An Open Letter To The Community

[Mischa]

I first came to this site some four years ago as a lurking minor. Some of you whom I have become close to know that soon after lurking on the boards, a certain member's signature caught my eye. After a while I couldn't remember the name of the site, but the screenname of the user was burned into my memory. I considered her--and still do consider her--one of the bravest people around for not giving a care in the world to what people think of her lifestyle.

A few months ago, I got the chance to actually begin talking to her over the internet. It was one of--if not the single most awesome experiences that I have had. I truly value her as a person, and I greatly value her friendship--a friendship being built on mutual support and a desire to see each other succeed. We've come to each other with the troubles in our lives

She confessed to me that she had a desire to leave DD a while ago in protest to the treatment of a friend who was grieving. Furthermore, the events surrounding a certain thread on the boards has caused her great emotional distress, it has made her feel as if the traumatic experiences in her life are something she needs to tolerate people making light of.

This reason is why I feel it is necessary for me to leave as well, as a show of support to my friend. She knows I will always be there for her off these boards. When she has the acceptance here that she deserves, I will come back as well.

[DailyDi]

Perhaps you two should contact me to let me know what is going on, so we can fix it?

[Bettypooh]

Although I am unaware of who you are referring to (as I am generally dim,) I have great respect for your sentiments. Should you not wish to confide to whom you are referring to, I shall understand and respect the solidarity that you show. Although I can guess as to whom you are referring, I do not make assumptions.

As well I have not had a great opportunity to converse with you, however, what little I have done so, I have admired your sentiments as a genuine and nice character.

I wish both you and your friend the very best in life, and should either of you return, I shall be waiting, with open and welcoming arms.

I'm with Abrera- we're all going to miss you till you return I hate to say this, but you've got to be a bit thick-skinned in online forums This isn't real life and the only power it has over you is the power you allow it to have

Some people here matter to me and some don't You're one that matters

Bettypooh

[Snugglebug]

Mischa, I didn't get a chance to know you or your friend very well. I've been finding I'm not getting to know a great number of people before they leave, for reasons related to yours. I understand and respect your decision, though it sorrows me.

I think this site is losing something quite precious. Here there WAS quite a number of people from a rich variety of the different corners of life, a treasure of fascinating personalities who found a sanctuary here. However, one-by-one, I see these wonderful, sensitive spirits drifting away, never to be heard from again, because of the insistence of a few that their 'right' to amuse themselves trumps the emotional well-being of those who, for whatever reason (and there are many to be found here), cannot readily weather the cruelty of others.

This place is losing its magic to a simple lack of human respect.

Mischa, I hope you and the others find a new home, someplace where you can open up and be yourselves without worry. If you do, please let me know: I find the constant need to wear armour wearisome. In the meantime, here I will stand, alone if I must, exercising my 'freedom of speech' to champion the basic concepts of respect and responsibility.

To everyone else, I would like to re-introduce a few simple phrases:

"I am sorry."

"I did not intend to upset you."

"I will try not to do that again."

While they are not that complex, they reflect the necessary understanding that with freedom of speech, comes the acknowledgement that we WILL make mistakes and our words WILL wound others needlessly. More importantly, they acknowledge our responsibility to make ammends for those mistakes and learn from them.

[PArms]

To everyone else, I would like to re-introduce a few simple phrases:

"I am sorry."

"I did not intend to upset you."

"I will try not to do that again."

Please include one of these phrases when apologizing:

"How can I make it up to you?"

"What can I do to fix the problem?"

"If it helps, I can (insert problem solver)."

Mischa, we will miss you. Please visit us soon.

[sarah_ab]

I'm with bettypooh...

words on a screen can only hurt you as much as you let them.

This is a public bulletin board, much like life, where people are free to say what they want, even if it isn't always what someone else wants to hear.

I wish you and your friend well, and hope you will come back someday.

[SilverIce]

Well, ill be one of those to say... "I have no idea who you are." Now, that said i wish no harm on anybody and therefore im sorry to hear X individual is sad about Y cause but i do hope that afew bad apples wont ruin an entire community for yea.

Anyways, also to the posts above, i concur with the opinions above as well. If your looking for sensativity and are emotionally weak... due to X circomstances. Your best bet is to take care where you go as generally speaking... due to my experience within expecailly the fetish community... and the amount of sexual horassment, pervesion, witch hunting, and drama that goes on. I do believe you take your chances.

