Warning: Do Not Click If You Have Religious Views You Do Not Want Challenged

[KittenAB]

I warned you, so no complaining about "hate speech," this is a factual video discussing a shift in the paradigms of US culture.

So here's my take, being a hopeful atheist, I hope there's something after life because life sucked and I don't want it to just end, I have started liking this Youtuber's discussion on science. He has many videos discussing topics of scientific studies, most of which I watch purely out of fascination. But his take on the movement away from religion in the US seems a bit optimistic to me. I still see a huge resistence to the notion that one may be wrong, so much that people are having a difficult time releasing their preconceived notions of what constitutes as morality.

My point of contention is that adults are converting still, though that conversion is slowing, it's still happening. So is there a chance that we will see a complete escape from superstition and closed mindedness in the US or is this a bit too optimistic? Is religion too ingrained into our psychies that it will take hundreds of years, or perhaps a world wide catastrophe before people see the value of free and intelligent thinking?

Though that was not his point, I'm posing that specific question based on what he has observed. A slightly related question, should we protect children from the brainwashing of the religious zealots, even for christianity?

[wetman]

...

related question, should we protect children from the brainwashing of the religious zealots, even for christianity?

I think we should teach our children to make up their own mind about the world, have their own opinions and don't believe something just because its written down somewhere.

From my point of view the only religious doctrine that makes sense is the Discordian Pentabarf.

[Diapered Jason]

Entertaining video, especially with the part from Religulous.

As to how many people are becoming atheists or agnostic, there are two possibilities I think. The first possibility is what you said Kitten, that god is the reason for the poor economy and you should return to your church. The second possibility is it may actually be quickening. I have noticed in the media, people like Rick Santorum are very popular in select groups and this may be a result of the Churches losing people to atheism. What I am thinking is the more they lose, the louder they become. This show of staunch beliefs in the holy bible may be a desperate attempt to save their church. What they say has no effect on me, but it may resonant with someone who has gone to Sunday school who may have left the church. Of course, we also have to factor in how the Churches protect pedophiles and how they react to social issues (Liberal Christians do exist). In addition, there is sometimes a religious dependency, sort of like an addiction. There are people out there who will go absolutely nuts if they thought they were not working to get into heaven or something similar.

Now to talk about your question. Absolutely. I feel if people want to believe in god, I have nothing against that and that is your choice, but you do not need to go to church to accomplish this. For this reason and more, I am dead set against religion, but not faith (Though I do not have an once of faith in god, afterlives, anything of that nature). The children deserve the right to choose, but I think they will invariably choose no religion, same as when I was given the choice when I was young, but unlike me, they may sometimes choose to believe in a god or possess some other belief. My mother was a Catholic, and my father is an atheist, but they gave me the chance to choose with no repercussions. They took me once to a church on Sunday, but I flat-out refused to go again and that was the end of that.

[ItchyTasty]

I used to be an athetist years ago; but now after experiencing things like spiritial healing which actually do work for me. I'm definatly an agnostic now.

However I don't believe in god until I saw him/her/it with my own eyes/soul/spirit.

The theory that could have created us, is the Big Bang Theory and we evolved from apes, then to cavemen, then to us. That's how I see it so far....

[KittenAB]

For those that I click "like" on, I am not picking because of how much the answer agrees with me, but merely for civility and length because I cannot "like" everyone with the limits of how often one can "like" on here. So I do appreciate all civil contributions, just I'll "like" the most in depth ones first and try to get the others as I can. I love civil discussions on things and appreciate all views on the matter.

wetman, that is an interesting concept I had only heard of in passing. Not my cup of tea, but thanks for sharing one of the many alternatives out there.

Jason, you have excellent points. My father was a closet atheist when he was married to my mother, my mother was an ultra christian follower who threatened us with "eternal damnation" if we left the religion while also saying "but you can choose for yourself." That sort of thing is what nudged me away from what I was studying so when I read the books I was reading with a more objective view .... so I have a similar experience, I eventually said no more and before my mother could stop me, my father stepped in and we both left.

LightningXIII, that is a great stance on belief versus scientific facts. Different people have their own reasons for altering their beliefs, so long as they do not interfere with what's reality or cause you to oppress anyone for being different, there is no reason to discard them. Skepticism is what helps us grow and learn as individuals and as a species.

One truly interesting fact, in spite of all that's wrong with Catholics, they have accepted many scientific facts, as have Mormons. If not for thier treatment of those who differ from them, they'd be on the right course. It's strange that these two christian religions of all are the ones to actually accept that ... evolution just happened and the big bang is highly probable.

