Healthcare

[collegebaby86]

I hate that my country only has the 37th best healthcare in the world. I hate that there are so many stupid people that rally for "capitalism" without even knowing what they're actually supporting. I hate that George W. Bush managed to run the country into the ground, and that there were still idiots on Fox toting his praises. I hate narrow minded rednecks that think every liberal is the next Adolf Hitler. I hate how easy it is to obtain a firearm in this country, and finally I hate that my state allows multiple D.U.I.'s before it becomes a criminal offense. If you get caught behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated more than twice, we as a society should do ourselves a favor and castrate you.

[Frogboy]

1 man can make a difference! Write to you local government official (we call the MP's over here). Write to the president. Find people with similar views and start a petition. There's a lot wrong with the UK at the moment and it's really starting to get on my nerves, so I do have sympathy for you, but until I've at least tried to change things for the better, what right do I have to complain?

Like you said in your first sentance... It's your country! i.e, not the governments!

Froggie

[loopy]

Wow, Godwin's Law in the first post.

And a tip, don't listen to fox, they're just hatemongers.

[Opie]

I hate conservatives and liberals who whine. Why you gotta bring this kind of shit into the forum? I hate, I hate, I hate... Go put on a diaper and stick a paci in the mouth. Better than using it to whine and do nothing.

As for the drunk driving, it's the only thing I agree with you on.

And CNN isn't no better. It's just hatemongering for liberal views. Watch both and you might maybe get an accurate story once a week. Again, why you gotta screw with someone with different views?

Frogboy, thanks for the ONLY comments that actually meant something meaningful.

And btw, I don't care if you are liberal or conservative. You have a right to your point of view and I have mine. We both think we're right. I vote and make my ideas known to ALL my elected representatives, even those of the opposite party. And it has worked before. FDA's ban on oysters in the Gulf of Mexico? Yeah, an hour emailing over 20 different officials. I got actual phone calls for three.

COMMUNICATE with your elected officials in a CLEAR and INTELLIGENT way and you will be heard. Whining gets your nowhere but the trash bin.

[curiositykilledthecat]

You might want to actually study history and learn about the country before divulging in mindless college dribble. I used to laugh at the college students when I was there. Our current commander and chief has spent several trillion more dollars in his first year than the last idiot did in eight. Neither party works, neither party cares. Both make people think they're oppressed so they can stay in power. Stop listening to your professor get off on his high horse and learn what type of government America was supposed to be and then and only then will you realize how much of a mess it is. You sound like a clueless whiny college kid who only knows what his jack ass professor tells him or what John Stewart says. I hope I am wrong. This is truly what's wrong with this country. Morons who think colbert and Stewart are intelligent journalists. Both are immensly entertaining, however neither one has a clue.

Our society is being Raped and pillaged by idiotic special interest groups and lobbyists. The only difference between the two parties is which groups fund them.

The left wants to oppress the majority and the right wants to oppress the minority, and people like me just want the government to stay out of people's lives and for everyone else to shut the hell up, get off their ass and make something of themselves.

Opie I agree with you, liberals attack Fox, even though it's because the non conservative viewership is higher than the other networks total viewership.

CNN- they were basically orchestrating Obama's campaign before he even announced it. Totally biased and they have been for decades.

CBS- thought it was cute that Dan Rathers forged documents

MSNBC- Keith Olberman, need I say more

Fox- Conservative version of CNN

Headline News- Nobody watches, so who cares

All the networks have their loud mouthed talking heads because they sell. Until misreporting and knowingly doctoring material is a felony,true journalism will remain dead.

Now I'm sure the cool-aid drinkers will give me negative points here however I speak the truth so I don't care, and for everyone else, have an awesome day.

[curiositykilledthecat]

I hate conservatives and liberals who whine. Why you gotta bring this kind of shit into the forum? I hate, I hate, I hate... Go put on a diaper and stick a paci in the mouth. Better than using it to whine and do nothing.

As for the drunk driving, it's the only thing I agree with you on.

And CNN isn't no better. It's just hatemongering for liberal views. Watch both and you might maybe get an accurate story once a week. Again, why you gotta screw with someone with different views?

Frogboy, thanks for the ONLY comments that actually meant something meaningful.

And btw, I don't care if you are liberal or conservative. You have a right to your point of view and I have mine. We both think we're right. I vote and make my ideas known to ALL my elected representatives, even those of the opposite party. And it has worked before. FDA's ban on oysters in the Gulf of Mexico? Yeah, an hour emailing over 20 different officials. I got actual phone calls for three.

