Is This Stealing?

[DollyDiaper]

A man has been arrested and charged with stealing Wireless Internet. Apparently he sat outside a random house with his Laptop and used their internet

connection and there's a debate running on the BBC as to the legality and/or morality of this practice -

Wi-Fi Arrest

My BT Broadband isn't unlimited, so on that basis alone, I would be very miffed if someone tuned in to my ISP without my knowledge! The legal lines look drawn, but the morality of it looks blurred.

What do you think? Theft? Opportunism? Acceptable....?

D lly

[InD]

A man has been arrested and charged with stealing Wireless Internet. Apparently he sat outside a random house with his Laptop and used their internet

connection and there's a debate running on the BBC as to the legality and/or morality of this practice -

Wi-Fi Arrest

My BT Broadband isn't unlimited, so on that basis alone, I would be very miffed if someone tuned in to my ISP without my knowlrdge! The legal lines look drawn, but the morality of it looks blurred.

What do you think? Theft? Opportunism? Acceptable....?

D lly

Good question.

If you leave your wireless access point free for all to use then are you not in essence inviting anyone to use your connection? If a person cracks a wireless password (which is trivial, not the point here) then you have used malicious means to gain access which is now stealing as far as I'm concerned.

InD

[BabyDavey]

If you leave your wireless access point free for all to use then are you not in essence inviting anyone to use your connection?

I agree. In fact, around here (NB, Canada) we have several places where one can hook up for free, such as the airport, a couple of 'Truck Stops', and even part of the downtown core. That being said, one could assume that any open, unsecured access point is available for public use. It takes mere minutes for one to secure their access point - not securing it is inviting others to use it.

[nappyloon]

Surely if you do not "secure" your internet connection then someone will "hop on" and use it, here we have the choice of using 3 different internets from our neighbours either side and one across the road, none of these have been secured so anyone can use it.

Personally I think that whilst the ethics are difficult to decide on, if you do not secure it what do you expect in this day and age ! there is always someone who "cannot be bothered" to buy their own connection and will sponge of others.

I am on the "fence" with this one, and NO I do not have the Laptop with me!

[bigbabbyblue75]

I think if they did not want you to use it then put a password on it, if they hack the password then i think it should be

[baby-dandan]

My sister taped into someone elses internet connection. Once they figured out she was on it, they asked her to log off and then they put a password on it. I am not sure which side to take on this one. There are public places I know of that let you use theirs with or without paying but since I don't have a laptop I do not know much about it.

[Guest diamondback688]

i know it is illegal in the US. around me, there are a bunch of places that offer free wi fi. 2 of which are are a couple of my favorite sandwich shops, Panera Bread and Crispers.

[thekid1]

i don't know how it could be cald stealing as you are not fiscally taking any thing its up to the people to secure their Internet connection. just my two bits

[DollyDiaper]

Surely if you do not "secure" your internet connection then someone will "hop on" and use it, here we have the choice of using 3 different internets from our neighbours either side and one across the road, none of these have been secured so anyone can use it.

Personally I think that whilst the ethics are difficult to decide on, if you do not secure it what do you expect in this day and age ! there is always someone who "cannot be bothered" to buy their own connection and will sponge of others.

I am on the "fence" with this one, and NO I do not have the Laptop with me!

Shove over nappyloon and I'll join you on the fence for now

So, just playing Devil's Advocate here.......to those who believe that if I haven't secured my ISP connection, it's my own fault and therefore a 'free for all'.

By this token are you saying that if I lnadvertently left my front door open and someone walked in and headed off with my TV, Stereo etc, that you wouldn't consider it stealing? Likewise, if I left the keys in my car ignition? It would be careless and/or foolish of me, I admit, but would that make it ethical to take them?

D lly

[Sunshine2585]

I think the fact that the guy actually took his laptop and went and stood on a random street to connect to an unsecured network makes it very different to a person in their own home connecting to their neighbours unsecured network. But both are some degree of stealing.

And Dolly, to answer your question, when you set up a wireless network the settings will ask you if you want to put a password on it to protect it. So to compare it with you carelesssly leaving your door open and someone walking off with your TV isn't right.

If every time you walked away from your front door, leaving it open, it asked you if you wanted to leave it open or shut it. And then you chose to leave it open, then you would be fully aware that the door was open, and it wasn't just you forgetting to close it. You had the chance to close the door, but didn't do it.

I don't know if I explained that too well. It makes sense to me though. If it doesn't make sense to anyone, then I will try and explain again.

[ridiaperboy]

The laptop I'm currently using has Wi-Fi capabilities, and on average, when I'm using it, 4 separate signals come blasting into my home...all 4 green bars, excellent strength, and 11 Mb speed...all unsecured. (I also receive numerous secured signals) This happens while I'm sitting in complete privacy, at a table in my kitchen; I have not sought the signals out nor am I sitting in front of someone's house, parked in a car, in search of an open Wi-Fi signal. I'm constantly bombarded with that pop-up Windows balloon, reporting the current status of whatever Wi-Fi signal my laptop is picking up. I will admit I have tested how well my laptop picks up the Internet via Wi-Fi with these signals, and the overall result of how well I can access the Internet is blazingly fast...almost instantaneous, with virtually no page loading. Yes...I am tempted to use these Wi-Fi signals trespassing into my home, but I don't bother, as I have my own Internet account...not quite as fast as what I could use on the sly, but secure and without the possibility of someone on the other end of whatever Wi-Fi account I'm using, looking into my laptop's content and its files.

