Wow! I Finally Agree With Prezbo!

[redneck diaper boy]

There is a lot of chatter with regard to Muslims constructing a mosque near Ground Zero.

It is a pretty good bet that the Muslims are building the Mosque to mark the spot of great Islamic conquest. The sole purpose of this Mosque is to put their religion in the face of the victims of 9-11.

I don't like the fact that they are building a mosque near ground zero. There is this thing called the "First Amendment"! Our founding fathers thought that freedom of religion was important enough to place it first in the Bill Of Rights.

In summery there is nothing that the government can do to stop the mosque construction. If the government manages to stop the construction, be very afraid! If they can stop construction of a mosque, they could also stop construction of churches,temples and synagogues!

[sarah_ab]

while i don't agree with all you are saying in this post, i do agree the government has no place to stop this construction,... the separation of church and state is oft quoted, and this is a chance to prove that the state stays out of the church.. if only the church could learn to stay out of the state..... and i mean any and every church, not just one in particular!!! oh well....

[sarah_ab]

i have a bag with that on it.. its a black bag with big white lettering... got it on archie mcphee and love using it.

[square_duck]

Maybe the government can't stop the construction, which means that Muslims are simply using our own Constitution against us, BUT that doesn't mean that at some time after completion, some......'random' airplane(s) can't just "happen" to crash into the building and destroy it...weird how history sometimes repeats itself

[KittenAB]

Maybe the government can't stop the construction, which means that Muslims are simply using our own Constitution against us, BUT that doesn't mean that at some time after completion, some......'random' airplane(s) can't just "happen" to crash into the building and destroy it...weird how history sometimes repeats itself

I find that idea disturbing, more so than the whole mess of blaming all of one people for the actions of a few ... sound familiar, history is already repeating itself, remember what happened with the Japanese war? Right now as a country we are repeating that same mistake, thinking all people like the ones that attacked are to blame. Here we are going backwards in many ways, while other countries are moving forward, in spite of the pretty little packaging we have on our government and our country, we are not as great as we once were, thanks to this kind of backwards and scary thinking.

FYI, most of the Middle Eastern people are helping our soldiers not only find the real enemy, but to stay alive. The enemy there may be deeply entrenched, but they are still fewer than our allies of the same ilk.

[toon]

I have many muslim friends. I have christian friends and I have buddhist friends. I have jewish friends and I even have friends who are athiests. I for one am not one who opposes any type of religion. That being said the building of a 14 story mosque that close to ground zero is reprehensible on grounds of principal and compassion. There are many many many other places in manhattan *trust me I pretty much live there* for them to construct this project, and to just want this location is kind of a slap in the face to the survivors of that terrible day, to those who lost their lives, and to those who lost somebody in those two planes and/or the towers. I cannot say that this project would bring any of these religions together, because it is well known in the muslim faith does not preach toleration of any other religion PERIOD. I hope they get to build their project. I hope they build it somewhere else. Many of my friends witnessed the carnage of Sept. 11 2001 up close and personal and for them to see a mosque that close to a place where they experienced that trauma in the name of islam....is morally repugnant.

The problem here is political correctness in our great nation. We are so willing to change our ways to suit everyone else that in the end....we will lose ourselves.

[KittenAB]

I have many muslim friends. I have christian friends and I have buddhist friends. I have jewish friends and I even have friends who are athiests. I for one am not one who opposes any type of religion. That being said the building of a 14 story mosque that close to ground zero is reprehensible on grounds of principal and compassion. There are many many many other places in manhattan *trust me I pretty much live there* for them to construct this project, and to just want this location is kind of a slap in the face to the survivors of that terrible day, to those who lost their lives, and to those who lost somebody in those two planes and/or the towers. I cannot say that this project would bring any of these religions together, because it is well known in the muslim faith does not preach toleration of any other religion PERIOD. I hope they get to build their project. I hope they build it somewhere else. Many of my friends witnessed the carnage of Sept. 11 2001 up close and personal and for them to see a mosque that close to a place where they experienced that trauma in the name of islam....is morally repugnant.

The problem here is political correctness in our great nation. We are so willing to change our ways to suit everyone else that in the end....we will lose ourselves.

Actually, it would be more changing our ways to deny it.

[toon]

my point exactly. deny the site they wish to build on and offer another as a solution.

[KittenAB]

my point exactly. deny the site they wish to build on and offer another as a solution.

That would be changing our way of life. Allowing it honors our laws and ways, forcing them to move through political action would go against our laws and ways.

[toon]

how is that any different than our government keeping gays from marrying because of the bible?

