Frustrated About Progress

[d_drew12]

First, obviously we can't hibernate but we can be in comas. Again, keep in mind muscles essentially being what they are....muscles, is proving my theory that an unused bladder muscle doesn't necessarily leave you incontinent. Of course no example will ever be 100% the same. If you read up on comas, people can and do regain nearly all function through rehab. Understand though, a person in a coma isn't really ever going to be a healthy person who fell asleep and woke up five years later. It's someone with an injury or traumatic event that put them in the coma so coming out 100% even after rehab is really often due to a physical injury of some kind. Point being, coma patients are either cathed or diapered for their time under. They can regain control as all the parts are still their as long as nothing's been damaged from why they went in the coma to begin with. Guess what I'm trying to prove is, in order for these people to retrain their bladders, there must still be some form of a signal they're getting in order to start the process otherwise it'd be impossible and just a guess as to when they needed to go. You may through your untraining, just tell yourself, it's okay, but you are still feeling something.

Second, yup, I use caths too. Have had them in for extended periods...days... I can't feel the urine coming out because it is traveling through an internal tube. I also can't feel my bladder filling, because it doesn't. I cant feel it exit my body and spill into a diaper because the end of the tube is pointing into the diaper. I can attest to shifting my body while cathed and suddenly the end of the cath gushes a warm stream of urine against my skin so I know I went. Guarantee if that tube wasn't up there and I was truly medically incontinent, I'd still be able to feel that spurt of urine travel out of me. Inserting a foreign object into your urethra and then into your bladder and saying it's anywhere close to as similar as incontinence is soooooo false.

The hat comparison or again, any comparison is never 100% accurate because, you are always comparing two different thing so unless you compare the same thing, then it'd be the same. People get so hung up on this stuff. Anyway, I still think the comparison works to prove a point. The point is, you don't feel the hat after you've been wearing it for a while. This doesn't mean your head went numb. It just means you blocked that feeling from your mind. If you shift your hat though, even a bit, you'll feel it and think about it for that brief moment, then forget about it again. Likewise, as your bladder begins to fill with urine, it'll signal your brain. You still need to make a decision. When you execute that decision, like releasing your urine right away, you in effect still had control, you used your bladder muscles, and you will for that brief moment feel urine pass down your urethra and exit as there are nerve endings all through that area. I'd expect you'd know that since you use caths and there are plenty of not so good feeling while inserting and removing them as well as while they're in at times especially at the start.

I guess you could try ignoring the feeling of urine passing but I don't know, haven't been able to achieve that. Would be curious to hear from true incontinent individuals on that.

At the end of the day though, getting back to the op, I'm there with ya bud. I'm not sure it's possible to really lose control over wishfully thinking more or less as that's what it amounts to in my opinion. It seems as though you have to tell yourself to still relieve ones self but make it something you put as little thought into as something like walking, where you aren't constantly racking your brain telling it left, right, left, right, but rather you just...walk. Biggest obstacle is your body wants to hold its urine. That's how it's designed. Even infants at day one are holding urine. They aren't just a dripping faucet but like you, their bladder fills and then they empty it. Potty training just teaches a child to recognize the full bladder signal and then what to do with it. Essentially, you'd be trying to reverse this but how to get rid of a built in signal??? I don't know?? Hasn't worked for me either and not sure if others are really ever losing the signal unless you never allow yourself to get to the full signal part and go a hundred times a day, but what about at night? You can't intentionally go 100 times and sleep. Plus, "going" means you're still using those muscles. I don't know, I don't get it either.

[DavidMW]

When I do the "keep it relaxed" thing, you're right in that I can't do it 24/7, and especially at first it takes a lot of concentration and making active decisions re what to do in response to the signals my filling bladder sends out.

[Dill_Pickle]

I'll throw in a recent training experience...I am now a CPAP user, and, during the first 60 or so days, with a full face mask.

[Dill_Pickle]

Oh, D_Drew:

[Bettypooh]

There is one more thing this takes- and it is likely what is happening here- and that is an ability to find and change things mental which are holding you back If you have a strong dislike for being in a wet bed, you will not be bedwetting. If you have a deep fear of possible humiliation from wet pants, yo will not be able to lose daytime control. Stress can have an adverse affect here as well. This is a package deal, you take it all or you get none, bad things included So you have to discover if you're seeing any of this as bad and change it, or find something you see as good to overcome it's negative influence on you. A good way to overcome fears is to experience them in a controlled manner. I was deathly afraid of public leaks, yet I knew that they were almost certain to happen. After experiencing this a few times completely unwanted and unexpected, I discovered that it isn't as big a problem as I thought it would be for me YMMV. I also feared discovery, which these leakage incidents had to have caused along with my pants getting torn badly once in the presence of someone who knew me I had to learn that these are non-events in my life through experience, similar to having ketchup from a hamburger drip all over you when you cannot change clothes and you must go on like that- It's not really a big deal While I am not seeking incontinence full-time, overcoming these mental roadblocks has allowed me to be able to pee freely almost without thought or knowledge when I want to with a little time to let it set in, and that's halfway there What inhibits each of us will be different so the thing to do is to take a deep honest look inside to find what the inhibitors are for you. Once you do that then it's just finding your way past them

[Guest fakename7]

i think you're right, Bettypooh.

