Wow! I Finally Agree With Prezbo!

[sarah_ab]

so wait my good friend who was born and raised in america, to parents who were also born and raised in ameria, who is muslim.. is being slapped in the face because other americans want to built a place of worship?

not getting it..

Americans are muslim, americans are jewish, americans are catholic, are of asian decent, african decent, south american decent, european decent, there is no american race, there is no american religion.

And for those who say islam is an entire way of life... if you are truely jewish, or catholic, or baptist it too is a complete way of life, catholics only eat certain food at certain times of hte year, as do those who are jewish as do those who are muslim. All three of these religions have entire cultures that go with it for those who are devout.... then again i've met catholics who eat meat on fridays during lent, and jewsih people who don't fast on yom kippur....

ohhhh woops.. i'm sorry, i forgot, some people just prefer to live in ignorance... its so much easier than actually learning something...

[toon]

George W. was reelected. the senate in NY hasnt been thrown out....Gov. Paterson hasnt been impeached. All of which goes to show....ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN IN NY.

Bloomberg had the specified term for mayor of NY overturned and is serving an extra term. What I've said all along is the people there in NY who dont want that mosque

there. They were the ones who watched the people jump to their deaths from the burning building. They bled there that day they cried and of course were traumatized.

They are the ones who lost someone on the planes. They are the ones related to someone in those buildings. Some of them were in those buildings and survived. Some

of them were related to the firefighters who died in the towers. Some of them were those firefighters.

Imagine the pain these people and their families felt. Imagine trying to pick your life back up after such an event. Now your starting to get past it "MAYBE".

Now you have an image of the motivation of those attacks trying to be built that close to the very spot where you experianced that trauma. Can you put yourself

in their shoes? I see one of you is from connecticut. Another from Seattle...someone from Georgia. I dont think any of you would be talking about religious freedom

if you were there. If you witnessed the carnage. If you lost someone on Sept. 11th.

I was still living in Indiana. I now live in NJ. I spend most of my days now in Manhattan. My wife was there Sept. 11th handing out waters and gatorades after the buildings fell.

she was there for a week after during cleanup. She witness bodies being found in the debris. She witness at every body they found everyone stood solemn and saluted the remains.

Out of all of this pain. Out of the devastation and the sorrow that emanates from Ground Zero the echos of the last words of those hijackers who flew those planes into their targets.

"Allah Akbar".

If these people were respectable muslims. If these people were compassionate or understanding. If these muslims who want to build this mosque cared about anybody but themselves in the area

they wouldnt want to build there at that spot so close to such a still sore wound.

I personally say DAMN their right to freedom of religion in this case. If I had to sacrifice my right to privacy afterwards to protect myself and our nation from another attack. If I have to go through

the extra bs at the airport, or the subway, or constantly hear about all these other terrorist plots in NY then in this case we should sacrifice their freedom of religion.

thats just my opinion. Yours may differ.

[Bettypooh]

....ohhhh woops.. i'm sorry, i forgot, some people just prefer to live in ignorance... its so much easier than actually learning something...

That is at the root of many of America's problems today, not just this one I have friends who swallow the hype spouted by their favorite talk show hosts- basically because they like what they're hearing and agree with the concept as it is stated to them But when we discuss the issue and I show them the whole truth they just look befuddled-they can't seem to understand why someone they like and agree with could be so wrong And the next day they've forgotten my words and are back to being happily brainwashed by the same idiots again

Very few things are simple. Most have lots of other inter-related things with them that change the whole picture when you take them into account Therefore to properly consider the issues you have to take those other things into account as well On this topic here's my personal feelings: I do not believe in the Islamic religion. I do not like or see any good in many of the things it demands of it's adherents though it has some very good ideas in it. I do not want to see a Mosque built near ground zero. But if I am to have the right to feel as I do, then I must give that right to everyone else equally- even when their views are diametrically opposed to my own. They have the right to do as they think fit and I won't protest them on that point- but that doesn't mean I support them because I don't Rather I know the idea of that Mosque is a very bad idea and even without the intervention of law they will suffer greatly for trying to do such a bone-headed thing as this. They are thinking only of themselves and forgetting that they are a generally disliked minority among the greater populace who are not likely to let this go forward- even if they have to resort to illegal means to do that

