Does Society Force Kids To Grow Up?

[Nat]

Lets see, there are no Easter Egg hunts for adults or for teens, restaurants have kids menus for kids up to age 10 or 12, in London, they have playgrounds but they have age restrictions for who can play on it, in the malls here with play areas, they have age restrictions or height restrictions but there are no play areas for adults, McDonalds has age restrictions.

Anyone else think it seems like society forces kids to grow up because they cater the youngsters only? Because of that it made me not want to grow up when I was a kid because I was starting to get too old for things. But I learned how to keep myself busy in sit down restaurants, bring a book to read or a game to play, music to listen to. Problem solved. And who needs play areas? I can live without them. Problem solved. In London I would rather spend my time touring the city than wasting my time at a playground I waste some of my free time doing things. Problem solved.

Back in April I had fun doing Easter Egg hunting because a guy in the AB/DL community held one for us adults in a park. I haven't had that much fun in years. All grown ups need to do a hold a Easter Egg hunt for other adults, problem solved. Also adults can have them at their own house, problem solved.

[Yvhuce]

Society functions because of adults conforming to the adult mindset. If they let everyone remain in the "little kid" mindset, we'd all end up starving to death because no one's growing/processing/cooking the food.

[sarah_ab]

i think it is the other way around..

in todays society more and more i see 18 year olds who have never had a job, who dont know how to do their own laundry, to clean their own room,

more and more 20 somethings are still living with their parents not paying rent, some not even working, or only working part time (and i'm not talking about people who had good jobs but lost them because of the economy)

working at a college, all i see are people who are legally adults still being babied like they were little kids by their parents.

[babyvr6]

What she said.

I'll agree with you. Really it's a product of the "entitlement generation", as I like to call them . I began noticing this generation while I was literally in the 7th grade. It begins with kids born after January 1, 1990. These are the kids that were raised with participation awards and rubber playground "mulch". They are raised to believe that their half assed best is some how meaningful and equal to somebody else who is actually talented. These kid's were raised with knee pads and helmets, so they have no concept of accountability. how can you hold them accountable when they never learned that the wrong decision can hurt?

These kids are the product of time out stools and parenting by the book. But you can't just blame the parents, though, they are the root of it. Well still need to account for the generational learning that happens when you place several of them together and expect the true winners to continue to try, when little jimmy over there gets a ribbon as big as yours just for surviving, breathing and remaining in a vertical position. Oh and as god as my witness, little jimmy better get a ribbon or it'll be a class action law suit for discrimination against the survivally challenged.

Really though this is a real issue. This is the future of our nation, and the future of our species in general. It's topics like these that remind me of a short story I read in elementary school. It was titled Hasison Bergeron and I honestly believe this is the future of our nation. Link to story But all in al there is nothing to do but complain, and that brings us full circle to to the reason of this post; They suck.

[/RANT]

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

Oh, my goodness, I do notice it. Look at what doctors now encourage parents to do with their babies. It is now the cultural norm that bottles are taken away from babies as early as six months of age, and they are given those stupid sippy cups. They are rushed out of diapers much quicker than I remember when I was a child. Heck, when I was a kid, it seemed like parents were waiting until the child was two-and-a-half or three. Now, they are starting as early as one. Gosh! I can bet that with these ridiculous trends, there will be many more ab/dls to come in the near future. I don’t rush my kids to meet milestones or to grow up. I let it be their choice. My eight-year-old son, who is turning nine this August, still takes a bottle to bed with him. Sometimes, he drinks it in the house during the day. All I tell him is that he cannot have them in public. We made a compromise, so he could still have what he wants and not be made fun of. It is sad that society is not more enlightened.

As far as the kids menu is concerned, I will tell you a story of what happened to me when I requested it when I was on vacation. Normally, I never get a problem when I ask for the kids menu, since I’m very small and do not consume a lot. Those adult portions would kill me. Anyhow, I was on vacation with my friends, and I asked for the kids menu at this restaurant. The guy stated that I could not have it because I was too old. I told him that things should not go by age, they should go by size, and I could not eat those heaping sized adult portions. I explained that I did not want to pay for food I knew would go to waste—we did not have a fridge in our hotel room. He did not care. I was becoming even more flustered, and I was about to make things really ugly, since I should have the right to purchase what I want—my mother agreed with me when I told her the story—but my friend solved it very quickly.