[Bettypooh]

Based on my discussions with the (very knowledgeable) Doctor I mentioned, we're stuck with the Vasopressin issue

[Guest fakename7]

Thanks, BettyPooh, for your confidence!

[mahleedl]

Pup, on the question of bowel incontinence being required for the success of the 12mo program: I don't think so, but I think that might vary by person, and more specifically, with individual bowel habits...

[d_drew12]

Oh, D_Drew:

[DavidMW]

Until they start reporting autopsy results for folks who've claimed 12-month program success, whether and how much atrophy may occur is certainly debatable.

[DavidMW]

I've got my regular bedding - nice duvet and a quilt that my mom made.

[Creepymouse]

I guess it does come down to definition. I've always considered the definition of (bowel/bladder) incontinence is the inability to void in the socially acceptable way. Whether that means the bladder itself behaves badly, or the mind/body connection, or just the mental training it takes to diaper train oneself, or if a person were never toilet trained nor informed what the 'socially acceptable' method for disposing of one's waste was.

[Guest fakename7]

i agree with Creepymouse.

[Baby Brian]

Just to clarify, Merriam Webster's expanded definition

[whisko]

(has anybody else noticed that this is officially the f.a.p. thread? ;-) )

[Blefyr]

How long before the bladder and muscles begin showing sign og OAB and weakness?

Although I know it differs from person to person..

I've only one week in wearing 24/7, however it's already natural for me to go in my diaper....try and relax my pelvic muscles all the time so my pee just flows, when the urge hit's me...

[mahleedl]

I'd love to as a urologist that question, lol, but I don't think that's gonna happen.

When I was hitting the gym hard, I would come back from 1-2 week vacations and lift the same weight I had when I left. On a couple occasions, I had injuries sideline me for a month or more, and I'd still be back at full within a week.

It's only when I've been out of the gym for extended periods, ie 6mo or more that I really lost a meaningful amount of muscle mass.

I suspect the bladder and sphincter muscles are similar and that's why the author titled it a 12mo program.

Since you're relying on atrophy, a lot depends on how fast you become able to stay relaxed. A lot also depends on how fast you begin true night wetting, as your muscles will get their workout while you sleep until that happens.

MDL

[DavidMW]

I'm good at getting into the keep things relaxed state, and over a 30-day diapered run this past winter I started having surprise wettings in the daytime and a half dozen sleep wettings at night. After stopping with the diapers, I didn't notice any difference in my ability to hold or how much I could hold. But I did have to remind myself to clench a lot, especially for the first couple weeks out of the diapers. So I believe that - at least in my case - after a month it was really a lot more about conditioning/retraining than anything to do with atrophy.

In addition to the nighttime workout mahleedl noted, in a recent discussion related to this another poster noted that there are other activities that can reinforce the muscles that you're trying to keep relaxed for wetting purposes. I suspect that whatever tradeoff there is between conditioning vs. atrophy, it would vary widely among individuals, both because we behave differently and because our bodies are different.

[MOLEABE]

Your Mom and ad did not potty train you in 12 months it tick them several years of you looking eke S/He has got it only to have you wet the bed or your pants and them having to re

[babykeiff]

pupcerberus is finding it difficult to loose bladder and bowel control, and the reason is a very simple one. He is too much focused on it. Think of it this way,

[mahleedl]

I suggested that to attain this, one choses a group of specific times to change ones diaper reguardless the state of same. This has to be a autonomic process just like breathing. Your mind will learn that the diaper is changed at this time. Also it will learn that no matter what it puts into the diaper will never be questioned. Thus, voiding will revert to become an autonomic process as your mind discovers that it is better not to retain bowels and bladder.

[Blefyr]

hmm although only approx two weeks in the 24/7 - I still have problems with the relaxing thing, I still get the urge to pee, and then just pee....other times, I just stand still and fokus, even that I at the moment don't need to pee..then I can feel an urge coming and I try relax...maybe after a couple of months I'll learn / get the habit of just letting go without feeling any sensation in the lower regions..

Usually I think I'm clinching and not even are aware of it...then I try relax.

[babykeiff]

I think I like that idea, actually.

[Inconito]

In regard to the 12 month program...my two cent's.

I believe it's about three things which are done in parallel it’s mentally and physically

1. Then Mental thing – consider yourself to be incontinent i.e. you don’t have a choice, but have to let go at the slightest signal (feeling) i.e. turning things into habits.

The Mental thing won’t on itself make you anywhere close to incontinent; incontinence is not mentally, but more physically. But it will twist your brain eventually.

The physically issue, this is where the training comes into place.

Your re-training your bladder to:

1. Being able to hold less fluid (this one takes months) because the nights will revert the progress your doing throughout the day. More of this later.
2. Void at the slightest signal / feeling.
3. Stay relaxed in order to gradually reduce your pelvic muscles to work against your will.

Eventually your bladders capacity should be reduced and it’s ability to hold urine should be decreased. In my opinion voluntary incontinence is a long road whereas the first step is to develop OAB, then urge incontinence a direct follower of OAB, and then you can start working on stress incontinence later…