors happened.

[tris]

This is the beauty of human nature, folks; it's so dynamic, and we all have different approaches to life, love, and how to deal with it all. The truest measure of how well we do as people is shown only in how we use our experiences to love ourselves and others.

Beat your kids. Or don't beat 'em. It makes all the difference, yet it also has no effect whatsoever. In any case, your hindsight will always be 21/20. It's your foresight that needs both development, and compromise.

[Vic]

I love kids, I have nieces and nephews, and a son, who, at twelve, is almost as tall as me. I've never seen a reason to spank a kid, there are so many other ways to correct bad behavior.

I kick Buzz's ass when he has it coming. I tell him "go start on the dishes!", if he tells me "no" I say "once you're done with them get the bathroom clean". It changes his attitude pretty quickly. We also remove priveledges such as time for vidoe games, TV or being on the computer.

I tell him "you doing extra chores, or chores you don't like, is me kicking your butt!". He understands this, and things have always worked out well. He has had some colossal screw ups before, and I kept him busy in the house and out in the yard doing chores for the entire weekend, I told him, "if you're awake, you're gonna be working".

I was abused as I grew up, by both of my parents, so were my siblings. I have seen first hand what it does to kids, so I learned from their mistakes.

There are other ways to discipline kids without corporal punishment.

Peace,

Vic

[Guest NaughtyAshes]

I love kids, I have nieces and nephews, and a son, who, at twelve, is almost as tall as me. I've never seen a reason to spank a kid, there are so many other ways to correct bad behavior.

I kick Buzz's ass when he has it coming. I tell him "go start on the dishes!", if he tells me "no" I say "once you're done with them get the bathroom clean". It changes his attitu8de pretty quickly.

I tell him "you doing extra chores, or chores you don't like is me kicking your butt!". He understands this, and things have always worked out well. I was abused as I grew up, by both of my parents, so were my siblings. I have seen first hand what it does to kids, so I learned from their mistakes.

There are other ways to discipline kids without corporal punishment.

Peace,

Vic

Amen. Only the ignorant and irrational have to resort to their fists. You can reason with a child it just takes effort.

[paradox]

The people who say "spanking = hitting, and hitting = abuse" are being stupid. Think about this: when kids are playing around, they tend to hit each other (particularly if they are playing boxing or wrestling), are you gonna call THAT abuse? Abuse is hitting that doesn't stop until the child is bruised, bloody, has broken bones, or in some cases has died. DO NOT PUT A SIMPLE 2 SWAT SPANKING INTO THAT CATEGORY BECAUSE IT DOES NOT, NOR HAS IT EVER, FIT THAT DEFINITION!!!!!

Events like Columbine happened because parents did not pay enough attention to their children, and did not PROPERLY DISCIPLINE their children when bad behaviors happened.

Well technically abuse is highly subjective based on the individual. Just because bob thinks his dad was playing with him and rough housing does not mean that Tom thought the same way. So yes Tom may thought his father went overboard with a few swats, took it to heart, and developed problems. As where bob took it as nothing of the like and grew up fine. Without having a baseline for everyones survival instincts and how they view actions subjectively you have to start at the lowest common denominator which would be any physical or emotional violence aimed at the child. Thanks for flipping out on me, I guess you missed the sarcastic overtone, which is fine it is the lowest form of humor after all. I did clearly state I am never having children. Do not fret I know I lack morality, I am destructive, I am cruel, and all those horrible traits people frown on. Saying I should be castrated does come off a bit repetitive considering I already stated that I am never having children. Last while we do indeed have different views and do not see eye to eye, I show your view with acceptance even if I disagree, you show nothing but hostility even though I thought the joke was obvious. I applaud your ability to jump to conclusions and in further dealings I will make sure that I put a disclaimer stating "warning dark humor ahead".

[ArtemisEnterri]

Amen. Only the ignorant and irrational have to resort to their fists. You can reason with a child it just takes effort.

What planet were you born on?

Until they reach the age of 7 or 8, they are TOO YOUNG to DISCUSS and REASON with. And even after that point, you get the strong-willed children who want to do things their own way and don't WANT to listen to adults.