He asked me what I wanted from the adult menu. I stated that I was not going to choose anything since it would go to waste, and I’d just sit and not eat at all. He then explained what he was doing. “I asked you what you wanted so I could order it for myself, and you’d just eat off my plate. This way, you’d not get a big plate of food that I know that you could never even get close to finishing.

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

I'll agree with you. Really it's a product of the "entitlement generation", as I like to call them . I began noticing this generation while I was literally in the 7th grade. It begins with kids born after January 1, 1990. These are the kids that were raised with participation awards and rubber playground "mulch". They are raised to believe that their half assed best is some how meaningful and equal to somebody else who is actually talented. These kid's were raised with knee pads and helmets, so they have no concept of accountability. how can you hold them accountable when they never learned that the wrong decision can hurt?

These kids are the product of time out stools and parenting by the book. But you can't just blame the parents, though, they are the root of it. Well still need to account for the generational learning that happens when you place several of them together and expect the true winners to continue to try, when little jimmy over there gets a ribbon as big as yours just for surviving, breathing and remaining in a vertical position. Oh and as god as my witness, little jimmy better get a ribbon or it'll be a class action law suit for discrimination against the survivally challenged.

Really though this is a real issue. This is the future of our nation, and the future of our species in general. It's topics like these that remind me of a short story I read in elementary school. It was titled Hasison Bergeron and I honestly believe this is the future of our nation. Link to story But all in al there is nothing to do but complain, and that brings us full circle to to the reason of this post; They suck.

[/RANT]

I agree with you about everything you said. It is so rediculous! It is this entitlement that will allow big brother to take over more and exert more control until everything is communist! See where it's going? You can be dumb as a bag of rocks and receive a reward that someone else worked hard to get. You can put forth a lot of effort; however, someone who did not work gets the same benefits. UG!

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

Society functions because of adults conforming to the adult mindset. If they let everyone remain in the "little kid" mindset, we'd all end up starving to death because no one's growing/processing/cooking the food.

There is nothing wrong with being an adult and having responsibilities but still nurturing your inner child. So long as you can still be responsible and serious when need be, I do not see a problem with it.

[Daddy_Dave]

Oh, my goodness, I do notice it. Look at what doctors now encourage parents to do with their babies. It is now the cultural norm that bottles are taken away from babies as early as six months of age, and they are given those stupid sippy cups. They are rushed out of diapers much quicker than I remember when I was a child. Heck, when I was a kid, it seemed like parents were waiting until the child was two-and-a-half or three. Now, they are starting as early as one. Gosh! I can bet that with these ridiculous trends, there will be many more ab/dls to come in the near future. I don’t rush my kids to meet milestones or to grow up. I let it be their choice. My eight-year-old son, who is turning nine this August, still takes a bottle to bed with him. Sometimes, he drinks it in the house during the day. All I tell him is that he cannot have them in public. We made a compromise, so he could still have what he wants and not be made fun of. It is sad that society is not more enlightened.

I think there is a slow trend going the other way. Instead of potty training kids early. Parents are waiting longer to do it. Why else would there be size 6 and 7 baby diapers? I can see the other side of it too. When kids start kindergarten. They are expected to already know things that was taught in kindergarten when I was in kindergarten. They know learn things in kindergarten things that I didn't learn until I was in 1st grade.

[Nat]

There has always been early potty training. Back when my parents were kids, kids were potty trained before age two. I also heard infant potty training was common and now everyone pretty much keeps their babies in diapers and have them use them and stay in their bodily waste. Today, kids are being potty trained later and later. There are bigger diapers now, either because kids are being potty trained late now or there are big babies.

[DL88]

We are turning into a cradle to grave society with a lack of accountability. People who have been posting on here are absolutely right in that most of the kids that have been born, especially after 1990, are just spoiled rotten little shits.

My kids will learn quickly that if they act up, the belt is waiting.

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

We are turning into a cradle to grave society with a lack of accountability. People who have been posting on here are absolutely right in that most of the kids that have been born, especially after 1990, are just spoiled rotten little shits.

My kids will learn quickly that if they act up, the belt is waiting.

I agree with you one hundred percent on this. The level of disrespect among these kids is overwhelming! Not only do they disrespect one another, the do the same to authority figures. Sometimes, they go as far as disrespecting the cops, thinking it is funny. The dirtest things come out of their mouths, and just think, they have so much crap that they did not have to work for. Like I said, its becoming like communism, as the one who never worked for a thing gets the same thing as someone who busted his butt real hard to get where he is now.

