How do you train your bladder to become overactive? The reverse seems to be happening to me.

[Hannah YMS]

I've been actively untraining since Nov 14, 2020. I'm approaching 11 months of nearly 24/7 and I haven't made as much progress as I had hoped.

One of the biggest "issues" I'm facing is when I first started untraining I had no problem going when I needed to but at about the 3 or 4 month mark I noticed that my bladder was becoming lazier. Or more pee shy. Or less relaxed, or something. I used to pee in short bursts frequently but now all I do is flood.

There are even times when I really have to pee but I stand there concentrating for 10 minutes trying to pee. It's like I'm losing connection with my bladder or something. Which is cool and all, not having bladder control, but I feel like I'm going to get to the point where my detrusor muscle won't contract and I'll need to intermittent cath 5 times a day, which is counter to what I want to achieve.

So I was thinking, does anyone know of a way to stimulate your bladder to become more overactive? I've tried massaging my bladder to doing rhythmic contractions but that technique has never worked for me. Coffee doesn't excite my bladder anymore, spicy food has never worked.

What do you all think? Any ideas?

[Little Cub Pants]

Well, it sounds to me like your bladder has some pretty strong muscles. Which is why it's very pee shy. This happened to me to buddy. What I would try is, whenever you need to go pee-pee go to the bathroom and stand in front of it. Make sure you're wearing a nice thick diaper and look down at the potty, wait for the urge to go pee-pee then your bladder will release it into the diapie. Keep doing this and your body will start to think it's normal and get in the habit of doing it. It's all about retraining your body to think differently. Do the same thing for poo-poo too!☺️???? Good luck buddy!??

[foreverdl]

43 minutes ago, BabySpiderBoy said:

Well, it sounds to me like your bladder has some pretty strong muscles. Which is why it's very pee shy. This happened to me to buddy. What I would try is, whenever you need to go pee-pee go to the bathroom and stand in front of it. Make sure you're wearing a nice thick diaper and look down at the potty, wait for the urge to go pee-pee then your bladder will release it into the diapie. Keep doing this and your body will start to think it's normal and get in the habit of doing it. It's all about retraining your body to think differently. Do the same thing for poo-poo too!☺️???? Good luck buddy!??

That's a good idea, I did get some help with mine with that, I have the same issues, Its almost like prostate is enlarged but according to the Doc's it ain't. Do you have any mind over matter ideas?? I am also very welcome to ideas. I have had daily dribbles off and on, for 10 yrs. But I will have many times it won't come out. And others I can't stop it when it starts, But I don't want it to stop unless I have just woken up with a full diaper and have to go change that's assume to have lost control, exciting and sometimes a little scary, That's the part I can't seem to get past the scare of a leak, I have done a lot to keep protected because my wife is not good with the pee of any kind. But it helps me sleep, and with my dribbles, and etc age I try to keep her happy , but hey if you don't have sex then you gotta have diapers for fun etc. Thanks for any advice . I have worn 24/7 for about 10 yrs but daytime I don't pee near as much as I would like to . 

[Enthusi]

Hmm.  For me it’s just been a natural progression. My bladder strength and capacity both seem to have diminished and so I have almost little to no warning when I’m about to wet and no ability to stop it. No idea how often I wet during a day. Maybe 10-20 times?   I don’t have a magic formula except I try not to fight it and I’ve gotten really good at dissociating the bladder pressure feeling from a desire to void.  When you feel bladder pressure tell yourself it’s just a bodily sensation and all it means is that sooner or later pee is going to start coming out. And then try to distract yourself.  (I do times tables).  So umm try that? ? 

Other than that maybe get a massage gun/wand (many uses!) and massage your entire pelvic area until you feel the muscles loosen and give out. 

Last but not least. This is my Hail Mary … maybe urinary retention is a good enough reason for a urologist to perform a sphincterotomy?  In this case it would be medically indicated as a treatment for neurogenic bladder… especially if you stress you would rather be incontinent then catheterize.  You may have to do some other explaining.  But it’s not a complete lost cause. 