Me being part of other similarly disliked minorities I have better sense than to force myself onto people who do not want me even when I can legally demand that I make room for them and they make room for me even if that room isn't quite like I want it to be The law places prohibitions on certain acts, but it cannot do anything until after it is violated- and by then the damage is done When you're a part of society you have to consider all the others who are there with you. If you don't want to do that then you need to voluntarily separate yourself from that society and leave them alone while you do your own thing. If you don't get away from them they will push you out- one way or another. Let them try to build this insult so they learn this lesson- they are not smart enough to understand it without having the lesson forced onto them

Bettypooh

[toon]

standing ovation!

[sarah_ab]

When you're a part of society you have to consider all the others who are there with you. If you don't want to do that then you need to voluntarily separate yourself from that society and leave them alone while you do your own thing.

Bettypooh

its funny yet you do not consider muslims part of american society... .. even though there are countless muslims who are second third fourth generation americans, they are still 'not part' of our society? what about the japanese? i mean heck just 50 years ago we were putting them in internment camps, or the jews who at the same time we were making fun of as a society and not trusting, or what about blacks? who less than 50 years ago could not vote and were still being lynched legally in many states? sooo all these groups are now part of 'our' society, but not muslims?

i guess what i'm saying is, muslims are part of american society, so if you don't want to consider all others, including them, then perhaps it is you who should separate from society?

I don't mean this literally, its just to exclude an millions of people because of the actions of a few is simply rediculous... do you think every single german is a jew hater? do you think every single israeli hates palestinians and vica versa? i mean i sure hope not!

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

muslims american's who died as a result of the terorrist attacks on september 11th.. what you thought only white christians died that day?

[toon]

I dont hate muslims. There are many in my family. The debate on the Mosque isnt hatred towards the muslim faith. Its about the placement of said mosque so close to ground zero. Victims and survivors go to the memorial to pay respect and remember the victims who died there. They were effected by the hatred of MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. To build a MOSQUE that close....you dont think is insensitive or inconsiderate?

[sarah_ab]

no i do not. What i think is inconsiderate is that people cannot differentiate between extremists who's beliefs barely even resemble the actual beliefs of their so called religion.... i think people need to be a little less uptight about things... If a christian group wanted to open a peaceful place for people to gather and pray i can garuntee you there would be no issue ...

personally i just think there should be a non-denomination place of prayer, worship, and peacefulness built, with rooms and areas representing all the religions of those who died in the attacks,... i mean lots of people do things for lots of reasons, its not as if the taliban is asking to set up bed and breakfast near ground zero....

and it was the TALIBAN.. NOT muslims who commited the terrorist attacks... the taliban is a group of people who share common beliefs.. and one of those happens to be they call themselves muslims.... the Ku Klux Klan is a group of people who share common beliefs andone of those happens to be that they call themselves christian. Do i consider KKK members christian? NO they have bastardized the religion. just as the taliban has....

but no one has a problem with churches being built in the same town that has a large KKK presense, or in a town where the KKK committed horrific acts of hatred... but they are christian, so shouldn't it be inconsiderate for other christians who have no affiliation with the KKK to build a church so close to where the KKK Killed someone?

[Bettypooh]

its funny yet you do not consider muslims part of american society... .. even though there are countless muslims who are second third fourth generation americans, they are still 'not part' of our society? what about the japanese? i mean heck just 50 years ago we were putting them in internment camps, or the jews who at the same time we were making fun of as a society and not trusting, or what about blacks? who less than 50 years ago could not vote and were still being lynched legally in many states? sooo all these groups are now part of 'our' society, but not muslims?

i guess what i'm saying is, muslims are part of american society, so if you don't want to consider all others, including them, then perhaps it is you who should separate from society?

I don't mean this literally, its just to exclude an millions of people because of the actions of a few is simply rediculous... do you think every single german is a jew hater? do you think every single israeli hates palestinians and vica versa? i mean i sure hope not!