My oldest children were born in the year 2000, and thankfully, they do not behave in this way. They are very respectful and well behaved. While I, myself, personally do not at all believe in spanking, there are consequences for their actions, and they know that to get respect, they have to give it. We live in a consensual living household, where the children and adults are on the same level, and we try to reach compromises with one another as much as possible. For things that are unreasonable or dangerous that they can by no means do, we sit and talk it out, and we find other things to replace it. For more information on consensual living, check out http://www.consensual-living.com

When they do misbehave, they suffer natural consequences. For instance, when they act up while we are out, the outing is cut short, and we go home. If there is someone available to watch the child who acted up, we leave that child with that person, and we go back out and resume the outing. If one of the children leaves toys on the floor after being asked to put them away, he loses those toys. The children are very appreciative of what they have because they have to earn pretty much everything, unless we decide to give them gifts or treat them to something. We don't want them getting to spoiled. It seems to be working, as they are very responsible. We teach our children that you will get nothing unless you work for it and earn it. We do not give them pocket money when they ask. Pocket money has to be earned.

[diapernh]

I do think that society makes kids grow up too fast, but then again i think kids need to learn how to act. there is a time and place for having fun.

I think that parents being so self-absorbed with their own life and have no time for their kids.

When i was young, I had friends who i walked to their house, played during the day, their mom's did not work, neither did my mom. When my mom went to work, it was for my dad and great grandpa. My cousins lived right around the corner from mom's work (great grandpas old house) . My one aunt worked at a factory, where my other aunt was unemployed, and on assistance, she babysat my one cousin and had her 2 kids. In the summer we used to pile in her little chevette and head to the pool, and we would be there from noon to 5pm or whenever. My great grandpa used to come and get me and take me and my mom home. My aunt who was at work would come up to the pool after work, and I am certain my ccousins closed that pool down at night.

What I am saying is that my mom and aunts always found time to have fun. Now days parents cart the kids off to classes, activities, daycares. when they get off work, they are busy busy busy.

When I grew up I know many things at a young age

- When the phone rang, you shut up cause the adults were needing to talk on the phone

- I became a recptionist at a young age, way before the invention of the 2-line phone and PBX, I would often have to answer the phone at my dad's office when my mom was on grandpa's business line or vice versa. We never answered our house phone with "Hello" It was always answered as the business, as afterhours the office line was forwarded to the house.

- I knew not to act up when we went out to eat, as going out to eat was a treat.... my mom worked through the week, but still had time to put dinner on the table, and yeah, we ate at the kitchen table.

We had an Atari2600, but that was for rainy days, if the sun was out, we were to be outside doing something. Nothing beats a good ol'fashioned water fight with the neighbor kids

Now that I work in a call center, many things grate on my nerves, like kids screaming in the background while mom and dad are on the phone.

-------------

I know it does not explain my reason for diaper, but have you noticed that there are tons of younger AB's, many in their teens. could this be a sign of the inner child not getting his/hers time to be a kid and now does not want to be a grown-up. They had not had enough "little" time, and now need it.

[PampersPete]

I agree with you one hundred percent on this. The level of disrespect among these kids is overwhelming! Not only do they disrespect one another, the do the same to authority figures. Sometimes, they go as far as disrespecting the cops, thinking it is funny. The dirtest things come out of their mouths, and just think, they have so much crap that they did not have to work for. Like I said, its becoming like communism, as the one who never worked for a thing gets the same thing as someone who busted his butt real hard to get where he is now.

My oldest children were born in the year 2000, and thankfully, they do not behave in this way.

I couldn't help but laugh at this. No offense but the exact same thing could be said in the 60's,70's,80's and 90's. As for your children behaving,they're 9. Consider yourself lucky and wait to see what happens when they're older.

[ArtemisEnterri]

I agree with you about everything you said. It is so rediculous! It is this entitlement that will allow big brother to take over more and exert more control until everything is communist! See where it's going? You can be dumb as a bag of rocks and receive a reward that someone else worked hard to get. You can put forth a lot of effort; however, someone who did not work gets the same benefits. UG!

Gee, corporate CEO's, Presidents, VP's, etc do the EXACT same thing. They get the big pay but spend 95+% of their day either in their office or in meetings TALKING about what's happening, but not really DOING ANY of the work... They are sponging off the work of all the actually working employees.

