Nay Sayers

[cathdiap]

47 minutes ago, Reddy said:

I learned almost two decades ago from my friend studying for a medical degree that people who wish for an amputation almost never regret it,

47 minutes ago, Reddy said:

I desire incontinence.  I want something that I can't get from putting on a diaper and pretending to be incontinent.

Sometimes I wonder if body modification is some kind of last resort that people use to express their desire or even their right to self-determination and bodily autonomy. Even if that means their body will be less able to perform essential tasks. I wouldn't be surprised given the slave system we've found ourselves in over the past few decades. A world where people find it difficult to live a purposeful life and work on self-actualization. Perhaps this is the last chance they have to prove their freedom.

 

[DAQ]

2 hours ago, spark said:

My question is: what does the surgery give you that you can't get by wearing a diaper and pretending to be incontinent?

I don't like the comparison between gender-affirming surgery and incontinence.   I don't think it is an accurate comparison.

To say that my reservations with the incontinence surgery are in any way similar to transphobia and homophobia is a reach and insulting to the LBGTQI community that has to deal with intolerance.

I have had 4 separate conversations, 3 of which were with mental healthcare professionals that compare the desire for incontinence to be similar to being trans only in that there is a part of your body that doesn't feel right. Furthermore all 4 of those people and myself would never try to be part of that community and steal their thunder or co opt their message. However I find it hilariously ironic that you would in the same breath talk about that community and intolerance and simultaneously be sanctimoniously Intolerant to people who may seek surgery to become their authentic selves.

I am also struggling why you would come onto the incontinence DESIRES sub forum and have this argument. Pretend? I said it before, you lack empathy and understanding.

1 hour ago, spark said:

Seriously- if you can't draw the line at elective amputation, I don't know what to say.

And yet something tells me you will continue to say things.

19 minutes ago, cathdiap said:

Sometimes I wonder if body modification is some kind of last resort that people use to express their desire or even their right to self-determination and bodily autonomy. Even if that means their body will be less able to perform essential tasks. I wouldn't be surprised given the slave system we've found ourselves in over the past few decades. A world where people find it difficult to live a purposeful life and work on self-actualization. Perhaps this is the last chance they have to prove their freedom.

 

I heard an interesting theory on why mental illness and neuordivergent behavior seem to be on the rise. For most of recorded history and beyond our lives were dictated by pure survival and we have reached a point where we are above basic subsistence. We have the time and energy to think and feel and be in ways that have never been possible

[spark]

22 hours ago, DAQ said:

I have had 4 separate conversations, 3 of which were with mental healthcare professionals that compare the desire for incontinence to be similar to being trans only in that there is a part of your body that doesn't feel right. Furthermore all 4 of those people and myself would never try to be part of that community and steal their thunder or co opt their message. However I find it hilariously ironic that you would in the same breath talk about that community and intolerance and simultaneously be sanctimoniously Intolerant to people who may seek surgery to become their authentic selves.

I have an issue because you're promoting something that I find harmful.  You don't see it that way, but I don't think you've read the whole post.  You had an initial reaction but didn't read everything.  If you did, and realized that 10 years ago I wanted to kill myself, and you still came back with the tone that you did- you're kind of an AH.  If that upsets you- ask yourself, did you read it from my viewpoint?

I hope you notice that I haven't posted on the other thread.   Before you judge me as a complete AH, ask yourself why you think that I'm posting here, and not there.

 

23 hours ago, Reddy said:

I learned almost two decades ago from my friend studying for a medical degree that people who wish for an amputation almost never regret it, certainly not something that can be said for other cosmetic surgeries.  I just don't see the problem with it.  It's fine that you won't accept people getting that type of surgery.  We just disagree about it, I guess.

Maybe we look for different kinds of doctors.  My Ophthalmologist tore me a new one when she learned that I ignored pre-diabetes and developed Type-2 diabetes.  She is the best doctor I have on my team.  My SIL would also tear me a new one but would be nicer about it.  My step-brother would hang back, but tell me what a bad idea it was.  My cousin would talk me through it, and speak to an expert that he knows to make sure I got a valid second opinion.