Are you a parent? Have YOU ever had to deal with a toddler who doesn't understand the meaning of "No"??? If you have not been a parent, then you have no understanding of the situation at all. How can you reason with a 1 or 2 year old toddler who barely knows how to talk, let alone have any form of coherent conversation?????

Well technically abuse is highly subjective based on the individual. Just because bob thinks his dad was playing with him and rough housing does not mean that Tom thought the same way. So yes Tom may thought his father went overboard with a few swats, took it to heart, and developed problems. As where bob took it as nothing of the like and grew up fine. Without having a baseline for everyones survival instincts and how they view actions subjectively you have to start at the lowest common denominator which would be any physical or emotional violence aimed at the child. Thanks for flipping out on me, I guess you missed the sarcastic overtone, which is fine it is the lowest form of humor after all. I did clearly state I am never having children. Do not fret I know I lack morality, I am destructive, I am cruel, and all those horrible traits people frown on. Saying I should be castrated does come off a bit repetitive considering I already stated that I am never having children. Last while we do indeed have different views and do not see eye to eye, I show your view with acceptance even if I disagree, you show nothing but hostility even though I thought the joke was obvious. I applaud your ability to jump to conclusions and in further dealings I will make sure that I put a disclaimer stating "warning dark humor ahead".

Sorry, I was quite annoyed with certain other statements by other posters and went a little crazy because I missed the sarcasm. I apologize for my reaction.

And I agree with you, abuse is a SUBJECTIVE term. One person may think a single-swat spanking is too much, others think it is not enough. It all depends on the situation and the background of the people involved. But I personally get angry by all the namby-pamby, wishy-washy, touchy-feely bullsh!t being spread around these days in the name of "protecting the children". Back in the 40s, 50s, 60s, etc (even WAY BACK in the FRONTIER DAYS), it was ACCEPTED to use a paddle, belt, or even a leather strap to deal with bad behaviors.

[Yvhuce]

those who believe its okay to spank kids do you Also think it okay to spank your dog ? do you think it okay to hit other adults ?

and I like Barney btw

If they need it, then yes. Like humans, dogs have different personalities and respond differently to a given situation. Sometimes, a good swat will get the attention of a dog who's acting up and won't respond to lesser methods of discipline. And there are plenty of reasons to hit someone else. Most of which involve fighting and defending one's self or another person. Or the apprehension of criminals. I have hit others in self defense. If you think that's wrong, then perhaps you need to meet someone who wants to kick your ass for being different than they are. Someone bigger and stronger than you, in a situation where simple escape is not possible...

[toddmdl]

If I ever become a parent I think I would avoid spanking my kids unless it was that necessary. I remember when I was little I was only spanked twice and I thought it was scary. I'm sure I earned it but I have no memory of it. I find it a bit disturbing to think about hitting both dogs and kids. It may for some be the only way to make them behave.

[Vic]

What planet were you born on?

Until they reach the age of 7 or 8, they are TOO YOUNG to DISCUSS and REASON with. And even after that point, you get the strong-willed children who want to do things their own way and don't WANT to listen to adults.

Are you a parent? Have YOU ever had to deal with a toddler who doesn't understand the meaning of "No"??? If you have not been a parent, then you have no understanding of the situation at all. How can you reason with a 1 or 2 year old toddler who barely knows how to talk, let alone have any form of coherent conversation?????

[*mongoose]

I dunno, I was only ever spanked once as a kid. And you can't even really call it a spanking, it was one swat to the behind.

And my mother felt so bad about it she never did it again. I was raised in a house where I knew I was loved, and cared for. My mum was always very honest with me and told me things straight rather than giving kids the usual lies they get from their parents.

I grew up without any problems, I've never gotten in serious trouble, I've never even spoken to a police officer.

Maybe if I grew up in a home where I didn't know I was loved I would have turned out differently that I have now.

So if parents are using corporal punishment in replace of love, and sitting your kids down and talking to them about it, I can't say I agree.

But I'm only one person, and I may have just been pre-determined to not be a troublemaker. If everything else has been tried and failed, a spanking won't damage the child irrevocably.

[Vic]

I like kids, especially slow roasted, with a nice marinade. Then served up with some green beans and may be a balked potato, some au jues if available....

Good eats!

Failing that, just remember, "Everything tastes better when it sits on a Ritz" Good cracker!

I'll get the oven going!!