[KittenAB]

The problem is that freedom is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" concept, you can't make exceptions to rules so you really have to spell things out ahead of time, and sadly this rule was spelled out already so we would have to allow them to build where they are able or risk being two-faced just like those we call "enemies" in the first place. But here's the thing, something that few people seem to consider, the whole point of terrorism is to force people to change their lives, their ways, and their rules. If we deny them this location, we play into their hands, just as if we don't rebuild the towers we are also playing into their hands. Penn said it best, paraphrased, the best way to say F U to the terrorists ... business as usual. Don't pretend it didn't happen, but don't change because of it, that's what they wanted was for us to change, for us to become paranoid and break our own rules. Do you really want to give them that easy of a win. Let them build there, and everytime you pass by wave with a friendly smile as if nothing is different. Terrorists want us to fear them, they want us to waste time and money worrying about them, they want us to fall to our knees and beg them to leave us alone ... I won't, I won't beg, I won't fear, I won't change for anyone, especially those who use fear and terror to try. I am a patriot ... this is my country, my family helped forge it, my blood runs in these lands, it's not their country, they don't make the rules, and they sure as hell won't change them either.

[toon]

I am not saying dont build because of the terrorists. I'm saying dont build because of the victims struggling to deal with this horrific ordeal trying to lead somewhat normal lives again and now having to see the cause of their trauma put so close to where they experienced that tragedy. I think at some point compassion and common decency has to outweigh this so called freedom. Let them build anywhere else. Keep it away from ground zero.

[KittenAB]

how is that any different than our government keeping gays from marrying because of the bible?

It is but it isn't, for one thing it's us, the US, deciding on those laws not someone else trying to make us change them. Though it's stupid, the laws for marriage were originally intended to follow the specific religion's idea of it, but ultimately it is a majority decision on it. I personally don't agree with marriage having laws in the first place because it is mostly religious, civil unions should be the law ... marriage not. But we are a capitalist nation, money rules us, and being that, if the people who want to build the church in one location can pay for that location, the law should not interfere. However, if you do want to press it, talk to the people selling them the land in the first place, who knows, maybe they can appeal that contract if they are convinced to agree. I'm also a huge fan of being capitalistic, makes me laugh to hear religious folk like that call us "capitalist pigs" ... meh ... we are fat on our wealth (figuratively) and we are capitalists ... that's what made our country strong.

[toon]

also I believe you to be a patriot. I do not doubt that for the least bit my friend. I dont think you could really grasp the horror and outrage 9-11 feel though about this subject. They witnessed people jumping to their deaths from those towers. They lost people on those flights. They helped clean up the aftermath. My wife was there helping afterwards handing out water and gatoraid. You have to understand the pain this project is inflicting on those who relive that event everyday of their life and are trying to overcome.

[KittenAB]

I am not saying dont build because of the terrorists. I'm saying dont build because of the victims struggling to deal with this horrific ordeal trying to lead somewhat normal lives again and now having to see the cause of their trauma put so close to where they experienced that tragedy. I think at some point compassion and common decency has to outweigh this so called freedom. Let them build anywhere else. Keep it away from ground zero.

My final input on this: But the source is terrorists, not Muslims ... While I disagree with the Muslim people as much as most other religious fanatics, they are not all terrorists, just as all Christians are not sadistic witch hunters or pedophiles. Want to really piss off the terrorists, work with other Muslims to rebuild the whole area, watch them squirm. Take the power from their methods completely by making their "others" your friends. It's mind games, that's what terrorism is all about, it's not about killing, the killing is a means to an end to them, the mind games though ... we should be able to win these, the first Bush did so well at playing their mind games they left us alone for so long we almost forgot about them completely (not that the first Bush was good at the rest of his job mind you). To know thine enemy, you must become thine enemy ... which is true almost to a fault.

[toon]

well played and touche

[Guest NaughtyAshes]

the sooner they stop christians from building churches the better. nothing but trouble, violence, and hatred from that religion.

[Guest gnappies]

I always like the analogy, which some 'Muslim' fanatics from SAUDI and EGYPT, got mad, and crashed into the twin towers. In retaliation the US/UK invaded IRAQ.

So working with that concept.

If some fundamental 'Christians’ from the US, get mad and fly some planes into the Burj Al Arab hotel in DUBAI. In retaliation DUBAI invades CANADA.

Not all strictly true, but you get the idea!

