Kif

Dangit, you're reminding me this thread exists Enthusi ? Uhm yeah, saw this thread mid-Sept and thought "Welp, guess I'll come back in a year". Yet, here I am three weeks later having very unexpectedly started experiencing for the past week what could be described as between stages 3 and 4; I've got roughly 4-8 minutes that I can hold it before I completely lose control. Fortunately haven't had accidents since I'm super regular and can test-to-failure at home in the mornings...but still, if I were caught outdoors unpadded with an upset tummy, it wouldn't end well. Btw it really is like Kali described with the balloon metaphor; e.g. that whereas before it was pinching the neck with my thumb and forefinger, now it is like pulling the neck with both hands (letting air slowly and obnoxiously squeak out). I can feel the effort, and am putting my entire body and mind to it, but it comes out anyway (and at that point, I give up). For what it's worth, I had little-to-no-notice. Only things I could note were increased urgency leading up to it, and then a few weeks before now noticing some small accidents while exercising (squats etc). I was pretty laid back about just going, like Enthusi was, but didn't see it progress very much in a similar timeframe. So, having untrained and retrained to bedwetting at least twice so far, it especially blindsided me. To the question posed here regarding extent/order of urinary control... While I did notice urinary issues a few weeks before I experienced my FI issues, whether I actually lost urinary control is debatable. I can hold on for at least an hour (I suspect longer, but haven't confirmed it to failure yet) so I'm not terribly worried about suddenly losing control unexpectedly. That said, I cannot stop the flow once it starts; at best I can slow it, and then bring it to a pause for a second before I lose control. Also, there are at this point lots of triggers throughout the day that nearly catch me off guard lots and lots (hadn't noticed them until I tried retraining this week). Before the FI issues showed up, I was already hesitant to leave the house unpadded due to just that factor. In fact, on one occasion recently I was right...I'd been sitting down, and the urge hit me so suddenly and hard that it overwhelmed me and I started going automatically...and of course, I couldn't stop despite my embarrassment (fortunately I was at least padded). Finally, while I haven't been bedwetting, I *have* started experienced a few episodes again in the past week. Now, I did mention some retraining. I've been at it only roughly a week so far but have seen *some* progress. Not a lot, but some. Everytime I've peed in the toilet, I've tried stopping the stream. It has gotten a little easier and I managed to hold it for several seconds more than at the beginning of the week. Almost to the point of stopping it completely enough to consider standing up and walking away, but not quite. Bowel control has also improved; I've gone from 4 minutes up to 7-8. However, actual control has ultimately been elusive; I'm not able to induce reverse peristalsis like before, and then comfortably walk away after maybe 30 seconds or so of effort. Discomfort begins immediately, the latter half of the time is a full-body-effort fight, and the urge only gets stronger over time until failure occurs. Further, progress hasn't been linear; on one day I dropped down from 6 minutes to unexpectedly less than 3. My nearly-8 record so-far I think was only accomplished because volume (therefore load) was unusually low (roughly half). So while my progress is...something...I'm not sure how much it really is, and if it'll continue. So on retraining...After I'm past this temporary hurdle, I will probably give it up for good. Maybe slight maintenance, but certainly nowhere up to what it was before.

Welcome to "Kiffy Completely Fails Toilet Training" folks. In today's episode, I was on a roll and made it to 5, then 6, and then had finally 7 minutes yesterday. I was confident I could at least make it to 7, even 8 minutes. But today I couldn't even make it to 4. ? It wasn't like I wasn't trying...I wanted to do better, I felt competitive to beat my previous record, and admittedly part of me was also curious if it really was going to push out despite me holding as hard as I could. (even though it ... has...despite my denial) And so of course it did, disbelief be damned. And then my control collapsed completely and it exploded out. So, I've come up with a new extension to "prairie dogging": It's a buff-ass fuzzy fucker that muscle-ups a damn couch on the way out. Holy shit.