COMMUNICATE with your elected officials in a CLEAR and INTELLIGENT way and you will be heard. Whining gets your nowhere but the trash bin.

P.S. I love you. An intelligent resposne.

[curiositykilledthecat]

Also to the original poster, I don't know you so I have no beef with you. None of this was intended to pick a fight as everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just see the same idiotic crap over and over again.

[Opie]

Curiosity, I had an initial response very similar to yours. Attack attack attack. As a former Marine, it's hard to not do. My post went through several versions before I settled on it. I'm trying to be better by not attacking the liberals. They have they own ideas and concepts and beliefs. I have to remind myself who am I to judge why they think the way they think. How were my beliefs born?

My problem is when people whine and cry about the government, yet can't be bothered to vote. They can't be bothered to pick up pen and paper and write they're representatives. There's a nice site buried in my favorites that lists ALL your elected officials at state and federal levels. It has they're phone numbers, emails, and addresses. Instead of whining, do something. One voice isn't much, but a thousand is.

And I don't watch just one station. Fox, ABC, NBC, CNN... They all have their political agenda. It's amazing how the same story can be wrote two ways. I don't trust any of them.

And thanks for the kind words Curiosity...

[redneck diaper boy]

America has the best healthcare system in the world! If our healthcare system is so bad, why do people come to America from all over the world when their socialized medical care fails?

America has the highest cancer survival rate. As for infant mortality, America does not look as good as other countries. Some other countries do not consider a live birth to be a "live birth" unless the baby survives for 90 days. The numbers are skewed.

My daughter and son in-law work for a local grocery chain. They endured a complicated pregnancy. My grandson was in the hospital for 2 weeks. His insurance picked up most of the hospital bill. My new grandson got the best healthcare that money can buy. Under Obamacare, my grandson would have been left to die. If you think I am making this up, read HR 3200. If you say Republicans don't have a plan, it is a lie. Read HR 3400

HR 3200 cuts Medicare by 500 billion dollars. I have paid in to Medicare all of my working life. Now they want to give my piece of the pie to illegals. The bill was amended to omit illegals but the amendment will not pass the Constitutional test. See Supreme Court ruling on Plyer vs. Doe.

If healthcare reform is soooo great, why is it that Congress has exempted itself from the plan that they want to force on the American Public?

Where is the government tranparency here? Asshole Obama stated that the healthcae debate would be on C-Span. Instead the Domorats are holding secret meetings behind closed doors. Then the asshole Democrats vote on a bill that they never read! HR 3200 was passed only a few hours before lawmakers voted on it. The bill was around 2000 pages long. Nobody reads that fast.

My healthcare insurance cost about 16,000 dollars a year. Now the assholes in DC want me to pay more taxes? To those politicians I say "Fuck You"!

If you think America healthcare is expensive now, just wait until it is free.

FYI it was not George Bush that created the financial probelms. It was liberalsim that created the problem. The government forced banks to loan money to people that were unqualified to borrow. It was the misconception that everyone ought to be able to afford a home. It was the Democrats that stopped Republican efforts to regulate mortgage lenders. Here is the actual video from 2004.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

As for me, to quote the lyrics from Lynard Skynard's recording "God and Guns", "You can take your change on down the road and leave me here with mine".

You made reference to Hitler. Hitler was a national socialist! Hitler's vision for Germeny contained government healthcare. It was Hitler that took control of banks. It was Hitler that took control of manufacturing. It was Hitler that wanted to control everyone! It is Obama who wants to tell you what kind of car to drive, how to heat and cool your house and the medical care you will receive! Hello!! Is this registering yet? Obama is America's Hitler Look out. A holocaust can happen in America. The concentration camps are in place. If you don't believe me Google "American Concentration Camps"

America is in the learning process. Most of the people, that voted for Obama, were not around or don't remember Jimmy Carter. America needs to learn that the Oval office in no place to conduct a social experiement. The government needs to leave healthcare alone.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson

"Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government." --James Madison "

I hate that my country only has the 37th best healthcare in the world. I hate that there are so many stupid people that rally for "capitalism" without even knowing what they're actually supporting. I hate that George W. Bush managed to run the country into the ground, and that there were still idiots on Fox toting his praises. I hate narrow minded rednecks that think every liberal is the next Adolf Hitler. I hate how easy it is to obtain a firearm in this country, and finally I hate that my state allows multiple D.U.I.'s before it becomes a criminal offense. If you get caught behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated more than twice, we as a society should do ourselves a favor and castrate you.

