Will wearing and using diapers 24/7 shrink my bladder

[babykeiff]

15 minutes ago, oznl said:

It SEEMED to me that this statement implies is that vasopressin production is discretionary and governed by some kind of state-aware executive function (aka "decision").  

I tried to find out if this is how AVP secretion works.  The material I looked at quickly accelerated away from my capacity to easily comprehend it (beyond first aid and CPR, I have zero medical training) but as I understood it, it is a hard wired circuit driven by “osmoreceptors” (body water sensors) in the hypothalamus (the part of our brain that manages homeostasis) responding to the cessation of drinking by inhibiting fluid loss to maintain water homeostasis.

Having said that, my own experience has been that confidence was (at least initially) an important precursor to sleep voiding.  I just don't see the vector between confidence and AVP secretion disruption.  I also note that my sleep void volumes are markedly lower than similar wake time hours suggesting that vasopressin is still doing its thing.  To relate this back to the OP's original question, I therefore don't see how a decision to wear diapers could similarly alter AVP secretion but as I said, I don't know for sure.

Maybe there's an endocrinologist on board here who can disambiguate this for us 🤣

 

The decision of the amount of vasopressen produced is NOT discressionary but adaptive. Your misunderstanding is either obvious or an act at agression. Neither is acceptable behaviour.

As I stated, the body adapts to what sates the mind. A baby is trained to use a diaper, and then trained not to. A post trained child has a high chance of sleep wetting due to inability to produce enough vasopressin for the capacity of its bladder due to being overtired and/or needing longer times alseep. This balances over time, but a pre-toilet trained child does not need to use vasopressin to extend its bladder capacity.

Vasopressin not only manages water balance but also contricts members within the kidneys which effects the concentration of ones urine by reducing the amount of water being placed in the bladder. This secondary behaviour is adaptive and only employed in den living animals - to avoid one needing to void bladder while asleep. Certain animals do not do this and void while asleep.

Humans used to void autonomically while awake, but not asleep - but it is a skill that we adapted to as we wore clothes etc. Animals under threat, void before the fight/flight, as to some humans if exposed to enough of a threat / scare. Younger post toilet-trained children will soil themselves if overstressed also.  

Now, when one is attemting to recreate the wetting behaviour of a pre-toilet trained child, one has to recreate the same scenario for the body to co-operate as that is easier for the body to accept rather than attempt to learn a new behaviour from scratch. The new behaviour will be mastered, but it takes a lot more time to learn a new task instead of repeating a task previously mastered.

 

[oznl]

25 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

The decision of the amount of vasopressen produced is NOT discressionary but adaptive. Your misunderstanding is either obvious or an act at agression. Neither is acceptable behaviour.

There was certainly no aggression intended (I'm simply trying to understand your argument correctly) so the former must be the case.  I’ll try to make my future misunderstandings less, obvious 😆

So what I still don’t understand here is the mechanism whereby vasopressin production will (adaptively) reduce in consequence to a conscious decision to void at night in bed (or do I have that wrong?)  The circuit looks to be completely hormonal but your point suggests that there’s a kind of “He doesn't care about it so I’ll not bother making it” mechanism somewhere.

[babykeiff]

39 minutes ago, oznl said:

There was certainly no aggression intended (I'm simply trying to understand your argument correctly) so the former must be the case.  I’ll try to make my future misunderstandings less, obvious 😆

So what I still don’t understand here is the mechanism whereby vasopressin production will (adaptively) reduce in consequence to a conscious decision to void at night in bed (or do I have that wrong?)  The circuit looks to be completely hormonal but your point suggests that there’s a kind of “He doesn't care about it so I’ll not bother making it” mechanism somewhere.

Sleep wetting is a subcontious decision determined by how confident the mind is while asleep and how secure it is that the sleep will not be disturbed by wetting while asleep. With the body keeping itself asleep, it adapts to the situation. This changes the need for so much vasopressin which is chemically balanced with other hormones within the body which forces the body into a deeper sleep. As a result, the quantity of vasopressin is reduced earlier since it is not being used similar to all other chemicals and one way how the body adapts.

To clarify, x level is required to do y task. When x level is reached, production is stopped. If y task is not inacted,  x level is reached faster than expected, so the next time x level is required, its production is slowed down as a way to more accurately control levels. As a resut, the y action that was intended is even slower which results in next time slower production. This process repeats to the stage that hormone production to x level is not done.

[Ferix]

7 hours ago, babykeiff said:

This type of comments you make are both lies and deceptive.

This is far from what I am doing. I am trying to be as honest as possible. Since you don't elaborate on what I'm lying about, I definitely want to point out that I'm not lying about how awesome my diapers are. They truly are amazing in absorbency, leak resistance, and to top it off they look fantastic.

 

7 hours ago, babykeiff said:

You mix your personal views with misinformation to contradict another.

I'd be happy to go into further detail about any point I make.

 

7 hours ago, babykeiff said:

Did you ever hear of the concept and pratice of elimination communication - where a parent and baby communicate to allow the infant to void and not use a diaper. This makes a laugh of your statement :-

No I haven't but I looked it up. This article suggest, as many others do, that elimination communication is a method for parents to go diaper free with their babies. Furthermore, parents learn to anticipate when a baby needs to eliminate by timing, signals, cueing, and intuition. I don't see how any of this relates to untraining, especially when the article talks about elimination communication happening between infants and parents in unindustrialized countries that don't have access to diapers, and it's only a recent emergent movement in industrialized countries with access to diapers because of parents who don't want to use diapers.

7 hours ago, babykeiff said:

further details to you are a waste of my time.

Huh?

7 hours ago, babykeiff said:

As I stated, it is from your understanding, which is fully within YOUR control. As I stated before, I do not repeat the same actions expecting a different result = me telling you stuff is futile and a waste of time.

I think you may have missed the part where I linked a google search for autonomic voiding. There were many articles that the search came up with that went over autonomic voiding and the reasons why, including neurogenic bladder from trauma and congenital defect. Are you able to link us to some counter points that support your claim that autonomic voiding refers to babies?

7 hours ago, babykeiff said:

You also dare to tell me what to do. I do not answer to you for anything.

I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just curious as to how you were able to form your opinion because you say a lot of things that don't add up to anything substantive or informative and comes off confusing and disjointed; You wield lots of big words but you don't connect the dots. If you want people to take what you say seriously, you're not doing yourself any favors by the way your going about things so far.