[Nat]

I couldn't help but laugh at this. No offense but the exact same thing could be said in the 60's,70's,80's and 90's. As for your children behaving,they're 9. Consider yourself lucky and wait to see what happens when they're older.

They're going to go through a phase where they want more freedom and will argue with the parents for their rights and start talking like mini adults which parents call disrespect. Polly will just have to wait and see how her kids will go through their terrible teens. No wonder they call it adolescence.

Of course teens don't even realize they are being disrespectful because they are unaware of their tone.

[DL88]

Gee, corporate CEO's, Presidents, VP's, etc do the EXACT same thing. They get the big pay but spend 95+% of their day either in their office or in meetings TALKING about what's happening, but not really DOING ANY of the work... They are sponging off the work of all the actually working employees.

Actually, they spend their time in meetings because IF THEY NEED TO CHANGE SOMETHING TO MAKE THE BUSINESS RUN WELL, THEY NEED TO KNOW. Not only that, there is a lot of other work they do and the CEO's and such did a shitload of work to make the company what it is and therefore have earned the money by building the company.

A CEO or president that can take a company from 3 million profit a year to a billion deservers more pay than the office workers, security guards, and such.

[babykeiff]

It is true that society forces us to grow up faster than we choose, but this 'society' is driven by the selfish inconsiderate members. To try and elaborate, I will explain a scenario - within a neighbourhood, there are two families who give birth to males within 7 days of each other. One, Paul, is a happy child, loved by and taken care of by a doting full time mother and family surroundings. The second, Peter is taken care of by a mother who has taken time off work to have a child. By the time Peter is six months old, he is in day-care full time while his mother is working, while Paul is taken care by his natural mother. At 12 months old, Peter is force toilet trained by day care workers as they are tired of taking care of an incontinent infant, while Paul is still in diapers. The two children are best friends, but since Peter has already been forced to leave the trappings of childhood behind, he, unintentionally forces Paul to do the same.

This scenario, while not as extreme, is commonly repeated due to some one person’s laziness and ignorance of their actions. The constant drive instilled at this age that forces the child to abandon his childhood before he/she is ready causes that child to miss, and in some cases, try to relive his/her childhood.

In actually, we are all children, some of us forced to abandon our childhood before we were ready, some not, and have, although suppressed, the same natural infantile urges. These replay in adulthood as smoking - replay of infantile suckling urge, or inability to express our true feelings due to as children, it was thought as 'babyish' or 'infantile' to state our true opinion and feelings.

Macho and maturity, in current society has been directly linked, but one finds that in adulthood and in business, traits that were frowned at within the playground - dedication, respect, and honesty, a certain innocence, femininity etc are respected and sought for. Within a marriage etc., the 'soft' side and inner strength and ability to care and respect another - the traits that is needed when dealing with children, are those which hold and strengthen that union, and the macho, ignorant selfish and inconsiderate acts are those that fracture one.

Yes, society does try to force children to mature early, but it is also society that forces us to relearn the childish actions so we can survive within society. Assuming that society only hides the 'good' within us all is falling foul to the ignorant side of societies actions.

It is the ignorant that are led by the ignorant, but the educated or knowledgeable learn the immense benefit of self exploration, thinking and not behaving like lemmings. You have a mind, use it, and don't let its use be a new experience.

[ArtemisEnterri]

Actually, they spend their time in meetings because IF THEY NEED TO CHANGE SOMETHING TO MAKE THE BUSINESS RUN WELL, THEY NEED TO KNOW. Not only that, there is a lot of other work they do and the CEO's and such did a shitload of work to make the company what it is and therefore have earned the money by building the company.

A CEO or president that can take a company from 3 million profit a year to a billion deservers more pay than the office workers, security guards, and such.

But the CEO getting bonuses of MILLIONS while the actual workers maybe get a $100 or $1000 bonus is really out of sync with who really does the work.

What I've seen in the last 20+ years is that CEO's/Presidents love to take credit for the work done by the people below them, but the moment something goes sour, they say they had nothing to do with it (even if it was a mandated change from he/she passed during one of those meetings).