[BrownBobby]

16 hours ago, spark said:

I have an issue because you're promoting something that I find harmful.  You don't see it that way, but I don't think you've read the whole post.  You had an initial reaction but didn't read everything.  If you did, and realized that 10 years ago I wanted to kill myself, and you still came back with the tone that you did- you're kind of an AH.  If that upsets you- ask yourself, did you read it from my viewpoint?

I hope you notice that I haven't posted on the other thread.   Before you judge me as a complete AH, ask yourself why you think that I'm posting here, and not there.

 

Maybe we look for different kinds of doctors.  My Ophthalmologist tore me a new one when she learned that I ignored pre-diabetes and developed Type-2 diabetes.  She is the best doctor I have on my team.  My SIL would also tear me a new one but would be nicer about it.  My step-brother would hang back, but tell me what a bad idea it was.  My cousin would talk me through it, and speak to an expert that he knows to make sure I got a valid second opinion.

I have an issue because you're promoting something I find harmful.  You don't see it that way, but I don't think you've read any of my posts thoroughly.  You've had an initial reaction but didn't read everything.  If you did, and realized that 10 years ago, I actually tried to kill myself, and you still come back with the tone that you do, post after post after post after post...you're kind of an AH.  If that upsets you ask yourself - is there a reason that, when your exact words are used to describe my reaction to your behavior, why does it upset you so much?  Perhaps it's you that's the problem in this situation?

Pretending people don't have these feelings don't magically make them go away.  There are actual, real consequences to them feeling like there is no other way for them to safely achieve them.  And yet, "for safety" and "to prevent harm," people like you seem to be completely unwilling to allow those feelings to have a safe outlet to be pursued.  What's better in your mind - having someone with desires like these feel a continuous, never-ending need that leads to inner conflict, anxiety, and other negative consequences that they either get to bear their whole life without an outlet or take things into their own hands and unsafely try to resolve, or having a way for those desires to actually be fulfilled in a safe, controlled setting with people trained in how to not only make sure it happens, but that this treatment would be the best way to address that desire?

[spark]

2 hours ago, BrownBobby said:

Pretending people don't have these feelings don't magically make them go away.  There are actual, real consequences to them feeling like there is no other way for them to safely achieve them.  And yet, "for safety" and "to prevent harm," people like you seem to be completely unwilling to allow those feelings to have a safe outlet to be pursued.  What's better in your mind - having someone with desires like these feel a continuous, never-ending need that leads to inner conflict, anxiety, and other negative consequences that they either get to bear their whole life without an outlet or take things into their own hands and unsafely try to resolve, or having a way for those desires to actually be fulfilled in a safe, controlled setting with people trained in how to not only make sure it happens but that this treatment would be the best way to address that desire?

The culture of this thread doesn't want to hear why it might be a bad idea to spend a boatload of money on something that may not alleviate your anxiety.  It's your money, it's your body.  If it was safe and ethical for a doctor to do it, you wouldn't be shopping so hard to find one who is willing to do it.

[BrownBobby]

2 hours ago, spark said:

The culture of this thread doesn't want to hear why it might be a bad idea to spend a boatload of money on something that may not alleviate your anxiety.  It's your money, it's your body.  If it was safe and ethical for a doctor to do it, you wouldn't be shopping so hard to find one who is willing to do it.

I think it says everything about the value of your argument that you only quote the second half of my post.

It wasn't "safe and ethical" for a boatload of things historically that are considered commonplace now. Your argument has been used to argue against transgender surgeries, brain surgery, and even autopsies. Thank goodness society is willing to slowly and deliberately evolve those definitions over time. If you're not even interested in entertaining that thought, I won't put any more energy into trying to change your mind.  I hope you don't waste your own energy arguing the same point that everyone else fully and completely understands already.

EDIT: You know what, I think I've finally gotten a grasp on *why* you seem to not be able to comprehend this.  

Do you REALLY think the people in this forum DON'T know that this might be a bad idea?  Are you genuinely so unintelligent as to think that NOBODY considering this surgery realizes that this MIGHT be a bad idea?

No shit, Sherlock.