Was not a bedwetter as a kid...maybe had a few incidents, but that was it. I *have* achieved bedwetting through untraining, several times, and like Sherri it didn't start for me until later on during those phases. It would then ramp up roughly linearly once it started, and then I could stop it by going cold-turkey and stopping diaper wearing. But, when and how quickly that happened varied tons. Four years ago, or so, I did only *two* months of untraining and was waking up 4-5 nights per week wet by the end of it. Last year, up until bottom surgery, I'd been untraining for roughly 6 months and only went up to a few nights per week. This year I've been 24/7 but not strictly untraining on/off due to bottom surgery and stuff. July has been my longest streak so far, and have been taking it easy. Haven't had any wet nights at all, afik, haven't really focused on it like I did before. But, this past week I had one again out of the blue. Also, roughly mid-September I noticed I couldn't stop peeing once it started (at best hold for a few seconds, before collapse), and this past week I've noticed I can't stop mushing accidents after 5 minutes. So...having been there and back fully twice now I'm just looking forward to finally letting it go fully this time? Will be interesting to see what happens considering I appear to have some actual continence issues at this point on both fronts (and considering the short timespan, my money is on pelvic floor weakness accelerating my 24/7 lifestyle...stopping diapers has done far less this time around, too).

Hmmm...Maybe? I mean, I'm pretty blase about changing when out-and-about and stuff but haven't really told anyone about it besides my doctor. So... ?‍♀️

Yep, hit me this week. At the time I realized I couldn't hold back mushing for more than 5 minutes. I was in heavy denial until my hubby brought up how last year we had to walk to the janitor's office in the mornings to use the potty, and at that point a wave of fear ran through my body. I started thinking about how I'd need to get dressed, put on my shoes and coat, lock the door, walk over there, etc., all within 3 (absolute max 5) minutes within view of the public. It was at that point it finally hit me most people aren't thinking about all the obstacles between themselves and the bathroom, under time pressure... Yuuuup.

I've mentioned some of the wetting issues to my Doc...but not the rest yet. Especially the most recent developments. I plan to...just...not right now. Mostly out of embarrassment, if you can believe it. At some point I'll come forward about it and rip off the bandaid...I want to make sure I don't have some other real issue underneath most of all.

Partner has known about my Little side since I met them, so they were fine with it when I brought it up overall. They were a little concerned about untraining, in as much they wanted to make sure I was thinking about it and they had a few misconceptions, but that evaporated after a conversation. Now they tease sometimes, so that's fun. Friends, I haven't told because I haven't had a reason to (e.g. staying overnight, sharing rooms, etc). However, I don't assume they don't already know either. Whilst I've had to focus temporarily on retraining and therefore being out of diapers most of the time, I did realize I needed to make an exception for being around folks like them that *may* know in-order to maintain the status quo; I don't want to confuse / muddy things, if they already know. Implied social lock-in or whatever you want to call it. Family knows I have worn diapers, but the relationship there was strained / traumatic. I don't want to get into details on this thread besides that they tried to 'cure' me of it, so you can imagine how well they'd respond to finding out I wear diapers 24/7 now (arguably for need).

Hooray! I actually made it to 5 minutes, with no diapers as backup... ...And I definitely didn't dart to the bathroom on the dot to end my "self torture". ...And I couldn't keep a straight face, stand upright, or stay silent, nor prevent my husband from asking if I was okay or if that was just my "poopy face" (bless his infinite supply of snark and tease) ...And I may or may not have literally counted every minute, and been unable to focus on anything except keeping my pants clean... But I did make it. Hah! ? God, I'm celebrating a measly five minutes. ? FTR, while numerically this should have proved a difference, this felt just as hard as yesterday and had I not measured it I wouldn't have perceived any difference. Thank goodness for clocks, to keep me motivated?

Wow. Uhm. Condolances! That sounds...frustrating. I hope you can find a solution that works better for you.

