Components of untraining

[IWANTHOTDOGS]

I've broken down untraining into a few categories and want to know what you think.

1. Functional/Lifestyle

This is all about the act, feeling and routine of wearing. Getting used to the bulk, dealing with heat, changes, having the right diaper on stock, etc.

2. Bladder capacity

Your bladder capacity is a muscle and it is trained simply by having some level of an urge to go to the bathroom, and holding it instead. Naturally by wearing diapers the bladder capacity will decrease since you are only using say 10% of your max capacity. It is no different than doing a bench press. If someone can bench press 200 pounds, but stops doing it for a year, their max bench press will decrease. The trick here is that they won't know what their bench press capability is until they attempt to do a bench press.

Untraining is the same way. Many report that after months of untraining, they feel as if they have made no progress. They only notice some changes when they test themselves by wearing underwear, only to find that they frequently have to go to the bathroom, far more than that of a normal adult. By wearing diapers continuously, you will have no insight into your loss of bladder capacity, but be sure that it is happening since you are not holding it to max capacity any more. 

Although this alone is not enough to cause incontinence as recently potty-trained toddlers have significantly smaller bladders then us, but we still consider them potty trained. The only significant different (other than bedwetting) is that they have a more frequent bathroom schedule then adults. So reducing capacity will only result in more frequent trips to the bathroom, but it's unlikely that you will NEED diapers except in circumstances where a bathroom will be unavailable for an extended period of time, in which case a pull-up would be helpful for "just in case".

3. Reverse Kegel/Weak pelvic floor

Keeping the reverse kegel state will weaken your pelvic floor and is where accidents start to happen, unlike reduced bladder capacity. It is also a necessary prerequisite for unconscious dribbling/small wettings, which also helps reduce bladder capacity. With only weak pelvic floor but strong bladder capacity, you may have some leaks. Now combine with a decreased bladder capacity and that's a potent combo for frequent accidents since you will have urges far more frequently, and reduced capability to resist those increasingly frequent urges.

4. Frequent wetting

This point seems to me to be more about training the nervous system to more frequently send signals to the bladder to void, even when it only has a drop of urine in it. By keeping the reverse kegel state and "consciously choosing to void" as frequently as possible, your training your body to do this automatically without having to "consciously choosing to void". So this isn't really about the physical changes but a mind-body connection which I think is actually harder to reverse if you want to retrain.

[dlmolicares]

Good write-up, I did a similar one related to training to become a true bedwetter. Some of the same principles apply. I think the psychological aspects are massive for both. To point #1 I would add the element of full acceptance. Like wetting the bed, daytime incon has the barrier of semi and subconscious tendencies to stay dry that need to be over come.

For example, are you OK wetting without control for the rest of your life? Are you OK standing up for a career making presentation in front of your boss and having an accident? Are you OK with wearing diapers when camping out with your friends or family? There are a myriad of aspects there, that if not addressed cause a slight pause in training. The hesitancy to "go" that makes training last as long as years instead of months.

Said differently, we can all train fairly quickly to reverse kegel and were it not for our minds we could hold that most/all of the time. Likewise, to wet the bed at night we could truly "go" any time and every place (all occasions) and control would drift quickly.

Your other points are also good (as is 1) in that the physiological can also "stack the deck" against staying dry although those later points won't create true loss of control without the psych aspect addressed as well.

[Enthusi]

This is great! Actually, it’s in line with my whole approach which I developed for myself, which is to be more scientific about untraining: Breaking the aspects of untraining to their core components and developing targeted strategies to hit each component.  Just as you alluded to… again kudos!

That said, by far the most important aspect is psychological / identity component.  That is, learning to see yourself as incontinent and diaper-dependent, even if it doesn't fully match your physical reality, is key. Hypnosis can help with that mindset shift.       There are also some good psychological tricks to help this go better.  For instance, consider that you can’t say you’re completely successfully toilet trained if you lack the basic desire to stay dry.… 😎

 

 

 

 

[IWANTHOTDOGS]

So I don't actually want to achieve full incontinence, but instead I want a much weaker "than normal bladder" to the point where I need pullups all the time for "just in case" and diapers for bedtime and when I'll be in public for longer than a grocery run.

With everything I mentioned in the original post, this should actually be very easily achievable. Making this the goal removes a lot of the more difficult aspects of untraining: keeping reversal kegal state 24/7 and never letting the bladder fill at all.

I want your guy's opinion but I think my goal is achievable even if I don't reverse kegal all the time, and peeing every 30min-1hr should be sufficient instead of dribbling as frequently as possible. This level of untraining is much less taxing physically and mentally, as well as more forgiving. Its also easier to reverse.

[Hannah YMS]

9 minutes ago, IWANTHOTDOGS said:

So I don't actually want to achieve full incontinence, but instead I want a much weaker "than normal bladder" to the point where I need pullups all the time for "just in case" and diapers for bedtime and when I'll be in public for longer than a grocery run.

With everything I mentioned in the original post, this should actually be very easily achievable. Making this the goal removes a lot of the more difficult aspects of untraining: keeping reversal kegal state 24/7 and never letting the bladder fill at all.

I want your guy's opinion but I think my goal is achievable even if I don't reverse kegal all the time, and peeing every 30min-1hr should be sufficient instead of dribbling as frequently as possible. This level of untraining is much less taxing physically and mentally, as well as more forgiving. Its also easier to reverse.

The reverse kegal thing is meant to train your mind. I think what you want to do is just to keep peeing as much as possible. If you don't exercise the bladder, it'll get tired and lazy. That's when you know your cruise range is low and you really do need diapers to avoid accidents and/or pain.

[IWANTHOTDOGS]

7 minutes ago, Hannah YMS said:

The reverse kegal thing is meant to train your mind. I think what you want to do is just to keep peeing as much as possible. If you don't exercise the bladder, it'll get tired and lazy. That's when you know your cruise range is low and you really do need diapers to avoid accidents and/or pain.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't have to be perfect at peeing as much as possible since any level of reduction of holding the bladder will still be effective in drastically reducing control.  Like if I use lets say max 25% of my bladder capacity instead of max 5% by peeing as frequently as possible, that will still be effective. That said, majority of the time I don't plan on holding more then 5% of my bladder capacity anyway, but even if I did use up to 25%, the other 75% of control would wither away which would leave me needing diapers in atleast some circumstances instead of 24/7 which a max 5% usage would do.