[curiositykilledthecat]

Curiosity, I had an initial response very similar to yours. Attack attack attack. As a former Marine, it's hard to not do. My post went through several versions before I settled on it. I'm trying to be better by not attacking the liberals. They have they own ideas and concepts and beliefs. I have to remind myself who am I to judge why they think the way they think. How were my beliefs born?

My problem is when people whine and cry about the government, yet can't be bothered to vote. They can't be bothered to pick up pen and paper and write they're representatives. There's a nice site buried in my favorites that lists ALL your elected officials at state and federal levels. It has they're phone numbers, emails, and addresses. Instead of whining, do something. One voice isn't much, but a thousand is.

And I don't watch just one station. Fox, ABC, NBC, CNN... They all have their political agenda. It's amazing how the same story can be wrote two ways. I don't trust any of them.

And thanks for the kind words Curiosity...

I do the same with the various networks. Beneath all their biased hate mongering i usually find out what's actually going on.

[Opie]

RDB, you almost sound like Limbaugh. I listen to him frequently.

Here's my problem with anyone who uses statistics. Anyone can make statistics say what they want to say. This can be done by polling only certain areas that will favor your data. This is just an example, not real life. You want to figure out an estimate of how many people have health insurance. If you poll rich neighborhoods, you'd have a near 100% rate. Then you could run out and claim "Everyone's covered!!!, Yeah!!!". Or you could go poll the poorest neighborhoods and come up with a near 0% rate and go out and claim "Health Insurance flawed, no one can afford".

Someone pays for these studies. People who pay for studies have an agenda. If that study doesn't match their agenda, then they don't use it or bury it.

I don't trust statistics anymore than I trust a known thief.

Here is one important quote I've heard in the last year... In order the government to give money to someone, it MUST FIRST TAKE IT FROM SOMEONE ELSE. Free healthcare is not free. SOMEONE SOMEWHERE is paying for it. It's either a doctors / hospitals time, taxes we've had to pay. Most people don't have a clue how much malpractice insurance and college is. Some doctors can barely afford to pay those two.

When you the one receiving the money, it's nice. When you're the one having the money taken away, it sucks.

[babychrise]

Having lived in Canada and the states, and having a complicated health condition I can honestly say that I prefer Canadian Universal Health care to the system we have in the US.

Everyone is afraid of what having a government plan will do to ones Choices for physicians, and care. Currently with most health plans you have little choice unless you want to pay 100% out of pocket. Take for example Kaiser Permanente. I love the fact that they do plenty of studies, and actually do do a good job a preventative care, but the second that you have an issue that doesn't fall within the exact coverage of your plan, you get systematic denial of care.

The story is similar with blue cross. If you want to visit a physician, in most cases, you have to determine if they are within your network, most likely by visiting a poorly designed website, which in my opinion is just another way to slow members down, and prevent them from seeking care. Then you have to actually go see the doctor, and hope that they still accept blue cross. I say this given that blue cross tends to pay the lowest amount for services, and many doctors no longer accept blue cross insurance as it does not pay enough to keep the doors open. I recently received a bill for an appointment with my doctor, he billed almost $400, and blue cross paid him $60.

That discrepancy in payment is seen across the board. Every insurance company pays a different amount for each service rendered, so to make up the gaps, doctors bill outrageous amounts, and hope that some insurance companies will pay closer to the amount billed so that they can cover their costs. I much prefer the Universal Health Care approach where the government decides what a procedure/visit should cost, and that is the amount that is paid to the physician. In a single payor system, it's pretty straight forward, and there's very little paperwork.

Here in the US there are hundreds of insurance companies, and each one needs separate paperwork, and billing codes/reasons for the treatment/visit, thus we as the insured, and our physicians spend inordinate amounts of time filling out forms, and jumping through hoops to make sure things are covered. I don't have any stats, but I would guess that at-least 1/3 of health care costs are used up in overhead and paperwork.

In Canada things were very simple. I just took my national health care card, and went to the physician of my choice, and I knew that they were going to be paid properly, and that I didn't have to worry about the visit being covered. Granted there are drawbacks, since the government essentially pays for everything, there is not a much expensive diagnostic equipment, so if you need an MRI and your condition is not fatal you may have to wait a while. And some treatments are not covered. However, if you want supplemental care, or better coverage, there's nothing stopping you from buying insurance to cover things that the government does not cover.