6 hours ago, babykeiff said:

Sleep wetting is a subcontious decision determined by how confident the mind is while asleep and how secure it is that the sleep will not be disturbed by wetting while asleep. With the body keeping itself asleep, it adapts to the situation. This changes the need for so much vasopressin which is chemically balanced with other hormones within the body which forces the body into a deeper sleep. As a result, the quantity of vasopressin is reduced earlier since it is not being used similar to all other chemicals and one way how the body adapts.

To clarify, x level is required to do y task. When x level is reached, production is stopped. If y task is not inacted,  x level is reached faster than expected, so the next time x level is required, its production is slowed down as a way to more accurately control levels. As a resut, the y action that was intended is even slower which results in next time slower production. This process repeats to the stage that hormone production to x level is not done.

So how does vasopressin affect urine and bowel control? Can you do an ELI5 and provide sources? I'm not finding anything that is suggesting what you are suggesting. This seems like another assertion without evidence. Therefore, I can say you are absolutely wrong about this.

Others have speculated that you don't work in the medical field but in some other professional field, I wouldn't dare suggest you work in any field as I would not want to disparage those that work in that field by associating them with someone of your intellect.

For the amount of laughing and name calling from you, and the fact that you're the only one who can understand what you are saying, the only one in this thread that has conditioned behaviors to act like a baby seems to be you.

[babykeiff]

29 minutes ago, Ferix said:

So how does vasopressin affect urine and bowel control?

This has been answered by many here on this forum, and you re-ask the same question. The only logical reason to me that you do that is that you are seeking arguments on this sub-forum.

5 hours ago, Ferix said:

From my understanding with taking human anatomy and physiology courses, the human brain is still developing neuropathways and that babies don't understand the signals that cause urine and bowel control.

... and when I identify that this statement is a lie - otherwise, how would the pratice of elimination communication - where a parent communicate with their child so the child needs to know of their need to void in order to act on same. As a result, either the person is NOT taking the relevant courses OR is incapable of understanding that level of knowledge.

This is why, at this stage, not only will I no longer respond to him, as only a fool repeats the same action expecting a different result - I will no longer read any of his junk - I block this person.

[Kif]

Ohmigod can we please just return to the topic? Quit the damn brigading dude and leave us alone. Makes the entire forum feel unwelcome!

Anyway, I'm not sure that it will *shrink* the bladder or not, but I can confirm after a flow test with my doc that the urgency definitely increased as I'd lose control at <100mL (and the weirdest part is it didn't feel like a small volume). Buuuuut pending some more tests to confirm how much is related to pelvic floor changes following surgery and how much is ... who knows what.

Semi-related, I do wonder if the bladder can actually "shrink" or if when folks describe it that way it's just a way of describing the increased urgency of OAB and urge incontinence. At least in my case I do suspect that it's an urgency thing more-so than e.g. the bladder literally shrinking, since after trying anticholinergics my volume increased (though I stopped those because of the awful side effects).

I've also been assured by my doc that pelvic floor exercises can help undo things, but when reading about folks doing that in the incon communities (e.g. not here) the results seem mixed and overall attitude a bit pessimistic.

[Elfy]

A message to everyone:

Please keep things civil and friendly. Everyone talking here wants or is interested in the same thing (or at least they should be or they shouldn't be in here) there is no need for anyone to get heated. Please keep the thread on topic and try to avoid arguing.

Thank you.

[Diaperman123]

On 9/8/2023 at 6:37 PM, Ferix said:

After 6 years of untriaining, I'm very certain that my bladder is hypersensitive to any amount of fluid being in there. It's impossible to say it's shrank without it being measured, but it certainly feels like it. I spent the first few years of my untraining focusing on keeping my bladder empty; I trained myself to wet at the slightest urge, pee in any position or situation, practicing reverse kegals, and I even trained myself how to pee when I don't feel the urge. After 3 years, I didn't feel like I lost bladder control but I definitely had intense urges.

 

At around 5 years was when I started noticing that once an urge hit, I was already peeing without any mental thought on what was happening down there. I notice this most when I'm focused on something else and I find myself mid-pee. I don't really pee in my sleep because my body usually wakes me up to the urge, I think this is more due to me being a light sleeper from 15 years of working as an EMT and needing to wake up and respond at a moment's notice. It doesn't take long after I wake up to the urge to pee that my bladder will contract and I'll start to pee uncontrollably. If I wake up with the urge to pee and try to stand up, I'm peeing almost immediately after I stand up. There's really only been a couple times where I peed in my sleep.

 

It's unfortunate that @babykeiff has resorted to name calling. There's no need to call anyone "pityful", "ignorant", "a fool", and "stupid". It seems like @Hannah YMS was trying to engage in a reasonable conversation while being polite and articulate about it. What you say does not line up with my experience or the experience of others that talk about their untraining in the incontinence desires sub-forum. If you really do feel like what you have to say has merit, then can you explain how you got to your reasoning without resorting to name calling?

Damn I’ve been lurking on my own post. It’s interesting because you were looking into getting surgery to remove both sphincters to induce incontinence and with your bladder like being hypersensitive it’s almost a type of incontinence however it is milder than if you had gotten surgery but I don’t know I started it to see if It could induce incontinence or if I should try for surgery I have funds, a therapist that’s said they will help me but my urologist wants to try non surgical procedures first idk why though? Also should I turn it into a topic?

[LiChBo]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:32 AM, babykeiff said:

This type of comments you make are both lies and deceptive.

You mix your personal views with misinformation to contradict another.

Did you ever hear of the concept and pratice of elimination communication - where a parent and baby communicate to allow the infant to void and not use a diaper. This makes a laugh of your statement :-

further details to you are a waste of my time.

As I stated, it is from your understanding, which is fully within YOUR control. As I stated before, I do not repeat the same actions expecting a different result = me telling you stuff is futile and a waste of time.

You also dare to tell me what to do. I do not answer to you for anything.

Dude, you're a conspiracy theorist. You act like a conspiracy theorist, you think like a conspiracy theorist. Sure, all of us in this thread are far from evidence-based science, but you're the furthest away. No negativity - just be polite to others since we're all in the same a-hole boat.
Thanks for the input, no thanks for the harsh language

[babykeiff]

7 hours ago, LiChBo said:

Dude, you're a conspiracy theorist. You act like a conspiracy theorist, you think like a conspiracy theorist. Sure, all of us in this thread are far from evidence-based science, but you're the furthest away. No negativity - just be polite to others since we're all in the same a-hole boat.
Thanks for the input, no thanks for the harsh language

Ok, don't believe what I post. I really don't care.

