Scientology Dangerous ?

[Yvhuce]

Oh but the Christian Church wants your money too.

Jesus asked his followers to leave their worldly goods behind and follow him, yet the Vatican is decorated with gold and precious stones. Hypocrisy anyone?

Christianity is responsible for more destruction and death than any of the others... the Crusades, the Inquisition, annihilation of the Incan and Mayan cultures, "witch hunts", I could go on. Churches teach judgment and intolerance, they harden hearts and close minds... which is the last thing that we need in an ever shrinking world.

You seem to have fallen prey to a mistake that seems fairly common: assuming that Catholicism speaks and acts in the interests of Christianity. The Catholic church is prone to corruption and greed and power-tripping. Its because of these qualities that the US has the whole "separation of church and state" thing: to keep the Catholic church from becoming the governing body of the country. Most non-Catholics tend to denounce them, or even see them as a form of cult ("Mary-worshipers", if you will). They are not our voice, or our representative. We don't follow the Vatican or the Pope. So stop associating them with the rest of us. It's an insult.

[PrincessDragonette]

IMHO, I feel that is because your statement implies a latent, conditioned acceptance of a notion that the Vatican has supreme, undebatable authority as a vicar of Christ, even though you would expressly--and logically--deny it. The Vatican is a self-proclaimed 'supreme authority' which is no more or less valid than that of any other religious entity which embraces many of the basic tenets of Jesus' teachings. I think Jesus would very well be appalled by most everything about every organized religion which claims to do His "bidding". Their confidence in their religious stature is based largely on the fact that Jesus has not come down in person to either endorse or rebuff their authorities. Self-assumed authority by virtue of an absent superior with no confirmation of such from said absent party is no authority at all. History is liberally pockmarked with examples which amply demonstrate this.

This logic can be applied to governments and their subordinate ministries and agencies because they all form an entity which claims sovereignty "in the name of God". So the questions are thus: What is God's name? Is there one or many gods? Whose god(s) do we embrace? Can we consult them? Do they take physical form? Of course, the logical person will answer each question in the negative capacity, and it becomes clear that sovereignty is technically a fallacy because it relies on a standard other than logic: it relies on intangibles for its viability. If a logical society were to respond and mobilize on that concept, the world's governments would not exist. They exist because they are necessary entities for order and equity of a given society, in spite of what a society's religious moralists or its corporate coffers would have us embrace...or goose-step to.

I agree with much that you've said here, especially on the government points.

You seem to have fallen prey to a mistake that seems fairly common: assuming that Catholicism speaks and acts in the interests of Christianity. The Catholic church is prone to corruption and greed and power-tripping. Its because of these qualities that the US has the whole "separation of church and state" thing: to keep the Catholic church from becoming the governing body of the country. Most non-Catholics tend to denounce them, or even see them as a form of cult ("Mary-worshipers", if you will). They are not our voice, or our representative. We don't follow the Vatican or the Pope. So stop associating them with the rest of us. It's an insult.

Use of the Catholic Church in reference to Christianity was a mistake... But his point is still valid to a degree. I've been to a very broad spectrum of churches that fall under the Christian umbrella, never once have I been to one that did not request money. That isn't to say that any religion which requests money is a cult, but rather that the argument against Scientology based solely on the fact that they request/charge money is a poor one, as asking for money seems to be a staple of the world's religions. Where his argument does fall apart; the original monetary argument against Scientology in this thread was based on the fact that money can buy you a position in the church. I don't see any correlations between that and Christian churches, at least that I'm aware of. I can see where the perception of that may exist within Roman Catholicism, given their propensity for opulent display, but what little knowledge I have of their power structure, it isn't based on the financial wealth of the potential candidates.