 

[Clr224]

My experience was that the longer I stayed in diapers, the lazier my bladder became.  I would relax the sphincter muscles and the bladder would simply drain rather than actively contracting to expel the urine.  Now, my bladder releases small amounts of urine very frequently rather than filling to any significant capacity.  When I was first starting, I concentrated on keeping the urinary sphincter relaxed for increasing amounts of time after urinating.

[Enthusi]

2 minutes ago, Clr224 said:

Now, my bladder releases small amounts of urine very frequently rather than filling to any significant capacity.  When I was first starting, I concentrated on keeping the urinary sphincter relaxed for increasing amounts of time after urinating.

Yes I was writing my reply the exact same time as you.  I used to do timed relaxations using a repeat timer app. It took a long while but nowadays I can’t get my muscle to stay closed.  It’s like a switch was flipped from default clenched mode to default relaxed mode. 

[Little Cub Pants]

30 minutes ago, foreverdl said:

That's a good idea, I did get some help with mine with that, I have the same issues, Its almost like prostate is enlarged but according to the Doc's it ain't. Do you have any mind over matter ideas?? I am also very welcome to ideas. I have had daily dribbles off and on, for 10 yrs. But I will have many times it won't come out. And others I can't stop it when it starts, But I don't want it to stop unless I have just woken up with a full diaper and have to go change that's assume to have lost control, exciting and sometimes a little scary, That's the part I can't seem to get past the scare of a leak, I have done a lot to keep protected because my wife is not good with the pee of any kind. But it helps me sleep, and with my dribbles, and etc age I try to keep her happy , but hey if you don't have sex then you gotta have diapers for fun etc. Thanks for any advice . I have worn 24/7 for about 10 yrs but daytime I don't pee near as much as I would like to . 

Well, I have another idea for that buddy. It's going to sound a little weird. Make sure you have a good quality diaper on, like a BetterDry. Then when you have to go pee-pee purposely hold it until you really have to go. Then flood the diaper. Keep doing this and eventually the pee-pee stream won't be dribbles and it will be in large amounts more often until your body gets used to it. Then it will be a all the time thing buddy.?☺️??

[Kif]

I've started to run across this, around the same time too (3 months in).

I am not sure if this will help you, but this is what I've noticed so far...

• I've been increasingly leaking. I took a hard look at it and figured out it was because I was peeing more. Kali touched on this too, where you might go thinner for a while after your bladder adjusts to going frequently, and then for various reasons output increases and you go thick again. 
• I got into a habit of not noticing my bladder and I use a timer app, but I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have?
• I got into the habit of associating dribbling with constantly drinking water
• Due to flooding, my fear of leaking increased again

So, I've been trying a few things:

• Reducing my water intake (I've needed thicker diapers still, despite this btw) to reduce the association of dribbling to that unsustainable habit
• Going thicker in my diapering
• Re-focusing on voiding on a timer PLUS refocusing on trying to pee as soon as I notice I've stopped trying to pee
• Really trying to focus on going, even if I feel I need to force it...Though in my case, while counting to four on a rhythmic gentle pulsing of my abs is all I need I think in part because throughout most of my untraining so far I've been doing reverse kegal exercises + stretches everyday and I count to four doing that...so there is some association there, like when standing in front of running water

So far the past few days I've had some successes...But yeah, I'm keeping an eye on it too. Hopefully you find some of this helpful!

[CodHero24]

JonBear,

When your Bladder is Full and you can't pee,

Try lying down, relaxing your bladder, and Push your lower abdomen with your hands until you feel your diaper getting wet.

[foreverdl]

1 hour ago, Kif said:

I've started to run across this, around the same time too (3 months in).

I am not sure if this will help you, but this is what I've noticed so far...