Personally I like that concept the best. Have a nationalized single payor health plan that covers the basics and preventative medicine for everyone across the board. Thus we control what I consider to be outrageous health care costs in this country as there is only one group setting the prices. Add to that the ability to continue buying additional insurance to cover things beyond the basics, and I think we'd have a winner for everyone.

I, however, doubt that our partisan system which is crippled thanks to lobbyists, and minorities will ever be able to provide something like this for the majority.

Sorry for the rant. Had to get this off my chest.

[Opie]

Everyone is afraid of what having a government plan will do to ones Choices for physicians, and care. Currently with most health plans you have little choice unless you want to pay 100% out of pocket. Take for example Kaiser Permanente. I love the fact that they do plenty of studies, and actually do do a good job a preventative care, but the second that you have an issue that doesn't fall within the exact coverage of your plan, you get systematic denial of care.

I'd say swap insurance companies, but I know how that goes with preexisting conditions. That would be one area I would like to see reform. However, for the rest of the population, understanding your benefits BEFORE you have a problem is of extreme importance.

The story is similar with blue cross. If you want to visit a physician, in most cases, you have to determine if they are within your network, most likely by visiting a poorly designed website, which in my opinion is just another way to slow members down, and prevent them from seeking care. Then you have to actually go see the doctor, and hope that they still accept blue cross. I say this given that blue cross tends to pay the lowest amount for services, and many doctors no longer accept blue cross insurance as it does not pay enough to keep the doors open. I recently received a bill for an appointment with my doctor, he billed almost $400, and blue cross paid him $60.

Hi, I don't know what your complicated medical issue is, but I always start with my family doctor. Same doctor unless I'm offshore. Since my Blue Cross plan is through my employer, if I need help away from home, they help me find a local since they know all the places we work out of. The few times he had to send me out for other services were also located for Blue Cross acceptance. And don't forget, Blue Cross is multi-platformed. It's much like the Better Business Bureau in that most "chapters" are individually run. One is gonna be different from the other. To me, you're describing worst case scenario. Can find those in Canada's health care system also.

That discrepancy in payment is seen across the board. Every insurance company pays a different amount for each service rendered, so to make up the gaps, doctors bill outrageous amounts, and hope that some insurance companies will pay closer to the amount billed so that they can cover their costs.

Not 100% true. G/f became doctor and left for three reasons. College for 8 years and internship to be a doctor will ring up a bill of over $175k. A new Doctor must pay malpractice insurance which is very expensive and never truly gets better. These two costs are not easy to bear and eats up most of a doctors income. To some, it's either charge more or leave the practice.

I much prefer the Universal Health Care approach where the government decides what a procedure/visit should cost, and that is the amount that is paid to the physician. In a single payor system, it's pretty straight forward, and there's very little paperwork.

Here in the US there are hundreds of insurance companies, and each one needs separate paperwork, and billing codes/reasons for the treatment/visit, thus we as the insured, and our physicians spend inordinate amounts of time filling out forms, and jumping through hoops to make sure things are covered. I don't have any stats, but I would guess that at-least 1/3 of health care costs are used up in overhead and paperwork.

In Canada things were very simple. I just took my national health care card, and went to the physician of my choice, and I knew that they were going to be paid properly, and that I didn't have to worry about the visit being covered. Granted there are drawbacks, since the government essentially pays for everything, there is not a much expensive diagnostic equipment, so if you need an MRI and your condition is not fatal you may have to wait a while. And some treatments are not covered. However, if you want supplemental care, or better coverage, there's nothing stopping you from buying insurance to cover things that the government does not cover.

How much of your income are you willing to divulge to "simplicity"?

There are horror cases on both sides of the line. In my opinion, I'd rather not have the government telling me what I can / can't do. At least I can sue an insurance company and not have the entire US government behind them.

Add to that the ability to continue buying additional insurance to cover things beyond the basics, and I think we'd have a winner for everyone.

This is another problem I have with that type of system. So now I'm paying twice.

I, however, doubt that our partisan system which is crippled thanks to lobbyists, and minorities will ever be able to provide something like this for the majority.

I agree with you here. Lobbyists on ALL sides, minorities, and leeches will make this fail if it does pass.

Sorry for the rant. Had to get this off my chest.

I don't want you think I'm attacking you cuz I'm not. I know our system is flawed, but I think the single payer system and government control are all bad ideas. Look at any other program the government controls and tell me which ones are doing well.