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

muslims american's who died as a result of the terorrist attacks on september 11th.. what you thought only white christians died that day?

Sarah, it is obvious that you aren't comprehending what I write well at all. Nowhere did I say that Muslims weren't part of American society- I didn't even imply that What I did say is that minorities which do not fit into a society will be pushed out if they don't leave on their own volition- and that Muslims are a minority. Perhaps you missed school when they told of the Mormons and what they had to do. Or when French-descended Americans migrated to New Orleans. Or when Blacks headed north in the late 40's and 50's to escape southern repression. Like it or not, people WILL identify a group as a whole based on knowing something of a few of them. And at this time Americans are suspicious of Muslims and people of middle eastern background based on the media's concentration on painting Muslims as odd and possibly bad people

When the word "terrorist" is said, the image which comes to most American's minds is a middle eastern male wearing traditional garb. It is not the clean-cut look of Americans like McVeigh or the wily Rudolph or even the Englishman Guy Fawkes. Unless you're totally out of touch you know this is true and you likely see the same thing in your head too. I personally think most people claiming to be Muslims, Jews, Christians, Shinto's, Buddhists, and other religious adherents don't have their heads screwed on quite right and I'm entitled to that opinion. The reason the others haven't been mentioned till now is that this thread isn't about them- it's about Muslims wanting to place a Mosque where the vast majority of American society doesn't want it to be Their persistance affirms my idea that their heads aren't quite screwed on right for doing that. Anyone with common sense would know how such an effort will be perceived and received by American society today Maybe 20 years from now it will be different but the time for this is NOT now. Go back abd re-read everyones posts till you understand what they actually say before you go bashing them for something they did not say.

Bettypooh

[toon]

sarah.....kkk didnt affiliate with christianity. They were a secret organization made to protect the supposed white areas and to uphold the jim crow laws.The racist white party you were looking for was the Aryan Nations. They werent christian either.....they were protestant. You are way off base by saying it was the taliban. they were Al Qaeda

members. Al Qaeda

Al-Qaeda (pronounced /ælˈkaɪdə/ al-KYE-də or /ælˈkeɪdə/ al-KAY-də; Arabic: القاعدة‎, al-q

[redneck diaper boy]

For the record, I do not like the idea of a mosque being close to ground zero.

I accept the supreme law of the land that allows the Muslims to practice their religion.

I have read the references to the Ku Kulx Klan all overe the internet. The Klan did some bad things in years past. I must point out that blacks now kill each other at a rate that the Klan could only dream of! Stop demonizing an organization that barely exist. It is time to condem any racial and fanatical carnage.

If the Muslims want to improve their image, their clerics need to condem acts of terror. The cleric, that wants to build the New York mosque, refuses to call Hamas a terrorist organization. Lets get real. No Christian minister would refuse to condem the actions of Tim McVeigh.

[sarah_ab]

since when is protestant not christian? wow.... all this time ..... who knew.. so what exactly ARE the protestants? if not christian?

and betty pooh, youy are right i assumed you were referring to muslims.. however all those minorities you mentioned have come to intergrate with society, because people who were not part of the minority realized what dipshits they were being to discriminate against the minority and fought for the minorities rights....

but whatever, when i hear terrorist i think person who willingly commits and act to instill terror or fear in the minds of others, i'm more likely to think of white fundamentalist christians who bomb planned parenthoods or assasinate doctors than to think of someone with tan skin, dark hair and a turban on.... but then again i am not a traditional american, so i guess i'll just go find others like me and remove myself from this society since i clearly don't belong....

[Guest NaughtyAshes]

If the Muslims want to improve their image, their clerics need to condem acts of terror. The cleric, that wants to build the New York mosque, refuses to call Hamas a terrorist organization. Lets get real. No Christian minister would refuse to condem the actions of Tim McVeigh.

Hamas devotes up to 90% of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. Such services aren't generally provided by The Palestinian Authority. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities".

...sure does sound like terrorism to me. lol.