Note: I think they are still fine tuning the big bang theory so that's why I just say "highly probable" when mentioning it. Honestly I see no other possible theory, I just don't want to insult any who actually know more on the matter. Any astrophisicist (or one who has made a large portion of studies on the matter) wants to verify if it's the accepted theory, please correct me on that.

[wetman]

The most important part of the Pentabarf is actually the 5^th commandment, apply it well to the following:

A lot of the ideas behind Discordianism are, from some point of view (maybe Rinzai-Zen*...) valid. For example the concept that there are no answers to some questions, because it is not possible to understand the subject thoroughly enough to ask the right question. And if you do, if you 'grok' it, you don't need the answer any more.

Your perceived reality, as well as your values, might just be a grid imposed by you on Reality (the real Reality); so everybodies view through their personal, subjective grid is a bit different, and there is no universal truth other then the Truth (the truth without any grid), which we will never see, because we cannot get rid of our grids. If we could, it would be like taking the cornea out of our eyes to see infrared; possible, but useless because it would not mean anything to us.

I hope that everybody understands that Discordians don't take themselves all that serious. Use your pineal gland.

*They're the people who ask questions (and get answers) like this:

• A student asked Master Yun-Men (A.D. 949) "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Master replied, "Mount Sumeru!"

• A monk asked Zhaozhou, "Does a dog have Buddha nature or not?" Zhaozhou said, "Wu".

_{from Wikipedia}

[Guest diaperboykcmo]

@abkitten, a Bitter, self hating human being! I see why you go around bashing other people. Makes you feel good, what a sad life.

Religion is all about belief! You can't prove it right or wrong, and either can I! That's why it's called Belief

In God I trust

[robb]

An intelligent discussion up to the last post, then we heard from the evangical whacko. I would love to tell you the fact he's from missouri is coincidence but I remember attorney general ashcfoft tooi well.

[Alexandra]

I can say that while I'm not christen, I'm am pagan and I worship the greek gods, I am very religious and I will always remeber what my dad used to tell me when I asked him if god or the afterlife or things like that exist he would always tell me what ever gives you comfort is what you should believe because no one will ever know until they leave this world and find out first hand. I believe that anyone who find comfort in a belief even if that belief is not the norm or even in atheism should be respected for following whats in they're heart any hatred for a differnt religion or no religion is distgusting to me I think if you follow whats in your heart and soul you will live as good a life as possible but if you force belief on anyone then wheres the real connection to the faith I can't concieve of this method of thought so religion isn't bad in its self but the idea of forcing a religion on anyone young or old is wrong on every level.

[KittenAB]

An intelligent discussion up to the last post, then we heard from the evangical whacko. I would love to tell you the fact he's from missouri is coincidence but I remember attorney general ashcfoft tooi well.

Just ignore him. Do not let him infect the world we live in. They are a dying breed because of their irrational fears, so we know they will eventually disappear.

Alexandra, pantheism is a great concept, in spite of the low level of mythology (being connected things we do now understand) there is a strange, more logical, premise to the beliefs than many of the monotheists. Your father was a wise man as well.

[Alexandra]

thanks you thats kind of you to say

[TBlazer]

Religion has been used for good as well as evil. The evil makes for better headlines and sells more books. Whenever Im overwhelmed by the sad news surrounding religion, i think of the beautiful chirches and mosques that defied gravity and pushed the limita of human engineering. Or the equations ancient mayans used in astronomy that are still used today. It took science to create such things, and religion to drive us as one. It is a uniquely human quality. We will always have beliefs. South park made a great parody of this fact

In Dawning of the Sea Otters. For Science!

And who are we to belittle someone for beliefs that run in contradiction to science? We wear diapers for fun, for christs sake.

[KittenAB]

Religion has been used for good as well as evil. The evil makes for better headlines and sells more books. Whenever Im overwhelmed by the sad news surrounding religion, i think of the beautiful chirches and mosques that defied gravity and pushed the limita of human engineering. Or the equations ancient mayans used in astronomy that are still used today. It took science to create such things, and religion to drive us as one. It is a uniquely human quality. We will always have beliefs. South park made a great parody of this fact

In Dawning of the Sea Otters. For Science!

And who are we to belittle someone for beliefs that run in contradiction to science? We wear diapers for fun, for christs sake.

