What Is It To Be Transgender?

[SecondLook]

To me, being transgendered is having a mental projection of what I am not. To me, I am female. However to those around me, I am what I allow them to see. Hence the name, SecondLook, I get them all the time. I can easily pass of being an uber male, or a beatiful female- let my hair down, put on a pair of heels and some make-up. I love it, too, best of both worlds, I guess. I was in the middle of transition, and just stopped. I hated dealing with the shrinks and doctors. One morning I decided surgery was not for me. Yet. That was 4 years ago, got all the stuff, just need to have the surgery done. Wow how time flys. My close friends and family know me as I should be. I am very femine around them, and have a rather femine voice and mannerisms. they even call me Chrissy as opposed to Christopher. Around new people I am completely different, using more masculine mannerisms and having a much deeper voice. It freaked out one of my bosses when I came out in a conversation. I do hate the "multiple personnalities" but it is how I am hard wired. No helping it

[hazardouskink]

So, you can´t get pregnant as the person in these articles:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzz/Pregnant_Man

uh... well, i could have until i had my hysto a few months ago. but yes, FTMs can get pregnant. we're born with all our organs factory-direct... nothing stops us from using 'em.

pregnancy wasn't something i was willing to attempt. it was my decision, therefore, to undergo a full hysto/oompho procedure to have my uterus and ovaries removed. i am now sterile and that doesn't bother me a bit.

i'll admit i struggle to see the relevance of your post, though. i'm interested to see why you asked that.

[Sophie ♥]

With all of this being said, I encourage anyone who is young and feels that they were born the wrong gender to consider what lies ahead with delaying if you are serious about transitioning.

I am actually having a really serious conflict with myself. I dont really know what's wrong with me recently.

First I abandoned this site completely for months. I just couldn't look at girls in diapers or watch any anime or read manga anymore because I find I get jealous: horribly jealous... So for the past three days or so i've been conflicting with myself over this gender change idea. I really want to be cute. I am not comfortable being a girl only when I am alone or with 'certain people'. I feel like I need more than that.

I have been feeling really sick all weekend and avoiding everyone. I skipped work and have been avoiding phone calls. I've actually been eating a lot, which I hate. I don't know.

Anyway, I came back here. I don't know why. It felt overdue. It still hurts to look at pictures and read certain things. I can't do stories anymore either. It's not working right. I just don't know.

*shrugs*

I wish I didn't complain so much. It makes me seem annoying.

-Sophie

[Saschadzg]

uh... well, i could have until i had my hysto a few months ago. but yes, FTMs can get pregnant. we're born with all our organs factory-direct... nothing stops us from using 'em.

pregnancy wasn't something i was willing to attempt. it was my decision, therefore, to undergo a full hysto/oompho procedure to have my uterus and ovaries removed. i am now sterile and that doesn't bother me a bit.

i'll admit i struggle to see the relevance of your post, though. i'm interested to see why you asked that.

@hazardouskink

In my opinion both pregnancy and fathering enforce the role of birth sex. e.g. there is no more female role than being pregnant.

Kvetinka

[hazardouskink]

@hazardouskink

In my opinion both pregnancy and fathering enforce the role of birth sex. e.g. there is no more female role than being pregnant.

Kvetinka

well, that may well be true... but that doesn't dictate whether i can or can't. just if i'd want to or not. i personally really, really want a child of my own descent. i am proud of my genetics and feel that i bring a positive set of DNA to a future generation. however due to the limits of science i cannot produce sperm. what choice am i left with? spontaneous cloning?

in my case timing, the generosity of my insurance company in covering my hysto/related surgeries, and other medical reasons made my decision for me. i have a lot of regret that i will now be unable to produce genetically-related offspring. although i do not see how i could possibly have carried a baby in a pregnancy, there was and is no other option available to people like myself.