[InD]

Shove over nappyloon and I'll join you on the fence for now

So, just playing Devil's Advocate here.......to those who believe that if I haven't secured my ISP connection, it's my own fault and therefore a 'free for all'.

By this token are you saying that if I lnadvertently left my front door open and someone walked in and headed off with my TV, Stereo etc, that you wouldn't consider it stealing? Likewise, if I left the keys in my car ignition? It would be careless and/or foolish of me, I admit, but would that make it ethical to take them?

D lly

While you inadvertently left your door open, it was not your intent to offer the items of your house for use by all. In other words, you intended to lock your house, but forgot. Whereas while setting up a wireless point you know damn well that you need to put a password in place, but did not. For me, an open access point is an invitation to share. After all, if you don't spend 30 seconds putting a password in place then you must want others to share your connection. Instead of your open door question I'll give you another scenario. Imagine a hotel with a large bowl of apples sitting near the main desk. There is no price tag and no cover of any sort. If you take an apple are you stealing?

InD

[BabyDavey]

By this token are you saying that if I inadvertently left my front door open and someone walked in and headed off with my TV, Stereo etc, that you wouldn't consider it stealing? Likewise, if I left the keys in my car ignition?

You make a good argument, Dolly, but unfortunately you're comparing apples to oranges.

Building your Wi-Fi network without any firewalls or security layers (such as WEP) despite the fact that they are built into installation is more akin to building a house and making the provision (cut-outs) for doors and windows, but not installing them - instead leaving them wide open for all the world to see. The provisions are there, but you chose to ignore them - despite security warnings.

That being said, I'm not saying it's ethical to harness another's Wi-Fi connection, but if you don't take those (easy) precautions, it's an open invitation to those with looser ethics.

I live out in the country, where the majority of my neighbours are either too far away to receive my signal or they don't use computers. Despite that fact, I have my Wi-Fi network installed with 128bit security. For people just like the original poster referenced. The ones who might stop their car in front of my house and 'hook up'. I'm not worried about them using my internet connection - it's unlimited broadband - I'm more worried about the malicious ones looking for more. If my internet was a pay-per-use system, I would likely be even more vigilant.

Just my 2¢

[DollyDiaper]

You make a good argument, Dolly, but unfortunately you're comparing apples to oranges.

Building your Wi-Fi network without any firewalls or security layers (such as WEP) despite the fact that they are built into installation is more akin to building a house and making the provision (cut-outs) for doors and windows, but not installing them - instead leaving them wide open for all the world to see. The provisions are there, but you chose to ignore them - despite security warnings.

That being said, I'm not saying it's ethical to harness another's Wi-Fi connection, but if you don't take those (easy) precautions, it's an open invitation to those with looser ethics.

I live out in the country, where the majority of my neighbours are either too far away to receive my signal or they don't use computers. Despite that fact, I have my Wi-Fi network installed with 128bit security. For people just like the original poster referenced. The ones who might stop their car in front of my house and 'hook up'. I'm not worried about them using my internet connection - it's unlimited broadband - I'm more worried about the malicious ones looking for more. If my internet was a pay-per-use system, I would likely be even more vigilant.

Just my 2¢

I am the OP Davey

But, as I said in my 2nd post in this thread, the ethics are very blurred and I'm staying on the fence hoping to be convinced either way. My intuitive feeling was that using anyone's ISP without their say-so is stealing but I can see it's more complex than that.

So, undecided as I am, I'm currently attempting to play Devil's Advocate in order to become more informed myself, in an attempt to make a personal moral 'judgement'.

Thanks for your input, Davey - and everyone who has contributed so far. Food for thought indeed.

D lly

[BoTox]

I support several people with laptops. One of them was complaining that his Wifi kept dropping. I logged into his router and discovered it was not a Wifi router, wired only. He'd been using a neighbor's internet for 3 months without knowing it. It happens and if the clueless have wifi, they will keep doing it unintentionally.

I'm of the opinion that an open Wifi is like an unfenced backyard. It isn't stealing as much as it might be trespassing. If no harm is done, no problem. I don't care if they walk across my yard if they don't throw trash or wear a path from doing it too much. Now, if you do something malicious in the backyard or on the Wifi, you are a troublemaker and a criminal.