Whereas the US spends about 25% of its 3.5 Trillion dollar budget on military spending.

Who seems like the terrorist to me?

Sources:

# ^ a b "Hamas: Background Q&A". Council on Foreign Relations. March 16, 2006. http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/hamas.html.

# ^ "Hamas" – Council on Foreign Relations. Updated January 7, 2009

# ^ About.com – "What is Hamas?" Pierre Tristam, About.com: Middle East Issues; "'up to 90% of [Hamas] resources and staff were devoted to public-service enterprises' (according to Robin Wright in Dreams and Shadows: The Future of the Middle East (Penguin Press, 2008)."

# ^ Books: Kingdom of God The New Statesman May 7, 2007; "Using Israeli estimates, [Matthew Levitt, senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy] reckons Hamas probably has an annual budget of between $70m and $90m, 80 to 85 per cent of which it spends on its political work and its extensive networks of schools, clinics and welfare organisations, while 15 to 20 per cent goes on military operations."

...from the wikipedia entry on Hamas.

[sarah_ab]

Hamas devotes up to 90% of its estimated $70 million annual budget to an extensive social services network, running many relief and education programs, and funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. Such services aren't generally provided by The Palestinian Authority. According to the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz "approximately 90 percent of the organization's work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities".

...sure does sound like terrorism to me. lol.

Whereas the US spends about 25% of its 3.5 Trillion dollar budget on military spending.

Who seems like the terrorist to me?

Sources:

# ^ a b "Hamas: Background Q&A". Council on Foreign Relations. March 16, 2006. http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/hamas.html.

# ^ "Hamas" – Council on Foreign Relations. Updated January 7, 2009

# ^ About.com – "What is Hamas?" Pierre Tristam, About.com: Middle East Issues; "'up to 90% of [Hamas] resources and staff were devoted to public-service enterprises' (according to Robin Wright in Dreams and Shadows: The Future of the Middle East (Penguin Press, 2008)."

# ^ Books: Kingdom of God The New Statesman May 7, 2007; "Using Israeli estimates, [Matthew Levitt, senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy] reckons Hamas probably has an annual budget of between $70m and $90m, 80 to 85 per cent of which it spends on its political work and its extensive networks of schools, clinics and welfare organisations, while 15 to 20 per cent goes on military operations."

...from the wikipedia entry on Hamas.

shhhhh na, i've determined these people here don't want to hear any truth... so could you keep it down please?

[Yvhuce]

Personally, I think it'd work out best if they gave some other project the go-ahead to build there, rather than outright denying the mosque... Sort of a "sorry, they got through the red tape first" thing...

If the government doesn't stop it, the people of New York might... Or, as has been mentioned, it might end up meeting with a bad fate if it is built... Though, I'd suspect something more "pawn off on gang violence"-able than planes... Probly molotov cocktails or something...

A lot of people in this country see this whole thing as a sort of "now, you're just trying to piss us off" type of situation...

[baby-dandan]

You're right, I'm wrong, I know everything, oh no you don't ! The world has changed and thus the rules have changed. I don't think our founding fathers could have ever imagined the world as it is today. I am entirely against a mosque being built near ground zero!

Yes, there were Muslims who died in 9/11 but there were far more members of other religions killed. To give the Muslims their way is pure bullshit! Let's take a poll of the religion of everyone who died, survived, or were affected by it in any way and see what religion they are. I am damn sure the majority of them were not Muslims! So to make this all fucking fair, let's build a place of worship for every religious group represented then they'll have a whole shitload of buildings to blow up!

Well, that's my two cents. I know some of you won't agree with it but, oh well. Thanks for reading it, it felt good to get that off my chest. Now, one of you fire back with an angry message because I love controversy. If it weren't for that most of us wouldn't have a fucking thing to go!

P.S. For those of you that disagree with me I just want to say you're wrong in advance!

[Yvhuce]

Better yet, let's build something like a hospital, there... Something that can do some good without the religious arguments... Then, whoever protests the hospital looks like a fool, cause protesting hospitals tends to do that to people.