[Hannah YMS]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:19 PM, babykeiff said:

The word pitiful / pityful has the two spellings and both are correct. For someone to correct it, and then snigger, to me is a fool laughing at their own lack of education / knowledge and inabilty to grow. I don't waste my time trying to tell same people anything as it would be futile. - only a fool repeats the same action expecting a different result

Alright, I'll bite again. I would like you to cite your source for where "pityful" is a correct spelling in any English dialect. Since I gather that you're from Europe somewhere, I thought to myself, "okay, this may have a different spelling in British English than my American one," similar to "tyre" vs "tire", so I looked it up. And I still cannot find where "pityful" is an acceptable spelling in any form of modern-day English. I'll begin. A simple Google search of "is pityful correct spelling?" yields:

1. Understanding that I spell in the American English spelling system, I thought I'd check Cambridge's dictionary first.
   1. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/pitiful -- valid web page, showing the correct spelling across British English spelling.
   2. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/pityful -- invalid web page which redirects you to the front page.
   3. Cambridge dictionary disagrees with you.
2. Followed by a well established American Dictionary.
   1. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pitiful -- valid web page, showing the correct spelling across American English spelling.
   2. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pityful -- I quote, "The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above."
   3. Merriam-Webster disagrees with you.
3. Alright, not every dictionary can possibly be correct, so how about the rest of the Internet?
   1. https://thecontentauthority.com/blog/pitiful-vs-pityful -- I quote, "Are you confused about whether to use pitiful or pityful? Don’t worry, you’re not alone. These two words are often used interchangeably, but there is actually a correct spelling. The proper word is pitiful. Pityful is not a recognized word in the English language. Pitiful means evoking or deserving of pity, while pityful is a misspelling of the word."
      1. This is just a blog, a source which cannot be trusted, so we'll move on.
   2. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pitiful -- valid web page, showing the correct spelling yet again.
   3. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/pityful -- I quote, "No results found for pityful"
      1. But what does dictionary.com know? Apparently more than I do, so I keep searching.
   4. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/pitiful -- valid web page, showing the correct spelling yet again.
   5. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/spellcheck/english?q=pityful -- I quote, 'Sorry, no results for “pityful” in the English Dictionary.'
      1. But I don't know who this "Collins" person is, so they're wrong too I suppose.
   6. https://www.grammar.com/pitiful-correct-spelling -- valid web page, showing the correct spelling yet again.
      1. Grammar.com isn't an authority though, is it? No, probably not. Perhaps you got your spelling from grammer.com? Let's continue.
   7. https://dict.hinkhoj.com/spell-checker/check-spelling-of-pityful.html -- I quote, "Spelling for pityful is possibly wrong as per our information."
      1. This is a Hindi-English dictionary website. At least they admit that it can be wrong. But people who speak Hindi can't possibly know how to spell this word correctly, can they? Let's keep going.
   8. https://www.spellcheck.net/pitiful -- valid web page, showing the correct spelling yet again.
   9. https://www.spellcheck.net/pityful -- I quote, "pityful - Are you sure you typed it correctly?"
      1. Spellcheck.net isn't a valid authority though, right? If that's the case, let's move on.
   10. https://word.tips/spelling/pitiful-vs-pityful/ -- this is such a common misspelling, there's even a page specifically addressing it. Again, "pitiful" is correct whereas "pityful" is not.

There's 10 immediate references you can check to verify my foolish claims.

Speaking of which...

On 9/8/2023 at 5:19 PM, babykeiff said:

The definition of a 'fool' is someone that is incapable of learning from their own errors.

Incorrect again my uneducable friend. The definition of "fool", according to the Cambridge dictionary, is "a person who behaves in a silly way without thinking" (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fool). You're going to have to demonstrate which ways I've behaved in a silly way without thinking, and I'm pretty certain you will be unable to do that. Other definitions of "fool":

• "a person lacking in judgment or prudence" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fool)
• "a silly or stupid person; a person who lacks judgment or sense" (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fool)
• etc. I could keep going, but I'm bored with this now. Onto the fun part.

The word you are looking for to describe me is "uneducable":

• "not able to be educated or to learn" (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/uneducable)
• "incapable of being educated : not educable" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/uneducable)
• Do I need to go on?

On 9/8/2023 at 5:19 PM, babykeiff said:

I pity someone who has not got the ability to be taught in any form. In every encounter in my life, it is a learning experience and a teaching experience. I don't blindly accept what is told to me, I either prove or disprove it - and then I improve myy knowledge base.

You and I agree on something at least.

On 9/8/2023 at 5:19 PM, babykeiff said:

As such, would it not be advisable to have empirical data to support your theory considering your statements[?]

I know this quote is taken out of the context of showing how uneducable I am, but since you bring this up, where's your data? If you can show me a reputable source for the demonstrably incorrect spelling of "pityful", I'll look into it myself and confirm or deny your claim. Please, let's see a citation, O Educable One. Please enlighten this subforum with your brilliance of which the likes we've never seen! I prostrate myself before your overwhelming knowledge in all things both known and unknown.

You see, @babykeiff, for one as educated and knowledgeable such as yourself, if you're going to debate or discuss a topic, AND you also demand to see the data to back up seemingly verifiable claims, why do you cower and throw a temper tantrum when the same is asked of you? Someone, and I can't remember who at the moment (I'm too lazy to scroll up a little -- after all, my work week is over and I care not), once said in this thread:

On 9/8/2023 at 5:19 PM, babykeiff said:

As such, would it not be advisable to have empirical data to support your theory considering your statements[?]

Oh, woops, I just noticed. You said that. I think it's time you bring some receipts, my friend. I wish you a pleasant evening and best of luck.

[cathdiap]

On 8/11/2023 at 12:24 AM, Diaperman123 said:

I was wondering if I did start peeing whenever I felt the slightest urge in my bladder would it start to shrink 

This article from Harvard claims it is possible (fourth paragraph).

Real-life examples tell me that people who have less opportunity to empty their bladder generally have a larger bladder (women, cab drivers, truck drivers). So if you never have to hold your pee, I think your bladder will adapt to that as well.