Peace,

Vic

[ArtemisEnterri]

When I was old enough push a vacume cleaner I was doing housework. I remember doing dishes as young as seven, chores are a part of every day family life, and children should be taught to pitch in from an early age, or they'll grow up not knowing how to do a decent job at anything, and with an attitude that the world owes them a living.

When our son messes up he loses priveledges, like video games, the TV, and the computer. He also gets extra chores, this seems to work very well.

When a baby misbehaves you remove them from the situation, they are the infant, YOU ARE THE PARENT what is so hard to figure out there? Are you dense? When our son was young and we were in the store and he misbehaved I let her continue with the shopping and I took him out to the car where we sat and waited for her.

That ended those episodes of his misbehaving in a store, what is so hard for you to understand? Why do you think you should strike the child? Are you that immature? Or are you just not that smart and physical violence is all you can think of in any situation that causes you stress?

I really hope that you grow up before you ever have a child. Do you know what the violence done to me growing up did to me? By the time I was 14 and my Mom would slap my face I would laugh and tell her "you know, I almost felt that" then I would point to the other side of my face and say "why don't you try here?". She would hit me on that side and I would say "nope didn't feel that either", then I would walk away laughing and do whatever I felt like.

By the time I was 16 I was totally out of control, my Dad would smack me around, but it didn't change a thing, I'd been beat so much I was used to it and couldn't care less. You go ahead and paddle them when they misbehave, then what are you gonna do when they REALLY get into trouble? Shoot them?

Peace,

Vic

Why do you people keep trying to treat children like they are miniature adults?

Children have VERY DIFFERENT mental capacities and levels of understanding than adults do. Just because you can have a discussion with a teenager or 20-something DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU CAN DO THE SAME THING WITH AN INFANT, A TODDLER, OR A 4-6 YEAR OLD!

Spanking is NOT about violence. Do you not understand human history? It was considered as THE ONE AND ONLY WAY TO STOP BAD BEHAVIORS AND WAS ACCEPTED SOCIALLY AND LEGALLY FOR CENTURIES!!!! The Bible even says (and I don't give a rat's ass what any anti-Christian moron is gonna reply to me on this) in plain words "spare the rod, spoil the child", and in those days a rod was the typical instrument for simple corporal punishment (spankings).

Why do people keep trying to change what has been PROVEN TO WORK just because a few MORONS in the world can't/couldn't control themselves????? Like many other people have said in this thread, the parents of their friends had direct permission to spank them if they got out of line while at the friend's house, and they typically would get a second spanking when they got home because the friend's parents would have informed their parents of the event. Heck, even SCHOOL TEACHERS AND PRINCIPALS had the authority to apply CORPORAL PUNISHMENT to habitually out-of-line students (until the wishy-washy, namby-pamby whiners complained too damn much)!

As far as what happened to you duck, that WAS abuse, because your parents were OUT OF CONTROL and did not use spanking in the RIGHT way. A CONTROLLED SINGLE-SWAT (or group of 3 or 4 swats in the case of a child who won't stand still for the first one - given with a statement of "If you had held still there would only have been ONE swat.") can be a VERY EFFECTIVE deterrent. But as I just said, it has to be done the RIGHT way, with LOVE and explanation, such as "I am/we are only doing this because you did something wrong and need to understand that I/we love you, and want you to never do that again".

There's one question I would REALLY LOVE to have a straight answer to: If America was founded on the concept of MAJORITY RULE (like when a vote is held, the winner is the person with the MOST votes, or if the vote is to enact a law or rule, it has to have MORE Yea's than Nay's to pass), why the hell do MINORITY (not meaning racial, but meaning philosophical) groups suddenly have so much power????? (Like the atheists who want to remove "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" from our money... A recent MSNBC online poll showed a whopping 84% of Americans who responded - with MILLIONS of clicks recorded - wanted to KEEP those words while only 16% wanted them removed... So why is it still being discussed at high levels of government?????)

[curiositykilledthecat]

I blame the social workers.

[Vic]

I blame the social workers.

Actually curiousity, it's not the social workers who are to blame, but the parents of the children who are at fault. A lot of parents allow their kids to be raised by the schools, TV, and video games, simply because they just can't be bothered to be a real parent.