WE ALL UNDERSTAND THAT. That isn't a new viewpoint.  It isn't some hidden truth that you, somehow, have exclusive access to that only you are privileged and capable of expressing.  It wasn't right for you. Great!  That's wonderful to know.  Your "just get over it!" mentality was what led to my suicide attempt.  It didn't just "magically go away."  Wearing and using diapers didn't magically get "close enough for all intents and purposes."  Multiple mental heath professionals realized that it went the other way - the desire was what CAUSED my mental symptoms.  

Preach caution all you want.  I encourage it!  I don't expect people to line up for this procedure.  In fact, for most it's not even the first, second, or tenth thing I'd recommend they try to help this desire.  But for those that genuinely DO have this deep-seated desire to this level...why are you so insistent that they suffer?  

[spark]

1 hour ago, BrownBobby said:

But for those that genuinely DO have this deep-seated desire to this level...why are you so insistent that they suffer?  

Have I ever encouraged anybody to struggle mentally?   I want to caution against something drastic and potentially dangerous, especially if mental health is already fragile.  I want to restate that nobody needs my permission or blessing to do this.   Just because I disagree, doesn't mean you can't do it.

My self-amputation example bombed for some reason, so let's try this one.  Let's assume we have a super-adrenaline junkie who wants to perform a super-risky bungee jump.   This is a bungee jump that only a few operators are willing to do, and those that are don't have proven track records.   The outfit will only operate in countries that have limited regulation, charge exorbitant fees, and make you sign every liability waiver available.  Am I being intolerant if I caution and tell the adrenaline junkie that it might not be a good idea?

[Reddy]

55 minutes ago, spark said:

Have I ever encouraged anybody to struggle mentally?   I want to caution against something drastic and potentially dangerous, especially if mental health is already fragile.  I want to restate that nobody needs my permission or blessing to do this.   Just because I disagree, doesn't mean you can't do it.

My self-amputation example bombed for some reason, so let's try this one.  Let's assume we have a super-adrenaline junkie who wants to perform a super-risky bungee jump.   This is a bungee jump that only a few operators are willing to do, and those that are don't have proven track records.   The outfit will only operate in countries that have limited regulation, charge exorbitant fees, and make you sign every liability waiver available.  Am I being intolerant if I caution and tell the adrenaline junkie that it might not be a good idea?

I think the first issue is that many people don't see any problem with self-amputation, although it's a good analogy, it's just another thing that is okay to do (but I would never want to, and also should be done only if the person really wants it).  It's certainly not "wrong!" in my mind.

I see what you're saying with the bungee jump, but the struggle is that there is literally no local option available.  Adrenaline junkies have options in the United States, I don't.  If this procedure could be done in America I wouldn't be in Mexico right now, so this analogy doesn't feel as fair to the situation I'm in.

[spark]

5 minutes ago, Reddy said:

I think the first issue is that many people don't see any problem with self-amputation, although it's a good analogy, it's just another thing that is okay to do (but I would never want to, and also should be done only if the person really wants it).  It's certainly not "wrong!" in my mind.

I see what you're saying with the bungee jump, but the struggle is that there is literally no local option available.  Adrenaline junkies have options in the United States, I don't.  If this procedure could be done in America I wouldn't be in Mexico right now, so this analogy doesn't feel as fair to the situation I'm in.

There is a reason you don't have a local option.   Look, you're already planning the trip, and I'm sure you've already paid some money.  The ship has sailed in your case, and I hope it works for you.

[BrownBobby]

2 hours ago, spark said:

Have I ever encouraged anybody to struggle mentally?   I want to caution against something drastic and potentially dangerous, especially if mental health is already fragile.  I want to restate that nobody needs my permission or blessing to do this.   Just because I disagree, doesn't mean you can't do it.

My self-amputation example bombed for some reason, so let's try this one.  Let's assume we have a super-adrenaline junkie who wants to perform a super-risky bungee jump.   This is a bungee jump that only a few operators are willing to do, and those that are don't have proven track records.   The outfit will only operate in countries that have limited regulation, charge exorbitant fees, and make you sign every liability waiver available.  Am I being intolerant if I caution and tell the adrenaline junkie that it might not be a good idea?