In case the link above doesn't work, here's the text of the article.

Training your bladder

April 20, 2010

Treatment choices for urinary incontinence range from lifestyle changes to surgery. Your treatment will depend on the underlying problems causing the incontinence. But keep in mind that no treatment works perfectly, and you may have to try more than one approach before you find the one that best suits your needs. Treatments may be different for men and women. Because there are a variety of options, your preferences are important in developing a plan.

For example, a woman may be a candidate for either injections of bulking agents or a sling procedure. If she is in her 40s and likes to do kickboxing for exercise, she may not be dry enough with the injections and may choose sling surgery. A woman with similar exam and test results but a less active lifestyle might get along fine with injections.

It's also important to know that less invasive treatments, such as biofeedback or pelvic floor exercises, are a good first step and can be helpful, but may not be as effective as some surgical procedures. You and your physician need to decide which is most appropriate for you. Check with your health plan to find out which therapies are covered. Treatment for urinary incontinence is an area of active research, and new approaches are under development.

Bladder training

You might be teaching your bladder some bad habits—habits that can gradually result in incontinence or frequent bathroom breaks. For example, if you routinely urinate before your bladder is full, it learns to signal the need to go when less volume is present. That can set up a vicious cycle, as you respond to the new urges and teach your bladder to cry "run" when less and less urine is present.

Luckily, old bladders can learn new tricks. Bladder training, a program of urinating on schedule, enables you to gradually increase the amount of urine you can comfortably hold. Bladder training is a mainstay of treatment for urinary frequency and overactive bladder in both women and men, alone or in conjunction with medications or other techniques. It can also help prevent or lessen symptoms of overactive bladder that may emerge after surgery for stress incontinence. You can try it on your own or with the guidance and support of a health professional. Because bladder training is low-cost and low-risk, your clinician may encourage you to try it first, even before specific diagnostic tests are performed.

[babykeiff]

14 hours ago, cathdiap said:

This article from Harvard claims it is possible (fourth paragraph).

Real-life examples tell me that people who have less opportunity to empty their bladder generally have a larger bladder (women, cab drivers, truck drivers). So if you never have to hold your pee, I think your bladder will adapt to that as well.

In case the link above doesn't work, here's the text of the article.

Training your bladder

April 20, 2010

Treatment choices for urinary incontinence range from lifestyle changes to surgery. Your treatment will depend on the underlying problems causing the incontinence. But keep in mind that no treatment works perfectly, and you may have to try more than one approach before you find the one that best suits your needs. Treatments may be different for men and women. Because there are a variety of options, your preferences are important in developing a plan.

For example, a woman may be a candidate for either injections of bulking agents or a sling procedure. If she is in her 40s and likes to do kickboxing for exercise, she may not be dry enough with the injections and may choose sling surgery. A woman with similar exam and test results but a less active lifestyle might get along fine with injections.

It's also important to know that less invasive treatments, such as biofeedback or pelvic floor exercises, are a good first step and can be helpful, but may not be as effective as some surgical procedures. You and your physician need to decide which is most appropriate for you. Check with your health plan to find out which therapies are covered. Treatment for urinary incontinence is an area of active research, and new approaches are under development.

Bladder training

You might be teaching your bladder some bad habits—habits that can gradually result in incontinence or frequent bathroom breaks. For example, if you routinely urinate before your bladder is full, it learns to signal the need to go when less volume is present. That can set up a vicious cycle, as you respond to the new urges and teach your bladder to cry "run" when less and less urine is present.

Luckily, old bladders can learn new tricks. Bladder training, a program of urinating on schedule, enables you to gradually increase the amount of urine you can comfortably hold. Bladder training is a mainstay of treatment for urinary frequency and overactive bladder in both women and men, alone or in conjunction with medications or other techniques. It can also help prevent or lessen symptoms of overactive bladder that may emerge after surgery for stress incontinence. You can try it on your own or with the guidance and support of a health professional. Because bladder training is low-cost and low-risk, your clinician may encourage you to try it first, even before specific diagnostic tests are performed.

Yes, it it true that the more one 'holds' the bladder, the larger it can grow. This is part of how the body adapts - i.e. it gets used to a feeling of a full bladder so it doesn't signal the need as an urgency. The reverse can happen, if one releases more frequently, the bladder gets used to emptying more often so it signals the need earlier and earlier. However, this creates a problem for those who wish to revert to diaper dependancy. Yes, one will need to wear a diaper due to the decreased time between voiding and the usual associated urgency, however, each time they void they will be fully aware of it. Overnight, similar will occur where the need to void will wake same person. Although for some, this is enough, but the associated need to wake to void will also disrupt any quality of life that may exist. I'd predict that a person following that behaviour will eventually be dependent on diaper that they wet every 30-45 mins, where they are asleep / partially awake while their bladder fills, fully awake to void, and then revert to be partially awake / asleep for the next 30-45 mins on a continual basis. This will remove ones ability to take care of oneself in any form, and would, in my opinion, be hell on earth.

Now we address the actual goal of members here - to revert to the voiding frequency of a baby combined with ignoring the event plus forgetting that they wet - the key goal of most ABs - without removing any quality of life and/or ability of the person to function in society.

This happens with a baby (although a baby does not usually function in society as an addition, but does interact with elements in society) due to two reasons - the baby has been taught to do this plus a baby does not know about an alternative. As a result, a baby does this awake or asleep as it has never been taught that needing to void is something to be alarmed about - something that is deep within the adult mind, something that needs to be 'unlearnt'. Otherwise, the effect of the alarm will be all that the adult will be dealing with. Yes, there is a line of though that repeating behaviour is ignored, but this repeating alarm is designed to wake the individual - which due to the frequency being 30-45 mins, this means that the adult is awake once an hour every hour which stops the adult entering REM sleep which will eventually kill the person due to severe exhaustion. So yes, that process will work where you might wet while asleep, but the associated costs involved is something I'd advise against.