Also just realized after posting the above, that were I not able to work from home most days, I'd be royally fucked. If I accidentally start to pee, I can't stop it and it's going to empty at least halfway before I can stop it for a few seconds. Not manageable with pads, requires diapers. If I have an upset tummy, I'll likely have an accident unless I can find a toilet presumably within <5 minutes at best (I've not tested this...nor desire to). Absolutely requires diapers to manage. In all manners above, wearing proper full diapers with leak and odor protection (an additional layer of plastic pants, ideally also terry or something else absorbent) would make logical sense. To go without that cold-turkey is honestly a bit irresponsible on my part. Literally the only reason I can only take the risk of running about the majority of the day out of diapers is because I work from home most days, and can therefore afford to have accidents without becoming a bio-social hazard for others. I have a safe environment to fail in. Were I having to come in to work every day, I couldn't take that risk...I'd still try, and I'm lucky to have an office job where I could run off to the restroom and try getting off my clothes before the timer runs out. But not everybody has that luxury of accessibility and predictability. So, wanted to post that separately as I think it's important to keep that in perspective. I'm in ideal circumstances to retrain, so if I succeed then honestly I owe it more-so to those circumstances than anything else. And if I fail then...that's 100% on me. I think Kali talked about that as well a few times, and I know if their case at the time they had lots of commuting, lots of walking between classes, etc...as I understand it, less ideal than the ones I'm in right now. It's funny to have arrived at similar realizations.

Thanks Jon! Ofc, literally just got my surgery date now. And it's less than a month away so I immediately had to jump into only-diapers-when-you-can't-fail mode; e.g. no diapers during the day, except when leaving the house (fortunately I can WFH most of the week). It was alright, but damn did it feel stressful thinking about my bladder so much and going potty as soon as an urge hit. I've continued focusing on improving bowel control in the mornings too, BUT when I said I could go less than five minutes I'm realizing what I really meant was 1-3 minutes when standing. Which, is just above the threshold for time required to remove complex clothes (fortunately I usually dress in skirts)... This could literally be the edge in front of the point of no-return, and had I not committed like I had this week I may not have noticed going right past it. That's the scary part, I think...It's not like I was ever "testing" my bowel control especially since I usually only go in the mornings; yeah I could feel discomfort but it wasn't different from before untraining and it was easy to assume I could still manage despite it or that the discomfort would go away after a minute or two like it usually did. But nope. The only clue I got was getting an uptick in BMs during the day, going from in-the-morning, to after each meal, to during exercise within the span of a few weeks. So if any y'all untraining in that area...do track the number of BMs and if they're outside mealtime or not, because it appears to sneak up on ya. This morning was I think a bit more...telling than the past few days. I tried the hardest I'd tried so far, and I felt vibrating when trying to hold it, at the 2-3 minute mark just like when first training a muscle. I was straining and focusing entirely on not having an accident up to that point already, too, and while I briefly imagined being in underwear instead of diapers it only gave me a minute-more (literally) of resolve before I ... had an accident. I'm still not quite sure how much of it is my body pushing because diapers = time to potty so push now vs I'm actually in undies don't do this now (feels lots like when they do when I strength train tbh), so since tomorrow is a weekend I'm going to give that a ... try. Will see then what I have to report. But in either case, I think I'll be okay in the end... I can work up my strength, as I've demonstrated to myself with my arms, legs, etc...so I'll get there. The main question now is how much I can get back before time runs out.

Oh shit, this is what I've been going through the past few weeks -- nearly word-for-word ? Uhm anyway, yes I'm also 24/7 for everything. Had nearly 6 months before bottom surgery, and have been on/off through the recovery phases after; see my thread for more about it. Am I happy with my decision? Overall yes. Am I happy about the timing of how suddenly/quickly some changes have started taking place recently? Ehhhhhh, not as much, but still would be happy to let it all go at some point in probably the next few months.