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

It is true that society forces us to grow up faster than we choose, but this 'society' is driven by the selfish inconsiderate members. To try and elaborate, I will explain a scenario - within a neighbourhood, there are two families who give birth to males within 7 days of each other. One, Paul, is a happy child, loved by and taken care of by a doting full time mother and family surroundings. The second, Peter is taken care of by a mother who has taken time off work to have a child. By the time Peter is six months old, he is in day-care full time while his mother is working, while Paul is taken care by his natural mother. At 12 months old, Peter is force toilet trained by day care workers as they are tired of taking care of an incontinent infant, while Paul is still in diapers. The two children are best friends, but since Peter has already been forced to leave the trappings of childhood behind, he, unintentionally forces Paul to do the same.

This scenario, while not as extreme, is commonly repeated due to some one person’s laziness and ignorance of their actions. The constant drive instilled at this age that forces the child to abandon his childhood before he/she is ready causes that child to miss, and in some cases, try to relive his/her childhood.

In actually, we are all children, some of us forced to abandon our childhood before we were ready, some not, and have, although suppressed, the same natural infantile urges. These replay in adulthood as smoking - replay of infantile suckling urge, or inability to express our true feelings due to as children, it was thought as 'babyish' or 'infantile' to state our true opinion and feelings.

Macho and maturity, in current society has been directly linked, but one finds that in adulthood and in business, traits that were frowned at within the playground - dedication, respect, and honesty, a certain innocence, femininity etc are respected and sought for. Within a marriage etc., the 'soft' side and inner strength and ability to care and respect another - the traits that is needed when dealing with children, are those which hold and strengthen that union, and the macho, ignorant selfish and inconsiderate acts are those that fracture one.

Yes, society does try to force children to mature early, but it is also society that forces us to relearn the childish actions so we can survive within society. Assuming that society only hides the 'good' within us all is falling foul to the ignorant side of societies actions.

It is the ignorant that are led by the ignorant, but the educated or knowledgeable learn the immense benefit of self exploration, thinking and not behaving like lemmings. You have a mind, use it, and don't let its use be a new experience.

You could not have said this better. This is what i mean, parents and daycare working, especially daycare workers, are forcing children to be toilet trained because they no longer want to deal with an incontinent infant. Yet, they do not want to do infant potty training, which would have them trained at that age. I, with my triplets, am doing infant potty training, and it is going well. HOwever, if they want to remain children, I do not care. I like to let my children be individuals.

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

They're going to go through a phase where they want more freedom and will argue with the parents for their rights and start talking like mini adults which parents call disrespect. Polly will just have to wait and see how her kids will go through their terrible teens. No wonder they call it adolescence.

Of course teens don't even realize they are being disrespectful because they are unaware of their tone.

Very true with what you said.

IN consensual living, children have the same rights as adults. If my son or daughter wanted to express themselves, there is no problem with that. It is encouraged in this house. I am very much against ignoring the rights and feelings of my children or any other child. Some call me too liberal, which I probably am, but I do not believe in getting upset at my child for expressing himself. Heck, I do not even believe in punishment at all. I only believe in natural consequences. That is probably why my children are so easygoing because we have no power struggles. I parent very different from the norm, as I do not even believe in controling my children. I do not believe in punishments, nor do I believe in rewards. I want to raise my children realistically as possible. Out in the world, people earn what they have, so my children do the same. Out in the world, natural consequences are enforced upon adults, so it should start at home. This is my opinion, of course. The definition of consensual living is below as follows:

Consensual living is a process, a philosophy, a mindset by which we seek to live in harmony with our families and community. It involves finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both parties are not only considered but addressed. Everyone’s wants and needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Conflicting wants or needs are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties.

Consensual Living is broad and far reaching. It influences the way we interact with everyone, from our immediate families to our community and the world at large. It is about assigning positive intent and looking for solutions. This can apply in so many arenas. It can change interactions, even if they are historically adversarial.

The source is from www.consensual-living.com

If consensual living is truly practiced, children will not have to argue with parents for their rights or "talk back" as some would call it. They already feel empowered and can sit down a discuss something and come to a fair agreement. It is a mindset of parenting that is definitely not the norm, and it is a lot to wrap ones head around. People sometimes think I'm crazy when I tell them I do not believe in controling my children, rewards, or punishments. I believe that children do not need to be controled or manipulated. They are humans with rights and those rights should be respected regardless of age.

