Unintended consequences

[Wet Knight]

Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East?

[id0ntknow]

My brain hurts now.

[Elfy]

I can't even tell if you are just trying to start an argument or not.

[kevindhca]

I don't know if that was unintended or not.

The US sells a lot of weapons. Conflict is good for business, especially when it's no where near you.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Let me make it simple: We crush ISIS, Iran wins; we crush Iran, ISIS wins

Edited September 5, 2015 by Christine Daryleanne
simplification

[Baby Brian]

Well said wet knight, I actually do get what you were saying. The point isn't just what enemies we need to fight (or support fighting against), it's also what enemies we can live with.

[Diapered Jason]

I think the important thing to keep in mind is how much

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

An army is a function of State, No State, No army. The best they could be hoped to do would be a function of the4 US and therefore collaborators with an invader. Do you really think that Sunni would be willing to be ruled by a Shi'ite hierarchy? Iraq was a pressure vessel. Hussein understood that. Also Bush I understood that, which is why he did not "finish the job" in 1991

Now the only question is how do we exit. We have been at war for 14 years with no win in sight in Afghanistan. What do you think a state of perma-war will do to the American people, State and economy? We have already lost in Afghanistan. If that were not the case, we would be rooting out the Taliban and NOT trying to negotiate with them. The only negotioation

Edited September 5, 2015 by Christine Daryleanne
correction

[Summertime]

Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East?

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

I don't know about Tony Blair but in the case of Bush II it was that he chose not to perform due diligence rather than an overt lie (He was following the lead of a holdover from the Clinton admin: George Tenant) More like "pleading the Sgt Schultz Amendment: I see nothing, I know nothing and I want to know nothing". He probably thought it would be over in a year and we could replace the regime with something more to our liking (like a Shi'ite' regime that would lean towoard its co-religionist brethren in Iran?! What: Me Worry?) Then to make it worse, having broken it, he owned it. so he was now doing "nation building" the same thing that the GOP had raked the Clinton Admin over the coals for. So, they took out a secular tyranny to create what? and that answer was easily predictable before the first bomb fell or the first bomber left its base. Worse still, because of our run-in with Iran in the 1980's we had a kind of alliance with the Sunni. Now where do you think we are with the Sunni Arab majority after having delivered Baghdad into Persian hands? On the Shi'ite list

[Summertime]

I don't know about Tony Blair but in the case of Bush II it was that he chose not to perform due diligence rather than an overt lie (He was following the lead of a holdover from the Clinton admin: George Tenant) More like "pleading the Sgt Schultz Amendment: I see nothing, I know nothing and I want to know nothing". He probably thought it would be over in a year and we could replace the regime with something more to our liking (like a Shi'ite' regime that would lean towoard its co-religionist brethren in Iran?! What: Me Worry?) Then to make it worse, having broken it, he owned it. so he was now doing "nation building" the same thing that the GOP had raked the Clinton Admin over the coals for. So, they took out a secular tyranny to create what? and that answer was easily predictable before the first bomb fell or the first bomber left its base. Worse still, because of our run-in with Iran in the 1980's we had a kind of alliance with the Sunni. Now where do you think we are with the Sunni Arab majority after having delivered Baghdad into Persian hands? On the Shi'ite list

Blair sold the invasion to parliament and the public by telling us that intelligence showed that Iraq had WMD which was shown to be a lie, so it wasn't a mistake but a lie to support Bush

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

What it had was old stuff that was no longer any good

In the 3rd quarter of '02, Scott Ritter USMC, a member of UNSCOM under Richard Butler told Jim Bohannon outright that the WMD that had by there had been de-activated by UNDCOM in the 1990's and why the war the Bush was trying to sell was a fool's errand on all fronts

As ot a lie, I do not know if it was all that as much as being deluded. There certainly was some false material being used as documentation. But it may have been more like the N-ray fiasco of the very early 20th

Edited September 5, 2015 by Christine Daryleanne
correction

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East?

Edited September 5, 2015 by Christine Daryleanne
fix

[Diapered Jason]

An army is a function of State, No State, No army. The best they could be hoped to do would be a function of the4 US and therefore collaborators with an invader. Do you really think that Sunni would be willing to be ruled by a Shi'ite hierarchy? Iraq was a pressure vessel. Hussein understood that. Also Bush I understood that, which is why he did not "finish the job" in 1991

Now the only question is how do we exit. We have been at war for 14 years with no win in sight in Afghanistan. What do you think a state of perma-war will do to the American people, State and economy? We have already lost in Afghanistan. If that were not the case, we would be rooting out the Taliban and NOT trying to negotiate with them. The only negotioation