Your best bet: Be friends with your friends, if theres people you dont get along with you dont have to talk with them as we are all adults here and we can handle our selves. If it becomes an issue, contact a moderator, aka guy who posted above.

Goodluck on your adventures!

Ice.

[Horndog]

I'm probably going to get down-voted for this post, but hear me out.

As someone who has done work manning crisis center hotlines in the past, I am aware of the traumatic experiences that many people go through, but as compassionate as I can be when it comes to understanding what others are going through, I can't be trained to understand and accept everyone's specific circumstances. People are not omniscient beings so they are naturally unable to be understanding of someone random person's personal issues. Quite frankly, I think it's selfish to presume that people have that ability to understand.

In this case, a known member of the AB/DL community made a joke that several people deemed to be inappropriate because of its controversial subject matter. In my opinion, it was a joke that shouldn't have been made, but it was made. There were people who were so offended that they kept posting about how offended they were and how the AB/DL community has turned into a place where people are no longer supportive or understanding of each other... all over one joke. The argument was blown out of proportion and the consequence of that argument was this "open letter to the community," which doesn't exactly enlighten members about the person who was offended and their personal history.

Like most members, I'm extremely supportive of people who underwent traumatic experiences and I can definitely appreciate the fact that people consider the AB/DL lifestyle as therapeutic. However, this is the Internet. Things will be said that you may not like. Not everyone will be in lockstep with your capacity of understanding. Not everyone will understand your personal situation unless you spend some time to educate people about it. If you have a problem with someone who says something that is insensitive, it's your prerogative to e-mail that person and say, "I was hurt by the comments that you made," and you engage in a conversation with them. Because this is the Internet, you're dealing with many members who are anonymous and they don't know you personally. You shouldn't take anonymous banter personally. If you do, then you should refrain from participating in any web communities, not just AB/DL ones. The Internet is a cruel, dark place that does not guarantee the support group mentality. Fortunately, DD consists of a lot of mature members who are more understanding than most out there. But even DD will have posts that you may take exception to. That's life. It's up to you to deal with the matter so threads like these don't have to be made.

[curiositykilledthecat]

Simply put if people actually apologized, no problems would have occurred. I get when you don't know that something might be a psychological trigger tom someone, however once that is made clear by the individual, a simple "my bad" would suffice. Now I support the "get over yourself" mantra however in a case where someone is making fun of child abuse it's not so much a "willing choice" to be offended, but more of a "thanks for triggering an episode" moment. Simply put, know your audience before posting a comment. If I want to read a bunch of incoherent crying and insulting I'll just log onto World of Warcraft and read the trade chat channel. At least on here I would anticipate a freedom of expression along with some common courtesy. My other gripe is that we are so hell bent on disabling the stigma of being labeled as child predators and then someone decides to make jokes about it. It just seems rather counter productive to our cause.

All in all everyone has settled down and things seem to be under control, simply remember that an "oops, my bad" goes a long way.

[babykeiff]

Mischa,

for clarity, I will refer the the other member as Jane, and the perpetrator as Jack

while I completely agree with your point, I disagree with your said action. You leaving to support Jane is a kind and considerate action, but Jane leaving due to a disagreement seems silly to me.

What it seems is that Jane is running away from a problem, and letting Jack stay here and enjoy what Jane is missing. That, in itself is silly and wrong. This site is built on the strength and support we have for each other, and if Jane needs help from me or others, email / PM or post and I will only be too glad to help. Jane is more than welcome here, and I say this from the heart, Jane is loved by all here, and her not being here will be sorely missed.

Mischa I can hazard a guess to the cause of this, and the Jacks sense of humour may, at best, be wierd, no malice was intended. If you ask Jack I am sure he regrets the post, and will try to make this up to Jane if she would only let him.

Jane, please don't leave, we will miss you as the light of this site.

[Guest]

on your post

on quoting Rush in your sig

[curiositykilledthecat]

Mischa,

for clarity, I will refer the the other member as Jane, and the perpetrator as Jack

while I completely agree with your point, I disagree with your said action. You leaving to support Jane is a kind and considerate action, but Jane leaving due to a disagreement seems silly to me.