And as far as insult, for a non-believer, it's really easy to blend all of the Christian religions, that is to say the religions that have a profession of some level of faith in Christ, into one box. As obvious as the differences may be to you (and me, I was raised Christian myself) they aren't as clear-cut to someone that has not spent much of their life studying/absorbing Christian theology. So you can be insulted, but it really isn't his fault. It's like lumping Shi'a and Sunni Muslims together. I can't honestly say I know the difference between the two, but they obviously know the difference as they're willing to fight each other to gain primacy. From the inside it's easy to tell the difference, they are your beliefs after all, but from the outside, without the benefit of years spent in the church learning the difference, they can look much the same. Just sayin'

[Darkfinn]

My references to the Catholic Church are simply there because it is the largest and most well known symbol of Christianity worldwide.

And actually, the US has "separation of Church and State" to prevent the government from endorsing any one particular religion... as was done in Britain with the Church of England... yet our money still says "In God We Trust". The US was founded on very strict Christian principles.

[tommee]

Just politely tell your Aunt you had a look through the kit (whether you do or not) and say it's not something you are interested in.

There's an episode of the simpsons called The Joy of Sect, which pretty much sums Scientology up.

If you want more info about Scientology, click this; http://www.xenu.net/

I still don't know what an NDE is.

[tommee]

Oh, near death experience.

[babyvr6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGP-0545EU

[freswith]

Thank God I'm an atheist!

[FretaBWet]

thank you every one

I am not sure wether to give it back to my aunt or throow it away. she is gonna ask about it and what do I think .

You have the choice to do either one but there is a big difference between the two. If you just throw it away, you will still be faced with a difficult choice of what to tell her when she asks you about it, and she will ask you about it. Throwing it away is the easy path but it only leads you to lying to her about not only what you did with it but what you think about it.

Giving it back to her and telling her you decided that you weren't interested might seem like the more difficult choice but then you are through with it because you don't have to invent lies to cover your dishonesty. You also will have the benefit of feeling good about your decision to be up front and honest which can be a boost to your self esteem. You might even get some respect from your Aunt for you honesty and integrity.

No one here should be telling you what you should do, including me, so I'm not suggesting either way. I'm just trying to help you see the difference so you can make your own decision. Good luck with whatever you choose.

Hugs,

Freta

[FretaBWet]

You seem to have fallen prey to a mistake that seems fairly common: assuming that Catholicism speaks and acts in the interests of Christianity. The Catholic church is prone to corruption and greed and power-tripping. Its because of these qualities that the US has the whole "separation of church and state" thing: to keep the Catholic church from becoming the governing body of the country. Most non-Catholics tend to denounce them, or even see them as a form of cult ("Mary-worshipers", if you will). They are not our voice, or our representative. We don't follow the Vatican or the Pope. So stop associating them with the rest of us. It's an insult.

Yvhuce, all of us make mistakes, it's part of being Human and I think the post above is somewhat out of your realm of experience and education. I think if you really looked into it in depth you would find that the Church of England was the primary influence in the thinking of the Founding Fathers when they created the doctrine of the separation between church and state.

Hugs,

Freta

[babykeiff]

DISCLAIMER: What I am going to say, might offend people and their beliefs. I do not criticize you or your chosen belief.

In my opinion, the only purpose of 'an organized religion' is as a fundraiser. The 'religious group' doesn't give its followers the credit of intelligence, All try to enforce

do *this*/ behave this way or end up in hell/hades/eternal damnation etc AND give up your money cause we can use it better than you...

Is it that the leaders of this religious group know better / behave better / can read and interpret some words better that us OR is it that we are too immature that we need leadership?

Is it that the book that this religion is based on is correct, and all others are wrong? If so, they what is the difference between Catholicism (Bible - new & old testament ), Judaism (Bible - Old testament scrolls), Hebrew (Old testament ), Muslim (Qu'ran), A: They are all based on different interpretation of the same book (Bible/Qu'ran), and all state that only 'there followers / practitioners will be saved.

In my opinion, organized religions thrive when the followers don't question the leaders. The better name for this, is a dictatorship or a cult. Scientology, among others, follow this pattern.

