Warning: Do Not Click If You Have Religious Views You Do Not Want Challenged

[wetman]

It's called a Christmas tree! We put it up for Christmas, which is Jesus birthday!

With no intention for unpleasantness, but: are you trolling?

[drynot]

Well...to be accurate...Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th and call it Christmas. However the date was completely ripped off from the Pagan ritual that celebrated the winter solstice.......which is on the 21st.....fun times!!

[KittenAB]

Well...to be accurate...Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th and call it Christmas. However the date was completely ripped off from the Pagan ritual that celebrated the winter solstice.......which is on the 21st.....fun times!!

It's actually even older than most people realize. Even the ancient Egyptians had a festival on Dec 21st. All winged angel forms ... come from the culture just prior to the ancient Egyptians (forgot their name again) which was a being that represented both death and birth. It was a starting over. This is why the christians chose that area of time for their birth point, it would contradict AND compliment other traditions, depending on how it was spun by the preacher. If they were smart, then Christmas would have been the resurrection and Easter (spring solstice, festival of birth) would have been the birth. But they had to contradict the competing religions just enough to make opposition look like they were "doing it wrong" and strengthen the blind following.

Now, because of their failure at eradicating all knowledge, Christmas is a purely secular holiday in all countries that celebrate it, even in the US many religious people do not actually acknowledge it as a religious holiday. It's only the pundits and loud mouthed bible thumpers that insist it is "their" holiday.

[drynot]

Yea...Christmas to me has become far less about the 'Birth' of Christ and more about getting together with friends and family. I would much rather hang out with family than in some stuffy old church anyway which, I feel, that if there was a God...He/She/It would much rather I do anyway.....

[Sojourner]

What a lame topic. Two sides trying to convert one another...no wonder there's such fighting. And that's exactly what's happening here.

[drynot]

What a lame topic. Two sides trying to convert one another...no wonder there's such fighting. And that's exactly what's happening here.

Whoo...did you actually read all the posts? There certainly are strong arguments on both sides, which really isn't all that suprising given such a polarizing topic. However it is somewhat postivie that we can have a marginally reasonable discourse about it...don't you think?

[KittenAB]

What a lame topic. Two sides trying to convert one another...no wonder there's such fighting. And that's exactly what's happening here.

I have yet to see anyone try to "convert" someone to anything. Perhaps you have a religious belief you wish to share, or wish to point to another post's flaws and challenge them? If so, be our guest, that was the entire point to this thread. However, there are way more than two sides, even in this thread alone there are at least several that I have noticed, probably more than that which I have not noticed. Your view of there being a dichotomy appears to be a projection or a troll comment. I invite you to join the discussion, however complaining about what is said here, unless a justified within the rules of the forums, is pretty much betraying a desire to incite anger and not contribute.

As drynot pointed out, you should read the posts in here.

[ForbiddenFruit]

Well, I'm well aware it's way past due (hell, Kitten doesn't even come here any more IIRC) but I've recently had a thought on the bible and those that throw it about.

I've been up and down the faith rollercoaster a few times (lost my faith at, say...fourteen or so like many an embittered teen, got it back at fifteen / sixteen, recently been questioning and now left it to rot entirely) but the reason I've abandoned it now is entirely down to the way it's wielded. If I cannot trust those who endorse it, and especially its own hierarchy, then how can I trust it?

I used to have that stance of 'believe what you wish of it, if it comforts you' but because I now think critically of...more or less everything, I know that's the equivalent of pulling a cap over your ears and yodelling 'la la la la la la...' What's my word besides that of the Church? Fuck-all.

On one level, there's the entirety of Creationism. I cannot bring myself to believe that because I analyse and think with reason. There isn't much basis to think Creationism can be classed as a science (it can't. Fact.) or taught in science classes (it shouldn't. Fact.) But that isn't my main issue.

Speaking mainly of Christianity, the bible's always had bits chopped and selected to promote one view. The one with the king's approval is canonised and copied. What's the bible but a selection of short stories? Add to this mutations over time. "Thou shalt not kill?" Where's this from? Don't you mean "Thou shalt not kill other jews [and then "or unless under orders from your superior" or something to that effect]" ?

Difference is, now that we have the world brain (the internet) in force, now it can't be cut and sliced without word spreading like wildfire. So parts are left in, and again, we've got a short story collection with different authors and contradictions. Obviously, we've got the loving New Testament God, and Badass Grandpa from the Old Testament. Two eras, two writings, no continuity.

I cannot help but despair when people applaud troglodytes like Santorum or other Conservatives who use the bible as a political tool or support the joining of Church and state. Particular case in point: as a basis for anti-gay positions. Oh joy, Leviticus. Let's have a gander, shall we? My my my, interesting stuff...so, have you had a shrimp or prawn or crab or lobster or oyster or winkle? Down to hell you go. Did you confess about that bacon sandwich last week? No? Sorry, gotta see the red man downstairs. Take off that leather jacket now, or you're damned. Hey, is that a tattoo? Oh, you better believe that's an eternity burnin'.