If it really was only "cautioning against something drastic and potentially dangerous," I think it'd be a lot more understandable.  Let me be incredibly blunt - it's gone way, way way beyond "just cautioning." 

Let's follow your analogy, shall we?  Let's assume we have a super-adrenaline junkie who can't find what he's looking for in the experiences available.  Nothing has quite satisfied that need that he's had.  He's done years of research looking for what other options are available, and vetted one option that, while not done enough to have an established track record of safety yet, shows promise with an operator whose record checks out pretty well for what he has done.  Knowing all of this, and knowing the risks he's taking, he decides to do it.

Then you come in, screaming, waving your arms in front of the adrenaline junkie, saying, "Look!  I know what you're going to do, and it's dangerous!  I mean, I thought I wanted to do something like this, but then I went on some go-karts, and that was enough for me!  You'd be insane for attempting to do this!"

The adrenaline junkie politely nods, reassures you that they're very aware of that, and that they have, in fact, gone go-karting.  You keep insisting that it's dangerous, with each time the adrenaline junkie tries to reassure you going "I can't tell you what to do, but its SUPER DANGEROUS!  You must have some flaw in your judgement since any rational person wouldn't dare do this!"

You'll forgive me if the adrenaline junkie thinks you're either a well-meaning idiot or being deliberately obtuse.  

[spark]

7 minutes ago, BrownBobby said:

If it really was only "cautioning against something drastic and potentially dangerous," I think it'd be a lot more understandable.  Let me be incredibly blunt - it's gone way, way way beyond "just cautioning." 

Let's follow your analogy, shall we?  Let's assume we have a super-adrenaline junkie who can't find what he's looking for in the experiences available.  Nothing has quite satisfied that need that he's had.  He's done years of research looking for what other options are available, and vetted one option that, while not done enough to have an established track record of safety yet, shows promise with an operator whose record checks out pretty well for what he has done.  Knowing all of this, and knowing the risks he's taking, he decides to do it.

Then you come in, screaming, waving your arms in front of the adrenaline junkie, saying, "Look!  I know what you're going to do, and it's dangerous!  I mean, I thought I wanted to do something like this, but then I went on some go-karts, and that was enough for me!  You'd be insane for attempting to do this!"

The adrenaline junkie politely nods, reassures you that they're very aware of that, and that they have, in fact, gone go-karting.  You keep insisting that it's dangerous, with each time the adrenaline junkie tries to reassure you going "I can't tell you what to do, but its SUPER DANGEROUS!  You must have some flaw in your judgement since any rational person wouldn't dare do this!"

You'll forgive me if the adrenaline junkie thinks you're either a well-meaning idiot or being deliberately obtuse.  

Your response would be accurate if you accurately portrayed what I said rather than projecting my caution to an absurd level and then equating me to a homophobe because of it.  However, that's not what I did.  I merely cautioned and said it was self-harm. 

FTR- the first thing you do when a student is cutting is take away the knife.  FTR- I did this exact thing last year.  A student was cutting in art class, and I don't have knives in my class.  Guess how I took care of that problem?

I'm sorry if you disagree with me, but I see this as a form of cutting.  You don't, which is either because you are actively cutting and trying to defend your actions, or analyzed it to such a degree that you've spent the money to make this happen.   Fortunately, it takes a lot more than finding an exacto knife to have access to this surgery, which kills my analogy.

The 2nd thing I do when I see cutting is: get them help!   It's a red flag, get them to help immediately.   If you're considering this surgery- get help.  And if the help you get is condoning this- WTF does it matter that some idiot on the internet disagrees with you?

AFAIK, we've already had one guy book the surgery, which I think is the first time I've ever heard about anybody getting that far.  We've had people propose it for a long time, but nobody had access to the funds to make it happen until now.   He found a way to get to the exacto knife, and I hope he will be fine.

[Diapered Dave]

I think this is where the phrase "Let's all agree to disagree.." comes in. 😆😆

[BrownBobby]

47 minutes ago, spark said:

Your response would be accurate if you accurately portrayed what I said rather than projecting my caution to an absurd level and then equating me to a homophobe because of it.  However, that's not what I did.  I merely cautioned and said it was self-harm. 