[curiositykilledthecat]

I don't want you think I'm attacking you cuz I'm not. I know our system is flawed, but I think the single payer system and government control are all bad ideas. Look at any other program the government controls and tell me which ones are doing well.

see I like how this has remained civil. I have two uncurable medical conditions, born with one and other developed later on. As current system is set up, I cannot buy private insurance because there is nothing protecting the consumer as it stands. If I get covered through an employer, I am stuck still waiting a year with no concept of reimbursement. America doesn't need another branch of Government, however some quality of standards and practices needs to be set. If people choose not to take insurance at work because it might cut funds from their personal life. That's their problem. It's not up to anyone else to provide someone else with a personal life. If you want to bu cigarettes instead of insurance, well tough shit. I just want a system that gives more control back to the consumer while enabling the industry to protect itself.

[ArtemisEnterri]

Ugh, another "I want universal health care in America" thread...

The problem with the current system is that the doctors/hospitals/specialists/etc charge too much and the insurance companies pay too little. Fact: BOTH sides of the situation are BUSINESSES whose primary focus is on MAKING/SAVING money, NOT on spending money.

As was previously mentioned, doctors have to pay back years of student loans as well as their insurance bills (property, liability, malpractice, etc), employee payroll, rent & utilities for the building they use, not to mention their own home bills (rent/mortgage, utilities, etc), so they raise their rates in order to "recapture" the excesses they need to spend.

Insurance companies (being larger businesses than doctors offices) have even higher expenses (more buildings means more rent/mortgage bills, more employees to pay, more utility bills, etc) so not only do they increase their rates to their customers, they REDUCE the amount they pay to the doctors' offices for any billable services rendered.

A "single-payer universal" plan WILL NOT CHANGE THESE FACTORS! All it will do is take the multiple insurance companies out of the picture and insert the government, who has proven time after time after time for close to 60 years (not sure exactly what year Medicare/Medicaid were first started) that they have NO CLUE how to SUCCESSFULLY handle health care. I know people who use those programs, and for most types of service you have to search for a doctor/specialist who will accept those plans in order to get treatment. Good luck trying to find a dentist or optometrist who accepts Medicaid these days, they are few and far between (we once had to drive 90 minutes each way for a dentist who would accept the plan used by my old job).

Think about this: who will choose to become future doctors knowing that their expected income will NOT allow them to successfully pay off their student loan balances during their own lifetime? Because that is what WILL happen. Instead of protecting the DOCTORS who need to have profit to keep their offices open so they can take care of patients, the government is gonna SCREW the doctors by limiting their income (with NO CONCERN about the expenses the doctors are required to pay).

What the government SHOULD do is tackle the insurance companies and the malpractice suit lawyers. THEY are the ones causing the problem! The "health" insurance companies should be REQUIRED to pay (IN FULL) ALL claims issued by the doctors/hospitals, and they should NOT increase the rate billed to the consumer (patient). The "malpractice" insurance companies should be REQUIRED to REDUCE the rates billed to doctors WHO HAVE NO RECORD OF MALPRACTICE INCIDENTS for the last 5-10 years, and if a doctor has NEVER had a malpractice incident in MORE than 10 years, their bills should basically be almost FREE. The idea of raising the rates for ALL doctors when someone has a lawsuit is insane (just like the way car insurance companies might raise your rates when your neighbor has an accident).

As far as the lawyers go, there needs to be a CAP on the maximum a patient can receive from a malpractice suit. If the doctor leaves a sponge or scalpel in the patient, they (the patient) don't need or deserve multi millions in "damages". However, if the wrong body part is amputated or the patient is permanently paralyzed or dies because of the surgery, then yes sock it to the doctor, but still not for more than a realistic amount (like the calculated total of that patient's pre-surgery earnings). Come on, would that patient have earned 4 million or more from their job BEFORE the surgery made them unable to work? I very highly doubt it.

To summarize: say NO to "universal" health care plans, say YES to insurance & lawsuit reforms.

[curiositykilledthecat]

Ugh, another "I want universal health care in America" thread...

The problem with the current system is that the doctors/hospitals/specialists/etc charge too much and the insurance companies pay too little. Fact: BOTH sides of the situation are BUSINESSES whose primary focus is on MAKING/SAVING money, NOT on spending money.

As was previously mentioned, doctors have to pay back years of student loans as well as their insurance bills (property, liability, malpractice, etc), employee payroll, rent & utilities for the building they use, not to mention their own home bills (rent/mortgage, utilities, etc), so they raise their rates in order to "recapture" the excesses they need to spend.

