Unpotty training update: I vowed to never stop myself from wetting and it’s taking me weird places.

[Enthusi]

I’m back with another personal update. As the title suggests I decided from now on I will do my best to never exercise voluntary bladder control.  Specifically I will never try to stop myself from peeing when the urge to go hits.  If I catch myself trying to hold it I have to relax the muscles. (I don’t have to make myself go, just keep things relaxed). 
 

I realize it sounds silly to make a vow like this:  I already hate having bladder control and my remaining control isn’t good enough to be of practical benefit.  Besides no one will know if I cheat.   But even so, this is having a profound impact on me: 

1.  I already tested my commitment by airing out and I didn’t stop myself when I had the urge to pee, leading to wet pants and wet floor.  That’s happen plenty of times before.  But what is different was that as I was cleaning the floor (still not diapered) I felt another unexpected urge to go. Man oh man had my bladder shrunk!  And being true to my word, I didn’t stop myself from peeing again.  Though I made my way to the toilet so at least there was less cleanup. After that second accident I threw on a diaper. 
 

2.  That helpless feeling of knowing that if you aren’t diapered you will wet yourself.   

3. I’ve been having a philosophical debate with myself about whether or not you could count this as incontinence as it was a voluntary decision on my part to not control my bladder.  Incontinence is by definition involuntary loss of urine.  On the other hand if I am true to my word and make no effort stop myself from peeing whenever I feel the urge then I effectively have no bladder control, which means it is involuntary loss of urine.  Around and around it goes.   Again it’s a philosophical argument as either way I need to wear a diaper.  My best answer so far is that it would be considered severe functional incontinence.  I’ve been meditating a lot on why it’s so important to me that my loss of bladder control be involuntary. 
 

4. I kind of trapped myself by not putting any stipulations on my vow to never try to hold my wee again.  Even if nobody else would ever know if I tried to hold it in to stop an accident, I would know.  Then again I’ve broken many promises to myself in the past.  Then again I’m curious to see if I can commit to this one. 
 

[oznl]

I'm not sure why lately but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to "go".  I realise I haven't gone for a while (although there are zero messages from my bladder) and if I stop and try to relax, nothing happens.

It's odd...  I thought I was long past the point of having to concentrate on "going".

[Kif]

I feel I can relate a lot to this, and have for-the-most-part kept to it (even peeing on the floor like you described)...But keeping the promise is hard. 

For me, at least, the best enabler has been feeling safe and secure and reducing stress in other parts of my life. I had a moment while commuting where I realized how directly that impacted me...I'd been really stressed about making it home (got on the wrong train) and as soon as my feet hit the correct platform I felt my bladder give in...and keep going, and going, and going. It was then I realized how much my stress / mood impacted my holding behaviors, that in a way my subconscious wetting being a sign of doing a good job keeping stress down and that if I had larger voids it was a sign I needed to work at it.

But yeah...stuff's hard haha. It is really kinda funny how much this extends to literally all other facets of my life, how it forces me to sit down and really work through the hard stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with diapers! Heck, I've been working with a hypnotist but at this point it's all general (but hard) life stuff like addressing shyness, boundaries, etc. ?  

[Hannah YMS]

10 hours ago, oznl said:

I'm not sure why lately but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to "go".  I realise I haven't gone for a while (although there are zero messages from my bladder) and if I stop and try to relax, nothing happens.

It's odd...  I thought I was long past the point of having to concentrate on "going".

It could be the beginnings of a "lazy bladder"... 

[Enthusi]

2 hours ago, jonbearab said:

It could be the beginnings of a "lazy bladder"...

Never heard of this before.  Can you elaborate?   More importantly if your bladder is being lazy can you put it out of its job? ?

[Hannah YMS]

1 hour ago, Enthusi said:

Never heard of this before.  Can you elaborate?   More importantly if your bladder is being lazy can you put it out of its job? ?

Haha, I wish! 

I find that during the attempts to untrain over the years, as months go by, I start being unable, or very difficult, to "will" myself to pee. I don't seem to feel my bladder fill up as much as I used to and my voilds are mostly floods as a result. I usually just have to let my bladder and signals to fire on its own. When I start peeing I relax as much as I can.

Sometimes I stop mid-stream unintentionally and I have to relax and wait for my bladder to fully empty. I often feel like it doesn't empty all the way a lot of the time.

Granted,this isn't 100% of the time, more like 70% of the time. I do have those good overactive bladder days that make me feel like I'm making progress.

[Little Cub Pants]

7 minutes ago, jonbearab said:

Haha, I wish! 

I find that during the attempts to untrain over the years, as months go by, I start being unable, or very difficult, to "will" myself to pee. I don't seem to feel my bladder fill up as much as I used to and my voilds are mostly floods as a result. I usually just have to let my bladder and signals to fire on its own. When I start peeing I relax as much as I can.