• I've been increasingly leaking. I took a hard look at it and figured out it was because I was peeing more. Kali touched on this too, where you might go thinner for a while after your bladder adjusts to going frequently, and then for various reasons output increases and you go thick again. 
• I got into a habit of not noticing my bladder and I use a timer app, but I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have?
• I got into the habit of associating dribbling with constantly drinking water
• Due to flooding, my fear of leaking increased again

So, I've been trying a few things:

• Reducing my water intake (I've needed thicker diapers still, despite this btw) to reduce the association of dribbling to that unsustainable habit
• Going thicker in my diapering
• Re-focusing on voiding on a timer PLUS refocusing on trying to pee as soon as I notice I've stopped trying to pee
• Really trying to focus on going, even if I feel I need to force it...Though in my case, while counting to four on a rhythmic gentle pulsing of my abs is all I need I think in part because throughout most of my untraining so far I've been doing reverse kegal exercises + stretches everyday and I count to four doing that...so there is some association there, like when standing in front of running water

So far the past few days I've had some successes...But yeah, I'm keeping an eye on it too. Hopefully you find some of this helpful!

Thanks I will be trying some of theses ideas, I have heard about the reverse Kekals,, is there any place where I can find the directions for this?

13 hours ago, BabySpiderBoy said:

Well, I have another idea for that buddy. It's going to sound a little weird. Make sure you have a good quality diaper on, like a BetterDry. Then when you have to go pee-pee purposely hold it until you really have to go. Then flood the diaper. Keep doing this and eventually the pee-pee stream won't be dribbles and it will be in large amounts more often until your body gets used to it. Then it will be a all the time thing buddy.?☺️??

Thanks I will be trying this, it sounds like it will be fun to try, having a thick diaper on and making it Flood???

1 hour ago, CodHero24 said:

JonBear,

When your Bladder is Full and you can't pee,

Try lying down, relaxing your bladder, and Push your lower abdomen with your hands until you feel your diaper getting wet.

The laying down and relax part, I have done, and it works, I do need to be able to pee while in my recliner, As I spend a lot of time in it. I will try it in my recliner also.

[Kif]

10 minutes ago, foreverdl said:

Thanks I will be trying some of theses ideas, I have heard about the reverse Kekals,, is there any place where I can find the directions for this?

Here ya' go! https://www.nafc.org/bhealth-blog/how-to-relax-your-pelvic-floor

I'm doing these at least every morning, and most evenings (harder to remember since the end of my workday isn't as routine)

Not sure if it really 'stretches' my muscles down there, but it does challenge me to try peeing while in a stressful position (child's pose with wide open legs really gets me). And it's good to have a mental check-in with sensation down there, remember how to pee haha. Plus, as I mentioned, the counting while breathing isn't a thing they mentioned but it unwittingly ended up being helpful.

[Kif]

Hmm, one thing I'm wondering @jonbearab and @Enthusi, what really is 'frequent' here and what is really a 'flood' in our case?

Enthusi, you mentioned an estimate of 10-20 times per day. 

But if we consider going every 15-30 minutes, over a 12 hour day, wouldn't that be closer to 24-48 voids per day? I personally lean towards max every 15 minutes, probably closer to every 5 minutes (my alarm repeats every 5 minutes) when I'm in the right mindspace. When not in the right mindspace, it's closer to once every 30 minutes to an hour. 

While I say that I flood too...I sometimes wonder if it's diminished sensation because even then it's at least once per hour and more commonly every 30 minutes. Or, a larger amount after some kind of activity (biking, walking, etc). And while it feels like a lot it feels like more when the nappy is already wet so there's more runoff vs soak-in...

Anyway, point is, I'm curious if a 'flood' really is as much pee as we think it is? Maybe we perceive it as a longer void, but due to weaker flow it's not as much pee as we think it is? 

All I can say for-sure, for me, is that when I wake up dry but with a full bladder THAT is for-sure a flood volume-wise because my mostly-dry nappy becomes soaked.

[Hannah YMS]

1 hour ago, Kif said:

Hmm, one thing I'm wondering @jonbearab and @Enthusi, what really is 'frequent' here and what is really a 'flood' in our case?

Enthusi, you mentioned an estimate of 10-20 times per day. 

But if we consider going every 15-30 minutes, over a 12 hour day, wouldn't that be closer to 24-48 voids per day? I personally lean towards max every 15 minutes, probably closer to every 5 minutes (my alarm repeats every 5 minutes) when I'm in the right mindspace. When not in the right mindspace, it's closer to once every 30 minutes to an hour. 