Actually, many anthropologists say that religion is not unique to humans, just that our concept of it is more complex due to our higher level of thinking. It's interesting to note that many domestic animals likely see us as gods, and rightly so. We fit the definition from their perspective. As for religion driving us, that would argue the fact that necessity is the mother of invention, as well as run contradictory to all organized religion beliefs which rely on people not striving for better lives to maintain the status quo.

Religion is best suited to pacifier status, when science has no answer and a non-scientist can't sleep at night, it's helpful to calm the fears and allow them to continue to function. But that's it's flaw as well, it quells fear and thus reduces necessity. Strangely, it's fear that prevents us from committing suicide, for everyone, it's fear of the unknown. I hope science never reaches into what's after life simply because, if they did find the existence of an afterlife it would destroy the fear that prevents most people from killing themselves, and that would just suck. Most scientific minds agree with my sentiment, many scientific minds are religious to some extent, though the majority are atheist or agnostic.

The ironic thing I find is that those who do not ascribe to organized religions tend to have far superior morals, contrary to what the nutjob zealots would have you believe. There are exceptions to every rule, but exceptions are few, that's why they are exceptions. As a few have said, a bad person will be bad regardless of what they believe, and a good person will do good regardless of what they believe, but the good tend to be more attracted to positive movements and thoughts. Of which the christian deity is neither positive nor kind, thus why many are leaving the religions based on it for religious views that promote positive change. Penn Gillette has a quote that the atheists use quite often on that topic, "read the bible, please, we need more atheists." Sadly, that is how most atheists convert, reading the book word for word. The problem with some of the other organized religions is they still maintain strangle holds on their governments, so even if they do read their holy books word for word, they lack anything to compare it to so the act becomes indoctrination.

We do need these rather dark religions to remain in existence though, for that very reason, we need something to compare reality to as a way to prevent the South Park episode from coming true. Many times comedy can shine a light into our souls so we do not forget the dangers of past events or actions.

[TBlazer]

I agree with you on most points except about religion being for the closed minded. I used to feel the same way until i took a trip to India. Meeting people with multiple degrees and PhDs choosing to live a life of religious devotion in the middle of no where next to a glacier in the himilayas changed my opinion. They were not closed minded in the least bit-they talked openly about other religions, atheism included, with great respect and humility. Ya, ive experienced some negative things from the religious types, but ive experienced just as many negative things from the atheists, friends included. We all suffer from the human condition.

Sadly I dont believe we as a species will ever evolve beyond a need for religion-it will always be there. And as long as there are negative sides to humanity such as greed and lack of respect for eachother, then religion will be used to justify such actions. It would be cool though if the world was more like star trek and less like 15th century europe.

[Diapered Jason]

Atheism is not a religion or a belief TBlazer. For the record, I think we should also distinguish between religion and beliefs. Religion is an institution while beliefs are convictions that are not necessary true, but drive people nonetheless. This is what I meant earlier when I was saying I was dead set against religion, but not beliefs. I think we as a society are prepared to drop religion tomorrow and we see that happening today.

Religion is best suited to pacifier status, when science has no answer and a non-scientist can't sleep at night, it's helpful to calm the fears and allow them to continue to function. But that's it's flaw as well, it quells fear and thus reduces necessity. Strangely, it's fear that prevents us from committing suicide, for everyone, it's fear of the unknown. I hope science never reaches into what's after life simply because, if they did find the existence of an afterlife it would destroy the fear that prevents most people from killing themselves, and that would just suck. Most scientific minds agree with my sentiment, many scientific minds are religious to some extent, though the majority are atheist or agnostic.

Nah, most scientists and engineers are actually atheist. I believe the statistic is 72% of all scientist and engineers are atheist with an additional 21% agnostic.

For the most part, I think we should never try to assume what the answer to even some of the most difficult questions are. Einstein made that mistake with quantum mechanics, because he thought how could god play dice with everything. He spent a majority of his later life trying to defeat quantum mechanics, even on his hospital bed, only to admit it was true before he died.

[belinda_sue_fox]

Actually, many anthropologists say that religion is not unique to humans, just that our concept of it is more complex due to our higher level of thinking. It's interesting to note that many domestic animals likely see us as gods, and rightly so.

Bollocks.

We need a new forumn "Pretentious Bollocks"

[KittenAB]

Atheism is not a religion or a belief TBlazer. For the record, I think we should also distinguish between religion and beliefs. Religion is an institution while beliefs are convictions that are not necessary true, but drive people nonetheless. This is what I meant earlier when I was saying I was dead set against religion, but not beliefs. I think we as a society are prepared to drop religion tomorrow and we see that happening today.