In my humble opinion, when parents and children have a mutual trust, arguing is significantly less. Hell, my children did not want to be potty trained, so I did not press the issue. They still wear diapers now, though, my daughter is now showing an interest. My son, on the other hand, is not at all, and that is his choice. If it is not comfortable to my children, I do not feel that there is a need to force them. Both my children hate wearing clothing. so, we came to an agreement. Because it is not acceptable to go around naked outside, I tell them that the only time they have to put clothing on is when they are out. In the house, they can prance around as they wish. My philosophy is that if it is not illegal or disrespectful, there is no issue. If I feel that my children should act a certain way for the sake of respect, I model what I would like them to do. I just do not tell them. I do it also. So, we know it is both disrespectful and illegal to walk around nude in public, so we do not do that. That is an example of what I'm explaining here.

Here is what an article on the subject of consensual living has said about rewards and punishments, which I do not at all believe in:

Creating a Climate for Consensual Living

By Anna M. Brown

Consensual living is a process, a philosophy, a mindset by which we seek to live in harmony with our families and community. It involves finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both parties are not only considered but addressed. Everyone’s wants and needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Conflicting wants or needs are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties.

There are several key factors that help create an environment where consensual living can thrive. First, there needs to be a climate of respect and trust. Trust in a child’s ability to know their body and know their mind. Respect for their feelings as true, valid and important. If a child feels safe and comfortable they can explore their feelings and are more interested in understanding the feelings of those around them. There is no room for punishments or rewards in this environment. Punishments and rewards are really just tools of manipulation and when you are working together as a team for shared solutions there is no need to manipulate.

It is critical to have the belief that there really are solutions. In fact, the reality is that there are often many solutions. It is just a matter of hitting on the one that works for everyone. That process can be broken down into a few steps but will become more fluid and simple the more it is practiced.

The first step is to identify the underlying needs. Often there is a stated need or desire. When in conflict, it helps to go deeper. It may just be that the two stated needs are in conflict on the surface. When you get to the underlying needs, typically there are several ways they can be met. When you have the underlying needs on the table then new alternative solutions are more apparent.

For children and adults both, understanding how biological needs play into problem solving is critical as well. The short cut for this is the much talked about HALT theory – Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. When we are hungry or tired it is hard to see beyond our immediate needs, our head is not clear to be creative, this goes for kids too. When we are angry about something, that anger can become misdirected and interfere with communication. The same for loneliness, our behavior can really be a call for attention, which is often a need for engagement. So when we keep in mind that the underlying need may be biological it helps us find solutions more quickly. Sometimes stopping to address the biological need is all that is required to get us back on track.

At times, conflicts can be heated. There can be a lot of emotion behind requests. In those situations, it is often helpful to begin with some basic communication skills like validation and reflective listening. Both of these tools help us to explore the underlying needs. Validation is the simple process of acknowledging what someone is saying with no judgment, “you really wish that ...

[freswith]

Bear in mind the concept of "Neoteny"; in evolutionary terms this is the prolongation of a juvenile characteristic into adulthood to advantage. Many of out features originated in part from this, in particular our elongated childhood. Humans grow at much the same rate as other primates until about age 3, when the physical growth slows dramatically until puberty. This has given us longer to learn the necessary skills to survive. It is probably still happening today, although too slowly to perceive.

On the other hand improvements in nutrition and in disease control have meant that children mature physically some two or three years earlier than they did in the nineteenth century.

There are pressures from the older generation to keep children as children longer; to put it crudely, children are more biddable and less competition, but economically more dependent. There is a trend towards raising the age of leaving school, more further education, and children leaving home later (particularly in the UK where the cost of housing is prohibitively high).

With improvements in healthcare, and the accompanying longer life expectancy, there is less of a sense of urgency to grow up, and the irresponsible (in the nicest sense) joys of childhood can be extended for several years.

The Government likes overgrown children, too. They are more controllable ("biddable" - Yuck!), less sophisticated, and easier to regulate, hornswoggle and if need be to drive and panic. Take for example "Global Warming" and all the other boondoggles that always seem to result in fewer liberties and more taxes....

More of relevance to our own field, the diaper manufacturers have a plain vested interest in delaying toilet training. This can be done by propaganda; ("Doctor Grant Cadger, that famous paediatrician, has stated firmly that children are toilet-trained too early, causing them irreparable psychological damage, and this is supported by studies carried out by the distinguished Rentaboffin Research Institute. Children shoud not be forced to toilet train before their nth birthday!". This produces an easily calculated increase in sales. It compares with the real-nappy age when I believe children were trained much earlier; I was continent fecally by a year and fully continent by about 2.5 years. I hear of children today still in nappies at four or five.