[hazardouskink]

Theoretically, there could have been a surrogate using frozen eggs. Same would apply for me, frozen sperm later put into a surrogate or partner. It carries on the genetics line, but I do agree with you on principle.

that is theoretically true, you're right. except in order for them to harvest eggs you have to be on an intense estrogen cycle, be put under anesthetic and have limited mobility for up to 2 weeks, and spend a veritable shiteload of money which a 17-18 year old does not under normal circumstances possess.

a) i had no desire to make myself MORE feminine as part of the hormonal stimulation

i like to avoid being put under anesthetic more than i have to

c) i really cant afford to miss 2 weeks of work or classes

d) i didn't and dont plan on having a spare $80,000 to throw around on the procedure

so yes, i absolutely agree... that may be a viable alternative for some families. but unfortunately for me it was not one and now its too late. until they find a way to implant DNA in a completely neutral sperm cell (which i can imagine would cost MORE than $80k anyway) i'm looking at adoption and warming to that idea more and more every year. luckily i still have a good 5-10 years before i'm looking to start a family, and hopefully the partner i have at that time will be interested in carrying a child.

really the base point i had regarding kvetinka's reply was to denote the distinction between 'can' and 'want to'. yes, i could originally. but no, i wouldn't.

[Saschadzg]

a) i had no desire to make myself MORE feminine as part of the hormonal stimulation

And I did not want to take testosterone to become more masculine. I never could have tolerated side effects like hair loss or muscle growing. My dream would be doubling my X chromosome and afterswards cloning with the artifial XX cell.

Having been TS only on the papers even made me a bad SRS result as the surgery procedure was designed for anatomically correct men and not in-betweens.

Babygirl Kvetinka

[lil jenny]

My heart goes out to all of you - so sad seeing people of 18 trying to cope with thoughts of being transgendered.

From the bottom of my heart I feel for you all. Although I am a girl and was born a girl and only know life as a girl I am still now trying to understand what it is you are all feeling and going through in the journey to find out who you really are.

It must be hell on earth for you and I wish I could do something to help but as usual all I can do is listen but that isn't much.

So many people are closed minded to your dilemmas and it is such a shame. If people put themselves into your shoes they would only be a quarter way there to understanding but at least trying to understand.

I find TG's and Transexual people fascinating and want to understand better, but I am no psychologist I don't pretend to be but I can be your friend and if you need to talk I will listen and I hope it goes part way to helping you find the true person inside.

You are all very special people and I think you are all very brave having to cope each day with your thoughts and feelings. May you find happiness one way or another in your lives - I certainly will be thinking about you all. <img src="http://www.dailydiapers.com/board/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumbsup.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="" border="0" alt="thumbsup.gif" />

you know that makes me happy to know that thare are still a few girls out there who see other girls in people and not just what is on the outside. or for that matter boys *giggels* for the ftm tg people out there.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

One of the persons at the TGLG group I was with has this quote attribute to her "Sex is physical Gender is between the ears". I think that "gender" is a personality component. From my understanding "sissy" defines one by what one is lacking in more than what one is. the two genders; masculine and feminine are defined by traits, interests and feelings about things. I took the COGIATI (knowing what I do about psychological testing and seeing some of the signs that this was a valid personality test and being honestly interested, I played it straignt) and came out as a "class III: Androgyne, a nearly even mix. I had understood this comcept before but not it's name, I called it 2G. I am perfectly happy as both a girl and a boy but as AB, a girl.

Even when I wss little, I lacked none of the boy things nor was I dissatified with them. The two parts of my personality are compartmentalized and the part that is girl is all girl and the part that is boy is all boy

So I regard gender as a constellation of personality traits. I differentiate between transsexual and transgendered. one is physcial based the other is psycholigical based the develpment of which follows the rules of behavior. To see the key difference of how it implements, read my Blog entry "Christine Daryleanne"

[WallaWalla]

I would argue that something very physical rests between the ears. The brain is attached to the body and the influence each other as two parts of a whole. Hormones induce morphological changes/development within the brain and in turn the brain influences hormone levels. Given the evidence put before me, I can not acquit to the notion that mind-body dualism is a valid and applicable concept to the reality in which we reside.

I would also say that transsexuals are every bit as interested in enacting a feminine affect and social demeanor as transgendered people are. Depending on the transsexual in question of course...