Discipline does not have to mean corporal punishment, although it can be used as a tool, it is not neccesary if the parent is active in their childs life. I have spanked Buzz once, but the punishment was over in just a minute, and didn't leave a lasting impression. Doing extra chores however, is something he hates, and has to think about for all the time he is doing them. We've found this approach to be much more effective.

Being a real parent means you need to be active in your child's life. You need to know how they're doing in school, what they are reading on the internet, how much TV (and what type of TV) they are watching. You need to know who their friends are, and what it is that they do when they are together.

In essence you must be involved, you have to care, you have to know what influences they are listening to, and lead them in the path that you think is the best for them. Too many people these days don't put forth the effort it takes to raise a kid, then when things go south on them they wonder what the kids problem is, not what it is that they themselves have done or haven't done. It's the kid's or societies fault.

Kids these days are over medicated, becuse the parents can't be bothered with controlling their own kids, and when the kid does poorly in school, they say he has a learning disability or the school is at fault. I can't tell you how many times I've sat down and done homework with Buzz. Being a parent is WORK, it's not easy work either, but if you put in the effort it is all worth it.

So don't give me that line about what the kids these days need, or what social workers or liberals have done. Talk about the parents taking responsibility for the children they bring into this world. If you abuse a kid it's very poor parenting (I know from first hand experience) and the kids will go bad. If you don't discipline your kids you get bad kids, that's from lazy or no parenting. You don't need to beat a child to discipline them, what you need to do is ACTUALLY BE A PARENT.

But I guess that that is just a concept that is far to complex and difficult for some people to learn (yes I'm talking to you, you opinionated, religion spouting right wing nut job).

Peace,

Vic

[ArtemisEnterri]

Actually curiousity, it's not the social workers who are to blame, but the parents of the children who are at fault. A lot of parents allow their kids to be raised by the schools, TV, and video games, simply because they just can't be bothered to be a real parent.

Discipline does not have to mean corporal punishment, although it can be used as a tool, it is not neccesary if the parent is active in their childs life. I have spanked Buzz once, but the punishment was over in just a minute, and didn't leave a lasting impression. Doing extra chores however, is something he hates, and has to think about for all the time he is doing them. We've found this approach to be much more effective.

Being a real parent means you need to be active in your child's life. You need to know how they're doing in school, what they are reading on the internet, how much TV (and what type of TV) they are watching. You need to know who their friends are, and what it is that they do when they are together.

In essence you must be involved, you have to care, you have to know what influences they are listening to, and lead them in the path that you think is the best for them. Too many people these days don't put forth the effort it takes to raise a kid, then when things go south on them they wonder what the kids problem is, not what it is that they themselves have done or haven't done. It's the kid's or societies fault.

Kids these days are over medicated, becuse the parents can't be bothered with controlling their own kids, and when the kid does poorly in school, they say he has a learning disability or the school is at fault. I can't tell you how many times I've sat down and done homework with Buzz. Being a parent is WORK, it's not easy work either, but if you put in the effort it is all worth it.

So don't give me that line about what the kids these days need, or what social workers or liberals have done. Talk about the parents taking responsibility for the children they bring into this world. If you abuse a kid it's very poor parenting (I know from first hand experience) and the kids will go bad. If you don't discipline your kids you get bad kids, that's from lazy or no parenting. You don't need to beat a child to discipline them, what you need to do is ACTUALLY BE A PARENT.

But I guess that that is just a concept that is far to complex and difficult for some people to learn (yes I'm talking to you, you opinionated, religion spouting right wing nut job).

Peace,

Vic

Gee, I AGREE with just about everything you just said... So why the wise-ass ending? O.o

Not every child responds the same way to methods of punishment or reward, nor does the same child respond to them the same way at different ages.

You are VERY RIGHT that the biggest problem is the parents. Parents who don't spend enough time with their kids aren't helping their kids (but at the same time spending TOO MUCH time doesn't help either). It's almost impossible to find that perfectly fine line between too little and too much...

[sarah_ab]

there are absolutely no scientific studies to say spanking will permanately stop a behavior. It stops a behavior from immediately occuring, but does nothing to help reduce the occurance of such behaviors, for that you would need operant conditioning to increase the good behaviors you want, which in turn will have th enatural effect of decreasing negative behaviors.