What it seems is that Jane is running away from a problem, and letting Jack stay here and enjoy what Jane is missing. That, in itself is silly and wrong. This site is built on the strength and support we have for each other, and if Jane needs help from me or others, email / PM or post and I will only be too glad to help. Jane is more than welcome here, and I say this from the heart, Jane is loved by all here, and her not being here will be sorely missed.

Mischa I can hazard a guess to the cause of this, and the Jacks sense of humour may, at best, be wierd, no malice was intended. If you ask Jack I am sure he regrets the post, and will try to make this up to Jane if she would only let him.

Jane, please don't leave, we will miss you as the light of this site.

I'm just going to add that "Jane" isn't leaving, between the recent incident and an older one involving a moderator banning an account and then blatantly lieing about their reasons, caused "Jane" to reconsider her desire to be a part of this community. These course of events haven't really changed my perspective on anything as I was taught a long time ago that it is mentally unhealthy to carry someone else's offenses. Only by being supportive and neutral can a positive result be made. The offender meant nothing by it, however as is standard human decency, when you make fun of something traumatic and are called out on it, an apology is due. The dust has settled and the events are over, everyone should simply move on a little more cautious and respectful of the other members on here.

Relax, everyone and mischa, I need my post whoring partner so get your @$$ back here.

[Snugglebug]

In an ideal world, everybody would be capable of managing their own reactions to disturbing things. Of course, in an ideal world, those disturbing things would be far less frequently encountered.

It seems to me that far too many people here are willing to blame the victim for the crime. It's his fault for being too sensitive. She shouldn't go on the net if she can't handle the things being said there. It's okay to offend someone who's different from us because they're going to get abuse from someone else anyway.

Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees something fundamentally WRONG with that!

For some folk, this may be just a 'fetish site', but for many here, who face a number of social and psychological challenges, this is one of the few places they can come for fellowship and support. But now we're telling them they can't be here because they're not 'tough enough'? That they must walk in fear of their so-called peers? A lot of people don't have a choice on how they react. It's not their f**king fault if they have an anger issue, or PTSD, or anxiety disorders, or are socially maladjusted. They didn't ASK for that! They didn't CHOOSE it! And, quite often, they don't have a CHOICE on how to react. On the other hand, we ALL have the choice to take RESPONSIBILITY for things we say and do. And if we hurt or bother someone, whether unintentionally or not, we need to own that action and react in a constructive fashion, not sit their defending our so-called 'freedom of speech'.

To paraphrase Will Smith from his song "Lost and Found" in regards to Freedom of Speech: sure, you're free to do it, but did you need to do it?

It really disturbs me to see that, on SEVERAL occasions here, a person raises an objection to something said here and, instead of being responded to in a responsible way, is shouted down for being 'too sensitive' or some other nonsense excuse. There's so many people willing to defend someone's 'right' to hurt or offend someone else, but so few willing to step up for the victims. F**k! No wonder so many people are leaving! No wonder many people are posting less frequently and less variety! No wonder so many people are more and more guarded!

What's the point of a social site if people are too afraid to be social anymore?

[square_duck]

I'm amused that vics are supposed to be "tough" on an adult BABY site. LOL at the absurdity.

Actually, the term "adult baby" is an oxymoron....but notice that the term "adult" comes first...

[Frink]

Bye!

[sarah_ab]

are people still on about this?

[Horndog]

I'm going to post here in this thread one last time because there are some things that I'd like to clarify. I'm going to address Snugglebug's post because I can see it becoming flamebait and I want to extinguish the flames before they spread.

It seems to me that far too many people here are willing to blame the victim for the crime. It's his fault for being too sensitive. She shouldn't go on the net if she can't handle the things being said there. It's okay to offend someone who's different from us because they're going to get abuse from someone else anyway.

I've pretty much read everyone's response to this thread and I have not seen one person "blame the victim for the crime." I don't know where you got that from. I haven't seen anyone say that it was "okay" to offend someone who is different because "they're going to get abuse from someone else anyway." I don't know where you got that from either. I find your argument to be profoundly silly because people don't even know -- from the OP -- who the "victim" is and the crime that the victim endured. It seems like you're making a mountain out of a molehill here -- and no, I'm not minimizing the victim's circumstances here.