[Bettypooh]

While I don't like the idea of a Mosque there, the bottom line is that our founding fathers wisely decided that religious discrimination is wrong If they want to build there and they follow the laws, let them build it- or try to There is always social power where the populace does what it wants to do whether legal or not. Companies involved in the work might find the rest of their contracts canceled. Equipment may be destroyed or damaged. Persons attempting to enter the jobsite might not make it in there sadely. And there are hundreds of other things which can go 'wrong'. Enough of that and insurance companies will refuse to insure the job which means it will shut down. And even if someone does insure it, that cost will become astronomical causing them to have no choice but to end the attempt.

The one thing which brings me a wry smile is knowing that the Muslim leadership is tying their own noose and sticking their own head in it attempting this Their lack of social understanding and lack of intelligence in attempting this is doing them more harm than anyone else can do to them, so give them their legalities Let them try The People will decide whether the government does or not, and that response will be a stronger harsher punishment than the government can dole out I do not advocate illegal methods and/or violence as the solution to this issue, but I know how people are in the world, our world, America. This will not come to pass and if it does it will not stand the test of time.

Bettypooh

[diaperpt]

I did not read every single post in this thread - I find the whole topic very, very troubling. Would be ban a Christian church from the area of the Oklahoma City bombing site because the perpetrators were Christian? Of course not! The automatic and unbreakable link we've formed between Muslim TERRORISTS and Muslims in general is unfortunately typical of what WE do in this world. Have you noticed how much US vs THEM appears in this thread? THEY love war and WE love peace. THEY are terrorists and WE love peace. THEY have plans to take over the world and WE are good people...

Of course, there are some of US who are Christian haters as well...so let's burn all the Christian churches and kill all the clergy - THEN we can have peace! (No one said that, I know, but this is not too far from accurate thinking!). Those who say that Muslims ought not to build a mosque near ground zero have made a firm link between Terrorism in general and Islam. Now, for those who truly believe that, you'd better get in your space ship and colonize a distant planet, because if that is true our time is very limited. If their goal is truly to take over the world and dominate, they will. Strong borders, big armies, strong talk, strong stands, huge military action to wipe out ALL Muslims (not just militants and terrorists but ALL Muslims) still would not be enough.

I can not be any more sure of the true intent of mainstream Islam than those of you who are the doom and gloom group. I know what the Quran says, basically, but Islam, Judaism and Christianity all come from the same base. Whether you fear Muslims or not, it seems the only reasonable thing to do is to root out terrorists of all backgrounds. Work with all those in the world who seem to truly want peace and work toward that goal. Work to understand and accept all others in the world. This isn't simple pie-in-the-sky idealism, either. Let's see - has the attack-them-before-they-have-a-chance-to-attack-us strategy worked out well over the years???? Really?? When was that??

I at least have a tiny bit of respect for the honesty of those who hate Muslims, admit it, and get on with their hatred (I don't respect you for the hate...but...at least you're honest).

I have NO respect for those who say "I have great respect for Islam, but the WTC is 'sacred' ground and is no place for a Mosque" - what BETTER place for a Mosque, Jewish and Buddhist Temple, Church, and every type of religious place of worship? (yes, I know you atheists will hate that...sorry...so add a place of non-religious contemplation). If we can't figure out how to live together, we'll just continue the wars and terror. And it sounds like many of our politicians are up for that - mostly because it's politically worth it to take that stand. We've based our lives on hate and fear. How pathetic is that!?!

[happyindprs]

Actually, it would be more changing our ways to deny it.

I agree with you. This is not a subject of freedom of religion, it is purely political. Islam is not just another religion it's their way of life, their reason for living, it governs their every move and drives them to such acts as 911. Building at ground zero is purely a political statement to show the USA in no uncertain terms that, We came, We conquered and we used all you hold dear to shove our faith in your face!"

It would be wonderful if we could all just get along. (BS!) Muslims want Islam as the one and only religion and political force in the entire world. Wake up America!

[AutieAB]

Maybe the government can't stop the construction, which means that Muslims are simply using our own Constitution against us

US citizens being protected by the US constitution. Whodathunkit?

What bugs me about the whole mosque issue is that people always imply that it's some bunch of foreigners using America's laws to manipulate their goals. Fact is that most of the Muslims in this country are either US citizens (through birthright, parentage or naturalization) or LPRs and as such are absolutely protected by the constitution just as much as anybody else. There is no US versus THEM, it's just US.

Also, it doesn't matter where you plan to put a mosque, people will always say "Anywhere But Not Here". It happened on my doorstep last year - a zoning application for a mosque in my neighbourhood. Relatively out of the way on an unused agricultural plot, not some ostentatious minaret-topped shiny dome, just an anonymous building, set back from the road, eventually hidden by new tree growth. Well guess what? The local community (but not me) reviled against it. There were petitions, road-side protest signs, marches on the planning commissioners. The transcripts of the community input meetings contain little but barrages of uninformed ignorant, racist abuse. The plan was approved though, as it should be, because the state has no right to prevent an application to build a place of worship of any denomination if all laws and requirements are met.