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

I would argue that something very physical rests between the ears. The brain is attached to the body and the influence each other as two parts of a whole. Hormones induce morphological changes/development within the brain and in turn the brain influences hormone levels. Given the evidence put before me, I can not acquit to the notion that mind-body dualism is a valid and applicable concept to the reality in which we reside.

I would also say that transsexuals are every bit as interested in enacting a feminine affect and social demeanor as transgendered people are. Depending on the transsexual in question of course...

Not only is the brain attached to the body but has been shown to do some re-configuration as a result of behavior and yes transexuals are as you describe. Read the autobiography of Christine Jorgensen

The difference is that between "psycho-somatic" and "somato-psychic"

In the latter the impeptus or first cause is somatic, that is, a link can be shown to originate in the physical structure.

"Psycho-somatic", which was first understood by medicine. where the root of a real (not imagined: that is Conversion Hysteria and Mass Sociogenic Disorders, such as "sick house syndrome", "Chronic Fatigue Syndrom" and "Irritable Bowel Syndrome" and usually respond to double-blind testing and congitive psychotherapy or a catch-all medical diagnoses) physical disorder, is psychogenic, usually from stress and, next to phobia reduction, is one of the chief uses of behavior modification: Been there; done that; got the tiara.

I've been MRI'ed and my brain is medically normal (they were looking for a problem in the optic system) On the ohter hand, my verbal skills reach into the feminine which it is believed to be hard-wired (I do not share that belief and it is not yet fully proven) and my ability to distinguish colors is also into the feminine

The COGIATI treated transgenderedness and transexualness as two different things

I know of no studies that linked gender to brain configuaration or the newest model that I came across some 33 years ago; brain state

[WallaWalla]

Are you qualifying gender as strictly relative to culture?

I must admit that I'm not entirely certain what you mean by 'gender' and 'sex,' these terms seem to mean different things to different people so I would have to know your definition before continuing much further. But, there are studies which indicate cross-sex morphology in the brains of transsexuals. So, are you saying that they are oriented on a phenotypical/medical etiology whereas 'transgender' people are demonstrating something that is purely derived from the psyche?

Psycho-somatic", which was first understood by medicine. where the root of a real (not imagined: that is Conversion Hysteria and Mass Sociogenic Disorders, such as "sick house syndrome", "Chronic Fatigue Syndrom" and "Irritable Bowel Syndrome" and usually respond to double-blind testing and congitive psychotherapy or a catch-all medical diagnoses) physical disorder, is psychogenic, usually from stress and, next to phobia reduction, is one of the chief uses of behavior modification: Been there; done that; got the tiara.

Wait a second, are you implying that irritable bowel syndrome is imaginary? Or am I misunderstanding you? I can provide studies showing physiological etiologies for IBS.

On the ohter hand, my verbal skills reach into the feminine which it is believed to be hard-wired (I do not share that belief and it is not yet fully proven) and my ability to distinguish colors is also into the feminine

I'm not sure who 'believes' that at this point really. I also don't necessarily agree with the notion that pheno/endo/genotypical women are more verbally skilled than men on average. So, I'm not entirely certain what you mean when you say 'my verbal skills reach into the feminine,' would you mind clarifying?

The COGIATI treated transgenderedness and transexualness as two different things

The COAGITI is just something that somebody made up. It has no empirical basis nor should it be taken as anything other than what it is, an amateur attempt at psychometrics. The individual who created it doesn't have a degree in psychology to my knowledge. Not that I disagree with their assertion that transgenderism and transsexualism are two different things. I'm just pointing out that it makes a pretty poor authority to make an appeal to.

[sarah_ab]

from what i have come to udnerstand through not only study and research but talking with my own friends who identify as transgendered as MtF or FtM..

sex is the biological trait you have.... and scientists have accepted there are more than two sexes.... because not everyone has just XX or XY sex chromosomes.... and because if we are talking biological traits, you can appear to have female sex organs outside your body, but have XY chromosomes and vica versa.... but still sex is biological

Gender is psychological - its how you feel - and the gender that you feel IS defined by the society that you live in and the commonly held cultural beliefs you have. In 'westernized' society which many of our board members grew up in and still currently live in... female and male have certain attributes. We attribute certain characteristics to either the masculine or the feminine.. so you gender is how you feel based on the idea of gender you have.