For some folk, this may be just a 'fetish site', but for many here, who face a number of social and psychological challenges, this is one of the few places they can come for fellowship and support. But now we're telling them they can't be here because they're not 'tough enough'? That they must walk in fear of their so-called peers? A lot of people don't have a choice on how they react. It's not their f**king fault if they have an anger issue, or PTSD, or anxiety disorders, or are socially maladjusted. They didn't ASK for that! They didn't CHOOSE it! And, quite often, they don't have a CHOICE on how to react. On the other hand, we ALL have the choice to take RESPONSIBILITY for things we say and do. And if we hurt or bother someone, whether unintentionally or not, we need to own that action and react in a constructive fashion, not sit their defending our so-called 'freedom of speech'.

Nobody is saying that this "victim" can't be here because they're "not tough enough."

The premise is very simple. Pick any web community and you will have a variety of different personalities and opinions. There is an extremely high probability that someone will say something you don't like. You will likely come across someone or something that deeply offends you, but you need to deal with the fact that this is the Internet. It's the wild west. It is solely up to the person -- who is offended -- to deal with the situation appropriately. By default, people will not understand why you're taking exception to certain comments unless you explain why you're having that problem with a cool head. Most of the time, however, people tend to either ignore the comments and move on or take these comments with a grain of salt. That's what I'd do no matter what circumstances I personally have.

If it was me got offended by what was posted, I wouldn't show people that I'm offended. I would show people that I am above those comments. Snugglebug, you compared my posts (defending the person making the joke) -- in the past -- to adding salt to the wound, but showing the world that you're offended adds more salt to the wound than anything because you're constantly putting your guard up and you're reminded of the traumatic experiences that you're trying to avoid by joining this site. In reality, you don't have to put your guard up. You don't even have to dignify the offensive comments with a response. And you have to realize that not everyone will be as understanding or as compassionate as you are. Not everyone is going to know what you're going through or what others go through simply because they never experienced that kind of hardship. That lack of understanding is not their fault.

So please, just move on.

That's my final two cents on the subject.

[cute_baby_charlotte]

Okay I feel the need to say a few things here.

I may not have posted anything on this but I have read the thread where the situation in question did happen, so I am informed on it.

I would like to point out that everyone who says "What people say on the internet can only hurt you if you let it" is dead wrong.

Like what has been said before, some people do not have a choice as to how they react to certain things. People have pasts and mental disabilities and so on which makes it very difficult for them to be able to control the way they think or react to something that's said on the internet. And you can say "Toughen up" and "Don't be so sensitive" all you want, but it doesn't work that way for everyone.

I have a friend with some pretty severe mental disabilities. About a year ago, she got into an incredibly heated argument with someone over the internet. She literally almost died from what was said because of her mental disabilities. It stressed her out so much taht she kept having episodes and doing dangerous things because she wasn't in her right mind. Not only this, but she endured massive amounts of physical pain as well due to the fact that... well I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was something to do with erratic waves in her brains. Do you think if she had a choice to not react that way, she would choose that?

Note: The person wasn't at all suicidal and in fact is usually incredibly happy about the state of her life, despite her various medical conditions.

What if the incident in question had gone as far as to cause the victim's death? Would you still be defending the person who made the offensive joke, saying, "Well they shouldn't have been so sensitive..."

Also, was an apology ever made? Because I'm sure that people would be more willing to resolve this situation had the person who made the joke apologised to the victim. If an apology was made then that's good, because although the situation shouldn't have happened in the first place, the person who made the joke at least realises that what they said was wrong. If not, then the only thing that I can see that meaning is that the person who made the joke condones being totally insensitive to everyone else in life, including their history and/or mental disabilities, and make controversial jokes and comments even if it one day results in the death of a person.

Like what has been said before, some people can NOT control the way they react. However, people CAN control what they say... I believe that we all, as adults, have a responsibility to not say things that will cause this kind of reaction in other people, and it is never the victim's responsibility to react a certain way, particularly when the circumsances make it that they cannot help the way they react. This will help make sure that nothing harmful is said in the first place, so we can avoid situations like this. It's called being considerate and having respect for people.

[Bettypooh]

Okay I feel the need to say a few things here.

I may not have posted anything on this but I have read the thread where the situation in question did happen, so I am informed on it.

I would like to point out that everyone who says "What people say on the internet can only hurt you if you let it" is dead wrong.