Like it or not, neither the federal government, nor the government of NY, nor the local government of Manhattan have any right to decide what religions are worthy of using any given location. <irony and sarcasm> If you don't like it, why don't you go live somewhere with a more oppressive government? </irony and sarcasm>. People always bang on about freedom in this country and how much they love it - until that freedom allows somebody they don't like to do something they don't agree with

[KittenAB]

I did not read every single post in this thread - I find the whole topic very, very troubling. Would be ban a Christian church from the area of the Oklahoma City bombing site because the perpetrators were Christian? Of course not! The automatic and unbreakable link we've formed between Muslim TERRORISTS and Muslims in general is unfortunately typical of what WE do in this world. Have you noticed how much US vs THEM appears in this thread? THEY love war and WE love peace. THEY are terrorists and WE love peace. THEY have plans to take over the world and WE are good people...

Of course, there are some of US who are Christian haters as well...so let's burn all the Christian churches and kill all the clergy - THEN we can have peace! (No one said that, I know, but this is not too far from accurate thinking!). Those who say that Muslims ought not to build a mosque near ground zero have made a firm link between Terrorism in general and Islam. Now, for those who truly believe that, you'd better get in your space ship and colonize a distant planet, because if that is true our time is very limited. If their goal is truly to take over the world and dominate, they will. Strong borders, big armies, strong talk, strong stands, huge military action to wipe out ALL Muslims (not just militants and terrorists but ALL Muslims) still would not be enough.

I can not be any more sure of the true intent of mainstream Islam than those of you who are the doom and gloom group. I know what the Quran says, basically, but Islam, Judaism and Christianity all come from the same base. Whether you fear Muslims or not, it seems the only reasonable thing to do is to root out terrorists of all backgrounds. Work with all those in the world who seem to truly want peace and work toward that goal. Work to understand and accept all others in the world. This isn't simple pie-in-the-sky idealism, either. Let's see - has the attack-them-before-they-have-a-chance-to-attack-us strategy worked out well over the years???? Really?? When was that??

I at least have a tiny bit of respect for the honesty of those who hate Muslims, admit it, and get on with their hatred (I don't respect you for the hate...but...at least you're honest).

I have NO respect for those who say "I have great respect for Islam, but the WTC is 'sacred' ground and is no place for a Mosque" - what BETTER place for a Mosque, Jewish and Buddhist Temple, Church, and every type of religious place of worship? (yes, I know you atheists will hate that...sorry...so add a place of non-religious contemplation). If we can't figure out how to live together, we'll just continue the wars and terror. And it sounds like many of our politicians are up for that - mostly because it's politically worth it to take that stand. We've based our lives on hate and fear. How pathetic is that!?!

Let us also not forget that here in the US there are many American terrorist cells, usually aligned to one of our common religions and just as fanatical as the Muslim and Islamic terrorists, also just as vile. The only thing our terrorists lack are nearby targets or funds for large plans. But America has terrorists, every country does, the fanatics, often religious, who tend to be insane conspiracy theorists. PETA is one, the tree spiker groups are others, that are very visible and common here.

[Darkfinn]

It is a slap to the face of all Americans to place a Mosque at the site of the 9/11 attacks.

There isn't a Shinto Shrine over the USS Arizona, now is there?

The comparison of "A christian church at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing." is invalid. That act was not perpetrated in the name of a religion.

[AutieAB]

It is a slap to the face of all Americans to place a Mosque at the site of the 9/11 attacks.

And of course, you're welcome to hold that opinion and it certainly seems to be the position of the majority. But I'm sorry, it's irrelevant.

Let's face it. There are only three logical courses of action here:

1. Prohibit the opening of the mosque because it's too close to Ground Zero.

2. Prohibit all religious (and non-religious) expression within n blocks of Ground Zero so as to prevent the mosque opening but without discriminating on religious grounds.

3. Allow all religious expression, including the mosque.

Now 1 and 2 would be in direct opposition to the First Amendment and indeed the Constitution of NY State. So that leaves only one course of action - to allow the expression of religion, no matter how distasteful some/many/all might find it. All other courses of action are unlawful and would doubtless be overturned in court.

When you grant people religious freedom, you simply don't get to pick and choose which ones can be practiced in a given place because you don't like and/or don't understand the particular denomination. If you don't like it, you'll have to get that pesky First Amendment overturned. Good luck getting anywhere with that