It...I...*sigh* I mean, you're right. And it's what I *want* to happen. It's just that...while I'm more towards "fuck it" with the other surgery than I used to be, I still want to try and go for it if I can and...I don't want more reasons for it to go sideways like the first time. (not related to diapers btw...probably was combo of cath bumping it, skin elasticity, method, etc) Am getting impatient on the revision date, though (still don't have one besides vaguely "the fall")...so my resolve does weaken day-by-day. Ugh...wanting this while also wanting bottom surgery to be done sucks.

Also, I just realized I forgot to describe a change I went through from roughly July to now (let's say Oct) that I thought folks might have found interesting. So when you pee you are supposed to keep your muscles relaxed as long as possible. I had been doing that quite well, and now it really does feel like a default thing to not hold any tension down there. But one thing that I didn't expect to have happen were these...contractions, especially when falling asleep? It was actually a problem for a while, and I experienced it nearly immediately from after surgery I think because I was ultra paranoid about getting anything wet at some level. So what did that feel like? You know that sensation of falling asleep, and then suddenly feeling like you're actually falling, jolting you awake? I had that, except in my pelvic floor. I'd be relaxing and about to doze off, when my pelvic floor would suddenly relax more and I'd feel it completely drop. But, uncontrollably, everything down there would suddenly clamp down and tense up to pull the pelvic floor back in again -- and the sensation would jolt me back awake. During the day I might experience something similar when sitting for a while or when I have what feels like a "might leak" kind of full bladder. I'd have to focus on relaxing, and I'd get the same reflexive pull-back. At one point, this felt kinda vibration-y as they battled it out but it wasn't ever painful. Anyway, I realized today I've not experienced that for quite some time now. Which is great, of course! But yeah, sorry I forgot to document that here...It happened so much I didn't think much of it, then it went away without me realizing it. So, now ya' know... ...And I suspect, btw, that it was around the time I noticed increased leaks and had to up my diapering again that was when that behavior started fading...But I didn't journal about it privately, so we'll never know unless I go through training/untraining again.

Uhm wow. I set a goal of holding for 5 minutes just to start. Should be a piece of cake right? But damn that was uncomfortable. And I realized after-the-fact it was probably even-less than that because the clock in the other room was behind a minute or two. I didn't exactly lose control after that time, but holy god did I need to just let go. And this, mind you, was under "ideal" conditions; I have my doubts if I ever have an upset tummy outside the house, or had to keep a straight face. Ohhhhh boy...honestly, it'd be a wise idea to be dressed assuming the worst whenever I leave the house. And to get swim diapers next summer. I'm gonna keep trying to get stronger for now, but I admit...while I don't like what happened after the second surgery, it is ultimately a cosmetic problem. I was seriously toying with the thought of declining having another revision surgery to fix it...More travel, going under while awake, scared to move for two weeks, another 2 teasing out stitches...All without diapers, of course. I admit, it'd be nice to throw in the towel and say "fuck it, good enough".

Uhm...Hmm...How to put this... I think my bowel control is starting to erode? Like, I remember Kali talking about having accidents while in stressful / compromised positions (like squats) being one of those flags you have to watch out for. And I specifically remember thinking "Okay I can see that but...I have a really hard time picturing that happening to me" after reading that... ?‍♀️ I've fortunately not yet had a full accident (emptying out all the way, unable to stop it), but I have: had very small ones / leaks when I didn't quite expect to and was in a compromised position e.g. squatting (have been working on ankle stuff) had to focus on not messing in certain positions/exercises; e.g. it feels like it'll come out or has started to come out, and I have to stop what I'm doing and/or clench down a bit exercise now in-general triggers gas (new thing for me) for a while now, had lots more urgency in the mornings / pain when trying to hold it I also had a hilarious moment walking to the bathroom, uncontrollably farting and giggling (progressively louder) with each step. And in the past week I've been having more-frequent movements (though I've also had a head-cold so...who knows). So...Not honestly sure how to think about that. I guess I'm fine with this longer-term but maybe not right now? I will be trying to stop/slow this by at least mayyyybe trying to hold it longer in the mornings instead of immediately emptying out? Again as a reminder to anybody else reading this...whatever I'm experiencing could be the result of bottom surgery (whether weakening my pelvic floor, or just...not quite using my muscles like I used to) and this really shouldn't be a normal progression. If it gets any worse, I'll involve my doc. I already told them about the daytime issues but it hasn't gone any further than that (no tests ordered, etc).