Like what has been said before, some people do not have a choice as to how they react to certain things. People have pasts and mental disabilities and so on which makes it very difficult for them to be able to control the way they think or react to something that's said on the internet. And you can say "Toughen up" and "Don't be so sensitive" all you want, but it doesn't work that way for everyone.

As much as I hate to drag this unhappy topic out, it needs to be said that you're wrong on this part Show me any forum on the internet where there is no bashing- I've been online a decade and haven't seen one yet. That doesn't make bashing right, it just means that it is this way and if you're going to be a part of a forum it's going to happen to you and everyone else at some point.

If you can't deal with something then you don't go there. If you go there and get hurt it happened because you went there- nobody made you do it but you. Nobody made anyone read this post but themselves. If you read along and see that you're becoming offended, why aren't you stopping? If you knew you were going to be offended why did you even start? The ultimate responsibility of being offended lies with the offended, not the offender True, offense shouldn't be given but this is the real world and it happens here. You have three choices: 1- Toughen up and learn to deal with it. 2- Don't let it happen in the first place by avoiding the situation (ie don't go to online forums). 3- Go where you shouldn't and become offended. Don't expect any sympathy when you intentionally harm yourself, you're not likely to get it

I have a friend with some pretty severe mental disabilities. About a year ago, she got into an incredibly heated argument with someone over the internet. She literally almost died from what was said because of her mental disabilities. It stressed her out so much that she kept having episodes and doing dangerous things because she wasn't in her right mind. Not only this, but she endured massive amounts of physical pain as well due to the fact that... well I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was something to do with erratic waves in her brains. Do you think if she had a choice to not react that way, she would choose that?

Note: The person wasn't at all suicidal and in fact is usually incredibly happy about the state of her life, despite her various medical conditions.

But she did choose that- you said so in the first part: "....she got into an incredibly heated argument with someone...." It takes two to argue; when you walk away the argument ends. If you don't walk away then you wanted to argue- nobody held a gun to your head and made you do it. If you know that continuing the argument is going to hurt you, it's your fault as much as anyone's if you don't stop right there and walk away. Whatever happens after you don't walk away was caused by your choice to not end it when you could. I'm truly sorry that the person you mention went through the trauma, but they did it to themselves. This was the hardest lesson I had to learn when I was in therapy, for I am much like the person you speak of when it comes to letting things affect me adversely. Learning that I could no longer allow things to go that far no matter how badly I wanted them to took me six months to get over. Learning that lesson is why I'm alive today because I was suicidal and that was the cause

What if the incident in question had gone as far as to cause the victim's death? Would you still be defending the person who made the offensive joke, saying, "Well they shouldn't have been so sensitive..."

Also, was an apology ever made? Because I'm sure that people would be more willing to resolve this situation had the person who made the joke apologised to the victim. If an apology was made then that's good, because although the situation shouldn't have happened in the first place, the person who made the joke at least realises that what they said was wrong. If not, then the only thing that I can see that meaning is that the person who made the joke condones being totally insensitive to everyone else in life, including their history and/or mental disabilities, and make controversial jokes and comments even if it one day results in the death of a person.

Like what has been said before, some people can NOT control the way they react. However, people CAN control what they say... I believe that we all, as adults, have a responsibility to not say things that will cause this kind of reaction in other people, and it is never the victim's responsibility to react a certain way, particularly when the circumsances make it that they cannot help the way they react. This will help make sure that nothing harmful is said in the first place, so we can avoid situations like this. It's called being considerate and having respect for people.

I try to be considerate because that is how I want to be treated by others- and because that is the right way to be But I'm not a mind reader, so if someone is becoming offended it's their responsibility to say something about it. That doesn't compel me to change my approach; it only denotes that I am now the one responsible for any further offense that occurs. In some cases I want to offend and anger someone so that they lose control and let the truth come out Then the card turns again and it becomes their responsibility to deal with the now-evident truth I've done that on DD twice- one learned from it and became a better person and one didn't, Sometimes that's the only way to get the message through to someone So be it, for I cannot make anyone do anything they don't want to do. Conversely nobody can make me do anything I don't want to do. I cannot give offense to someone who doesn't take it, and I cannot be offended if I don't accept it.