Many countries have outlawed spanking altogether, and well geee they dont have nearly the social problems the united states has....

[curiositykilledthecat]

Hell the only reason I didn't do certain things as a kid was the fear of getting my ass kicked. Not that I want my kids living in fear of me been there and done that, I just see no qualms about spanking a child. I think the issue comes from too many people taking out their frustrations out on their kids in the process.

In my opinion the worst parents in then world are the ones that drag their kids to beauty pageants. Just because your a fialure in life doesn't give you the right to ruin your child's. I hate those damn pageants.

[bedwetter73]

I LOVE kids and they have always loved me. I am a down to earth guy and I treat them just like any other person. I talk to them in regular tones and don't talk down to them I do adjust my content but I basically lay it out like it is. I have never lied to my nephew and I think I am his favorite person in the whole world. He asks so many questions and I answer them as best I can; if I don't know I tell him I don't. We have researched a few questions that he had on the net and found out together. He is such a smart kid and so well spoken around me. I notice that when he is with his mom he acts babyish, but with me he is a fine young adult, even though he is 9.

Like I said I love kids and they love me. I always am entertaining the kids at family functions or mixed parties. They are so much easier to talk to and get along with than stuffy adults. I just wish that I could find a job in the child care industry. I can't though because I am a middle aged guy, and I am NOT wanted around ANY schools or after school activities. It's not that I am a perv or on some list, I just get the feeling that without a kid of my own, I'm not welcome. It's to bad too, I would make a great teacher.

I guess it's reverse discrimination.

[Vic]

In reading all the responses here, and having lived through the things that I have, the one thing I have come to realize when it comes to disciplining kids, is there really isn't one 'magic pill' or approach. Physical or 'corporal' punishment, to me anyways, should be a last resort, but that also depends on the kid.

I'm not a parent, and probably never will be *shrug* but one thing that I realized was that, like everything else, there has to be different levels of action for issuing discipline. if your child misbehaves r doesn't do what is asked, then sending them to the corner is a begining, and the punishments ramp up from there:

1) time out

2) Time out, and denial of favorite activities, games etc

3)"" ""with added disliked chores etc

Ending in physical punishment if required. What this teaches is that there are levels and the price for bad behavior choices is that things get progressively worse if the behavior and attitude isn't corrected.

Going the physical spanking route directly may instil fear in some, and others wont care, because then they learn how to manipulate and that there isn't anything beyond spanking...except killing or maiming etc.

Its a psychological thing, making the kid wonder what maybe next, and gets them to think twice about what 'may come' kind of like having the kid cut a small switch from a tree so you can swat them with it, now THAT has a serious impact, having to pick the device of your own punishment. I've heard results of that from a few and they learned very quickly.

The other thing is that there isn't any teaching as to why the punishment was inflicted, be it not following instructions or disrespectful behavior etc. If the steps are followed and compliance isn't met resulting in a physical punishment, kids need to know why and have that reinforced with discussion. Show them the progressions and results and ask if it was worth it, and more than likely, the answeer will be no.

Granted this wont work on a 2 year old, but older kids with better communication skills will know and can talk about it, and learn. No reason to beat the sh*t out of a kid for irritating behavior, thats just lazy parenting, trying for the fast result. Part of parenting is teaching, and far to few parents bother to do this and become bad roll models.

Kids depend on parents for everything for the first 16 years of their lives, and parents should be someone to be respected and looked up to. Home shouldn't be a war zone (been there done that) but a place of safety and security, and a positive place to go, and look forward to going to, not a place to dread and fear.

Sadly, it isn't so and far to many people take the short cut in disciplining their kids and the end result is a copy of the parent, and the poor behavior continues.

Such is society it seems

qwack

"Go get a switch!!"

I heard that many times, and I would have to go out to the tree and find a suitable one, if I got one that didn't measure up to their standard I was knocked to the floor and had to go back out and get a better one. All of us did. The last time my sister had to she was sixteen.

We were so physically abused and emotionally/mentally abused us boys even brutalized each other. My younger brother almost sliced my youngest brothers thumb off once, and the payback he got for that was that my youngest brother later broke his leg.