Sometimes I stop mid-stream unintentionally and I have to relax and wait for my bladder to fully empty. I often feel like it doesn't empty all the way a lot of the time.

Granted,this isn't 100% of the time, more like 70% of the time. I do have those good overactive bladder days that make me feel like I'm making progress.

Maybe you need to wear more comfortable diapers like Bambino's B.A.B.Y diaper so that your wee-wee can feel more relaxed when you go pee-pees.? I heard Bambino's B.A.B.Y diapers are like having a cloud or a pillow on your diaper area.?☺️??❤️??????❤️☺️❤️?

[Hannah YMS]

6 minutes ago, BabySpiderBoy said:

Maybe you need to wear more comfortable diapers like Bambino's B.A.B.Y diaper so that your wee-wee can feel more relaxed when you go pee-pees.? I heard Bambino's B.A.B.Y diapers are like having a cloud or a pillow on your diaper area.?☺️??❤️??????❤️☺️❤️?

I've never really had an issue with comfort, except with Depends, which I haven't worn for 14 years.

Abena L4s, Dry 24/7, BetterDry, are all pretty comfortable to me. 

[Enthusi]

@jonbearab Makes perfect sense. I’m right there with you. It may have already happened to you, but if not, sooner or later you get to the point where your bladder status is non actionable so you stop caring altogether. Full bladder… empty bladder…damp… wet…soaked…peeing… dry… they’re all just transient sensations that I experience throughout the day. Honestly, I could start a road trip with a full bladder, something that would be unthinkable to most people, and I would hardly notice or care.  It took a long while to get to this point but it’s well worth it. 
 

Also I saw on a different thread you mentioned BIID and a burning desire to be incontinent (ditto) and that you haven’t made much progress.  Are you positive you haven’t?  From my personal experience, incontinence is insidious and it’s easy to convince yourself you have more control than you actually do.  

[Hannah YMS]

19 minutes ago, Enthusi said:

@jonbearab Makes perfect sense. I’m right there with you. It may have already happened to you, but if not, sooner or later you get to the point where your bladder status is non actionable so you stop caring altogether. Full bladder… empty bladder…damp… wet…soaked…peeing… dry… they’re all just transient sensations that I experience throughout the day. Honestly, I could start a road trip with a full bladder, something that would be unthinkable to most people, and I would hardly notice or care.  It took a long while to get to this point but it’s well worth it. 
 

Also I saw on a different thread you mentioned BIID and a burning desire to be incontinent (ditto) and that you haven’t made much progress.  Are you positive you haven’t?  From my personal experience, incontinence is insidious and it’s easy to convince yourself you have more control than you actually do.  

Good catch. Yes I have BIID/BID. I've looped over and dwelled on becoming incontinent for many years, and not for lack of trying. I was even one of those "fortunate" untrainers who wasn't careful enough with other incontinence-inducing "things" and ended up in the ER for 12 hours. Problem was solved tho. 

As for progress... 

If you can call this progress, then I've since developed post void dribble. The rare occasion where I spot in my shorts, and lower cruise range before having to void. I used to get bladder "flutters", but not in a long time. Unrelated to this, I have a mild to moderate form of IBS so I have actually legitimately been saved by a diaper before to relieve IBS pain while driving or out in public.

And for what it's worth, I've been actively training, continuously, since Nov 14, 2020, making today 1 year and 16 days 24/7.

[Enthusi]

1 hour ago, jonbearab said:

Good catch. Yes I have BIID/BID. I've looped over and dwelled on becoming incontinent for many years, and not for lack of trying.

The struggle is real my friend.  Even though my bladder control is practically nonexistent, and even though I have sworn off holding it in ever again in an effort to ensure permanent loss of bladder control, I would STILL gladly pay a fortune for a surgery to render me permanently incontinent.   Oh well! One can dream! 

[Hannah YMS]

8 minutes ago, Enthusi said:

The struggle is real my friend.  Even though my bladder control is practically nonexistent, and even though I have sworn off holding it in ever again in an effort to ensure permanent loss of bladder control, I would STILL gladly pay a fortune for a surgery to render me permanently incontinent.   Oh well! One can dream! 

So you want complete total unawareness that you're voiding and haven't gotten there yet? Otherwise, I'd ask why you wanted surgery if you're already incontinent?

But yes, I'd get surgery if I could, but this is harder than normal without a medical need for it. Alas. 

[Enthusi]

1 hour ago, jonbearab said:

So you want complete total unawareness that you're voiding and haven't gotten there yet?

It’s more that I’m attracted to the finality that a surgery would provide.  Even though I’ve made incredible progress,  knowing that it is possible to re train gets me down. Though I’m reassured that it would be extremely difficult to near impossible to regain full control helps me feel a tad better.  