And if the person should become so affected that they end their life over it? Sad indeed, and it points out that sometimes things go deeper than we thought they did. I am reminded of Jeremy Blake who was teased by his classmates until he couldn't take it anymore and shot himself in front of the class. They intended to offend him and did so, not understanding how much it hurt him, but they did not pull the trigger-Jeremy did that As a child who was forced to go to school with these people, Jeremy had little choice of whether he would be exposed to the offense. It was the adults responsibility to take care of Jeremy and they failed. But Jeremy killed himself, he was the one responsible for doing that.

I was teased mercilessly about being a pantswetter growing up. I knew I couldn't help it but nobody believed me. It hurt me so deeply that I spent half of my live trying to avoid reality which has essentially ruined my future. The ones who picked on me are responsible for the pain, but the drugs and alcohol were my choice, and my ruined future is the result of the substances I willingly took. That's what happens when you don't deal with reality, and each of us has to find a way to deal with our own reality and accept that doing it that way is a choice- our choice- and that while others may have pushed us to going there, how we deal with it is our choice alone. If we choose to become hurt we will become hurt. If we choose to not become hurt we may still get hurt some but not nearly as much.

Whew, that ran a lot longer than I wanted it to but it really needed to be said. There are many things in life beyond our control and the only thing we can do about them is to choose how we will handle them, accepting the responsibility for those choices and the aftermath those choices bring us. It's never anybody elses fault any more than it is your own.

Bettypooh

[Pudding]

So much drama over a joke in questionable taste ~ get over it guys; the "white knight" routine is soo boring.

[Snugglebug]

Nobody is saying that this "victim" can't be here because they're "not tough enough."

That's the message I got from several comments made by many here.

By default, people will not understand why you're taking exception to certain comments unless you explain why you're having that problem with a cool head. Most of the time, however, people tend to either ignore the comments and move on or take these comments with a grain of salt. That's what I'd do no matter what circumstances I personally have.

This is just it: on numerous occasions, it WAS explained that a statement was offensive or problematic. And the response? The offense was defended, by multiple people. All of this debate could have been neatly avoided if someone had chosen to say "Hey, I'm sorry; I didn't mean to upset you. I'll try not to do that again."

If it was me got offended by what was posted, I wouldn't show people that I'm offended. I would show people that I am above those comments. Snugglebug, you compared my posts (defending the person making the joke) -- in the past -- to adding salt to the wound, but showing the world that you're offended adds more salt to the wound than anything because you're constantly putting your guard up and you're reminded of the traumatic experiences that you're trying to avoid by joining this site. In reality, you don't have to put your guard up. You don't even have to dignify the offensive comments with a response.

This isn't about me; this is about the people who are being needlessly hurt, the people who may not be as equiped to deal with conflict as the rest of us. I defend them because I have a profound belief that, so long as it harms none, everyone has a right to happiness.

And you have to realize that not everyone will be as understanding or as compassionate as you are. Not everyone is going to know what you're going through or what others go through simply because they never experienced that kind of hardship. That lack of understanding is not their fault.

I understand fully well that not everyone shares my level of understanding and compassion. I only ask that people's concerns and objections are respected instead of summarily dismissed or decried. This is not a big ask and should be one any mature adult is capable of. If it appears that I am becoming increasingly vocal, it is because attempts to deal a situation in a reasonable and rational fashion have been met with stubborn insistence that one person's fun takes precedence over another person's wellbeing.

However, you are correct: not everyone has experienced many of the things that allow them to develop a reasonable level of empathy for others. Please allow me to explain what I believe to a simple method of handling such a situation in the future.

Let me give you two scenarios:

Scenario 1:

Person A says something that upsets Person B.

Person B: Hey, that really bothers me.

Person A: It's just a joke; lighten up!

Person C: This is the internet: if you can't handle offensive remarks, don't come here.

Person D: Yeah, Person A has a right to make that kind of comment; stop impinging on his freedom of speech!

Scenario 2:

Person A says something that upsets Person B.

Person B: Hey, that really bothers me.

Person A: Oh, sorry mate; I didn't mean to upset you. I'll try not to say something like that again.

Person B: Fair enough. Thank you for your understanding.

Of these two scenarios, which ended most quickly? Which ended with fewer people bent out of shape? Which of these scenarios do you think someone such as myself will feel compelled to step into?

So please, just move on.

That's my final two cents on the subject.

Fair enough. So long as I'm not given reason to involve myself in another conflict, this will be the last I say on the topic as well.

[curiositykilledthecat]

okay people enough, let the thread die now the point had been made.