[ridiaperboy]

I'm aware of those who have their Wi-Fi connections password protected in order to prevent those who want to use their signals to anonymously gain access to dicey websites, such as child porn sites, terrorists sites, etc. They argue that if a government organization wants to track down users of questionable sites, they will do so through IP tracking, and if their particular IP is found as visiting the sites, it will be the Wi-Fi owner of the IP on record who could potentially get nailed, even though the visitor who was actually someone using their Wi-Fi signal with no authorization is the one who should be nailed, if their is any governmental nailing to be done. I really don't know the validity of this argument. In theory, using another's Wi-Fi signal could be harmless, but I think the potential for someone to use it maliciously is too great not to consider having it password protected.

[diaprbayb]

Ok, how about this? Here in america you phone line usally comes to your house to a connection box outside. With a screwdriver I can open that box and plug into the jack that is there. So I connect there and make 900 number phone calls. You forgot to put a lock on that box (it has the loop for it) so I have every right to do it. Right?

What if I get on your wireless and decide to send threathning email to everybody. Hey, I can do anything cause when they trace it back it goes to your IP.

[Valentine]

Ok, how about this? Here in america you phone line usally comes to your house to a connection box outside. With a screwdriver I can open that box and plug into the jack that is there. So I connect there and make 900 number phone calls. You forgot to put a lock on that box (it has the loop for it) so I have every right to do it. Right?

What if I get on your wireless and decide to send threathning email to everybody. Hey, I can do anything cause when they trace it back it goes to your IP.

No, that wouldn't be the same. 900 calls are charged to the phoneline.

If the customer isn't paying for bandwidth used, you are not stealing from the customer, you are stealing from the Service Provider though.

If the customer does pay for bandwidth used, you are stealing from the the customer.

[DollyDiaper]

No, that wouldn't be the same. 900 calls are charged to the phoneline.

If the customer isn't paying for bandwidth used, you are not stealing from the customer, you are stealing from the Service Provider though.

If the customer does pay for bandwidth used, you are stealing from the the customer.

This is the very point at which my personal Moral Relativism has a habit of kicking in

To (directly) steal from an individual is anathema to me, but I don't have the same intuitive shock-horror reaction to stealing from a big corporation.

But, of course, I know that stealing from a big corporation ultimately would mean stealing from many individuals, as these corporatioins pass on losses to the customers in increased charges for their goods and services, it doesn't mean the fat-cats pay themselves any less!

D lly

[PampersPete]

I get a"free"connection everyday from a connection called linksys. It comes into my house. I didn't ask for it but it's there. Is this stealing? No. It is not. This is the same thing as if I bought a satelite dish for all the"free"terrestrial TV stations floating through the air that breathe. This laptop IS my dish. I don't give a shit who's paying for it. It's invading my space so I will use it.

[diaprbayb]

Oh, did everyone forget about the flip side? By using those "free" connections it exposes you to the owner of the connection. That is also a new way for others to get into your PC. They put these seemingly open and free access and sit back and collect the info.

[InD]

Oh, did everyone forget the sky is blue? Oh wait, that's not relevant to this discussion either ;-)

InD

Oh, did everyone forget about the flip side? By using those "free" connections it exposes you to the owner of the connection. That is also a new way for others to get into your PC. They put these seemingly open and free access and sit back and collect the info.

[Sunshine2585]

Oh, did everyone forget the sky is blue? Oh wait, that's not relevant to this discussion either ;-)

InD

And the point of that was? Bayb was pointing out something that is relevant to the discussion about wireless internet and connecting to unsecured networks. People who do connect to unsecured networks might not have realised that the owner of the network can get into their computer. So bayb's comment did add something to the discussion. But what colour the sky is doesn't add anything. I think that everyone would already know that. And anyone that didn't know wouldn't be looking at a topic about wireless networks to find it out.

[InD]

Perhaps I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, but it had nothing to do with the discussion on ethics and morality of using an open wireless access point. To me it was off topic. I don't think many people looking for wireless security advice would be searching a diaper site for advice. It is more of a scare mongering statement anyhow. Only through a bit of hacking work could a person gain control / access to your computer if it was on an open AP. At the same time a person with the ability to do so more than likely knows how to punch a hole through a secured AP so it's a moot point.

InD

And the point of that was? Bayb was pointing out something that is relevant to the discussion about wireless internet and connecting to unsecured networks. People who do connect to unsecured networks might not have realised that the owner of the network can get into their computer. So bayb's comment did add something to the discussion. But what colour the sky is doesn't add anything. I think that everyone would already know that. And anyone that didn't know wouldn't be looking at a topic about wireless networks to find it out.

[DollyDiaper]

Perhaps I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, but it had nothing to do with the discussion on ethics and morality of using an open wireless access point. To me it was off topic. I don't think many people looking for wireless security advice would be searching a diaper site for advice. It is more of a scare mongering statement anyhow. Only through a bit of hacking work could a person gain control / access to your computer if it was on an open AP. At the same time a person with the ability to do so more than likely knows how to punch a hole through a secured AP so it's a moot point.

InD

I'm inclined to believe that the point made by bayb and subsequently supported by Sunshine is not irrelevant to this discussion, as you've stated above InD.

Indeed, I think it goes even further than the ethics and morality argument and challenges the illegality issue because it goes into the area of Incitement/Agent Provocateur.

D lly