While I say that I flood too...I sometimes wonder if it's diminished sensation because even then it's at least once per hour and more commonly every 30 minutes. Or, a larger amount after some kind of activity (biking, walking, etc). And while it feels like a lot it feels like more when the nappy is already wet so there's more runoff vs soak-in...

Anyway, point is, I'm curious if a 'flood' really is as much pee as we think it is? Maybe we perceive it as a longer void, but due to weaker flow it's not as much pee as we think it is? 

All I can say for-sure, for me, is that when I wake up dry but with a full bladder THAT is for-sure a flood volume-wise because my mostly-dry nappy becomes soaked.

Well, for me, there are times when I can void every 10-15 minutes. I'd consider that to be frequent, but more often than not my floods are from a full bladder that has had the sensation of needing to go, but won't on demand. That's not to say it doesn't happen tho. 

It's true that I have a reduced and weaker stream. Sometimes I can void, weakly, for 30 seconds or more. I'd like to end up voiding, weakly, for 10 seconds or less, frequently.

Flood in my case means emptying a full bladder. Y'know, when you're standing there fully emptying a full bladder, and the front of your diaper is wet, to be sure, but the result being a pool of pee at the seat of your diaper and if you sit down any other way than butt forward and head back, there's sure to be a leak (and even then...). Leaking doesn't bother me as much as I always wear good plastic pants, but I'd still like to drip and dribble all day thus extending the range of my diaper. 

17 hours ago, BabySpiderBoy said:

Well, it sounds to me like your bladder has some pretty strong muscles. Which is why it's very pee shy. This happened to me to buddy. What I would try is, whenever you need to go pee-pee go to the bathroom and stand in front of it. Make sure you're wearing a nice thick diaper and look down at the potty, wait for the urge to go pee-pee then your bladder will release it into the diapie. Keep doing this and your body will start to think it's normal and get in the habit of doing it. It's all about retraining your body to think differently. Do the same thing for poo-poo too!☺️???? Good luck buddy!??

I think it's less about strong muscles and more about the inability to get my bladder to contract resulting in urination. To be fair, I eventually do void, but I'd like it to be more automatic and reflexive than something I have to take 10 minutes out of my day to do each time.

16 hours ago, foreverdl said:

I have the same issues, Its almost like prostate is enlarged but according to the Doc's it ain't. Do you have any mind over matter ideas??

Exactly. 

16 hours ago, Enthusi said:

My bladder strength and capacity both seem to have diminished and so I have almost little to no warning when I’m about to wet and no ability to stop it. No idea how often I wet during a day. Maybe 10-20 times?

This. This is what I want. You're so lucky! 

16 hours ago, Enthusi said:

I don’t have a magic formula except I try not to fight it and I’ve gotten really good at dissociating the bladder pressure feeling from a desire to void.  When you feel bladder pressure tell yourself it’s just a bodily sensation and all it means is that sooner or later pee is going to start coming out. And then try to distract yourself.  (I do times tables).  So umm try that? ? 

This has been one of the hardest things for me to do. Maybe I'm just hyperaware, but even the slightest urgency or feeling of a full bladder has me thinking about it all the time. It's not like I want to focus on it, it's that I can't stop. Like a mosquito on your face sucking out blood. I'm so frustrated. 

16 hours ago, Enthusi said:

Other than that maybe get a massage gun/wand (many uses!) and massage your entire pelvic area until you feel the muscles loosen and give out.

I tried this last night with my wand and it didn't work. All I got afterwards was a funny feeling tummy. 

16 hours ago, Enthusi said:

Last but not least. This is my Hail Mary … maybe urinary retention is a good enough reason for a urologist to perform a sphincterotomy?

Are you saying you have urinary retention and have had a sphincterotomy? I've been dreaming about getting a sphincterotomy for years but I am still able to void (completely, I think...) so I've never thought a urologist would even diagnose me let alone give the surgery. 