It is curious why human children take all this time. The trite answer is that their nervous systems take that long to mature, but there isn't any given reason for this. The fact is that monkeys and apes, inherently nomadic and tree-dwelling, have no need to be continent either way - it just drops clear of their immediate environment. Primates are notoriously difficult to house-train. Continence is a feature of den-dwelling animals who need to keep their living conditions hygenic, and humans came late to that situation. This is why dogs and cats are relatively easy to housetrain in comparison with human infants.

Most people cannot remember anything from before their second birthdays. (As it happens I have a few earlier memories.) and are thus generally held to be unworried by the very undignified handling they so often receive as babies. If toilet training is delayed much beyond this time, then there will be more memories retained of diapers/nappies. Many of the member's experiences retailed elsewhere in this site include a long delay in getting dry. It could be that "normal" people simply have no memories at all of ever wearing diapers, while we have some vivid ones, as well as some from being put back into nappies at a later age. If the diaper manufacturers have their way, there should be many more AB/DLs coming along. With this in mind it would be interesting to compare the age profile of site members with the overall age profile of internet users to support or refute this hypothesis. My theory predicts that there are proportionately more diaper lovers under 30. Would anyone like to do the legwork on this?

[DL88]

But the CEO getting bonuses of MILLIONS while the actual workers maybe get a $100 or $1000 bonus is really out of sync with who really does the work.

What I've seen in the last 20+ years is that CEO's/Presidents love to take credit for the work done by the people below them, but the moment something goes sour, they say they had nothing to do with it (even if it was a mandated change from he/she passed during one of those meetings).

What you are missing here is that big companies have democratically elected commities, boards, and shareholders that vote on what that CEO/President's bonus will be. The person themself is not going into the company fund and saying, "I'm taking this money because I am entitled to it!" The CEO/President has nothing to do with the bonus they actually get. The majority of them work very hard and earn what they get, while there are some that are taking too much for doing nothing and running the business into the ground and giving the legit ones (CEO's) bad names.

The people you are referring to are people who ran business into the ground and screwed over all of the workers. You want people to blame? Ok here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Skilling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Lay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Fastow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Immelt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rigas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_D._Waksal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjay_Kumar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Kozlowski

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Ebbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calisto_Tanzi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_M._Scrushy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_G._Friehling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dodd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barny_Frank

[babykeiff]

freswith,

I can see your point that it is in the vested interested of diaper companies to keep children in diapers longer, and that in correlation to your belief that under 24 month old cannot remember their life in diapers, but to that I fervently disagree. At that age, and below, forcing someone to be responsible for their actions (toilet training etc) cause them to question their actions. This, in itself, has the direct consequence in forcing a child not to develop their own distinct personality, but rather to mimic their care-givers one since the child sees that the 'adults' actions are not questioned. This is a huge problem when the child is learning from an eighteen year old who is working in the job as a stepping stone to something else. The eighteen year olds selfishness and greed is easily absorbed by the child, and that the child grows up more inconsiderate and selfish than their care-giver.

When a child is not forced to train early, his/her individuality will thrive and the child will not have to worry about trying to suppress his/her infantile feelings in order to confirm. The child will train at his/her own pace - Pollyanna's twins are a perfect example of this - her daughter (of the twin) at age 8 is now showing interest in toilet training, while her son (of the same twin) currently shows no interest. Since they were not trained, they had, and still have, the opportunity to explore their individuality while still having the intimate love and caring of their parents. It was not tainted with disappointment for not controlling their bladder or bowels. At eight, these children have not had to deal with the stigma some 4-8 year olds have of bed wetting being infantile etc.

Medical Info: 70% of all males, and 55% of all females will sleep wet during puberty and have not got the capability to be fully toilet trained until post puberty. Letting her children stay in diapers removes the stigma completely, AND will mean that one of the triggers of AB/DL will be eliminated.

Pollyanna,

I admire and fully support your attitude towards your children in the way you work with them in an open and liberally equal way. Whether your are aware of this or not, you are teaching your children, and in my opinion, every parent should do the same, to think about their actions and how their actions, wants and beliefs effect the people around them.

Teaching someone to work to a compromise will make them a more considerate and tolerable person AND also teach their children and all subsequent generations. It is this effect - that what one teaches ones offspring either by example or neglect is what they will teach subsequent generations, and how the world will grow or be destroyed. The state of the world, and the level of equality and acceptance in the world today IS the direct result of our ancestors teaching and actions.

Our generations have learnt the cost of segregation and hatred towards a specific group of people due to the fact that we either lived through it OR that we learnt it via history. We do not wish our children to suffer the same fate as we have so we try and protect them from that. I think that the best protection is education – so our offspring and subsequent generations do not make the same mistakes as we have.

I believe that in this world, nothing can be won or lost, and the only battle one has is with themselves. Competition against others has no real benefit. It only has one winner, but many losers, which equates to all entrants bar one in a competition will be disappointed, AND competitions teach us the reverse of tolerance, acceptance and caring for our fellow human being.

If you look around your street, somebody is always trying to be better than someone else. Why - for some sense of self gratitude - and this competitive nature will be enforced on children - first to be walking, first to be eating solid food or some other milestone, and the 'looser' - the parent will feel that their child is underperforming and force their child to do something that he/she is not ready for or able to do. This is CRUEL and INHUMANE, and it is caused by a competition, pride and selfishness.

If you, and everyone does not compete, there will be no glory or pride in coming first, and the years of dedication and work to out perform another human being will be dedicated in helping our fellow man instead of trying to put him/her down.

- my history -

younger, I spent time as a voluntary care-giver to various groups of children - and it was extremely easy, just by dealing with the children and their attitudes, to read how they were treated and their family history. The children I was dealing with aged from 3 years to 18 years. The only circumstance that caused the greatest effect on the children was the bond that the child had with their parents. Day-care children had little or no bond to their parents other than for financial gain, while non-day-care children had an inbuilt respect for all others. No other circumstance changed their inter-relationship skills be they from a rich home, poor home, single, both parents, skin colour, etc. The controlling factor is the choice the parents made - whether to continue working for the parents own benefit, OR to stay at home to raise their own child.

This day-care generation, now classified as latchkey children, are the ones, statistically, most likely to be involved in altercations with the legal system. This is due to the fact that the basic respect to their fellow human beings was never learnt.

The film 'Idiocracy’ is a fictional example of how stupidity, greed and ignorance can be compounded to lower the average intelligence of the human race. We, should fight to stop this before that fictional plot line becomes our legacy to the world - which is the only thing that really scares me.

[babyvr6]

^DL88^-Please take it to pm's to keep this on topic and stop using wiki to back up your claims. Not trying to argue or start a fight, but I have a hard time believing ANYTHING on wiki. *Remember kids, Wki is the place where the overwhelming stupidity crushes the truth with shear force*

[two cents]I would have to agree that a lot of the the problem come's from dumping responsibility onto the kids at an early age. Parents don't raise kids anymore, they dump their responsibility on to others. But as a person who watches this happen first hand with my best friend and his family, I've come to realize that that raising a kid and providing for a kid are two different and conflicting things(holy run-on sentence batman!). It can be almost impossible to be married, gainfully employed, and still raise children in this society.[/two cents]

And, I would like to add that Pollyanna has changed my whole concept of child raising. She is doing what I would be doing if I had a kid right now. I really am inpressed with her methods and will be employing them when I get a wee little one of my own. Thanks Polly for all the posts and keep up the good work. I've enjoyed reading them and look forward to reading more in the future.

[DL88]

^DL88^-Please take it to pm's to keep this on topic and stop using wiki to back up your claims. Not trying to argue or start a fight, but I have a hard time believing ANYTHING on wiki. *Remember kids, Wki is the place where the overwhelming stupidity crushes the truth with shear force*

First off, why don't you kiss my ass as this has absolutely nothing to do with you; don't call me out and tell me to take it to pm's when I am have a chill conversation to someone about this when he is the one who pointed out something in a post from a person who was in agreement with my post. Second off, kiss my ass on the other cheek as I am not backing up any claim using wiki to try to make it fact, if you have read any of my political posts you would realize what I use to back up statements of facts. These consist of .org, .gov, and .edu ONLY unless I am posting something I do not need proven and it just has to do with news reports. Wiki is a place where stupidity rules? I posted the pages of people who gained wealth by illegal terms of business practice. You can research their names anywhere and get the same results.

Go pointlessly flame someone else babyvr6, because that is exactly what you just tried to do to me.

[EDIT]: P.S. If you think these aren't factual, try widening your radius of attention because everybody has heard of atleast 2 people on that list.