Home was a place I dreaded, it was a constant war zone with no safe port available, I lived on the street as much as possible, this was in southern California, but I found the street to be a safer place than home. "discipline" was meted out without ryhme or reason, a lot of times you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. That was life, threatening, and terrifying, it's no wonder that I still fight in my dreams every night.

Through all of this I still loved my parents, I mean, they're your parents, you have to love them, so instead I came to hate ME. I just knew that there was something wrong with ME and that was why I couldn't be loved, or why I deserved to be treated that way. But one thing I did know, even back then, and that was that you don't treat kids that way. I vowed to myself that if I ever raised a kid it would NOT be like that.

We have lost my big brother and my youngest brother to drug related deaths, so, in a way, my parents have been punished for the way that they raised us. But for myself, my brother, and my sister life continues to be a struggle. There are still things that I have to overcome, but I am getting there. My brother is doing well, and has two wonderful boys, whom he has never had to beat into submission, and my sister, like me is still truggling, but has been able to raise two wonderful kids herself, and again, she didn't have to beat them in the process.

In part of the process that I have been going through I had to sit down (well we actually stood) and have a sober talk with my Dad about what it was like growing up around him. He had a hard time with it, and part way through he told me "you have a tendency to raise your kids the way that you were raised". I pointed out to him that even as a kid that I knew that what he was doing was wrong, and that I haven't raised my boy this way. I told him "if I could see that, and understand that, then I know that you could too, the difference between us is that I gave a shit". He had nothing to say to that, because he knew that there was no justification for the things that he had done.

It was very hard to have this discussion with him, because inside of me was so much rage, hurt, betrayal, and pain that had been festering in there for so many, many years, and still through all of that I loved this man. I loved him more than life itself, and would never, ever wish to hurt him, but this was something that had to come out if we were ever going to have any kind of decent relationship.

Now it's out, (we had "the talk" many years ago), and we understand each other. I love him, just as much as I ever have, but I don't have all that pain tied to my love for him. I call him every day, just to let him know that I love him, and that I'm glad he's my Dad.

I have yet to have this talk with my Mom, but it's gotten to the point that I need to, and it's not something I look forward to. You have to do this face to face, and you have to be able to speak coherantly of things that have such rage and hurt connected to them it's like openning a wound that has never healed right, and has festered and rotted inside of you. It is a very painful process, but a neccsary one if you are to ever get all of that poison out of your soul. I don't really want to do this, I love my Mom, but if I'm to ever really love her the way I should I must do this and get past it.

When parents do these things to their kids, and present those kinds of role models to their children, they are concentrating pure evil. when you cause that kind of rage and pain in a child it percolates down through them, into their very soul, where they pass it on to their children, and as I've said, this evil becomes even more concentrated. It is up to the children, as they grow older, to see the folly of this and to break the cycle. If not society as a whole suffers.

We see this every day in the mothers that kill their own children, or the kids who grow up to become rapists, murderers, and drug addicts. It is up to the victims of abuse to break this cycle. I know that that hardly seems fair, but that is the way that it is. We live in a messed up world, we didn't mess it up, but it is up to us to fix it.

Peace,

Vic

[Yvhuce]

WHY is it SO HARD for humans not to be violent?!

Because violence is part of human nature. Many people don't like to accept the fact that we're animals. Animals are often violent creatures in one form or another. Especially primates, which is what humans are descended from... And for those who don't believe in evolution: Even God is violent.

[curiositykilledthecat]

Sometimes violence is necessary. Pacifism is not peace.

As someone who has had his head put through walls, arm sliced open by the sharp edge of a sponge mop and other wonderful childhood memories, I seeth with rage when I see someone hit their kids, however when I'm grocery shopping and the little bastard four aisles over won't shut up it's time to move beyond threatening time out for the 15th time. There is a right and wrong way to administer discipline. A spanking should be the last resort not the first option. Every kid is different and will respond to situations accordingly. Some kids are just stupid and the only thing that will get through is the association of pain or discomfort with a specifgic behavior. Other kids learn from deprivation, which by the way is what "time-out" or "grounded" is. Your depriving the child of freedom and enjoyment. According to the tree huggers here that should count as abuse too, even though neither are abuse when used properly. I reiterate my earlier point that too many people use their children as their means of venting their frustrations in life.