16 hours ago, Clr224 said:

My experience was that the longer I stayed in diapers, the lazier my bladder became.  I would relax the sphincter muscles and the bladder would simply drain rather than actively contracting to expel the urine.  Now, my bladder releases small amounts of urine very frequently rather than filling to any significant capacity.  When I was first starting, I concentrated on keeping the urinary sphincter relaxed for increasing amounts of time after urinating.

I wouldn't mind a result like this. This sounds like a form of overflow incontinence. 

[Hannah YMS]

16 hours ago, BabySpiderBoy said:

Well, I have another idea for that buddy. It's going to sound a little weird. Make sure you have a good quality diaper on, like a BetterDry. Then when you have to go pee-pee purposely hold it until you really have to go. Then flood the diaper. Keep doing this and eventually the pee-pee stream won't be dribbles and it will be in large amounts more often until your body gets used to it. Then it will be a all the time thing buddy.?☺️??

This is definitely one idea, I might try this. I haven't yet because it's counter to what I've beenbdoing for 11 months. But maybe something like this would work? 

4 hours ago, Kif said:

I've started to run across this, around the same time too (3 months in).

I am not sure if this will help you, but this is what I've noticed so far...

• I've been increasingly leaking. I took a hard look at it and figured out it was because I was peeing more. Kali touched on this too, where you might go thinner for a while after your bladder adjusts to going frequently, and then for various reasons output increases and you go thick again. 
• I got into a habit of not noticing my bladder and I use a timer app, but I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have?
• I got into the habit of associating dribbling with constantly drinking water
• Due to flooding, my fear of leaking increased again

So, I've been trying a few things:

• Reducing my water intake (I've needed thicker diapers still, despite this btw) to reduce the association of dribbling to that unsustainable habit
• Going thicker in my diapering
• Re-focusing on voiding on a timer PLUS refocusing on trying to pee as soon as I notice I've stopped trying to pee
• Really trying to focus on going, even if I feel I need to force it...Though in my case, while counting to four on a rhythmic gentle pulsing of my abs is all I need I think in part because throughout most of my untraining so far I've been doing reverse kegal exercises + stretches everyday and I count to four doing that...so there is some association there, like when standing in front of running water

So far the past few days I've had some successes...But yeah, I'm keeping an eye on it too. Hopefully you find some of this helpful!

I haven't tried a void timer yet, thanks for the suggestion. I don't feel I need to increase or decrease fluid intake (I'm consuming some sort of liquid nearly all day every day). I already wear good long range diapers (BetterDry, etc) and I always wear plastic pants so I never really concern myself with leaks even tho they happen nearly every day.

Thanks for the link on relaxing your pelvic floor--this looks promising and I think I'll give this a shot. 

[Little Cub Pants]

2 minutes ago, jonbearab said:

This is definitely one idea, I might try this. I haven't yet because it's counter to what I've beenbdoing for 11 months. But maybe something like this would work? 

I'm glad buddy! But to tell you the truth, I don't really have a lot of ideas other than that really.?

[Hannah YMS]

4 hours ago, CodHero24 said:

JonBear,

When your Bladder is Full and you can't pee,

Try lying down, relaxing your bladder, and Push your lower abdomen with your hands until you feel your diaper getting wet.

Cool, I'll give this a shot. Thanks! 

2 minutes ago, BabySpiderBoy said:

I'm glad buddy! But to tell you the truth, I don't really have a lot of ideas other than that really.?

No worries, thanks for the suggestions tho! 

[Little Cub Pants]

4 minutes ago, jonbearab said:

Cool, I'll give this a shot. Thanks! 

No worries, thanks for the suggestions tho! 

You're welcome buddy!?

[Enthusi]

On 10/9/2021 at 4:25 PM, jonbearab said:

Are you saying you have urinary retention and have had a sphincterotomy?

Sadly No.  I would LOVE to have a sphincterotomy. I would sign any paper you put in front of me stating that the psychological benefit of doing it would outweigh any physical downsides and I am 100 percent aware of the risks and won’t hold the urologist responsible if something goes wrong. And I would even offer to pay cash if it’s not covered.  But even then it would be near impossible to find a urologist willing to do it. 
 

All I was saying is that if I had urinary retention and it was severe, I would ask a urologist to perform the procedure because in that case it would be therapeutic and a better alternative to catheterizing for me. 

[Hannah YMS]

3 hours ago, Enthusi said:

Sadly No.  I would LOVE to have a sphincterotomy. I would sign any paper you put in front of me stating that the psychological benefit of doing it would outweigh any physical downsides and I am 100 percent aware of the risks and won’t hold the urologist responsible if something goes wrong. And I would even offer to pay cash if it’s not covered.  But even then it would be near impossible to find a urologist willing to do it. 
 

All I was saying is that if I had urinary retention and it was severe, I would ask a urologist to perform the procedure because in that case it would be therapeutic and a better alternative to catheterizing for me. 

I 110% agree with you on all accounts! Maybe developing bladder retention may not be such a bad idea... Not as ideal as I'm going for, but it's an open option I may be able to consider down the road. ?

[Enthusi]

4 hours ago, jonbearab said:

I 110% agree with you on all accounts! Maybe developing bladder retention may not be such a bad idea... Not as ideal as I'm going for, but it's an open option I may be able to consider down the road. ?

Unfortunately even then it may be hard to get a doc to agree to the procedure.  The problem as I understand it is if they cut just a little bit then there’s a chance of scar tissue forming which will make retention worse. Removing the entire sphincter would alleviate that problem but that is risky because of other nerves in the area and you still have the internal sphincter causing retention. But still, one can dream…

[Hannah YMS]

4 hours ago, Enthusi said:

Unfortunately even then it may be hard to get a doc to agree to the procedure.  The problem as I understand it is if they cut just a little bit then there’s a chance of scar tissue forming which will make retention worse. Removing the entire sphincter would alleviate that problem but that is risky because of other nerves in the area and you still have the internal sphincter causing retention. But still, one can dream…

If I was to that point, I'd make the case the the uro should cut both sphincters and to do what he could to make me totally UI. I wouldn't even care about FI at this point. Anything just so I don't have to do any form of regular catheterization. I mean, I really enjoy my leaky diapers. Amirite? 

[Hannah YMS]

I found this ask/reply from Kali on tumblr. This pretty much describes what's going on and how I think things will progress. Just showing you all for posterity.

https://kali-is-an-abdl.tumblr.com/post/664912561370759168/i-have-been-247-for-3-years-last-time-i-used-a

Edit: tagging @Kaliborio so she knows her post has contributed and helped.

[Pete671]

Stop actively trying to untrain, just try and keep busy and let nature take it's course imho,,,

When your body gets used to peeing whenever it likes, it will do so, I started wearing due to bladder anxiety issues mainly, I find I don't get an urge to pee nearly as often, and with a nappy on I often find myself with a strong urge to pee that comes on quickly, I find it difficult to stop leaking so I just let it flow,,,

[Hannah YMS]

6 hours ago, Pete671 said:

Stop actively trying to untrain, just try and keep busy and let nature take it's course imho,,,

When your body gets used to peeing whenever it likes, it will do so, I started wearing due to bladder anxiety issues mainly, I find I don't get an urge to pee nearly as often, and with a nappy on I often find myself with a strong urge to pee that comes on quickly, I find it difficult to stop leaking so I just let it flow,,,

I actually have a few times during this process. See, I'd get "lazy" and stop thinking about it (because I'm so used to spending 18/7 in diapers such that during the day I was quite used to not thinking about it). But a few months of that didn't show any progress so I went back to trying to focus on it again. I can't seem to win here... Does anyone understand this phenomenon?

[Little Cub Pants]

11 hours ago, Pete671 said:

Stop actively trying to untrain, just try and keep busy and let nature take it's course imho,,,

When your body gets used to peeing whenever it likes, it will do so, I started wearing due to bladder anxiety issues mainly, I find I don't get an urge to pee nearly as often, and with a nappy on I often find myself with a strong urge to pee that comes on quickly, I find it difficult to stop leaking so I just let it flow,,,

That's pretty smart buddy!?????❤️