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Once lead is flying, it becomes win or lose. Especially since the Taliban were backing Al Qauda, shielding Bin Laden and were a brutal theocracy, all of which means are playing for keeps. There is no win-win. They want all non-Muslims dead or converted. So you blow them out or they blow you out. If you doubt me, and I hope you do, look at how they destroyed so many of the pre-Muslim artifacts and statuary, how they banned TV and radio and the brutal torture about which they bragged. They also believe that it is fine to practice deception with infidels so you have two things: All or nothing and willingness to lie to get their ends. How do you negotiate with that; especially when they saw what happened in Vietnam? You have two alternatives; crack their skull or have them crack yours. Now once you let up on the pedal they know you are not serious and that you can be had and that you have let up on the pedal, means you are not serious; you do not mean what you say. Once you are in a shooting war and you do not finish the job that you started, defeat is certain. and all they need to win is for us to go home and leave them standing. Just think "We beat the Great Satan to his knees and sent him home; He is gone and we are still here". It is like the alien in INDEPENDENCE DAY when the US President or someone said "what do you want us

Edited September 7, 2015 by Christine Daryleanne
correction

[Diapered Jason]

Once lead is flying, it becomes win or lose. Especially since the Taliban were backing Al Qauda, shielding Bin Laden and were a brutal theocracy, all of which means are playing for keeps. There is no win-win. They want all non-Muslims dead or converted. So you blow them out or they blow you out. If you doubt me, and I hope you do, look at how they destroyed so many of the pre-Muslim artifacts and statuary, how they banned TV and radio and the brutal torture about which they bragged. They also believe that it is fine to practice deception with infidels so you have two things: All or nothing and willingness to lie to get their ends. How do you negotiate with that; especially when they saw what happened in Vietnam? You have two alternatives; crack their skull or have them crack yours. Now once you let up on the pedal they know you are not serious and that you can be had and that you have let up on the pedal, means you are not serious; you do not mean what you say. Once you are in a shooting war and you do not finish the job that you started, defeat is certain. and all they need to win is for us to go home and leave them standing. Just think "We beat the Great Satan to his knees and sent him home; He is gone and we are still here". It is like the alien in INDEPENDENCE DAY when the US President or someone said "what do you want us

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

The Taliban forbade the education of girls and blew up a girls' school within the last two or so years. They destroyed some ancient statues of Buddhist origin. they are Islamic theocrats that supported, and in open alliance with, Al Qaeda and tried to shield Bin Laden when we asked them to turn him over; the Muhammed Omar was in both groups. They used torture on a routine basis. Indeed some 17 years ago one of the torturers did an interview discribing what he did. My point about the Islamic State is if they see us get rolled they'll know they can do it to.

Bin Laden in 200--3 was operating out of Torabora in Afghanistan

Al Qaeda in Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda but were cashing in on the name. Bin Laden shunned them. Hussein wanted nothing to do with any Islamist groups since he ran a secular governmdnt and was decleared an Apostate and under a death sentence by the Islamist

[Wet Knight]

I can't even tell if you are just trying to start an argument or not.

Oh you tease !; I'm sure that you recognised it as a paradox, but just weren't sure how to spell it.

[Baby Brian]

http://news.yahoo.com/u-rethinks-strategy-battling-islamic-state-syria-nyt-162750333.html

An interesting read for you two. While I believe it won't do us much good arguing on how we got to where we are (as this is the state of war we are in like it or not), I do believe this article helps highlight a better way to eventually end the war with the IS- in part by aligning our selves with and helping the enemy we can live with.

[Diapered Jason]

I'm glad the US is finally starting to rethink it's bombing campaign. The biggest news that just came in was Turkey decided to start an offensive against the Kurds(the good rebels) in Syria. I would say Turkey is making a real mess of things. Personally, I dislike Turkey's government, so I would support the Kurdish forces over Turkey. The main problem here is the Kurds have been the only effective fighting force against the Islamic State, so it seems to me like Turkey almost wants the Islamic State to succeed. This almost certainly means Turkey will have to be dealt with in some way.

Nevertheless, the way we got into this mess is just as important as how we will get out. If we don't understand what has happened, especially the public at large, then we will continue using the policies that have gotten us here in the first place.

[Elfy]

It is almost like going into somewhere, destabalising the country and creating a power vacuum was a bad idea... Right now there is no right thing to do, this is all just consequences of earlier actions.

You go in to kill all it does is create more extremists in the future, and/or it creates vacuums for of power that people will try to fill leading to more war. Literally everything that is happening now is a consequence of Blair and Bush. The more people get involved now the worse it will become.

My favourite part is the people here complaining about Syrian refugees... We helped create a hellhole and then complain when people are desperate to leave it.

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And Wet Knight, it isn't a paradox it is just evidence that the World isn't black and white. There are rarely good guys and bad guys, just a bunch of people all with their own motives.

[BBoy]

This discussion is far to simplistic. The fact is Middle East culture, society and politics are different than in the west. I saw this first hand while living in China. The way the Chinese perceive the world around them (on an individual level) makes their decision making on a cultural and political level much different. The same can be said for the Middle East. We are trying to place concrete borders and governments institutions upon a society that does not see them the same way. The culture is based on tribal connections and therefore their alliances and their diplomacy is going to be different.