It says everything that you defend it as "being extreme." That's the extent I have to go to to have a CHANCE of you understanding how you're coming across.  You are literally incapable of even beginning to accept that, just maybe, your intentions aren't matching what you're actually doing.  But I'm done.   You're incapable of understanding this from any other perspective than your own. Very well- there's a reason I normally leave your posts in my Ignored list.  

Let's talk about ME, then.  A subject I am, unabashedly, an expert on.  I'm going to talk about the licensed mental health professionals I've seen, which are experts on mental health and the appropriate actions to take.  Both of those premises, I hope, are so obviously self-true that I don't have to defend them.

But since I rather enjoy helping others see where this argument is being so wonderfully mis-applied, I will follow your logic, again, to the letter.  

47 minutes ago, spark said:

I'm sorry if you disagree with me, but I see this as a form of cutting.  You don't, which is either because you are actively cutting and trying to defend your actions, or analyzed it to such a degree that you've spent the money to make this happen.   Fortunately, it takes a lot more than finding an exacto knife to have access to this surgery, which kills my analogy.

*I* alone don't disagree with you.  Four licensed counselors disagree with you.  Two urologists (not even including this surgeon!) disagree with you.  An entire mental health crisis team disagrees with you.  But it will never be enough for exactly the reason you laid out - you either have to defend your position despite all this evidence as still being right, or analyze it and determine that maybe it's much more complicated than the easy way you want it to be.  Unfortunately, it takes willingness to do either of those things, so it kills my hope if it happening.

47 minutes ago, spark said:

The 2nd thing I do when I see cutting is: get them help!   It's a red flag, get them to help immediately.   If you're considering this surgery- get help.  And if the help you get is condoning this- WTF does it matter that some idiot on the internet disagrees with you?

I *have* gotten help.  Reference the previous list if you somehow don't remember.  I've gotten lots and lots and lots of help.  Do you know what the most common thing a professional says to me after going through all of this? "I understand how this is affecting you, and agree that you'd be better off incontinent.  But I can't think of a good way to make it happen.  I actually wish there was."  But it says a lot that despite "all the help I'm getting condoning this," you still seem to think it's okay to act this way in general to people sharing information about stuff like this.  If it was the first time, I would consider you a "random idiot on the internet."  But boy, is it a pattern in so many topics in this forum.

47 minutes ago, spark said:

AFAIK, we've already had one guy book the surgery, which I think is the first time I've ever heard about anybody getting that far.  We've had people propose it for a long time, but nobody had access to the funds to make it happen until now.   He found a way to get to the exacto knife, and I hope he will be fine.

Well, considering I also had it done, congratulations.  You're poorly informed.  I don't expect that to change anything about your viewpoint.  You've already decided you're doing the Lord's work in this, can't possibly be in any way, shape, or form doing it incorrectly, and have no plans to change.  I "got the Exacto knife" and turned out just fine as well.  I also vetted the credentials of the doctor through multiple medical databases and legal checks, but hey, what the heck do I know, right?   It's not like I've been obsessively researching topics like this my whole life because it's been a desire I've had for as long as I can remember, affecting my mental health in such dramatic ways that it's led to very dangerous outcomes, where all other methods of treatment for either the desires or the resulting mental conditions haven't led to a full recovery.  Nope.  Not at all.  I must be self-harming.

_____

Again, I don't expect any actual change.  You've already convinced yourself you're correct.  And apparently if I am to accept your stance, it means I must be someone who's self-harming under goddamn supervision of about a dozen professionals in mental and urinary health.  I care a lot more about the people who have this desire who, after reading multiple comments about how they must be wanting to self-harm and should not even consider options that might help reduce that harm, actually believe it and don't get help they could have had.  For me, even knowing this WAS an option I could have pursued would have immensely relieved years of unpleasant stress, even if I didn't go through with it.  Knowing there are options out there to help, helps.  Telling someone "Make sure you want to do this, because it has a bunch of risks that might lead to bad things" is trying to help self-harm. Telling someone "you must be self-harming to even be considering this" is just being an ignorant, unhelpful asshole.