It's not follow the bible. It's 'follow the bible, well, the parts we want you to. That we've altered. The ones we find convenient. For our agenda. For now'. What rational basis have you to keep this part of Leviticus but toss the rest aside? The same that made it acceptable to have sex on a Wednesday, Sunday, with anyone but a married partner, naked, or enjoy it? The same that's fine with having a wank? The same that marked women as property? If you can tell people they're going to hell for being themselves, what's wrong with saying molluscs are the path to damnation? Same book, same section, same lunatic, you just don't like it. Get rid of Leviticus? Oh, but why keep the rest? Sanctioned by the same people, held onto for so long.

Add to that the sheer ludicrousness of the concept of a God that would send a caring, compassionate, selfless person to eternal damnation for having preferences to the same sex, something beyond their control, or simply being unlucky enough to be born in a different part of the world. See now? Not only is it not a source of comfort but it's highly illogical. It's all there to indoctrinate, control and spread a set of antiquated ideas bent on preserving one particular class.

[Bettypooh]

When you nicely point out where the same Book shows the speaker to be as bad as you by it's own words, they revert to their only defense- flaming you with shouted names and more lies And they cannot understand why more and more people want nothing to do with them and their religion

"Stupid is as stupid does"- now there's something to believe in!

Bettypooh

[Diapered Jason]

Yep, the Bible, the Qur'an, and any other significantly distributed religious texts can be potent tools of manipulation, and unfortunately, we are seeing this play out in areas such as politics with devastating effect, especially in the last decade, while the church has been doing it for years.

I recently learned while the number of people affiliated with a religion is at an all time low, the number of people who believe in some form of god is at an all time high.

[ForbiddenFruit]

I recently learned while the number of people affiliated with a religion is at an all time low, the number of people who believe in some form of god is at an all time high.

As in, those who consider themselves 'spiritual'? I would like that. It's very much a case of 'I want to believe', and though being an 'independent theist' like Bettypooh is tempting, I can't agree with picking and choosing what I wish to believe because for me it flies in the face of my integrity. It seems like scrutinising and thinking rationally will forever deny me the luxury of faith.

[Bettypooh]

As in, those who consider themselves 'spiritual'? I would like that. It's very much a case of 'I want to believe', and though being an 'independent theist' like Bettypooh is tempting, I can't agree with picking and choosing what I wish to believe because for me it flies in the face of my integrity. It seems like scrutinising and thinking rationally will forever deny me the luxury of faith.

But it gives you the truth, which is a far more powerful faith than those who have faith and remain blind to anything else. I am religious- but in my own way. I have beliefs- but they are my own and nobody else has influenced them lately. I do not 'pick and choose' but instead try to see everything- even when it is distasteful.

There is a lot more comfort in blind faith which is why so many choose it, but if they are wrong it's going to hurt a lot more in the end. There is little comfort in seeking the truth, save for the knowledge that you will much more likely be right in the end, and even if not you really tried when the others didn't By going after your faith individually you can only be misled by yourself, and if you truly seek those answers in your heart you will not be misleading yourself- and you will accept the answers you find even when you don't like them. The hardest part of being like this is seeing people you care about being misled down the wrong path and knowing it is their choice to do that. So be it, for in the end I cannot answer for any but me and by then there will be answers to all questions, thus relegating faith to it's true value of nothing but a temporary comfort that has ending. That is why I do not seek faith- I want something more enduring

I like the way Rastafarians approach the faith issue. They do not believe anything- they know it. I may not agree with their religion but they have the right approach toward religion and a far better set of human beliefs than many other organized religions of today There is something to learn from everyone when you seek the truth and in learning, some true comfort too- the kind which will endure

Bettypooh

[sarah_ab]

i'm an ancient alien believer myself.

[Diapered Jason]

You know, not making a choice is still a choice. In fact, some say that is choosing Freewill. For me, my choice is clear. No faith, but I have been given no reason to believe in any religious faith.

[KittenAB]

You know, not making a choice is still a choice. In fact, some say that is choosing Freewill. For me, my choice is clear. No faith, but I have been given no reason to believe in any religious faith.

Well, not believing is not making a choice technically. One way to look at it is "keeping your options open until something viable comes along." Unlike Pascal's Wager, the atheist wager is actually logical. Since each religion has the same chances of being correct and most don't have belief as being a requirement for a reward, it's safer just to be a good person and not belief in any of them. Most of the gods do not care if you worship them at all, just a few of the modern ones do, the modern ones do not even deserve worship anyway.

It's one of the points often missed by the organized religion followers, there are many many many gods, and many religions, if there is a chance one is correct then there is an equal chance any are correct since they all have the exact same amount of evidence supporting them. It's like roulette, choosing one number you have a huge chance of losing and only a 1 in 100 chance of winning, but choosing a column (a way of just being good or bad) you have a 50% chance of being correct, even if the pay off is a bit less. So, why waste you life away worshiping something that has a very slim chance of being correct anyway?

[ForbiddenFruit]

Was just doing some board browsing via the search function ('Westboro' if you're curious) and apologies for necromancy, but had a mix of laughter and horror when I stumbled across this: