Does Society Force Kids To Grow Up?

[Nat]

Polly, since your child is finally showing interest in potty training, what are you going to do about it? You have faked them having bladder issues so they can stay in diapers and you won't be charged with abuse or neglect. Society forces kids out of diapers or else the parents get charged for neglect unless the child has medical problems or the parents have gone to the doctor because they child was refusing to get potty trained and the parents could never get them to quit going in their pants. So what are you going to do about it now? Can a child go from an over active bladder to a normal bladder? That's why I don't find lying a good idea because it can come back to you such as what if the kids want to quit wearing in the future, how are you going to explain it to your neighbors and to the school? Can a child go from an over active bladder to a normal bladder?

Also what got you into that kind of parenting? Were you raised that way or did you hate being punished when you were a child or being manipulated or controlled? I find your method interesting. I grew up with empty threats which I took all literal, being spanked and having things taken from me so I grew up hitting kids and taking things from them making things off limits to my brothers because I thought that's how you act. I thought when you get mad you hit. When people don't listen to you, you hit. But I didn't hit at school because hitting wasn't allowed there so I only did it at home. I also grew up getting grounded. But is it legal to walk naked in front of your kids? Wouldn't that be sexual harassment, especially having them seeing you in diapers? I've been told it be considered sexual exposure and abuse. I would hate to get in trouble with the law for that and have my own kid get taken and I get charged with abuse. That be bad.

[ArtemisEnterri]

Polly, since your child is finally showing interest in potty training, what are you going to do about it? You have faked them having bladder issues so they can stay in diapers and you won't be charged with abuse or neglect. Society forces kids out of diapers or else the parents get charged for neglect unless the child has medical problems or the parents have gone to the doctor because they child was refusing to get potty trained and the parents could never get them to quit going in their pants. So what are you going to do about it now? Can a child go from an over active bladder to a normal bladder? That's why I don't find lying a good idea because it can come back to you such as what if the kids want to quit wearing in the future, how are you going to explain it to your neighbors and to the school? Can a child go from an over active bladder to a normal bladder?

Also what got you into that kind of parenting? Were you raised that way or did you hate being punished when you were a child or being manipulated or controlled? I find your method interesting. I grew up with empty threats which I took all literal, being spanked and having things taken from me so I grew up hitting kids and taking things from them making things off limits to my brothers because I thought that's how you act. I thought when you get mad you hit. When people don't listen to you, you hit. But I didn't hit at school because hitting wasn't allowed there so I only did it at home. I also grew up getting grounded. But is it legal to walk naked in front of your kids? Wouldn't that be sexual harassment, especially having them seeing you in diapers? I've been told it be considered sexual exposure and abuse. I would hate to get in trouble with the law for that and have my own kid get taken and I get charged with abuse. That be bad.

Spokane Girl, that whole reply just goes back to your original question of "Does Society Force Kids to Grow Up?'

It is SOCIETY that says diapers after infant/toddler age is bad.

It is SOCIETY that says adults behaving in a childish manner is bad.

It is SOCIETY that is the cause of US feeling the need to hide our diapers in the shadows because they don't understand us and accuse us of things we are not guilty of.

Need I say more?

I read some prophet words recently: "Those who follow the crowd always get lost in it." Just because SOCIETY says something, doesn't mean that they are correct about it.

[PampersPete]

DL88,you forgot an important man in your wiki,wiki,witch hunt King Shrub

[Yvhuce]

There is nothing wrong with being an adult and having responsibilities but still nurturing your inner child. So long as you can still be responsible and serious when need be, I do not see a problem with it.

Exactly. The point I was getting at, though, is that if left unchecked, it's highly unlikely that they'd develop the capacity for self control and moderation.

Gee, corporate CEO's, Presidents, VP's, etc do the EXACT same thing. They get the big pay but spend 95+% of their day either in their office or in meetings TALKING about what's happening, but not really DOING ANY of the work... They are sponging off the work of all the actually working employees.

Actually, they spend their time in meetings because IF THEY NEED TO CHANGE SOMETHING TO MAKE THE BUSINESS RUN WELL, THEY NEED TO KNOW. Not only that, there is a lot of other work they do and the CEO's and such did a shitload of work to make the company what it is and therefore have earned the money by building the company.

A CEO or president that can take a company from 3 million profit a year to a billion deservers more pay than the office workers, security guards, and such.

Bullshit. They can do the same damn job for $8 an hour. The more actual hard, backbreaking, life-stealing, soul-crushing work someone does, the more they should be paid. Let the CEOs and presidents and office workers keep their job perks, but slash their pay and give it to the real workers, who bleed for their money. After all, people raise such a stink about the "equal pay for equal work" issue... More pay for more work is simply an extension of this. If you disagree with that, then you're an enemy of the working man...

[DL88]

DL88,you forgot an important man in your wiki,wiki,witch hunt King Shrub

Ya but most people forget that during his administration we actually saw vast financial growth until the last half year. This schlub has hurt business much much more. Don't you just love the propoganda commercials he's put out there too!

[ArtemisEnterri]

Bullshit. They can do the same damn job for $8 an hour. The more actual hard, backbreaking, life-stealing, soul-crushing work someone does, the more they should be paid. Let the CEOs and presidents and office workers keep their job perks, but slash their pay and give it to the real workers, who bleed for their money. After all, people raise such a stink about the "equal pay for equal work" issue... More pay for more work is simply an extension of this. If you disagree with that, then you're an enemy of the working man...

Thanks, that is EXACTLY my thought too. What gives any VP, President, CEO, Manager, etc the RIGHT to take all the credit for the work other people did? If they want to take credit for something happening, they can get their a$$ down on the production floor and get their hands dirty just like the rest of the crew!

DL88,you forgot an important man in your wiki,wiki,witch hunt King Shrub

Are you forgetting Mister "Slick Willy" Clinton who destroyed the morale of our troops by slashing military budgets by more than 50% and actually closing bases and dismantling/selling off equipment/vehicles/etc? It was that stupidity by Clinton that led to the deaths of thousands of soldiers because they did not have proper equipment available at the time it was most needed.

And the whole bank thing was a Clinton deal as well, just because the collapse happened with Bush behind the desk does NOT mean that Bush caused it to happen.

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

I'm going to disect your post and break everything down little by little and answer each of your questions.

Polly, since your child is finally showing interest in potty training, what are you going to do about it? You have faked them having bladder issues so they can stay in diapers and you won't be charged with abuse or neglect. Society forces kids out of diapers or else the parents get charged for neglect unless the child has medical problems or the parents have gone to the doctor because they child was refusing to get potty trained and the parents could never get them to quit going in their pants. So what are you going to do about it now? Can a child go from an over active bladder to a normal bladder? That's why I don't find lying a good idea because it can come back to you such as what if the kids want to quit wearing in the future, how are you going to explain it to your neighbors and to the school? Can a child go from an over active bladder to a normal bladder?

The doctor never performed tests. We did the diary, and he took my word for it. It is not unheard of. I could always say that their bodies were growing much faster than their bladders, and things are finally catching up. That is the problem with society. They FORCE kids to do things, and I do not do that. Let anyone take away my kids, and my ass would be all over the news. I'd have a changed world when I'm done.

I know about ten people who grew up in foster care. They were brutally abused, subjected to experimental psychological drugs, moved from home to home, and they never could be children because they were too busy trying to survive. They do much much much much worse in those foster homes than in my own. Oh, yes. I remember one of my friends making the abuse he was subject to a game. He told me that if he survived each incident and did not shed a tear, he could give himself points. It worked for him, but it was so sad that it had to be done that way. Now, thankfully, he is functioning well,, has his own place, and has his own family, but the scars will never ever heal. So, what am I doing so wrong letting my kids be themselves. I'm not a conformist, and I am always going against the grain. I don't give a damn how society does things or how they think. My mama always said to me "What is popular is not always right. What is right isn't always popular." The reason we have the liberties and freedoms that we do is because a brave soul stept forward with his courage, went against the grain, and faught for change. Some not only lost their families but have also lost their lives. Look through our history books. It is those who are not conformist and who are not popular who have made real progress and real change. Look at our inventors. Look at some of our leaders. These were ostrisized for thinking differently.

Also what got you into that kind of parenting? Were you raised that way or did you hate being punished when you were a child or being manipulated or controlled? I find your method interesting. I grew up with empty threats which I took all literal, being spanked and having things taken from me so I grew up hitting kids and taking things from them making things off limits to my brothers because I thought that's how you act. I thought when you get mad you hit. When people don't listen to you, you hit. But I didn't hit at school because hitting wasn't allowed there so I only did it at home. I also grew up getting grounded. But is it legal to walk naked in front of your kids? Wouldn't that be sexual harassment, especially having them seeing you in diapers? I've been told it be considered sexual exposure and abuse. I would hate to get in trouble with the law for that and have my own kid get taken and I get charged with abuse. That be bad.

I was raised the same way i'm raising my children. My mom is just as liberal. I was never ever punished, and i was never rewarded. I did what ought to be done, and I received unconditional love regardless. I guess this is why I never had to go through what most adolescence did because I was not controled. I was free to be an individual. I attribute my parents' rearing of me to the comfort and security I have in myself. Hell, i"m twenty-eight, and my mom and dad still take me to the park. Right now, I'm staying over their house for the weekend and possibly part of the week to give my husband a break from caregiving, and my mom has been a whole lot of fun. Yesterday, she allowed me to run gimpily through the sprinklers after she mowed the grass. I had a blast. I was laughing with delight. I even screamed some. Tomorrow, I get to go to Kings Dominion all day. And, the cool think is because i have a disability--MS--I do not have to wait in any lines. I love that, and so do my kid siblings because so long as the entire group is with me, they do not have to wait. Today is not over yet, so I might ask my mom to get me ice cream.

I love my parents. They have always let me be me. I want to do the same for my children.

I'm glad you asked about my lifestyle. I know it is so out of the norm: nonetheless, i do not mind sharing it. See, your childhood is a perfect example as to why more parents need to do things this way. i'm sure that there would be a lot less rebellion.

[Nat]

How does MS keep you from waiting in lines? You have your stroller to sit in. (I've read your previous posts)

Actually I was told by my old therapist when I was 17, lot of kids know they aren't supposed to spank other kids and take things away and do punishments. I have no idea how they know that on their own without being told only parents can do that to their kids. Just like toddlers know they are supposed to go in the potty chair when they are being toilet trained despite that they have gone in their diapers their whole lives and then their parents decide to change it. I wonder how they don't even get confused about that because of the change. My mom tried toilet training me when I was two and ended up putting me back in diapers because I just didn't get I was supposed to go in my potty chair. Then when I was three I finally figured out diapers were for babies so I stopped wearing them. I had a baby brother and I saw a mess he made in his diapers and it gave me the right message. Who knows how much longer I would have been in diapers if my parents didn't have anymore kids. My mom said I would have figured it out eventually.

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

How does MS keep you from waiting in lines? You have your stroller to sit in. (I've read your previous posts)

You're right, but one can become impatient, nonetheless. I can't stand sitting still for what seems like forever. Though amusement parks have to abide by the laws that treat the disabled people in a certain way, fairs and carnibles do not, and it is so torturous to sit there in a stroller and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait for what seems like centuries. It is worse, IMO, when you are sitting rather than standing because at least when you are standing, you can move around a bit. Sometimes, I do get out of the stroller to stand for a bit if the wait is too long, since i'm able to stand and walk for short distances. Now, I know why babies get ansy when sitting in a stroller for a long time. When there is some movement involved, such as when on a stroll, I'm enjoying myself. But, when the line moves ever so slowly to the point of it feeling like I'm going less than two miles an hour and barely moving, I hate it. Understand now? I hope I've cleared it up. Waiting is waiting, even if you have the so-called luxury of sitting in strollers. I like to hurry up and have fun! I don't like a sore butt from sitting for an eternity.

Actually I was told by my old therapist when I was 17, lot of kids know they aren't supposed to spank other kids and take things away and do punishments. I have no idea how they know that on their own without being told only parents can do that to their kids. Just like toddlers know they are supposed to go in the potty chair when they are being toilet trained despite that they have gone in their diapers their whole lives and then their parents decide to change it. I wonder how they don't even get confused about that because of the change. My mom tried toilet training me when I was two and ended up putting me back in diapers because I just didn't get I was supposed to go in my potty chair. Then when I was three I finally figured out diapers were for babies so I stopped wearing them. I had a baby brother and I saw a mess he made in his diapers and it gave me the right message. Who knows how much longer I would have been in diapers if my parents didn't have anymore kids. My mom said I would have figured it out eventually.

But, I think that a lot of tots DO become confused, hence the reason for potty training resistance. Some resist because they are reluctant to make the change or angry at their parents for traumatically ripping away from them what was familiar. Frankly, I'd be pissed if someone decided to change things up on me in an instance without much explnation. Tots are not given the chance to slowly get used to a new change. A lot of them are thrown into it. It makes me cry. Potty training is so traumatic, and it is not helped when parents scold and spank their tots for something they have done all their lives beforehand. Talk about confusion. One minute they are love, another they are hated! The sad thing is that the tot doesn't understand why he is being treated like this.

Honestly, if there was a cure for my incontinence, I'm not sure I'd WANT to be potty trained. I'm actually kind of scared because I don't want to mess up and make mistakes. I've been in diapers for twenty-eight years, and I feel like using a toilet would be terrifying. Forgive me if it sounds stupid, but my condition has actually helped me to sympathize with how hard it really is for toddlers. I know that if I could be cured, I don't think I ever will though, I would know better and know where I was supposed to use the bathroom. Nonetheless, I'd be scared of the transition, though, I badly do want to be continent. I'm an adult and I'm confused.

[Nat]

I hate it when people don't answer my questions.

[sarah_ab]

ok i've found that i have to ad disclaimers to my posts not.. this is not directed at any person or persons, and when i use the word YOU it is not a personal thing, but rather being used in the hypotehtical you form so if anyone takes offense to this post its so not my fault.

on the topic of 'potty training' as a child's brain develops they are able to become aware of the urge or feeling that preceeds the need to urinate or have a bowel movement. Even if you dont tell them the toilet is a choice,they will still become aware of this urge on their own. By keeping them in diapers you are only denying them a choice!!!

how about showing them how a toilet works, teaching them how to use it, and explaining to them the benefits of using atoilet, but then GIVE THEM THE CHOICE to wear or not, making sure they understand whichever they chose they are responsible for their own clean up..

by not giving ur child the choice you are not being liberal, but purposely hiding the benefits of toilet trianing and therefore are actually stifling them in their own ability to choose what they want when they want it.

[Nat]

I would show my child the potty and read them books about potty training and see if they want to do it. Maybe show them the underwear too and see if they want to wear them.

But I heard about kids quitting on their own. They decide one day they want to use the potty. Hopefully that will happen with my child and I won't have to worry about being a hypocrite.

[PampersPete]

Ya but most people forget that during his administration we actually saw vast financial growth until the last half year. This schlub has hurt business much much more. Don't you just love the propoganda commercials he's put out there too!

Not really sure by what you mean the last half a year. We've been in an economic sinkhole for longer than a year. I voted for Obama only because McCain was too fuckin' old and Palin too fuckin' stupid. Would I do it over? In a heartbeat only because the Republican't Party can't get it's head out of it's ass. I think next time around,I'm just going to say"Fuck it!"and vote Independent like I should've. I'm not diggin' on too many of Obama's policies. I think we as a country have been fucked up the ass with no Vaseline by too many of our"leaders" for far too long. VIVA LA REVOLUTION! And all that happy hippie bullshit And WATCH THIS! ALL 9 parts.

[DL88]

Lol Pete your posts always make me laugh! It is amazing just how much Liberals blame Bush, that is their new favorite past time. Obama still can't take responsibility for spending more money than every other US president combined. He has weakened this country so much it is just scary and people just keep going about with their ignorance. Amazing really how you'd rather vote for a half-black arab terrorist than an American who would keep the country protected, keep programs in the private sector, and would have gotten us out of this economic slump already. Obama has been able to raise unemployment to the highest levels since the depression in the 1930's. But yes, it is all Bush's fault right?

Take some responsibility.

[sarah_ab]

oh for the love of christ... how about this, DD makes a forum where people can spout all the racist comments they want.. then he makes another thread where people can scream about politicians all they want.. then maybe you guys can stop bringing it into every single friggin thread that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with politics or race...

really people, we all know by now about your political and racial views... how about saving it for threads actually ON that topic and stop bringing into every single post you make.

[ArtemisEnterri]

ok i've found that i have to ad disclaimers to my posts not.. this is not directed at any person or persons, and when i use the word YOU it is not a personal thing, but rather being used in the hypotehtical you form so if anyone takes offense to this post its so not my fault.

on the topic of 'potty training' as a child's brain develops they are able to become aware of the urge or feeling that preceeds the need to urinate or have a bowel movement. Even if you dont tell them the toilet is a choice,they will still become aware of this urge on their own. By keeping them in diapers you are only denying them a choice!!!

how about showing them how a toilet works, teaching them how to use it, and explaining to them the benefits of using a toilet, but then GIVE THEM THE CHOICE to wear or not, making sure they understand whichever they chose they are responsible for their own clean up..

by not giving ur child the choice you are not being liberal, but purposely hiding the benefits of toilet trianing and therefore are actually stifling them in their own ability to choose what they want when they want it.

Please enlighten the rest of us about these "benefits"...

From what I've seen, toilets are a nuisance: wasting water, requiring scrubbing when someone has soft poop, possible leaks if not installed right, easily clogging if someone uses too much toilet paper (or tries to flush something that isn't flushable).

Edit:

Oh yeah, I forgot the most important reason toilets are a nuisance: you have to stop whatever you are doing and waste precious time (which could be spent on more important tasks) locating the nearest toilet and then using it.

[babyvr6]

oh for the love of christ... how about this, DD makes a forum where people can spout all the racist comments they want.. then he makes another thread where people can scream about politicians all they want.. then maybe you guys can stop bringing it into every single friggin thread that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with politics or race...

really people, we all know by now about your political and racial views... how about saving it for threads actually ON that topic and stop bringing into every single post you make.

-Seconded-

[sarah_ab]

Please enlighten the rest of us about these "benefits"...

From what I've seen, toilets are a nuisance: wasting water, requiring scrubbing when someone has soft poop, possible leaks if not installed right, easily clogging if someone uses too much toilet paper (or tries to flush something that isn't flushable).

Edit:

Oh yeah, I forgot the most important reason toilets are a nuisance: you have to stop whatever you are doing and waste precious time (which could be spent on more important tasks) locating the nearest toilet and then using it.

cleaning fecal matter off your body takes a lot longer than dropping it into a toilet.

dropping fecal matter into a toilet means no risk of utis or staph infections from all the bacteria in said fecal matter

whether its right or not, people will avoid you if you smell like feces or urine

the cost of toilet paper is a lot cheaper than the cost of diapers for life

in the society we live in, and in fact in most cultures, soiling yourself is not acceptable behavior

the social stigma of being 15 and still in diapers, with no medical condition deeming the use of those diapers necessary, is pretty rough.

when you wet or mess a diaper you have to spend far more time cleaning yourself up than if you just sat on a toilet, then wiped then were done with it. so all that precious time you saved not going to the toilet, you have just wasted spending time wiping all that fecal matter and urine off your body.

Many toilet papers are biodegradable and made with recycled materials, and much of the water used in toilets can be used as reclaimed water for other projects - how many disposable diapers will end up in a landfill each year, plus wipes

just because an adult enjoys wearing diapers, or decides that diapers aremore beneficial for them in their given circumstance does not mean that adult's child is going to see the same benefits if they were given a choice.

[FretaBWet]

Thanks, that is EXACTLY my thought too. What gives any VP, President, CEO, Manager, etc the RIGHT to take all the credit for the work other people did? If they want to take credit for something happening, they can get their a$$ down on the production floor and get their hands dirty just like the rest of the crew!

Are you forgetting Mister "Slick Willy" Clinton who destroyed the morale of our troops by slashing military budgets by more than 50% and actually closing bases and dismantling/selling off equipment/vehicles/etc? It was that stupidity by Clinton that led to the deaths of thousands of soldiers because they did not have proper equipment available at the time it was most needed.

And the whole bank thing was a Clinton deal as well, just because the collapse happened with Bush behind the desk does NOT mean that Bush caused it to happen.

Your post might fool some sheep into following you down the yellow brick road but it's still complete BS. Our military was completely based on our cold war needs and after the fall of the Soviet Union those needs changed. Congress passed laws starting during the Reagan administration to close bases and lower the number of armed forces on active duty. This was a sensible change because the tax money we saved with a trimmed military budget could be better spent elsewhere or lowered taxes. Slick Willy as you call him made an intelligent choice after the terrorist embassy bombings in Africa to send in a flight of cruise missiles to Afghanistan blowing up a whole bunch of Taliban terrorist training camps and the people in them. Sorta like swatting a fly that's biting your ass and annoying you.

If there were thousands of soldiers who died because of lack of equipment as you say then it is surely Bush's fault not Clinton's. Clinton chose to surgically strike people responsible for terrorism against the US. Bush CHOSE and LIED to the American people in order to start Two wars which have cost us BILLIONS of dollars and the meter is still running. Our military was unprepared to fight two wars like this simultaneously but really what sane person in this country would have ever planned on the assumption that we would have a complete idiot as President.

As for Clinton being responsible for our current financial dilemma I would refer you to the previous paragraph on the BILLIONS of dollars we are spending on two wars.