I feel female, i recognize that i may have some masculinely associated traits according to my culture, but I feel female and enjoy being female. So my Gender is female. My biological sex both outward physical traits and chromosomal is XX which would be considered female.

But i do have a question.... and i thought i would ask it in this thread as opposed to starting a new one.

On DD when you enter your information that people can see it sasy "I am a...." and then you can enter, male, female, transgendered.... i am wondering... if you are say FtM, do you prefer to call yourself Male or transgendered? I ask because the friends I have, consider transgendered, not an identity but more a medical term used to attain certain benefits from insurance, but they do not see trans as a gender. they see themself as Male or Female. I am wondering though, is it becoming more common for trans to be a gender in and of itself?

I was wondering this because on many other websites i have gone to, there are many options under gender and male, female, FtM, MtF, along with the pseudo male and pseudo female hermaphrodite options.... but i have not seen Transgendered as a choice on those websites, instead people opt to say female to male, so 1. people understand their biological traits may not as of yet match their identified gender, and 2. so you know how to refer to that person i.e. a he or a she when talking in a chat room or making a post....

[sarah_ab]

it can't be a complete nightmare cause i'm here... and i make everything better!!!!!

[Saschadzg]

I consider trans* a transitional status with ends upon completion of the judical and medical procedures.

[Kerry X]

I considered myself transgender earlier on in life, but pushed it out of my mind as just as phase or something I was going through, but now it's back in the forefront of my mind just like it was before. I could just repeat the sex/gender dichotomy stuff that many people have posted, but I'd rather focus on something different. Personally, I'd like to see gender lines continue to blur, and have an expansion of both genders' expected roles. I just think that would be a good thing for humanity.

I also feel like even within the gay and trans community there's such a tendency to group people into one of two categories, which I don't think is healthy or good whatsoever. I mean, there is androgyny and gender identities that fall outside the dichotomy, and I feel like those get lost in the flux sometimes. I've felt like I belonged in a female body for a long time, though I suppressed it or considered it just youthful imagination or wishes, but my gender identity is pretty androgynous. I go either way sometimes.

To actually answer the question, though, being transgender is definitely a cognitive thing, in my mind.

I just think more open-mindedness is needed about the trans community in the general population.

[PrincessDragonette]

it can't be a complete nightmare cause i'm here... and i make everything better!!!!!

Thanks Sarah, that made me laugh .

[Bettypooh]

Not only is the brain attached to the body but has been shown to do some re-configuration as a result of behavior and yes transexuals are as you describe. Read the autobiography of Christine Jorgensen

The difference is that between "psycho-somatic" and "somato-psychic"

In the latter the impeptus or first cause is somatic, that is, a link can be shown to originate in the physical structure.

"Psycho-somatic", which was first understood by medicine. where the root of a real (not imagined: that is Conversion Hysteria and Mass Sociogenic Disorders, such as "sick house syndrome", "Chronic Fatigue Syndrom" and "Irritable Bowel Syndrome" and usually respond to double-blind testing and congitive psychotherapy or a catch-all medical diagnoses) physical disorder, is psychogenic, usually from stress and, next to phobia reduction, is one of the chief uses of behavior modification: Been there; done that; got the tiara.

I've been MRI'ed and my brain is medically normal (they were looking for a problem in the optic system) On the ohter hand, my verbal skills reach into the feminine which it is believed to be hard-wired (I do not share that belief and it is not yet fully proven) and my ability to distinguish colors is also into the feminine

The COGIATI treated transgenderedness and transexualness as two different things

I know of no studies that linked gender to brain configuaration or the newest model that I came across some 33 years ago; brain state

A recent study has shown that there are physical differences in the brains of MTF TS's, and that they more closely resemble the average female brain (yes there is a difference in size and shape). This was a carefully done clinical study covering a decent number of people, though I can't remember the details. If I get time I'll dig up the link and post it here. Another "physical" MTF trait is in brain activity. The average male uses mostly the right side and the average female uses both sides nearly equally- as does the MTF TS's studied. Chromosonal testing has proven to be uncertain- there are 36 known variations and many birth-mothers with several children who test as "male".