[Hannah YMS]

1 hour ago, Enthusi said:

It’s more that I’m attracted to the finality that a surgery would provide.  Even though I’ve made incredible progress,  knowing that it is possible to re train gets me down. Though I’m reassured that it would be extremely difficult to near impossible to regain full control helps me feel a tad better.  

I think that the longer you go on untraining your chances of continence recovery decreases. I guess I'd say you're perhaps close to the point of no return in terms of unrecoverable continence but past the point of no return 100% control and cruise range.

This hints majorly at a mathematical formula to describe such mechanism. 

[sparklezBear]

8 hours ago, jonbearab said:

So you want complete total unawareness that you're voiding and haven't gotten there yet?

On the topic of being able to void without awareness, I'm not sure this is achievable for me as a vijayjay owner. While awake, I feel mostly every trickle released, even if the release itself was not consciously started. It's a tricky feedback thing. Did I start the release, or was it automatic and therefore incontinence? It's a hard distinction 9 months in to 24/7.

 

[Hannah YMS]

10 minutes ago, sparklezBear said:

On the topic of being able to void without awareness, I'm not sure this is achievable for me as a vijayjay owner. While awake, I feel mostly every trickle released, even if the release itself was not consciously started. It's a tricky feedback thing. Did I start the release, or was it automatic and therefore incontinence? It's a hard distinction 9 months in to 24/7.

 

I have to agree as a non-vijayjay owner myself. Was it a legitimate trickle, or was it a post void dribble? First world problems. 

[Enthusi]

@sparklezBear @jonbearab  I agree that regardless of anatomy it’s going to be difficult to achieve total unawareness of voiding.   Even biological babies can sense when they wet. 
 

That said there are plenty of times when I’m distracted and didn’t pay attention to whether or not I wet.  Especially with a markedly reduced bladder capacity that makes accidents more frequent.   It’s similar to absentmindedly scratching an itch. You obviously feel it, but it’s a non event so you quickly forget.   It’s more likely to happen when I’m already wet.   I also dribble a tiny bit, which makes it hard to tell how wet I really am. 

Having to check your diaper to see how wet you are… it’s one of the best feelings in the world! 
 

 

[sparklezBear]

3 minutes ago, Enthusi said:

Having to check your diaper to see how wet you are… it’s one of the best feelings in the world! 

That's something I definitely have to do in the morning, and after work. Sometimes it's quiet a surprise.

[Mindylou]

On 12/1/2021 at 2:53 AM, sparklezBear said:

On the topic of being able to void without awareness, I'm not sure this is achievable for me as a vijayjay owner. While awake, I feel mostly every trickle released, even if the release itself was not consciously started. It's a tricky feedback thing. Did I start the release, or was it automatic and therefore incontinence? It's a hard distinction 9 months in to 24/7.

 

As a fellow vijayjay owner, and 24/7 wearer who's voluntarily untraining as well, I can relate to all the issues on this post. I've been 24/7 for almost 4 MN this time (7mn Total). I used to really focus on staying relaxed and not ever clenching or holding and get mad at myself when I caught myself doing it. Now I don't think about it as much, I enjoy waking up wet in the mornings, and know I am losing control because I wet during the daytime just by moving.. I don't know it comes out but it like squirts into my diaper when I move. It's totally awesome and I love the untraining journey. 

[Little Sherri]

I will be at at 3 year mark at the end of March. I still have to "permission" pretty much every release, other than the ones that occur when I'm sleeping, and even then, it's pretty rare for me not to wake up at least a bit, and wave at the guards to raise the gates, before drifting off. If I drink enough, I seem to be able to engage the autopilot function for a while during sleep, but 9 out of 10 doctors agree that drinking heavily is a poor long-term strategy for achieving anything, other than cirrhosis. 

What I have "achieved" is:

- not feeling when events end, once I start them. I have been surprised to find things still happening, some minutes later, via other stimuli, such as the swelling of my diaper or feeling the movement of fluid. It's a deliciously disconcerting sensation. 

- I've lost the ability to stop events, once they start. Again, it's deliciously disconcerting to will oneself to stop, and... nothing.

- very, very rarely, I've been surprised at how wet my diaper is when I'm inattentive, but more often, when I'm in attentive, I find that I'm holding it, instead. 

- I've proven to myself via experimentation that my cruising range is much, much shorter than it used to be, if I am holding it. I can become effectively incontinent if I deliberately hold it for a few hours - at some point the dam is going to burst. However, this is not a practical approach to "untraining". It involves a lot of discomfort and then a deluge. 

All told, "this" may be as far as I get; there haven't been many paradigm shifts lately. It would be great to be able to sometimes not have to have executive involvement with every event, but, it's also great to be able to wear diapers all the time, so maybe I should count my blessings.