Nah, most scientists and engineers are actually atheist. I believe the statistic is 72% of all scientist and engineers are atheist with an additional 21% agnostic.

For the most part, I think we should never try to assume what the answer to even some of the most difficult questions are. Einstein made that mistake with quantum mechanics, because he thought how could god play dice with everything. He spent a majority of his later life trying to defeat quantum mechanics, even on his hospital bed, only to admit it was true before he died.

I said many so I could avoid quoting numbers that I simply did not know. Unlike religious zealots, I admit I don't know much about everything, just a something about some things.

You do point out one fact that is often construed by certain religious zealots on the Einstein thing, as well as something often missed by those who deny science as a whole. Scientists do not work their lives proving they are correct, they work really hard at disproving their theories long before they even accept them. Typically a quote mining tactic that is use is to misquote Einstein's last words as evidence that he was religious.

They do the same with Darwin, not to mention fail to realize scientists have shown many of Darwin's theories to be wrong, but this fact actually only proves evolutionary sciences to be extremely accurate at explaining how diversity in life happened. The greatest minds often doubt their greatest achievements, but only because they want to be sure it is sound so no other scientific mind can come along and unravel it.

It's quite odd to think about, that scientific studies are almost dog-eat-dog in this manner, but when you realize how that aspect has propelled our advances it's easy to see the benefit.

belinda_sue_fox, if you are going to counter an argument, at least state the position you are countering from otherwise it is not a counter to the argument. Your opinion may differ from the evidence, that does not make your opinion fact unless you can show something to demonstrate it's validity, and good evidence for philosophical studies is philosophy. The problem with my contention is that there is little work actually done on this, it is just a passing fancy. However, by the very definition of what a god is, domestic animals (based on what we know of how the brain works) would view us as gods. The view of something as a god is a religious belief, though it is not religion, it is a religious belief and therefore it is quite logical to draw the conclusion that animals have religious beliefs. We have caused a pretty good amount of evolution with the domestic breeds of animals through genetic engineering that they are much closer to our level of thinking than most other animals. Remember, we are related to those pretty stupid and laughably humorous apes and gorillas.

[Bettypooh]

I'll toss my two cents in here I believe that there is a "God", aka any other name other people may give him. Nature just works too well for it to be a coincidence that evolved this way That is the only evidence I can offer you, you decide and it doesn't matter to me.

I will state that I suspect those who believe without having showable proof, and also those who select their 'proof' only as a means to justify their own positions and opinions. IMHO that comprises at least 98% of all people involved with organized 'religions' of all kinds I also wonder why anyone needs any organized religion as all they do is offer a prepackaged set of beliefs to cause like-minded people to feel justified in their unproven beliefs. And they also create a structure that leeches away money which would be far better applied towards actually helping people instead of building shiny shrines, churches, and chapels that do no real good at all. If you want the truth seek it yourself and you will find it. If you ask anyone else what the truth is, or let them tell you what it is, you will be misled sooner or later- sometimes badly so.

Better to do for yourself and let everyone else do likewise.

Bettypooh

[redneck diaper boy]

I warned you, so no complaining about "hate speech," this is a factual video discussing a shift in the paradigms of US culture.

So here's my take, being a hopeful atheist, I hope there's something after life because life sucked and I don't want it to just end, I have started liking this Youtuber's discussion on science. He has many videos discussing topics of scientific studies, most of which I watch purely out of fascination. But his take on the movement away from religion in the US seems a bit optimistic to me. I still see a huge resistence to the notion that one may be wrong, so much that people are having a difficult time releasing their preconceived notions of what constitutes as morality.

My point of contention is that adults are converting still, though that conversion is slowing, it's still happening. So is there a chance that we will see a complete escape from superstition and closed mindedness in the US or is this a bit too optimistic? Is religion too ingrained into our psychies that it will take hundreds of years, or perhaps a world wide catastrophe before people see the value of free and intelligent thinking?

Though that was not his point, I'm posing that specific question based on what he has observed. A slightly related question, should we protect children from the brainwashing of the religious zealots, even for christianity?

Go ahead and be Godless. It is your right. Just don't force everyone else to participate in your religion of "Secular Humanism"! In the end, we will all have positive proof of who is right. I have outlived my father. Dad passed away when he was 54. When you get older, you will think more about the here-after. Being in the hospital, at 19, with a stroke will change anyone!