[curiositykilledthecat]

Everything you just said descrbies government as well. Human beings are inherently stupid, it is a fact that it takes money to get anything done, if you are a big enough retard to give all your money to a church, charity or insert whatever disease foundation here, then you are an idiot and deserve nothing. God has given mankind a brain and a guide book, he expects us to use both and not just be blind followers

[Dougie]

The US Government is trying to insert itself as the dominate religion right now.

[PrincessDragonette]

The US Government is trying to insert itself as the dominate religion right now.

Agreed. It almost seems that the State is beginning to cater to members of one religion more. The line between Church and State is blurring, in both of the major parties.

[Yvhuce]

And as far as insult, for a non-believer, it's really easy to blend all of the Christian religions, that is to say the religions that have a profession of some level of faith in Christ, into one box. As obvious as the differences may be to you (and me, I was raised Christian myself) they aren't as clear-cut to someone that has not spent much of their life studying/absorbing Christian theology. So you can be insulted, but it really isn't his fault. It's like lumping Shi'a and Sunni Muslims together. I can't honestly say I know the difference between the two, but they obviously know the difference as they're willing to fight each other to gain primacy. From the inside it's easy to tell the difference, they are your beliefs after all, but from the outside, without the benefit of years spent in the church learning the difference, they can look much the same. Just sayin'

While it is a common enough mistake, it's a bit like lumping atheists and devil worshipers together. Sure, to a lot of us, there's not much difference. But it's still a good way to piss off a lot of people...

Yvhuce, all of us make mistakes, it's part of being Human and I think the post above is somewhat out of your realm of experience and education. I think if you really looked into it in depth you would find that the Church of England was the primary influence in the thinking of the Founding Fathers when they created the doctrine of the separation between church and state.

Hugs,

Freta

I blame poor schooling, who perty much said it was the Catholic Church. Sorry for passing on their misinformation...

[Vermino]

techniclyy every religion is a cult including all branches of catholocism/christianity

kudos to this. Even tho I'm christian, There is nothing wrong with Scientology (so if you feel like you want to believe in it, by all means). I know a lot of Christians go to church on Sunday and donate money to the church - so wouldn't that be a scam? it's not like Jesus is receiving those donations. So believe in what you want to believe, but I will say believing is something is better than not believing in anything. (I'm not downing atheists, just my 2 cents)

The only cults/religions I wouldn't believe in are the ones that want to bring harm to others. (The Qur'an talks about killing an infidel to promise (x) amount of virgins) but most Muslims are peaceful people - Just because it says it in a book, doesn't meant you have to follow it. If that was true, I would have to forgive the person that took my best friend's life (because the bible says to forgive all).

I hope you all respect others religions because we all need to believe in something in life - it gives us hope and something to keep us civilized.

[curiositykilledthecat]

so many responses not based on an ounce of informed, intelligent thought.

[PrincessDragonette]

While it is a common enough mistake, it's a bit like lumping atheists and devil worshipers together. Sure, to a lot of us, there's not much difference. But it's still a good way to piss off a lot of people...

I'm sure it pisses people off, but your analogy isn't quite on the mark. It would be more like confusing atheists and agnostics than atheists and devil-worshipers. The differences are fairly obvious in the latter, one does not believe in God, the other worships a "deity", everything you need to know to differentiate between them is right there in the name. Whereas, to tell the difference between Catholicism and Christianity... you need to know at least a little bit about their core beliefs. Especially when both faiths, call themselves "Christian" faiths.

To contradict my earlier point, and prove people aren't very intelligent, I have been accused of being a devil worshiper because I'm an atheist. And far worse things actually . In my own personal experience, rationally explaining that I can't be a devil-worshiper because that would entail belief in some kind of higher power, usually does the trick in differentiating. I haven't tried getting angry yet, I'm not really an angry person, so maybe other people would have better luck with that.