 

35 minutes ago, Diapered Dave said:

I think this is where the phrase "Let's all agree to disagree.." comes in. 😆😆

I find the phrase "You can't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" is much more apt here.  And this is me stepping away before that happens even more.

[spark]

1 hour ago, BrownBobby said:

It says everything that you defend it as "being extreme." That's the extent I have to go to to have a CHANCE of you understanding how you're coming across.  You are literally incapable of even beginning to accept that, just maybe, your intentions aren't matching what you're actually doing.  But I'm done.   You're incapable of understanding this from any other perspective than your own. Very well- there's a reason I normally leave your posts in my Ignored list.  

Let's talk about ME, then.  A subject I am, unabashedly, an expert on.  I'm going to talk about the licensed mental health professionals I've seen, which are experts on mental health and the appropriate actions to take.  Both of those premises, I hope, are so obviously self-true that I don't have to defend them.

But since I rather enjoy helping others see where this argument is being so wonderfully mis-applied, I will follow your logic, again, to the letter.  

*I* alone don't disagree with you.  Four licensed counselors disagree with you.  Two urologists (not even including this surgeon!) disagree with you.  An entire mental health crisis team disagrees with you.  But it will never be enough for exactly the reason you laid out - you either have to defend your position despite all this evidence as still being right, or analyze it and determine that maybe it's much more complicated than the easy way you want it to be.  Unfortunately, it takes willingness to do either of those things, so it kills my hope if it happening.

I *have* gotten help.  Reference the previous list if you somehow don't remember.  I've gotten lots and lots and lots of help.  Do you know what the most common thing a professional says to me after going through all of this? "I understand how this is affecting you, and agree that you'd be better off incontinent.  But I can't think of a good way to make it happen.  I actually wish there was."  But it says a lot that despite "all the help I'm getting condoning this," you still seem to think it's okay to act this way in general to people sharing information about stuff like this.  If it was the first time, I would consider you a "random idiot on the internet."  But boy, is it a pattern in so many topics in this forum.

Well, considering I also had it done, congratulations.  You're poorly informed.  I don't expect that to change anything about your viewpoint.  You've already decided you're doing the Lord's work in this, can't possibly be in any way, shape, or form doing it incorrectly, and have no plans to change.  I "got the Exacto knife" and turned out just fine as well.  I also vetted the credentials of the doctor through multiple medical databases and legal checks, but hey, what the heck do I know, right?   It's not like I've been obsessively researching topics like this my whole life because it's been a desire I've had for as long as I can remember, affecting my mental health in such dramatic ways that it's led to very dangerous outcomes, where all other methods of treatment for either the desires or the resulting mental conditions haven't led to a full recovery.  Nope.  Not at all.  I must be self-harming.

_____

Again, I don't expect any actual change.  You've already convinced yourself you're correct.  And apparently if I am to accept your stance, it means I must be someone who's self-harming under goddamn supervision of about a dozen professionals in mental and urinary health.  I care a lot more about the people who have this desire who, after reading multiple comments about how they must be wanting to self-harm and should not even consider options that might help reduce that harm, actually believe it and don't get help they could have had.  For me, even knowing this WAS an option I could have pursued would have immensely relieved years of unpleasant stress, even if I didn't go through with it.  Knowing there are options out there to help, helps.  Telling someone "Make sure you want to do this, because it has a bunch of risks that might lead to bad things" is trying to help self-harm. Telling someone "you must be self-harming to even be considering this" is just being an ignorant, unhelpful asshole.

 

I find the phrase "You can't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" is much more apt here.  And this is me stepping away before that happens even more.

That's a lot of projection from somebody who has already had the surgery, can I ask WTF didn't you start with that in first place?  Are you lying and trying to prove a point, or was this something you've hid from all of us?   Maybe I misread, and you mentioned that you've had this surgery.    

You've gotten help, or so you say, why in the hell are you responding to me in such an aggressive tone?  Why didn't you start with the main point- you had this surgery with the doctor in question- and you're happy with the results?  That's kind of a big point in the argument, and you left that off?