The older I get the, the more I understand that I am not invincible. I dare anyone to tell me that I have a weak mind. I have survived being a single father, grandfather, cancer, aurthritis, a stroke and 11 Presidents.

Religious faith is part of the American experience. Look back 50 plus years when America had much more freedom! If you don't understand what made America great, America's greatness will disappear! Several generations of adults decided to be Godless thus putting America on the fast track to self destruction. What the film contains is not taught in schools anymore!

[KittenAB]

Go ahead and be Godless. It is your right. Just don't force everyone else to participate in your religion of "Secular Humanism"! In the end, we will all have positive proof of who is right. I have outlived my father. Dad passed away when he was 54. When you get older, you will think more about the here-after. Being in the hospital, at 19, with a stroke will change anyone!

The older I get the, the more I understand that I am not invincible. I dare anyone to tell me that I have a weak mind. I have survived being a single father, grandfather, cancer, aurthritis, a stroke and 11 Presidents.

Religious faith is part of the American experience. Look back 50 plus years when America had much more freedom! If you don't understand what made America great, America's greatness will disappear! Several generations of adults decided to be Godless thus putting America on the fast track to self destruction. What the film contains is not taught in schools anymore!

Sorry, but wrong on so many points. First, "secular humanism" is not a religion, considering the words themselves are completely separate from religion. Being in the hospital for anything at any wage will change anyone, yes, but all dramatic events can change a person. They change for the positive if you can learn something from it, or for the negative if you learn nothing from it.

However, "religious faith" encompasses so many religions, over 3,000 in the US alone, a majority are christian in the US. However this was a recent change, not one that was ingrained in our formation or culture. As for your contention of being more free 50 years ago, do you not like giving equal rights to other people? Because in reality we actually are less oppressed, which is a portion of freedom. Combined with other aspects it balances out to being no less free. The problem being that every freedom we have lost was taken by a christian politician. America's greatness was actually because of not endorsing one religious view over the other, it was because of embracing science up until about 50 years ago ....

Ever since people have been trying to push creationism into schools test scores have been on a steady decline, coincidence? Possibly, but the influence of the religious zealots pushing out science and replacing it with fantasy has caused a decline in learning. This is a fact that has not successfully been disputed once.

You see, ultimately, what you call "secular humanism" is responsible for EVERY single luxury you enjoy right now. Science built the machine you are using to communicate. Science made your house a sound structure to live in. Science gave you the electricity to have light and air conditioning. That was all from atheist scientists. Catholicism is the only christian religion to have ever contributed to science directly, and they accept science, though their morals (based on the christian bible and following them better than any other christian) are shaky.

Yes, the bible not only condones rape if you can justify it with religious views, it even commands it in several places. Don't believe me? Read it then, don't just do a Google search, actually read the entire book. It also condones and even commands child abuse, stoning your children just for disagreeing with you is the prime example. It also commands you to kill all non-believers, including your own family. Oh yeah, the US is really based on christian values. Sorry, but no it's not. It's based on secular values that were chosen very carefully to give people the power to avoid persecution from strict christian values, actually.

[Guest diaperboykcmo]

Religion is a belief! You can't prove me right or wrong! lol

[Alexandra]

He's a troll, a bully and troll, who is too old and bitter to understand that not only are the times changing but they are changing more or less for the better he would rather we still refuse to let women and african americans vote I bet.

[belinda_sue_fox]

You see, ultimately, what you call "secular humanism" is responsible for EVERY single luxury you enjoy right now. Science built the machine you are using to communicate. Science made your house a sound structure to live in. Science gave you the electricity to have light and air conditioning. That was all from atheist scientists. Catholicism is the only christian religion to have ever contributed to science directly, and they accept science

Seriously do you have a troop of baboons making this pile of tripe up? Do they just join up random sentances?

[KittenAB]

Seriously do you have a troop of baboons making this pile of tripe up? Do they just join up random sentances?

Again, do you not have any factual information to add or a valid argument at all? If you do not, or you do not wish your views challenged by those who do, then heed the title. I warned you and you clicked, so either you wanted to engage in discussion or just find things to be insulted by. At least point to one fact and try to discredit it, just one.

[KittenAB]

Religion is a belief! You can't prove me right or wrong! lol

So then, unicorns, leprechauns, big foot, UFOs, dragons, chimera, men on Mars, goblins, Cthulhu .... are religious?