And to be sure, I wasn't making an argument that the two religions are the same. More just to say that if it bothers people to be lumped in with Catholicism or Protestantism (depending on which side they're on), then they have to explain it to people. And they can't just explain it to one person, or five thousand and expect the ignorance to disappear. People have more to do with their lives than research all the nuances of the world's religions, and so they will ALWAYS run into someone that is ignorant of the difference.

I vote for peaceful discussion over anger.

[Darkfinn]

I blame poor schooling, who perty much said it was the Catholic Church. Sorry for passing on their misinformation...

The Church of England was split from the Catholic Church b/c the pope refused to grant King Henry a divorce when his wife could not bear him a male heir.

The more you know...

[Guest Katharsys]

$cientology has a long and varied history of "suppressing" those who try to expose the truth of their "religion".

For a background on the Co$ and how they have destroyed the lives of people, I'll just leave this here: http://xenu.net/

[KittenAB]

my aunt has a job selling Scientology kits. she gave me one asking me to read it and watch the dvd . I was annoyed because i have enough to read already . she told me its not a religion . I have not opened the kit.

my grandma mom and stepsister are all very upset that she gave it to me . Grandma says its a cult. my mom say they want to take your money . my stepsister say she had no business giving it to me .

does anyone know anything about scieentology?

Like all fanatical groups (religion or not they are all just plain fanatical groups) it's got the potential to cause harm or good. The flaw in them all is their recruitment methods and their strange conformity hang ups, but all in all it is what you make it. Organized religions (technically scientology is one) are generally abused by their leaders in some fashion, typically financially, though can be a source of good work as well. Just take it as you see it, if you like it go for it, if not chalk it up as a life lesson.

[KittenAB]

$cientology has a long and varied history of "suppressing" those who try to expose the truth of their "religion".

For a background on the Co$ and how they have destroyed the lives of people, I'll just leave this here: http://xenu.net/

They all do. I could point to every organization and say the exact same thing and point out their atrocities.

[Alice-chan]

4chan set up "Chanology" to battle Scientology. All I need to know is that lols will ensue. Rules 1 and 2 of the internet forbid me from saying more.

The Angel of Hope,

Alice

[Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover]

And actually, the US has "separation of Church and State" to prevent the government from endorsing any one particular religion... as was done in Britain with the Church of England...

That's correct; the separation of church and state, as well as the freedom to worship freely are granted under the Bill of Rights in the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but many people unfortunately don't even realize this.

yet our money still says "In God We Trust". The US was founded on very strict Christian principles.

This is incorrect, or at the very least, misguided. Our money did not read "In God We Trust," until the early to mid-20th Century. "In God We Trust" was added to all U.S. currency for the sole purpose of aggravating the U.S.S.R. during the Cold War, in an attempt to paint all members of the U.S.S.R. as "Godless, Communist, Atheists," hell-bent on spreading Communism to the rest of the world. After the Cold War ended, our money retained the motto "In God We Trust," in part because of a backlash from Evangelical Christians, and in part because there was no real reason to remove the motto from the money. Keeping it was easier than removing and/or changing it, and that's exactly what happened. After 9/11, some sociologists theorized that the motto might wind up being redirected at the middle-east to anger Muslims rather than Communists, but this never really happened on a large scale. Oh sure, a few people might have noted that our money says "In God We Trust," and not "In Allah We Trust," but overall the motto was largely ignored, and wasn't used as a direct insult the way that it was during the Cold War. But that's enough of that rambling.

As for the OP's question regarding Scientology; I'd simply tell your relative that you're not interested in the material, nor are you interested in the Church of Scientology. If your relative truly cares about you, she won't push the material on you. Of course, you could glance at it, just to tell your relative that you looked at it and decided that it wasn't for you, but doing so will open up a reason for your relative to continue asking "why" and to ultimately continue to push the material on you, even though you don't want it. I would make it very clear up front that I'm not interested in the material if I were in your shoes.