The way to unlearn the alarm process is to address the reason one is alarmed about voiding - when a baby is being toilet trained, what is first done is to remove the security the baby has with its diapers. This is done by creating the situation so that the baby is uncomfortable when it wets. This is done by placing the baby in single layer cloth underwear or training pants. As a result, the baby gets almost instant feedback that it is wet, which makes it cold nd due to this being a shock to the system, the baby reacts by crying. This is repeated time and time again, so the baby learns that every time it needs to wet, the corresponding event of it being cold and wet will occur - a feeling it doesn't like. The next step in training is to introduce the baby to the potty. This becomes and autonomic response for the baby, to go to the potty everytime it needs to wet as a soloution to prevent a future event of being wet and cold. Because the baby is now focusing on the signals within its bladder, and reacting to same, this becomes aquired knowledge - which is built on overnight. There will be times when the babies focus is elsewhere and said baby will wet, but since the result is so strong, it enforces the memory event and the baby learns to control its bladder day and night.

This is the situation that most toilet trained people face, they do not trust enough that the diapers that they are wearing will prevent the effect of them feeling cold and wet - and since that memory is extremly strong in their memory (it was what drove them to toilet train, and is also associated with the feeling of wearing a diaper and early childhood) this tends to force the mind to fully focus on the filling of the bladder which is contary to the goal of most people here.

As a result, one needs to relearn to fully trust their diapers as they did as a baby - actually a baby doesn't know that they trusted their diapers - they trusted the people around them to keep them dry and comfortable as the baby was never put in a situation prior to being toilet trained where they were not wrapped in a comfortable environment. The baby also reacts to all events without question - and that includes the feelings of bladder and bowels. Another behaviour which is sometimes forgot is that a baby relaxes all muscles when it does not need to use them, including those within bladder and bowels - as it has not learnt to hold same. There never was a reason for it to keep muscles etc in a position. As a result, when material is placed within its bladder and/or bowels, and as its sphincters are in a semi-relaxed state, the relevant bladder and bowels rarely used to expand (unless some reason triggered it to close same) so the need to void was rare, but the baby still weeped urine / feces into its diapers OR forced same from the result of other triggers.

For a toilet trained individual to 'relearn' the same behaviour, one has to recreate the same environment in as much as possible. The problem with an adult mind is that it knows to watch for the bladder / bowels expanding and this is an alarm. Any behaviour that doesn't effect this alarm process is futile in attaining the goal of 'unknown' diaper filling.

I suggest that one does the following:-

• recreate the environment - thick diapers, limited to zero feedback, no chance of leaks, associated infatile behaviour of bottles, recreate the sounds (plastic russle) and smells (baby powder) of babyhood.

The mind, since it is always learning, will learn the response from wetting said diaper - there will be no effect to the wet diaper - but since the mind is more accurate that what it reports to you, it will try a little and keep increasing quantity until it is fully convinced that the environment will not cause the 'cold and wet' feeling it is trying to avoid.

This has a secondry effect - it removes the reason for the alarm of a filling bladder / bowels. As a result, the mind will adapt to the new situation of wetting / messing without informing you since it no longer is needed.

This behaviour is so similar to the baby method of voiding, the mind will paralell this new behaviour with what it already knows and trusts, which will mean that the body will repeat said behaviour of partially to fully relaxing all its muscles unless it is using same. This is a conservation of energy process, which matches what the mind wants.

Because of the partial to complete relaxion of muscles including sphincters, the need for bladder / bowel to expand is removed. This has the secondary effect of bladder / bowel shrinkage and eventual athrophy of these muscles, which also increases the frequency of voiding but also decreases each volumn.

Since the bladder and bowels have athropied, this becomes an unreversable process.

Any other process, ie focusing on bladder/bowel content and focusing on release although might increase ones frequency and decrease volumn, it does not address the alarm process. As a result, in obtaining the goal of diaper dependance similar to a baby, all it addresses is diaper dependance, but does not improve ones standard of life

- and that type of concept of addressing an issue without addressing and/or improving ones quality of life is a common behaviour of the medical industry. Quality of life is usually dismissed in favour, in the medical industry, of profit generation., and that, many people here have experienced first hand.

[babykeiff]

@cathdiap

thank you for reposting this excerpt from the harvard medical file, where it explains a concept that is foreign to a lot of naysayers here. The concept is that the bladder can be taught to grow OR shrink based on how one uses it. The second, and more important concept is that because one is teaching the bladder to void earlier, the bodies alarm system will grow used to that level and inform the person of the need earlier and earlier.

In my humble belief, that is what @Hannah YMS and others are doing, teaching their bladder to void earlier and earlier. They have stated that in diapers they wet *almost by reflex, but out of diapers they are uncomfortable, but still have bladder control. 

As a result, all they have done is decreased the level of when their bladder needs to empty without addressing, in any form, the alarm system OR the reason for the alarm.

When I said that on this post and others, all I get is abuse, arguments etc.

When another member stated that they 'think' that their bladder capacity might have reduced, and is in the medical feild, and I ask them to actually measure it (that for most needs a little thinking, but for someone in the medical training, it should be second nature to be able to measure the volume of a liquid!) he gets annoyed.

I think that if someone is attempting to complete a task, as a way to calculate progress, one must be able to measure same, even roughly as a comparison to how far one has reached on said task. To measure bladder capacity, all one need is a plastic measuring jug, and some time. Go to a bathroom, sit on a diaper on the toilet and place ones item into the measuring jug. If they are voiding approx every hour in a diaper, they should not need to wait long to void into said jug. Read the quantity of liquid in said jug and note the value. Repeat the process every few days. An average adult will be triggered to void at circa 400ml.

A baby wets every 20-45 minutes and does it as easily as coughing / breathing - as it is reacting to the need to void OR voiding by gravity. I have explained the reason in other posts, but most self convinced people here don't want to listen - as they think that everything they do is correct, and since what I am saying is different, I must be wrong. After all, I am a conspirary theorist of the worst kind - and these are the same people that believe that to learn something, i.e. by rote, they have to repeat it a number of times for the mind to store it - after all, that is what they did in school to learn a poem etc. Today, approx 10 years later, none of them could repeat any of the poems that they though that they learnt by rote -  they forgot it. It is a concept that is hammered all the way through education - do and repeat, and repeat and you will get better. Well, the human mind is far better than that stupid way of thinking, and is capable of adapting faster than most people can think - but for it to do same, it has to fully trust the scenario - which none of the 'try this and see if it works' people can even accept never mind understand. It is one of the reasons a babies mind can absorb information and learn so fast as opposed to most adults in general.

There is an axiom in life, that came from an advertisement - "before you make up your mind, open it"  which is very apt in most situation in life.