[dlbbyboy]

Disciplinary spankings have been the corner stone for teaching children that there are consequences for every last action that they perform, just as positive reinforcement has, for millenia. End of story. I imagine that if it were so horrible then we as Human beings would not evolved into the highly productive and social entity that we are. Even if we as human's stop "physical punishment" of our off spring, Mother Nature won't. You will only need to look at animals to see this universal truth- it works, and those who don't pay attention to the loving corrections of their parents suffer a more horrible fate. Unfortunately those parents that fail to set aside their emotional comfort to be the authority figure that they are allow their children to adversly impact every one they come in contact with, including children that have been disciplined with tough love. No, the real emotional scarring occurs when the child is never shown the proper acceptable behavior for discipline, and they never understand it's social impacts as they get older and interact with the real world, and then can not understand why their actions are are bringing them negative results. Ever had to work with someone that doesn't understand why everyone doesn't like working with them? No one wants to teach an adult about life lesson's that their parents should have taught them long ago.

As for the OP, I look playfully at children (even those out of diapers) and think to my self " you lucky little bastard;) I'd trade ice cream for a year to take your place for a day. But I know it won't happen so I play with them like I am in their shoes and hope to god I remember not to piss my pants

[Vic]

Disciplinary spankings have been the corner stone for teaching children that there are consequences for every last action that they perform, just as positive reinforcement has, for millenia. End of story. I imagine that if it were so horrible then we as Human beings would not evolved into the highly productive and social entity that we are. Even if we as human's stop "physical punishment" of our off spring, Mother Nature won't. You will only need to look at animals to see this universal truth- it works, and those who don't pay attention to the loving corrections of their parents suffer a more horrible fate. Unfortunately those parents that fail to set aside their emotional comfort to be the authority figure that they are allow their children to adversly impact every one they come in contact with, including children that have been disciplined with tough love. No, the real emotional scarring occurs when the child is never shown the proper acceptable behavior for discipline, and they never understand it's social impacts as they get older and interact with the real world, and then can not understand why their actions are are bringing them negative results. Ever had to work with someone that doesn't understand why everyone doesn't like working with them? No one wants to teach an adult about life lesson's that their parents should have taught them long ago.

WTF?????

What, exactly did any of that mean? If you're trying to say that parents don't explain to their children just what it is that are being punished for I don't agree. At our dinner table, if you forgot to say "please" and "thank you" you were picking your ass up off the floor (my Dad was quick), and you knew exactly why you were getting up off of the floor for too.

If you screwed up in front of him you got nailed instantly, and then he'd yell at you for it, so you knew what it was, if he was going to beat you for something my Mom told him about he would give you a speach about just how much of a low life disappointment you were, long ones, hurtfull ones, the kind where you just wished he'd just go ahead and beat the shit out of you for, (you knew he was gonna do that in the end anyway).

My Mom was different, she screamed about what it was she was beating you for as she beat the living shit out of you. So I think most parents tell their kids just what it is that they did wrong when they punish them. When I discipline my kid I do, it is ridiculous to discipline a kid without explaining what it is they are being punished for.

Not knowing the difference between acceptable and unacceptable? What kind of baloney is that? The only people who fit into that catagory are the truly insane. Everybody knows the difference between right and wrong, it's just that criminals choose to ignore it, and obnoxious people are just clueless about how offensive they are.

I still don't understand what your post was about, but I hope I covered enough bases for me to have covered it.

Peace,

Vic

[rusty pins]

All I plan on saying about this "spanking" discussion is that there are different understandings of what a "spanking" is. Never ever should a parent beat the crap out of their kid. They shouldn't use a switch, belt, board, or anything other than the palm of their hand. Before you go off on me, they shouldn't use their hand to slap the child's face or any other part of their body with the exception of their bottom. Then if they have to spank their child, they must not do it hard at all. With young children it's more the embaressment and the idea in their head that they are getting a spanking as opposed to actualy causing hurt to a child. A mild spanking shouldn't hurt or sting a child, especially if you don't spank them bare bottomed. Spanking a small child lightly through their pants and diaper shouldn't hurt them but just cause them a little discomfort instead. Even bare bottom spankings should be light and just a few swats, just enough to get the message across without hurting a child. This is where parents often have a problem. A "spanking" is not "beat the shit out of the kid" with a stick, belt, whip, board, fists, kicking with feet, etc.