This is a link to a Historical Review of Base Closings 1988 - 1995 http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/97-305.pdf

Hugs,

Freta

[ArtemisEnterri]

Your post might fool some sheep into following you down the yellow brick road but it's still complete BS. Our military was completely based on our cold war needs and after the fall of the Soviet Union those needs changed. Congress passed laws starting during the Reagan administration to close bases and lower the number of armed forces on active duty. This was a sensible change because the tax money we saved with a trimmed military budget could be better spent elsewhere or lowered taxes. Slick Willy as you call him made an intelligent choice after the terrorist embassy bombings in Africa to send in a flight of cruise missiles to Afghanistan blowing up a whole bunch of Taliban terrorist training camps and the people in them. Sorta like swatting a fly that's biting your ass and annoying you.

If there were thousands of soldiers who died because of lack of equipment as you say then it is surely Bush's fault not Clinton's. Clinton chose to surgically strike people responsible for terrorism against the US. Bush CHOSE and LIED to the American people in order to start Two wars which have cost us BILLIONS of dollars and the meter is still running. Our military was unprepared to fight two wars like this simultaneously but really what sane person in this country would have ever planned on the assumption that we would have a complete idiot as President.

As for Clinton being responsible for our current financial dilemma I would refer you to the previous paragraph on the BILLIONS of dollars we are spending on two wars.

This is a link to a Historical Review of Base Closings 1988 - 1995 http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/97-305.pdf

Hugs,

Freta

Gee, how can it be Bush's fault that the soldiers didn't have proper funding or equipment when the equipment was SOLD OFF DURING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION? During the Clinton years, lifetime career soldiers were "put out to pasture" because Clinton didn't think we needed a military anymore (some of those soldiers were barely in their 30's and 40's with many years of service they could have given.

What lie did Bush tell? If you are referring to the statement of "Iraq has WMD's", NEWSFLASH: CLINTON MADE THE EXACT 100% WORD-FOR-WORD STATEMENT LESS THAN 2 YEARS PRIOR TO BUSH SAYING IT! How does the truth level of a statement change when the speaker of the statement changes?

And for the financial dilemma, you are WRONG AGAIN. The war has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the housing market and banking problems. Those problems were caused by laws pushed through Congress during Clinton's term which FORCED banks and mortgage companies to issue loans to people WHO HAD NO POSSIBILITY OF EVER PAYING THEM BACK because some stupid idiots in the government decided "Everyone deserves to own a home."

(BTW, Spokane Girl, I sincerely apologize for the politics discussion getting out of hand on your thread. I never expected my first comment comparing corporate CEO's to the "entitlement" generation as Pollyanna put it, would turn into this.)

[FretaBWet]

1. Sold off during Reagan and Clinton per Congress.

2. Downsizing made sense since much of the threat to our country's security was reduced.

3. Our preparedness was based on small actions around the world by a mobile force or one war at a time.

4. No one foresaw the threat from within of having an idiot in the white house.

5. You still don't address that it was Bush's choice to start 2 wars at once and where would we be financially if we had all the money wasted.

6. Show me the proof where Clinton made the same WMD claim 2 years earlier. Also, if he had made the same claim he didn't get us into a war over it which would make him smarter than Bush by a power of 100.

Hugs,

Freta

.

[ArtemisEnterri]

1. Sold off during Reagan and Clinton per Congress.

2. Downsizing made sense since much of the threat to our country's security was reduced.

3. Our preparedness was based on small actions around the world by a mobile force or one war at a time.

4. No one foresaw the threat from within of having an idiot in the white house.

5. You still don't address that it was Bush's choice to start 2 wars at once and where would we be financially if we had all the money wasted.

6. Show me the proof where Clinton made the same WMD claim 2 years earlier. Also, if he had made the same claim he didn't get us into a war over it which would make him smarter than Bush by a power of 100.

Hugs,

Freta

.

I'm just gonna end this by saying you sound like a Clinton-loving, Bush-hating Democrat, and I am done with this argument because you will not listen to what I am trying to tell you.

I hope you're happy with the current Democrat in office, because the things he is doing and is planning will turn America into a clone of the pre-collapse USSR (which everyone with at least half a brain understands is the stupidest thing in all history to do).

[babyvr6]

Boy Howdy! That's all on topic. A real treat to read. Honestly, can we get a mod in here to clean all this up.

"entitlement" generation as Pollyanna put it

Hey! I said it first!

[ArtemisEnterri]

Boy Howdy! That's all on topic. A real treat to read. Honestly, can we get a mod in here to clean all this up.

Hey! I said it first!

I stand corrected. Thanks.

[curiositykilledthecat]

lol this thread got rickrolled!