At this stage, I don't really care if people don't agree with me here - what I state has been proven by other ABs on other posts, not only here but on other ABDL sites, so at this stage, believe what you will - I am tired of repeating myself and hearing the same weak arguments against it. Hopefully maturity will teach these people, but I doubt it - they may be so set in their ways that they will still be trying to get a different result by repeating the same flawed process at age 70+.

[Kevin140]

On 9/16/2023 at 9:19 AM, cathdiap said:

 

Bladder training

You might be teaching your bladder some bad habits—habits that can gradually result in incontinence or frequent bathroom breaks. For example, if you routinely urinate before your bladder is full, it learns to signal the need to go when less volume is present. That can set up a vicious cycle, as you respond to the new urges and teach your bladder to cry "run" when less and less urine is present.

 

This corresponds 100% to my type of training, I also looked for articles published here in Germany about what you can do about an overactive bladder: That's exactly what I didn't do or did the opposite of it.

The Harvard article explains exactly what can cause an overactive bladder, and yes, that's exactly what I do. And now it works, I have to urinate every 20-40 minutes when I'm well hydrated. But I only wear diapers at day, or if I don't wear I use the toilet at home if I had the lighted urge.

But this doesn't apply to the night, so I now come to the following post:

14 hours ago, babykeiff said:

Overnight, similar will occur where the need to void will wake same person. Although for some, this is enough, but the associated need to wake to void will also disrupt any quality of life that may exist. I'd predict that a person following that behaviour will eventually be dependent on diaper that they wet every 30-45 mins, where they are asleep / partially awake while their bladder fills, fully awake to void, and then revert to be partially awake / asleep for the next 30-45 mins on a continual basis. This will remove ones ability to take care of oneself in any form, and would, in my opinion, be hell on earth.

 

 

If I remember correctly, I read in another post that there are chemical processes in the body that control urination differently at night than during the day - correct me if I'm wrong here or just add it.

From my experience I can report that I had to go to the toilet once at night before training and had been doing this for about 10 years.

Due to the progress I have made in my training, I now usually have to go to the toilet twice, in rare cases three times, at night.

Now you might think that keeping it at night would impair the process of shrinking the bladder. This could be certainly the case, otherwise I might have made even more and faster progress, or perhaps even reached urge incontinence.

But I'm happy with the current state of things and don't want to change anything or only a little.

Of course, I don't know whether the frequency of nighttime urination is just me or whether it's different for other people? Maybe someone can report here who is going the same way.

I just want to allay the fears of everyone here who wants to take this path: it's a fulfillment, it doesn't affect my quality of life, it improves it and for me is this the opposite from hell on earth!

[babykeiff]

2 minutes ago, Kevin140 said:

This corresponds 100% to my type of training, I also looked for articles published here in Germany about what you can do about an overactive bladder: That's exactly what I didn't do or did the opposite of it.

The Harvard article explains exactly what can cause an overactive bladder, and yes, that's exactly what I do. And now it works, I have to urinate every 20-40 minutes when I'm well hydrated. But I only wear diapers at day, or if I don't wear I use the toilet at home if I had the lighted urge.

But this doesn't apply to the night, so I now come to the following post:

 

If I remember correctly, I read in another post that there are chemical processes in the body that control urination differently at night than during the day - correct me if I'm wrong here or just add it.

From my experience I can report that I had to go to the toilet once at night before training and had been doing this for about 10 years.

Due to the progress I have made in my training, I now usually have to go to the toilet twice, in rare cases three times, at night.

Now you might think that keeping it at night would impair the process of shrinking the bladder. This could be certainly the case, otherwise I might have made even more and faster progress, or perhaps even reached urge incontinence.

But I'm happy with the current state of things and don't want to change anything or only a little.

Of course, I don't know whether the frequency of nighttime urination is just me or whether it's different for other people? Maybe someone can report here who is going the same way.

I just want to allay the fears of everyone here who wants to take this path: it's a fulfillment, it doesn't affect my quality of life, it improves it and for me is this the opposite from hell on earth!

Night time voiding is about two linked items,

1. ones confidence in that wetting will not wake you / make you cold
2. the amount of vasopressin (an ADH chemical that restricts elements in the kidneys and therefore, reduces the amount of liquid being placed in the bladder) being produced. This quantity is reactive - i.e. there is a sensor that measures its quantity in the blood and if that is lower than what was determined to be the value required to keep you from needing to wake, the value will be increased.

You can't directly control vasopressin levels, but can influnce it by addressing the self confidence. This is done by, in as much as possible, repeat the scenario you were in as a baby, but over exagerate it. Sound, smell, feelings are excelent memory triggers - and you want your mind to believe that you still are a baby where you wet your diapers without recourse. So, thick cloth diapers, noisy plastic pants, noisy plastic sheet under the bed sheets, reeking of baby powder, and if you had a mobile as a baby, replay the sounds of same at a low volumn in your bedroom. Getting thickly *(waddle thick) diapered 1-2 hours before bed is ideal as you will be getting into bed in a already damp diaper, but you really should not feel that in your conscious mind.

This shoud convince your mind that even a wet diaper does not disturb your sleep, so the first night, your bladder will release a little bit before waking you -  what you should do is contine to wet without moving - after all, you trust your diaper and it is thick enough to cope with way over what you would put in it. The second night repeating this process, you will wake up, but you will be half asleep while you wet. The third and forth night, you might not even wake. After a week or so of this, you will not be waking up until the morning, and you should find that you are soaking your diaper.

The actual time line identified is different per person, but is only controlled by how much you trust your diapers - and nothing else.

This process will work faster or slower, but does work and has worked for many members here and elsewhere. It also effects the vasopressin production AND accordingly, the bladder size but that takes time. It is not until the bladder volumn had reduced to mean that you are voiding every 20-45 mins should you reduce the size of the night time diaper - as you need the capacity not only to cover you overnight, but to also remove any posibility of leaks overnight - as all it takes is one leak to reset your mind back to the beginning.

In relation to shrinking the bladder, if it is a side effect of voiding multiple times without notice, that is the ideal situation. However, if it is the side effect of you focusing on the bladder to keep it as empty as possible - that is a problem as the focusing is what a baby being toilet trained did - until it eventually learned to control same. You need to avoid 'knowing' that you need to void - and to just void as needed. This removes the alarm trigger to wake, and due to you waking 3 times a night, that gives your bladder capacity roughly 400ml but with the urgency alarm set at 150ml. Yes, you could last all night not waking, but your body has learnt to wake you at 150 and not let you sleep. If you convince your body with a thick multi layer cloth diaper that your diaper doesn't leak, the body very quickly reverts to voiding the 150 ml three times a night without waking you, which will increase in frequency while decreasing in volumn  - i.e. 30-60ml every 20-40 minutes (similar voiding volumn and frequency of daytime).