I don't mean to be rude, but all of your posts since 2017 have been on the Incontinent Desires thread.   Most of the post since 2017 are arguementove in the incontinent desires threads.  Are you doing research, or looking personal valiidation?

 

[BrownBobby]

5 hours ago, spark said:

That's a lot of projection from somebody who has already had the surgery, can I ask WTF didn't you start with that in first place?  Are you lying and trying to prove a point, or was this something you've hid from all of us?   Maybe I misread, and you mentioned that you've had this surgery.    

You've gotten help, or so you say, why in the hell are you responding to me in such an aggressive tone?  Why didn't you start with the main point- you had this surgery with the doctor in question- and you're happy with the results?  That's kind of a big point in the argument, and you left that off?

I don't mean to be rude, but all of your posts since 2017 have been on the Incontinent Desires thread.   Most of the post since 2017 are arguementove in the incontinent desires threads.  Are you doing research, or looking personal valiidation?

 

If you genuinely want the answers to the questions, I'm willing to assume good faith and give them - but again, I'm noticing you actually haven't addressed any of the points about this being self-harm despite extensive medical and professional evaluation...

I try to be as open about this as I can. I've mentioned it several times on this forum. Many of those mentions are deleted because some person comes into the thread meaning to "preach to the lost" and convince everyone that they're hurting themselves and/or somehow mocking those who didn't choose to be incontient. They usually refuse to take any suggestions that, perhaps, what they're saying isn't actually contributing to the conversation and get a mod involved. The result is deletion of anything remotely related to it. I'm amazed these threads have stayed up so far. It's partially why I stay away from many of them - why post my story again if someone is going to come in, decide that they're going to be the hero saving people from themselves, and get it deleted?  (And before you jump to the conclusion, no, it's not because of some argumentative tone I've taken - most of the time, it's the person coming into the thread to try to "save people" that ends up flying off the handle and ironically giving the mods a reason to delete it.)

This is partially why your stance is aggravating. You're right to be concerned that there is danger here. Again, it's not whether or not you say it. It's how much, how insistently, and how inflexibly you hold to it.  My analogy above isn't as hyperbolic as you think. For many in this forum, and especially those who are so deeply into this subject that international surgery is even a consideration, they've already tried a laundry list of other methods. They've done years of research into the effects and what might result.  In fact, our person getting the surgery is one of them, from my talks with him. Your warnings are like telling a professional race car driver to make sure to slow down for the turns, and when he still takes them quickly, saying it's "still self harm that he'd even consider going that quickly around it" because of how dangerous it is.  

Which is why I get aggravated about this topic. I don't need validation about my decision.  I'm beyond happy with it. My biggest regret, by far, is that I hadn't had it done sooner. I can't imagine how much better my own life would have been had I had this opportunity earlier. I would have avoided so much (actual instead of perceived) self-harm if I could have had this outlet. Heck, even knowing the outlet existed would have been incredibly helpful to my mental health. 

In causing incontience, I am an expert. I've guided over a dozen people to various levels of potty untraining, from weakened bladders to full on diaper dependency. I've done more looking through scientific literature on this topic than anyone I've met (though I suspect there are others just as submerged into it as I, for the same reasons).  There's a reason I stay mostly in this forum - it's the one most aligned to my interests. There's also a reason I usually end up being one of the argumentative ones when one of those "nay-sayers" cross over from helpful to unhelpful to irritating - this matters to me, deeply.  And if I have learned one thing through ten years of pursuing this goal actively...I'm far, far FAR from alone in having a deep-seated, ingrained desire to be incontinent that I can't deal with any way but to actually *be* incontinent, as the years of addressing it has shown.

I haven't been hiding. I've been speaking where I can. Then someone like you comes in, insistently nay-says until the thread gets nuked, walks away satisfied that they were definitely the good guy, and usually comes back to the next thread to do it again. Ironically, it's your concern that keeps you from having the chance to know, and it's far from just me that's this way. From my research, there may be more than a dozen people out there who have gotten similar operations from other doctors. They're almost impossible to actually talk to, because the moment they start speaking, someone swoops in and makes sure the conversation gets shut down because of "concern for people's safety" or "sensitivity to those who didn't have a choice." They've learned to shut up, keep their heads down, and don't bother bringing it up because best case, they'll have to explain it to someone woefully equipped mentally to understand, or worst case, they'll be beaten down by those "just making sure they don't self-harm again."