Note that I do not want to open another topic here but in states like Texas where the law forbids "gay marriage" and chromosonal tests are their standard would break up many families if the whole population were tested leaving many heterosexually parented kids with two "Dads" or "Moms". which is why I'd like to see their "standard" a requirement for their entire population- it would be hilarious for such a politically anti-gay state to suddenly have the most "gays". OK I have a twisted sense of humor.

Back on track here, the more we learn about gender and sexuality the more it is proven that there is no "normal", just a bell curve of what is usual and what is rarer. And this extends to the animal world too where many life-partnering animals worldwide have been found in same-sex partnerships- this even in places where no gender-changing man-made chemicals are present. For humans, gender is mostly between the ears and sex between the legs but not completely so. That someone cares enough to do such research is good; that it validates my thinking even better. But it leaves us worse off than before because it now puts the onus of discrimination squarely where it really is- on the hearts of ultra-conservative and certain religious persons who will not willingly accept the proven truth. Much like Galileo's "heresy" for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun, we may have to continue to deal with discrimination for awhile solely because the majority of people aren't ready to deal with the truth because they don't like it.

Gender and sexuality is a b!tch and a ba$tard and everything in between and all around it. We're all normal as long as we are true to ourselves- even those who are prejudiced. The truth will win in the end- it always does. What we have to do is the hardest chore: to make a wholesale change in society worldwide based on proven facts by standing up when we need to be heard and counted. There is risk in that, but nothing is ever gained without risk and cost.

Some of my dearest friends are fairly openly TG though all of them have to work in a single M or F gender role, as society currently forces them to act that way. They have various sexual preferences from nobody (asexual) to anybody (pansexual). There is no connection between their sexuality and gender; abd I can say similar things about 'straights' and Gays I know who tone down their gender differences when the situation makes it necessary. That is wrong but it is reality, the reality those of us towards the ends of that bell curve have to deal with ever waking hour of every day. It can make our lives a living he!! sometimes but when we "let our hair down" so to speak, we experience a bliss of being ourselves unknown to those in the center of the bell curve- a real blessing. We are the less usual ones, the people who push the edge of the envelope, the few who explore and discover and tell others what we've experienced so they too might want to see for themselves what we've found.

I've rambled on long enough and I have to get ready to go to work dressed as and acting like a guy just so that I can stay employed and keep those around me from thoughts of harming me for doing nothing wrong. When the opportunity to open minds presents itself I take it and show those who can handle the truth what the truth really is a little bit at a time. My biggest desire in life is for everyone to have to deal only with people like themselves from the perspective of the others who they disdain, not out of contempt for them but out of compassion for those who suffer because of them. If I could make that mandatory it wouldn't be long before humanity took it's next leap forward into a world of peace and understanding instead of divisiveness and conflict.

(had to delete all the emoticons to get this to post- Grrrr!)

Bettypooh

[Saschadzg]

I've rambled on long enough and I have to get ready to go to work dressed as and acting like a guy just so that I can stay employed and keep those around me from thoughts of harming me for doing nothing wrong.

The wrong doers are those who remain their belief in machismo, male supremacy and misogyny. It is like dogs who are afraid start biting. Gender dualism is like apartheid or segregation.

Kvetinka

[PrincessDragonette]

A recent study has shown that there are physical differences in the brains of MTF TS's, and that they more closely resemble the average female brain (yes there is a difference in size and shape). This was a carefully done clinical study covering a decent number of people, though I can't remember the details. If I get time I'll dig up the link and post it here. Another "physical" MTF trait is in brain activity. The average male uses mostly the right side and the average female uses both sides nearly equally- as does the MTF TS's studied. Chromosonal testing has proven to be uncertain- there are 36 known variations and many birth-mothers with several children who test as "male".

Bettypooh

There was a relatively older study like the one you mentioned, that seemed to show that there were inherent brain differences for TG people. A second study was done, a little more conclusive, and it showed that while it does seem to be true there are brain differences for TG people, they seem to be linked to HRT, rather than a birth characteristic.