In your specific case, your bladder might have shrunk to about 130 - 200ml since that is roughly the volume you void three times a night based on the common 400-600ml urine production overnight an adult produces.

 

[Kevin140]

Thank you for your detailed information of Vasopressin definition, that is what I asked for, to understand my own special experiences at night. In my case I don't want to be a bedwetter, but it help me to understand how this all work together, and I think, to everyone here, who wants to be a bedwetter it is a really good advice!

 

As I am on the way to archive now an overactive bladder, I can tell you from my daytime experience, I've gone out for a walk with my dog, and I forgot my diaper, but I was in the forest behind our street and can let it go anywhere I want, when I want: After half an hour I got a slide urge, and I said: no, wait. It developed in 10 minutes to on nearly overflowing urge, where I had to urinate as fast as I can!

 

You asked other people about the amount of urination, I can tell you, that because I have measured before and now. For the next things I write - I hope I don't tell things that other people scares. I am German, and we use to have half a liter beer glasses! Sometimes I peed in them (I know the chemicals in the dishwasher will do their thing), and I had to stop, because I have had to pee much more than the size of the glas, when I have a strong urge. Now, it is filled up half or a third, by the same urge!

 

I couldn't be happier, I modified my body to the way I want to be, as far as possible at the moment. I have to use toilet very often, and after this I get a big wet spot in my underwear from post void dribbling, if I wear short pants two to three dribbles run down my legs, this is the moment when I am so really happy that I have changed so much through my training over 5 years!

 

When I go to the city, I am really diaper dependent! Do you want to go to the toilet every 20 or 40 minutes. No! Not really! Now, I am no longer a diaper lover, I am really diaper dependent. I hope all of you will get what you want, and will be so happy as I am, then! *love*

[babykeiff]

4 hours ago, Kevin140 said:

Thank you for your detailed information....

You are more than welcome.

4 hours ago, Kevin140 said:

I am German, and we use to have half a liter beer glasses! Sometimes I peed in them (I know the chemicals in the dishwasher will do their thing), and I had to stop, because I have had to pee much more than the size of the glas, when I have a strong urge. Now, it is filled up half or a third, by the same urge!

that is approx 800ml, which is almost twice the average adult capacity, however, you don't get signals until it is close to full with an extreme urgency. The extreme urgency is part of self-protection mechanism since that volume is causing reverse pressure on your kidneys and needs to empty or burst. The post void dribbling identifies that the bladder does not fully empty, which is understandable since I suspect that the muscular bag that is the bladder in you has been overstretched - and the overstretched part of the bladder is damaged muscle that can't constrict similar to the rest of the bladder nor can it sense urine being placed in the bladder. It also could be that you trained yourself to ignore bladder signals similar to a long distance truck driver, and thus increased your bladder size, but that would not create the partial emptying that you have.

I suspect that you are a little overweight - as that would explain why you need to void overnight multiple times as when you lay down, the bladder is being partially squashed and thus reducing its capacity.

Adding your age into the equation, that places you roughly middle age, which does not correspond with behaviour modification to alter bladder size unless this was done during childhood or as a result of an accident, as that type of differences to the bladder is extremely rare as a birth defect. Your age suggests that you were toilet trained circa at 18 months, the average for that generation, which would not cause this type of bladder size difference.

4 hours ago, Kevin140 said:

When I go to the city, I am really diaper dependent

This suggests, since you void every 20-40 minutes, that your bladder is overfilling and therefore emptying what is being overfilled, but I'd expect the volumn to be close to 30-50ml every 20-40 mins, rather than 700ml+ every 20-40mins, as if you are voiding that amount every 20-40 mins, I would suggest that you go to a doctor to check your blood and kidneys. I'd still advise you to go to a doctor to address your restrictive voiding as you are keeping a quantity of urine in your bladder which can lead to complications such as urinary tract and kidney infections.

[longislandguy]

26 minutes ago, babykeiff said:The post void dribbling identifies that the bladder does not fully empty, which is understandable since I suspect that the muscular bag that is the bladder in you has been overstretched - and the overstretched part of the bladder is damaged muscle that can't constrict similar to the rest of the bladder nor can it sense urine being placed in the bladder. It also could be that you trained yourself to ignore bladder signals similar to a long distance truck driver, and thus increased your bladder size, but that would not create the partial emptying that you have  

That is a reasonable explanation for why I have been dribbling after a void for years. Makes perfect sense. Never gave it a thought before. 

[babykeiff]

13 minutes ago, longislandguy said:

That is a reasonable explanation for why I have been dribbling after a void for years. Makes perfect sense. Never gave it a thought before. 

If you are post mitricration dribbling, and have what is termed as overflow incontinence, I suggest that you see a specialist / doctor not before gets worse, but before it causes permanant kidney/bladder damage as usually any form of incontinence is a symptom of a hidden larger issue.

Those who train diaper dependance to void low volumes at high frequency without prior notice i.e. similar behaviour as a baby is the rare behaviour that is not caused by hidden larger issues.

[Kevin140]

7 hours ago, babykeiff said:

If you are post mitricration dribbling, and have what is termed as overflow incontinence, I suggest that you see a specialist / doctor not before gets worse, but before it causes permanant kidney/bladder damage as usually any form of incontinence is a symptom of a hidden larger issue.

Those who train diaper dependance to void low volumes at high frequency without prior notice i.e. similar behaviour as a baby is the rare behaviour that is not caused by hidden larger issues.

 

8 hours ago, babykeiff said:

You are more than welcome.

that is approx 800ml, which is almost twice the average adult capacity, however, you don't get signals until it is close to full with an extreme urgency. The extreme urgency is part of self-protection mechanism since that volume is causing reverse pressure on your kidneys and needs to empty or burst. The post void dribbling identifies that the bladder does not fully empty, which is understandable since I suspect that the muscular bag that is the bladder in you has been overstretched - and the overstretched part of the bladder is damaged muscle that can't constrict similar to the rest of the bladder nor can it sense urine being placed in the bladder. It also could be that you trained yourself to ignore bladder signals similar to a long distance truck driver, and thus increased your bladder size, but that would not create the partial emptying that you have.