Insurance companies (being larger businesses than doctors offices) have even higher expenses (more buildings means more rent/mortgage bills, more employees to pay, more utility bills, etc) so not only do they increase their rates to their customers, they REDUCE the amount they pay to the doctors' offices for any billable services rendered.

A "single-payer universal" plan WILL NOT CHANGE THESE FACTORS! All it will do is take the multiple insurance companies out of the picture and insert the government, who has proven time after time after time for close to 60 years (not sure exactly what year Medicare/Medicaid were first started) that they have NO CLUE how to SUCCESSFULLY handle health care. I know people who use those programs, and for most types of service you have to search for a doctor/specialist who will accept those plans in order to get treatment. Good luck trying to find a dentist or optometrist who accepts Medicaid these days, they are few and far between (we once had to drive 90 minutes each way for a dentist who would accept the plan used by my old job).

Think about this: who will choose to become future doctors knowing that their expected income will NOT allow them to successfully pay off their student loan balances during their own lifetime? Because that is what WILL happen. Instead of protecting the DOCTORS who need to have profit to keep their offices open so they can take care of patients, the government is gonna SCREW the doctors by limiting their income (with NO CONCERN about the expenses the doctors are required to pay).

What the government SHOULD do is tackle the insurance companies and the malpractice suit lawyers. THEY are the ones causing the problem! The "health" insurance companies should be REQUIRED to pay (IN FULL) ALL claims issued by the doctors/hospitals, and they should NOT increase the rate billed to the consumer (patient). The "malpractice" insurance companies should be REQUIRED to REDUCE the rates billed to doctors WHO HAVE NO RECORD OF MALPRACTICE INCIDENTS for the last 5-10 years, and if a doctor has NEVER had a malpractice incident in MORE than 10 years, their bills should basically be almost FREE. The idea of raising the rates for ALL doctors when someone has a lawsuit is insane (just like the way car insurance companies might raise your rates when your neighbor has an accident).

As far as the lawyers go, there needs to be a CAP on the maximum a patient can receive from a malpractice suit. If the doctor leaves a sponge or scalpel in the patient, they (the patient) don't need or deserve multi millions in "damages". However, if the wrong body part is amputated or the patient is permanently paralyzed or dies because of the surgery, then yes sock it to the doctor, but still not for more than a realistic amount (like the calculated total of that patient's pre-surgery earnings). Come on, would that patient have earned 4 million or more from their job BEFORE the surgery made them unable to work? I very highly doubt it.

To summarize: say NO to "universal" health care plans, say YES to insurance & lawsuit reforms.

I like this.

[ArtemisEnterri]

see I like how this has remained civil. I have two uncurable medical conditions, born with one and other developed later on. As current system is set up, I cannot buy private insurance because there is nothing protecting the consumer as it stands. If I get covered through an employer, I am stuck still waiting a year with no concept of reimbursement. America doesn't need another branch of Government, however some quality of standards and practices needs to be set. If people choose not to take insurance at work because it might cut funds from their personal life. That's their problem. It's not up to anyone else to provide someone else with a personal life. If you want to bu cigarettes instead of insurance, well tough shit. I just want a system that gives more control back to the consumer while enabling the industry to protect itself.

But the government's plan as it is right now PROHIBITS "free choice".

There is language in the bill that makes it an offense for someone to NOT have a health care plan (or to have a plan that the government doesn't approve of - which is likely to be a very small list of plans). The are kids just starting their first jobs either while still in school (high school or early college) who think they are healthy enough they don't need a plan right now. And at the other end of the spectrum, there are multi-millionaires who choose not to pay a monthly fee for an insurance plan because they have the money to pay in full when they need services. BOTH these groups would face PENALTIES in the form of ADDITIONAL TAXES because of the way the politicians wrote the HR 3200.

As I just said in my long post, the government needs to stop trying to take over the health care situation and put pressure on the insurance businesses because THEY are the problem, NOT the doctors.

[curiositykilledthecat]

But the government's plan as it is right now PROHIBITS "free choice".

There is language in the bill that makes it an offense for someone to NOT have a health care plan (or to have a plan that the government doesn't approve of - which is likely to be a very small list of plans). The are kids just starting their first jobs either while still in school (high school or early college) who think they are healthy enough they don't need a plan right now. And at the other end of the spectrum, there are multi-millionaires who choose not to pay a monthly fee for an insurance plan because they have the money to pay in full when they need services. BOTH these groups would face PENALTIES in the form of ADDITIONAL TAXES because of the way the politicians wrote the HR 3200.