[Guest gnappies]

Was sent this yesterday

[Darkfinn]

Let's be fair here.

Poll all the people that survived the attack and the family members of those who died. It is their blood in the soil at Ground Zero, so they should have the final say on what goes where.

I realize that not all Muslims are extremists, but the ones wanting to build this structure on the site should really know better. Personally I think it is all a publicity stunt anyways. It would be like building a statue of MLK or Malcolm X in Jackson Mississippi... legal or otherwise it is just a bad idea, and it will only bring trouble.

I really don't understand why Ground Zero is being rebuilt at all. The Govt. should declare it a protected site, build a fence around it, and leave it as it is. The other great battlefields of this Nation where Americans spilled their blood have not been commercialized. Gettysburg is still there, exactly as it was during the time of the battle. Fort Sumter exists as a memorial and museum. The USS Arizona is still sitting on the bottom. These places are kept as memorials to the people who died there, why is Ground Zero different?

[AutieAB]

Was sent this yesterday

"Are we really discussing the curtailing of American's First Amendment rights over this?"

Yep, it would seem like we are. Pretty FUBAR, huh?

Let's be fair here.

No, let's be realistic. The law is meant to be fair to everyone not just a given interest group, no matter how heart-wrenching said interest group's motivation might be.

The law of the land is the law of the land and you cannot just use the '9/11 card' to trample all over it (with the possible exception of the Patriot Act ). The country would be the subject of international ridicule if it did and rightly so, considering how it preaches tolerance, religious and political freedom to other countries.

This whole debate and this whole thread reminds me of that Family Guy episode where Lois runs for mayor and realises that she can make anybody agree to anything just by playing the 9/11 card:

[edit] Can't embed the video, so you'll have to click to view it.

[WallaWalla]

Libertarianism is intellectually lazy.

[WallaWalla]

It's true, as it operates under the assumption that a document is infallible and defers moral thinking to an external agent.

Sounds suspiciously like something else I've heard of. Which is fascinating when you consider that many libertarians are also professed free-thinkers.

[Darkfinn]

The law of the land is the law of the land and you cannot just use the '9/11 card' to trample all over it (with the possible exception of the Patriot Act ).

Laws aren't meant to be fair. We have the 1st Amendment yet our money says "In God We Trust", our Pledge says "One nation under God...", the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution both mention God... Gee, that's not government supporting a particular religion, now is it? The United States was founded on strongly Christian principles... in case you didn't read your history.

And the Patriot Act is the perfect example of trampling over people's rights with the "9/11 card". It's already been done once, why not do it some more?

[KittenAB]

Laws aren't meant to be fair. We have the 1st Amendment yet our money says "In God We Trust", our Pledge says "One nation under God...", the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution both mention God... Gee, that's not government supporting a particular religion, now is it? The United States was founded on strongly Christian principles... in case you didn't read your history.

And the Patriot Act is the perfect example of trampling over people's rights with the "9/11 card". It's already been done once, why not do it some more?

Just because something is or because something was done, does not make it right. Should we make Arab concentration camps like we did for all Asians when Japan bombed us?

[Darkfinn]

Just because something is or because something was done, does not make it right. Should we make Arab concentration camps like we did for all Asians when Japan bombed us?

You mean like Gitmo? Oh crap... we already did that too. Admittedly it is on a smaller scale than what was done in WWII, but then the war itself is on a smaller scale too.

Unfortunately, if you read the literature put out by these radical Muslim groups you will rapidly come to the realization that there is no compromise with them, no way to live in peace. They would happily kill every single one of us if they could. When you run into that kind of intense hatred and fanaticism there is only one course of action... kill them before they kill you.

[Guest NaughtyAshes]

Unfortunately, if you read the literature put out by these radical Muslim groups you will rapidly come to the realization that there is no compromise with them, no way to live in peace. They would happily kill every single one of us if they could. When you run into that kind of intense hatred and fanaticism there is only one course of action... kill them before they kill you.

We need to seriously buy you a Jump to Conclusions Mat.