Perhaps now you might see why your stance is met with frustration in this forum?

 

[Reddy]

6 hours ago, spark said:

That's a lot of projection from somebody who has already had the surgery, can I ask WTF didn't you start with that in first place?  Are you lying and trying to prove a point, or was this something you've hid from all of us?   Maybe I misread, and you mentioned that you've had this surgery.    

You've gotten help, or so you say, why in the hell are you responding to me in such an aggressive tone?  Why didn't you start with the main point- you had this surgery with the doctor in question- and you're happy with the results?  That's kind of a big point in the argument, and you left that off?

I don't mean to be rude, but all of your posts since 2017 have been on the Incontinent Desires thread.   Most of the post since 2017 are arguementove in the incontinent desires threads.  Are you doing research, or looking personal valiidation?

 

He has had the surgery.  Seeing him add a comment about it, then going through his history is how I got started on the journey, although the actual person who posted the link to the center was @jimj.  Brownbobby has been open about it, and posted several times acknowledging he had it when prompted by others, and even warning people gently to consider other options first, but he has not been on the forum just in the past few weeks due to other things going on for him.

[Ineedboth1994]

6 hours ago, spark said:

That's a lot of projection from somebody who has already had the surgery, can I ask WTF didn't you start with that in first place?  Are you lying and trying to prove a point, or was this something you've hid from all of us?   Maybe I misread, and you mentioned that you've had this surgery.    

You've gotten help, or so you say, why in the hell are you responding to me in such an aggressive tone?  Why didn't you start with the main point- you had this surgery with the doctor in question- and you're happy with the results?  That's kind of a big point in the argument, and you left that off?

I don't mean to be rude, but all of your posts since 2017 have been on the Incontinent Desires thread.   Most of the post since 2017 are arguementove in the incontinent desires threads.  Are you doing research, or looking personal valiidation?

 

I’m not going to pile on because many posters have already hit the nail on the head. That being said, I don’t truly believe that you think you are changing anyone’s mind or even having conversation in good faith. 
 

Nobody who is on this forum is going to be talked out of doing something they want to do, related to diapers, just because some random person on the internet screeched about something negative. You know that.

 

Don't bother responding because I’m not going to engage in conversation with what I consider to be trolling. Maybe consider spending your time on something productive instead like putting good energy out towards others or planting a garden. 

[zzyzx]

9 hours ago, BrownBobby said:

I try to be as open about this as I can. I've mentioned it several times on this forum. Many of those mentions are deleted because some person comes into the thread meaning to "preach to the lost" and convince everyone that they're hurting themselves and/or somehow mocking those who didn't choose to be incontient. They usually refuse to take any suggestions that, perhaps, what they're saying isn't actually contributing to the conversation and get a mod involved. The result is deletion of anything remotely related to it. I'm amazed these threads have stayed up so far. It's partially why I stay away from many of them - why post my story again if someone is going to come in, decide that they're going to be the hero saving people from themselves, and get it deleted?  (And before you jump to the conclusion, no, it's not because of some argumentative tone I've taken - most of the time, it's the person coming into the thread to try to "save people" that ends up flying off the handle and ironically giving the mods a reason to delete it.)

@BrownBobby:

First, before I get to my point, I need to admit this area of the board is NOT for me....

Given that, and given the issue you have faced with deletions in the past, have you consider posting something in your account's available (but currently unused by you) "about me" section?  If things keep being deleted, this could give you a space to say what you need to that I would expect wouldn't be deleted, and then you could refer to that info rather than repeat it else where.

Just a thought.

I admit I don't have any real good idea of what you or some others go through mentally.  I have enough "fun" mentally with medical issues that have resulted in incontinence and the "big boy" in me wants to shout "NOoooooooo!".  I'm sure your issues take the mental health issues to another level.