A third study has been done, this one very recently, using imaging techniques to scan live brain tissue, where the previous brains were only studied post-mortem leading to the conclusion that there was a possibility of the differences seen being the result of HRT. This study showed that much of the differences that had been observed previously were in fact due to HRT (they scanned pre-HRT MtFs). Except for one part, the putamen. So different, yes, just not as different as previously shown.

Link to the article I found this in here. And the abstract of the original.

[Saschadzg]

A third study has been done, this one very recently, using imaging techniques to scan live brain tissue, where the previous brains were only studied post-mortem leading to the conclusion that there was a possibility of the differences seen being the result of HRT. This study showed that much of the differences that had been observed previously were in fact due to HRT (they scanned pre-HRT MtFs). Except for one part, the putamen. So different, yes, just not as different as previously shown.

Hi,

a post mortem examination study by Dutch researchers shows that the size of the BSTc area of the hypothalamus is smaller than the BSTc size of men and correlates with the female size. The BSTc is not effected by sex hormones:

Dutch study

Kvetinka

[PrincessDragonette]

Hi,

a post mortem examination study by Dutch researchers shows that the size of the BSTc area of the hypothalamus is smaller than the BSTc size of men and correlates with the female size. The BSTc is not effected by sex hormones:

Dutch study

Kvetinka

I'd like to read the study you mentioned but I'm not finding it. You linked to an article, but their citations are either broken or don't link to what they claim to link to.

I did however, find this study from the Netherlands that claims to show hormone treatment increasing and decreasing hypothalamus and total brain volumes. Very small study size (8 MtF and 6 FtM) so it's hardly conclusive, but it seems to show the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

If you have the link to either the abstract or preferably, the full study, that you mentioned please post the link .

[Saschadzg]

I did however, find this study from the Netherlands that claims to show hormone treatment increasing and decreasing hypothalamus and total brain volumes. Very small study size (8 MtF and 6 FtM) so it's hardly conclusive, but it seems to show the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

Cohen Kettenis always tries to prove TS as mental illness/psychological disorder.

The Amsteram study proves the opposite: " A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation."

http://www.nature.com/index.html?file=/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html

[PrincessDragonette]

Cohen Kettenis always tries to prove TS as mental illness/psychological disorder.

The Amsteram study proves the opposite: " A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation."

here. And I find this study to be more compelling for your argument than the one you linked.

Are there any other researchers whose studies you will disregard out of hand? Because I could mention a study that shows BSTc sizes don't fully develop until adulthood, far past early-onset transsexualism (so too late to be causally linked for early-onset and too early for late-onset transsexualism. Incidentally, this study was co-authored by D.F. Swaab, one of the researchers in the study that you linked). Or another study that shows the hypothalamus, as well as other areas of the brain changing size with cross-hormone therapy (Though, interestingly, not the BSTc). But, it would be pointless if you were to just dismiss them because you don't like the researcher.

It is irrelevant what someone is "trying to prove" if they use accurate methods and publish their findings in peer-reviewed journals. If their findings are correct, then they're correct. If they're wrong, then prove that they are by showing an error in their methodology. It's a little ridiculous to disregard findings because you don't like them.

I don't buy into any one theory, I'm firmly in the wait-and-see category. None of these studies are conclusive enough to convince me they've unraveled the mystery.

[Saschadzg]

Are there any other researchers whose studies you will disregard out of hand?

I would not believe anything by Blanchard, Bailey and Zucker as they are propagandists. There a numerous studies with rodents which were injected hormones prenatally or postnatally and then showed the behavior of the opposite sex.

Dörner and some Austrian researchers where leading: Dörner

Scientists advocating psychological causes make themselves accomplices of the chemical industry who try to deny the effects of the softeners and ethinylestradiol from birth controll pills. E.g. many alligators in Florida show influences of hormonal alterations.

Bayer has alreday started to eliminate the ethinylestradiol from their birth controll pills as in Qlaira, www.natazia.com

Thus F 64.0 is a far more reaching issue.