As I just said in my long post, the government needs to stop trying to take over the health care situation and put pressure on the insurance businesses because THEY are the problem, NOT the doctors.

I agree, if people choose not to take coverage it's their loss, not anyone elses. I just think it's wrong to deny people the ability to purchase the coverage at a reasonable rate.

[ArtemisEnterri]

I agree, if people choose not to take coverage it's their loss, not anyone elses. I just think it's wrong to deny people the ability to purchase the coverage at a reasonable rate.

Yes, but look at the fact that Medicare and Medicaid are in a royal mess. Do we really want the politicians in charge of a plan covering ALL American citizens EXCEPT the politicians themselves? Doesn't that make you wonder? They are basically saying "It's not good enough for US to use, but it's okay for YOU"...

[curiositykilledthecat]

Yes, but look at the fact that Medicare and Medicaid are in a royal mess. Do we really want the politicians in charge of a plan covering ALL American citizens EXCEPT the politicians themselves? Doesn't that make you wonder? They are basically saying "It's not good enough for US to use, but it's okay for YOU"...

non no no, i don't want a govt run option at all.

[M 90]

You might want to actually study history and learn about the country before divulging in mindless college dribble. I used to laugh at the college students when I was there. Our current commander and chief has spent several trillion more dollars in his first year than the last idiot did in eight. Neither party works, neither party cares. Both make people think they're oppressed so they can stay in power. Stop listening to your professor get off on his high horse and learn what type of government America was supposed to be and then and only then will you realize how much of a mess it is. You sound like a clueless whiny college kid who only knows what his jack ass professor tells him or what John Stewart says. I hope I am wrong. This is truly what's wrong with this country. Morons who think colbert and Stewart are intelligent journalists. Both are immensly entertaining, however neither one has a clue.

Our society is being Raped and pillaged by idiotic special interest groups and lobbyists. The only difference between the two parties is which groups fund them.

The left wants to oppress the majority and the right wants to oppress the minority, and people like me just want the government to stay out of people's lives and for everyone else to shut the hell up, get off their ass and make something of themselves.

Opie I agree with you, liberals attack Fox, even though it's because the non conservative viewership is higher than the other networks total viewership.

CNN- they were basically orchestrating Obama's campaign before he even announced it. Totally biased and they have been for decades.

CBS- thought it was cute that Dan Rathers forged documents

MSNBC- Keith Olberman, need I say more

Fox- Conservative version of CNN

Headline News- Nobody watches, so who cares

All the networks have their loud mouthed talking heads because they sell. Until misreporting and knowingly doctoring material is a felony,true journalism will remain dead.

Now I'm sure the cool-aid drinkers will give me negative points here however I speak the truth so I don't care, and for everyone else, have an awesome day.

Damn. Took the words right out of my mouth. But its cool, saved me the time to type a similar post.

But I would also add that like our last commander and chief that everyone likes to blame and bitch about, the current's interest is also only in "special". Just look at the evidence for this. Obama has backed out of every promise he has made since he started his campaign except the National Health Care Reform. And why is Obama trying like hell to get this Reform put into practice? Could it be that since he tried so hard to make all of his other ideas of "change" happen and failed miserabley he is going to hang in there and fight to the death for we the people and atleast come through on one of his promises of "change"? Well... quite simply, no.

The Reform is designed to grant the insurance companies greater power by "privatizing" it while making their bulging pockets even richer. I don't know how many of you like and respect insurance companies because we all know how promising and caring they are when it comes to selling themselves to you but when it comes time for them to pay up because you have a medical emergency, they will not only find anyway to get out of their side of the payment but they also provide you with the cheapest care they can get away with. So in reality insurance companies especially the health care variety do not give a shit about us, all they care about is making the most money they can get away with from of us. So why would we want to grant them even more freedom from the government to do what they want by privatizing it? By privatizing health care it will also totally eliminate what little compitition their still is between the insurance companies so instead of the ideal which is for them to compete to give you the best deal, which truly doesn't exist anymore since the majority of health insurance is only available through employment which is what the insurance companies want because they don't really have to compete for your buck now do they? Now in a freemarket, which I endorse, could force this to happen, making insurance companies across the board compete for you the individual and not through a company where if you are not happy with the quality of your employers insurance you either have to try and find an affordable premium on an individaul health care plan that us the blue-collars can afford comfortably (good luck) or quit your job and try to find another with better quality insurance. I beleive the insurance companies depend on this cause like I said it creates less compatition and cutting better deals on their part and you more likely to stay with the plan you really have no choice but to put up with. And on top of it all who is going to be stuck with the bill to support this "reform"? Yes we the tax payer. We get poorer while the big fat bureaucrats and private investors and corperations get richer. Man... they are already talking about as apart of the reform and individual may get fined for not applying for an insurance company! Yeah but Obama and the special interest have your best interest in mind.