I suspect that you are a little overweight - as that would explain why you need to void overnight multiple times as when you lay down, the bladder is being partially squashed and thus reducing its capacity.

Adding your age into the equation, that places you roughly middle age, which does not correspond with behaviour modification to alter bladder size unless this was done during childhood or as a result of an accident, as that type of differences to the bladder is extremely rare as a birth defect. Your age suggests that you were toilet trained circa at 18 months, the average for that generation, which would not cause this type of bladder size difference.

This suggests, since you void every 20-40 minutes, that your bladder is overfilling and therefore emptying what is being overfilled, but I'd expect the volumn to be close to 30-50ml every 20-40 mins, rather than 700ml+ every 20-40mins, as if you are voiding that amount every 20-40 mins, I would suggest that you go to a doctor to check your blood and kidneys. I'd still advise you to go to a doctor to address your restrictive voiding as you are keeping a quantity of urine in your bladder which can lead to complications such as urinary tract and kidney infections.

 

Thank you for your advice.

The amount of my urination changes in the last 5 years, I started at, what you expect, 800 ml. At this time my urologist, never found anything on the size of my bladder.

After three years of training to get an overactive bladder the amount was 500 ml and less. 

When I met the urologist after 4 years of training, he identified, that I have a under avarege small bladder. This was the first time, when he said something like this. Since two years I let check my blood values and there are no abnormalities. 

This year I told my urologist, that I have to go to toilet twice the night, and he told me this depends on my small bladder, my age, and if this does not effect my quality of life, I do not need treatment. He don't know about my training. So if there is something wrong, he should have detected it with my yearly complete check.

Of course it not effects my quality of life, because I changed the things through my training, and I expected these results.

No one of my doctors detect an overweight at 1,82 m and 76 kg, my BMI with 52 years is 22,9!

A keeping of quantity of urine in the bladder after urination wasn't also found by the last check. The dribbling after urination comes from weak bladder muscles caused by my training, because there are no other illness indications.

So, the result of all this, is that all abnormal function of my bladder comes from my excessive successful training to pee my diaper or go to toilet on the slightest urge for over 5 years.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Kevin140
translation error

[longislandguy]

8 hours ago, babykeiff said:

If you are post mitricration dribbling, and have what is termed as overflow incontinence, 

Hmm..interesting. I guess I just never really thought of a few drops as incontinence.  I guess I always thought that as a bigger event. 

[babykeiff]

59 minutes ago, longislandguy said:

Hmm..interesting. I guess I just never really thought of a few drops as incontinence.  I guess I always thought that as a bigger event. 

Medical definition of incontince is a wierd one, as its definition is used incorrectly by everyone from a junior administrator in insurance to senior medical practioners, where each use is intended to mean something else.

All forms of bladder/bowel loss that is unexpected is something to be concerned about, as bladder/bowel loss is normally a symptom of something more series. Therefore, since it is a symptom, symtoms have been known to get worse unless the original issue is addressed - as a result, I'd advise you to consult with a medical professional if only to rule out any possible issues.

[babykeiff]

3 hours ago, Kevin140 said:

Thank you for your advice.

...

You are welcome

3 hours ago, Kevin140 said:

...

The amount of my urination changes in the last 5 years, I started at, what you expect, 800 ml. At this time my urologist, never found anything on the size of my bladder.

...

Did your urologist use a cystoscope (camera etc that examines the interior bladder wall and urethra etc.?) as a 800ml bladder capacity is realitively high - or would that size relate to your living/work history? Normal adult bladder capacity is 300ml to 500ml, and can stretch to 800ml depending on paitent behaviour and work environment - i.e. long distance driver etc where voiding frequency is reduced over work hours to suit job. It is not advisabe to do same as in later life, due to deteriotation of relevant muscles combined with slowing of reactions (can't run to bathroom) etc., 800+ml voiding at a time usually overwhelms most available protections. Yes, diapers are made to contain up to 2000+ml, but not in 800ml blocks at a time. Also, diapers of that capacity are usually very thick and restrictive to motion - which can increase trip / fall hazard with the wearer. The combination is a complication that is best avoided.

3 hours ago, Kevin140 said:

...

When I met the urologist after 4 years of training, he identified, that I have a under avarege small bladder. This was the first time, when he said something like this. Since two years I let check my blood values and there are no abnormalities. 

That contradicts what you stated re the measurment of your bladder capacity ...

15 hours ago, Kevin140 said:

I am German, and we use to have half a liter beer glasses! Sometimes I peed in them (I know the chemicals in the dishwasher will do their thing), and I had to stop, because I have had to pee much more than the size of the glas, when I have a strong urge. Now, it is filled up half or a third, by the same urge!

... that calculates to a bladder capacity of 800ml.

The rest of my advice that I mentioned earlier was all based on that calculation, but your urologist has stated that you have a small bladder which s/he identifies as the reason that you need to void multiple times overnight.

If in fact that you DO have a small bladder -  due to training / shrinkage, and I have no reason to doubt you or contradict your urologist, then the 20-40ml daytime voiding may not be overflow, but instead a reflex response to training where your bladder signals a need to void with only 20-40ml content, where when you are asleep, this signal is not enough to wake you so you continue to fill the bladder until it reaches the true capacity, or shortly before it.

This identifies a different issue - you have trained your bladder to signal a need to void at 20-40ml, where it does that daytime reguardless of if you wear a diaper or not. This daytime behaviour is similar to what you did before you were toilet trained, so I would suspect that shortly you will start to do same overnight if you are not already doing it somewhat. I suspect, that although you didn't think that it is important, that overnight you do have some bladder leakage, and although you do not want night time issues / bed wetting, I think that the route is already set where you will end up bedwetting at the same frequency as you wet during the day. It will prob. start when you indulge in alcohol etc., but unless daytime control is regained, you are destined to end up in diapers overnight. After all, the body really doesn't care where the hands on a clock are!

[Kevin140]

1 hour ago, babykeiff said:

 

That contradicts what you stated re the measurment of your bladder capacity ...

... that calculates to a bladder capacity of 800ml.

 

your calculated amount 800 ml was 5 years ago, I said much more, I think it was more, when I remembering correct, I think 650 l, some more! OK

the small bladder was diagnosticed 4 years after, nearly one and a half year before now