Regarding the danger of Scientology, let me put it this way: My Aunt once visited a church of Scientology several decades ago with a friend. They immediately split her and her friend up, and tried to force them to join the church after about five minutes. My Aunt outsmarted their "recruiter" and ran from the room where they were trying to force her to join the Church of Scientology. At the same time, she could hear her friend SCREAMING from a different room that she didn't want to join either, my Aunt ran to the room with her friend in it where the recruiter was trying to literally force her friend's hand to sign up as a member of the Church of Scientology. My Aunt "restrained" the recruiter long enough to grab her friend and run from the church, tearing up the partially signed papers along the way.

For several years my Aunt received death threats by mail and over the phone from the Church of Scientology, simply because she didn't join. She did not give them her phone number or mailing address--they tracked it down on their own time. After moving multiple times, and changing her phone number a few times, the death threats stopped, but the Church of Scientology has continued to send her mailings trying to get her to join them for well over 30 years now.

The Church of Scientology is a textbook example of a cult. They use violence to force you to join them, and violence to ensure that you remain with them. While all religious establishments use some form of fear and/or intimidation, usually in the parables they use to instill morals, and all religious establishments generally request money and try to ensure that you remain a member of their establishment, most do not use violence and other illegal methods in order to do so. This is effectively what separates a religious establishment from a cult.

The Catholic Church that I used to attend always passed around a collection basket, but they didn't demand money from those who didn't place any in the collection basket, nor did they shake down members who didn't place money in the collection basket. The Catholic Church would have liked for me to remain a member of the church, just as the Protestant church would have liked for my friend to remain a member of their church, but ultimately it was my decision if I wanted to leave the Catholic Church, just as it was my friend's decision if she wanted to leave the Protestant Church. We were allowed to leave peacefully. The Church of Scientology has been known to illegally freeze assets of members who have tried to leave, claiming that those assets belong to the Church of Scientology. Similarly, while I was allowed to leave the Catholic Church peacefully, and my friend was allowed to leave the Protestant Church peacefully, my Aunt was not allowed to even leave the "recruitment" meeting for the Church of Scientology peacefully, and many members of the Church of Scientology aren't allowed to leave at all. This is really what separates a cult from an established religious organization; established religious organizations don't condone violent and illegal actions, but cults do.

Now I no longer consider myself religious, but I respect those that do consider themselves to be religious and who aren't associated with a group that condones the use of violence on a regular basis. I consider myself spiritual to a certain degree, with a bit of an agnostic streak, but I don't like to push my beliefs on others anymore than I want them to push there beliefs on me. I'm sure there are some nice Scientologists, but the fanatical portion of that religion outweighs the moderate portion.

[KittenAB]

Too many stories on the "In God We Trust" ... the more credible one is that banks did it, since they were owned mostly by churches at the time.

[Sojourner]

That's correct; the separation of church and state, as well as the freedom to worship freely are granted under the Bill of Rights in the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but many people unfortunately don't even realize this.

As much as I agree in principle, it may interest you to realize that "separation of church and state" is a Jeffersonian term and concept (Actually, the term he used was "Wall of Separation") which is neither canonized nor alluded to in the Constitution of the United States or any other official governmental body of text. It is an at-large term which defines a stand-alone concept that religion and politics should be kept separate; it does not officially decree that any degree of faith should be disallowed in any governmental office, be it on an individual or corporate basis.

The First Amendment's provisions (out of the five tenets addressed within) regarding religion are twofold: they neither establish an official religion of the United States nor make allowances for establishment of such for a future time. They simply allow for the existence of other religions in the United States and that the adherents of these religions be allowed to practice without persecution of any kind, be it from government, other groups or individuals. In theory, such provisions in the First Amendment do indeed reinforce the concept of separation of church and state, but they do not wholly define it.

As valuable and wonderful as the principle of separation of church and state is, we must be very careful on how we present these beliefs, lest we relegate it to the same stature as common gossip we find around us everyday. Some things are too valuable to be left to such decay.