How does this not sound like socialism/fascism people?

And I will end with the topic starter's comment about guns, for the upteenth time guns don't kill people, people kill people!

The second amendment is not there to give hunters the right to hunt game.

It was put there so in the result of the people of this country not keeping their government in check, we the people have a fighting chance in case that government became tyrannical and started taking our rights away by force! Yes, believe it or not it is our right and duty to overthrow such a government so out of control as stated in our Declaration of Independence.

You know what other leaders gun-control worked great for? Go ask Stalin, Hitler and Mao Zedong, worked like a peach for them.

[DL88]

This entire thread is pointless as it was started by an ass who only wanted to make generalizations and start a flame war.

[Opie]

It is an amusing thread. I enjoy Curiosity and Artemis arguing almost the same point.

[ArtemisEnterri]

It is an amusing thread. I enjoy Curiosity and Artemis arguing almost the same point.

At least people aren't hating on me in this thread...

[curiositykilledthecat]

Damn. Took the words right out of my mouth. But its cool, saved me the time to type a similar post.

But I would also add that like our last commander and chief that everyone likes to blame and bitch about, the current's interest is also only in "special". Just look at the evidence for this. Obama has backed out of every promise he has made since he started his campaign except the National Health Care Reform. And why is Obama trying like hell to get this Reform put into practice? Could it be that since he tried so hard to make all of his other ideas of "change" happen and failed miserabley he is going to hang in there and fight to the death for we the people and atleast come through on one of his promises of "change"? Well... quite simply, no.

The Reform is designed to grant the insurance companies greater power by "privatizing" it while making their bulging pockets even richer. I don't know how many of you like and respect insurance companies because we all know how promising and caring they are when it comes to selling themselves to you but when it comes time for them to pay up because you have a medical emergency, they will not only find anyway to get out of their side of the payment but they also provide you with the cheapest care they can get away with. So in reality insurance companies especially the health care variety do not give a shit about us, all they care about is making the most money they can get away with from of us. So why would we want to grant them even more freedom from the government to do what they want by privatizing it? By privatizing health care it will also totally eliminate what little compitition their still is between the insurance companies so instead of the ideal which is for them to compete to give you the best deal, which truly doesn't exist anymore since the majority of health insurance is only available through employment which is what the insurance companies want because they don't really have to compete for your buck now do they? Now in a freemarket, which I endorse, could force this to happen, making insurance companies across the board compete for you the individual and not through a company where if you are not happy with the quality of your employers insurance you either have to try and find an affordable premium on an individaul health care plan that us the blue-collars can afford comfortably (good luck) or quit your job and try to find another with better quality insurance. I beleive the insurance companies depend on this cause like I said it creates less compatition and cutting better deals on their part and you more likely to stay with the plan you really have no choice but to put up with. And on top of it all who is going to be stuck with the bill to support this "reform"? Yes we the tax payer. We get poorer while the big fat bureaucrats and private investors and corperations get richer. Man... they are already talking about as apart of the reform and individual may get fined for not applying for an insurance company! Yeah but Obama and the special interest have your best interest in mind.

How does this not sound like socialism/fascism people?

And I will end with the topic starter's comment about guns, for the upteenth time guns don't kill people, people kill people!

The second amendment is not there to give hunters the right to hunt game.

It was put there so in the result of the people of this country not keeping their government in check, we the people have a fighting chance in case that government became tyrannical and started taking our rights away by force! Yes, believe it or not it is our right and duty to overthrow such a government so out of control as stated in our Declaration of Independence.

You know what other leaders gun-control worked great for? Go ask Stalin, Hitler and Mao Zedong, worked like a peach for them.

Oh don't forget the other idiotic point the left makes on guns. Somehow the 2nd amendment was written only to apply to a branch of civil service that didn't exist till nearly 200 years after the constitution was written,

I just want the damn pendulum to stop swinging and for this nation to operate on commonsense.