You got this! ? ? I cried happy tears when I woke up, and as much of a pain in the ass (and other places, lol) recovery has been at times, overall it has been the best thing I've ever done for myself. And NGL, recovery was probably one of the most littling experiences I've been through, even if it was due to pain / discomfort ?

Good luck! Wishing you the best in recovery! For me, at least (two-stage penile inversion), I wore a catheter while recovering in the hospital but they removed it before I left. Yes things worked, but I did spray a lot and they opened it more in the second-stage/revision to open it up more (which also required a cath for a week). Also yes, you should avoid wearing diapers so you can keep the stitches clean for a while... But it's a little different for every surgeon, so I'm curious what Princessamaryllis has to say too.

I'm happy to hear it's maybe not as scary as I'd thought, thanks y'all. That said, even if I had been able to request it I'd still rather not have taken additional risk in surgery; my nerves were fried as they were worrying about getting Covid (delaying surgery several months due to anesthesia risk), let alone the number of complications I could have experienced in surgery or recovery.

I'm not a doctor, but my general understanding is that removing the prostate often poses unnecessary additional risk in surgery (nerve damage, bleeding, urinary issues, etc). In addition to that, if the result of removing the prostate is decreased urinary control then that could mean additional risk during recovery; e.g. having a catheter longer (increasing risk of UTI) or making keeping the area clean / dry more difficult. Finally, in a similar vein to surgery to become incontinent / increase urinary issues, there's also moral implications as well for the surgeon in inflicting unnecessary risk/harm. This ofc assumes, btw, that the result of doing that would be to decrease the ability to hold urine rather than e.g. have the opposite effect and cause retention. I had to have my urethra widened a bit, and the thought of granulation near the entrance or some other issue that could cause retention problems was definitely a worry on my mind when recovering...after going through all that, I generally feel pretty fearful of surgery in-general but especially anything that touches the urinary system. Recovery sucks as it is, and the fewer risks you can have then the better.

One thing I've noticed since my last post is *even less* inhibition in wetting...which might be ... "well duh" but hear me out. We all know that when you wet you should acknowledge it, relax, and divert your attention somewhere else. I'm really good at this when I'm standing still, and to a lesser extent laying down. But when moving? Ohhhh no...not quiiite. Before, it went like this: I'd feel the need to pee, and I'd think "Oh! Gotta relax, gotta relax, gotta relax". This is fine, except when e.g. moving; I'd find myself trying to "control" it to *ensure* I stayed relaxed throughout a body movement. Which, counter-productively, would take my attention / focus when I really was supposed to be just acknowledging it and moving on. Plus, I'd find myself unintentionally clenching by accident, kinda like when the doctor hits the nerve by your knee and you kick on reflex; it was almost like I'd push to relax so much it had the opposite effect. Now, it goes like this: I feel the need to pee, think "Oh, I should relax but...Meh, it doesn't matter anyway." The difference now is that I know if I clench etc and try to not go then I'll go anyway...So, it really doesn't matter whether I focus on being relaxed or not through e.g. movements. So, for the first time in a while, I started to go while climbing stairs and...simply forgot to care about it, and didn't tense up at all. When I reached the top of the stairs, like when standing, I felt somewhat surprised as I realized I was wet and then remembered "oh yeah, I briefly thought to relax at the bottom of the stairs". So...that's a cool and productive change I guess!

So, a few interesting and good things have been happening since my last post. First of all, therapy has been going fantastic ? It has been tough, really really really tough at times. But, it has been gradually getting better and I'm feeling way way way wayyy better than I was. One thing I did worry about was if, through therapy, I would lose an interest in untraining. Or even being Little in-general. Admittedly, those thoughts crossed my mind a lot in the beginning. But, as things progressed and my sense of self confidence and worth came back up, and I found friends, those fears faded away. So I continued to wear diapers. Unfortunately I don't remember exactly when I really kept at it...I do know that, in practice, I was rarely out of them despite getting cold feet in July. Which brings me to the second thing: I'm having daytime accidents, despite trying not to. And by that, I mean I'm having moments where I literally cannot stop myself from peeing...hunched over, straining, trying not to let it happen, in the middle of taking off my diaper to try and use the toilet. Or most commonly, if I do make it to the toilet (after dialation especially for some reason...) and I try to stop the stream it (a) takes a long time to stop, and (b) I can only stop it for a few seconds at best. For those wondering, it doesn't feel like I expected...I was thinking it'd be like having numbness and not feeling any movement at all down there...but it feels more like trying to do a point-of-failure pushup at the end of a set. Yes, I can move my arm like I normally would and I can even think myself strong and capable because heck I can move my arm right? However, when I try to do that last rep, my coordination is shot, and my strength is drained out, and despite the effort my form goes to heck, arms give out, and I collapse to the ground. And then I pee myself. So...I dunno, maybe it's denial or what, but despite that I still don't think my control is entirely gone. If I, for example, try to hold it several times in a row I can 'remember' how to coordinate things down there and I have enough strength to stop it for a while. But, I haven't tested how long and laughing/straining is all it takes to overwhelm it. To that, I think the one other indicator that I still have something left is that I can and do feel urge build up if I'm lying down, and my bedwetting is inconsistent (though increasingly in that twighlight zone of not remembering if I woke up at night or not). So, these changes honestly catch me by surprise; I didn't expect to literally helplessly pee myself in the middle of attempting to reach the toilet this soon. I was guessing things would stay the same...as they did for most of the past several months. This has all started to happen in the past few weeks really. About the time I noticed I was leaking a lot more and had to jump to the next better diaper when leaving home. I think that, maybe, if I start retraining up again now I'll be okay for the recovery after the next (and hopefully last) followup surgery. I'll start slow; start by clenching off after peeing. Then I'll also wear underwear, as I still have that psychological memory to remember to hold by default. And it'll probably come back good enough. I think. But I think next time I let go, I suspect it really will go for good. And either way, this blog/thread will be an interesting (if frustrating) story in how you can bring yourself to an edge and back again.

Will second a similar experience... Was toilet trained by 2.5 years old, and never was given diapers for any kind of bedwetting (had bedwetting issues briefly maybe when I was 5, here and there, but no more than that). So for me it definitely wouldn't simply have been being exposed to Goodnights or whatever that did it...I think that mother claiming that is reaching a bit. And would echo the 're-visualizing ourselves in some sense to make that wrong right'. My best guess in my case? Jealousy of the attention my baby sibling got around the time I was becoming self-aware / have my earliest memories (3-4 years old). There was trauma after those points that reinforced coping in that way and bam, here were are.

Uhm...honestly, maybe approach a doctor? You shouldn't be having those kinds of accidents after only 2 days...Hypnosis can do wonders, but that kind of stuff after 2 days is a bit strange. Generally speaking, yes, you can eventually weaken bowel control by weakening the pelvic floor through urinary untraining...but results vary, and even 'fast' cases take months if not years. Some don't have this problem at all. But I've never heard of this happening within days...

Thank you for the update! I've a semi random question -- I'm wondering if you developed any tailbone pain during the untraining? Or if that is just... me... I ask because mine started at some point after I started untraining and I know it takes pelvic floor therapy to fix it, but it could have just been coincidence.