OK I am a bit lost here.

[babykeiff]

44 minutes ago, spark said:

...  You could have chosen to make me an ally, and help you.  Instead, you choose to make it adversarial and accuse me of being a slave master...

Please get your facts somewhat right! My first post on this topic -

On 12/3/2022 at 10:19 PM, babykeiff said:

This, to me, seems like a case of finding another task to pass onto a minimum paid worker - that is if even this employee is getting paid. Some of these people are clased as 'interns' and therfore not getting paid. A paraprofessional is really a term for an unskilled member of staff. These people are the 'trainee' and/or 'apprentice' to a specific skillset. The only difference between a paraprofessional and a professional is that the para- has not yet got their licence or full qualification.

This type of 'passing the job to a trainee' rather than have the 'licence holder' and/or 'qualified person' perform the task is a way of business' handling the tasks required without exposing themselves to discriminatory and/or unfair work condition cases from people who can easily afford legal actions.

... and your reply ...

On 12/5/2022 at 6:48 AM, spark said:

Again, I'm playing my expert card here.

First of all, Para-educators are the unheralded heroes of the special education world.   They are underpaid and work their a's off. however, their job is to do whatever needs to be done.    My para will spend the next two weeks trying to get finals from GE teachers who think they are useless peons, and then getting them back to those teachers so they can grade the test and give our kids credit.    It's a thankless job, and FTR- if you suck at the job- please let me do it,    From a teacher standpoint, a good para is your right hand, and a bad para is an anchor

But with that being said, that's their job.  They do what needs to be done.  As unrealistic as it is in my position, if I ever had a student who needed that level of support, it would have to fall on the para-educator. Given the age issues, I could put myself in jeopardy if I did

I'm very pro-union, and I've been under whistleblower protections.   However, in my expert opinion, if you're a para-educator assigned to a teacher who has a need to support their toileting- you're responsible for that task.  That's their job.

... where you tried to discriminate against people...

a good para is your right hand, and a bad para is an anchor

and then tried to use my opinion against me.

Now you are trying to state that I was adversial instead of supporting your opinions. I WILL NOT SUPPORT ANY OPINION THAT DISCRIMINATES AGAINST ANOTHER, EITHER DIRECT OR INDIRECT.

You are either part of the solution or part of the problem - and your comments tell me that you are part of the problem. You state that the salaries I listed were incorrect, and I found a listing from the US. You state I do not know what I am talking about, and that has been disproven. You are talkign about para-educators and the topic is about para professionals... and you try and convince people that there is a difference. That difference is in your head. Each 'para' is being treated like sh*t by people like you and others, and YOU CAN'T SEE THAT. I do not know how your schools gets away with this - I am not a legal expert - but in the rest of the world if a non medically qualified person even attempts to assist a dependant persons medically prescribed device, they would end up in prison. Never mind that, if one attempts to assist another - i.e. heimlich manoeuvre - which is used to assist another from choking etc., it is a person performing a medical procedure without authorisation.

Even the original poster identified that there used to be Teachers Aides and School Nurses... but in your limited expert opinion, school districts can't afford them today - that maybe true in your little corner of the world, but not worldwide.

You now ask about teachers salaries worldwide... why not ask about 'educators' salaries - your term - or would the position that you should be refering to be a Special Needs Teacher? The salaries I quoted was for medically qualified personel, not US educators who spend their day getting kids to memorize multiple choice answers. The US, according to many US sites, rank first, second or third although they rank 38th worldwide in mathematical disipline, and 24th in English!.The top countries educationally are Singapore; Canada; Iceland; Sweeden; Denmark; Slovinia; France; Norway; Belgium; Finland; Ireland; United Kingdom... and if you know how to use Google, you can find that list. Even if you don't the first eleven countries avoid the use of multiple-choice examinations. It is no wonder why US teachers are paid so low. They are replaced if they can't get a large percentage of children up the grade. As a result, US children can handle multiple choice, but have very little to no knowledge on details of the subject.

You are so insitant on trying to belittle everything people state, that you miss the detail!

At this stage, I am wasting my time trying to educate you. As you have proven, you are incapable of learning.

 

   

[babykeiff]

On 11/22/2022 at 3:46 PM, ValentinesStuff said:

https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/news/education/2022/11/21/new-bedford-paraprofessionals-file-complaint-against-diaper-duties/69653476007/

 

New Bedford paraprofessionals file complaint after district adds new duty: changing diapers

 

Umm, is this really a thing? It sounds like a bad AB story.

 

A quick Wikipedia check put the population at around 100K, and about 25% 18 or under. So figure about 1500 of each year, and we're talking about 7 grades, so maybe 10000 students. Just how many of these students are in diapers? 

I do not know why you are 'a bit lost here' ....

It is YOUR country

YOUR education system....

YOUR political system.

Either like it, or change it... or is that too difficult for you?

[spark]

56 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

At this stage, I am wasting my time trying to educate you. As you have proven, you are incapable of learning.

Let me get this straight.  You, who have ZERO sources, and as of yet-has admitted to having any qualification in special education are stating that you are wasting your time trying to educate me in something I've done for 20 years, and have provided sources.   Guess what- you are wasting your time because I know more about this than YOU DO.   The only reason that I'm responding to you is that it's fun to expose trolls? .  I'm a 53-year-old male sitting wet diaper with f-up knees and crappy eyesight.   At the same token- this just very day- one  of former students (who is now in 30-years old) and I gave him advice- because I don't suck at this.

If had any experience in special education, you would value my opinion, as I would yours.  It's why I value @Personalias opinion.   FTR- I also value @Nat experience as a former student- even though her experience is different than my class.

 

[ValentinesStuff]

41 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

I do not know why you are 'a bit lost here' ....

It is YOUR country

YOUR education system....

YOUR political system.

Either like it, or change it... or is that too difficult for you?

While it may be my country. It is not my educational system, I live in another state, nor for the same reason is it my political system, nor can I change it.

 

As for why I was lost, I had never encountered the term paraprofessional, so I did not know what one was, nor could I understand how the job of either assisting with or changing the diaper of a student could be such a widespread issue in a school district.

[babykeiff]

8 hours ago, ValentinesStuff said:

While it may be my country. It is not my educational system, I live in another state, nor for the same reason is it my political system, nor can I change it.

 

As for why I was lost, I had never encountered the term paraprofessional, so I did not know what one was, nor could I understand how the job of either assisting with or changing the diaper of a student could be such a widespread issue in a school district.

The issue is not limited to paraprofessional. It is in relation to discrimination and how it is been hidden / stepped over / accepted by certain people.

As I stated, if one is not part of the solution, they are part of the problem. - misquote by Eldridge Cleaver. Original Quotation "There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem"

What this means is that one cannot 'sit on the fence' when an issue of discrimination exists. In your district/area, there used to be Teacher's Aides AND School Nurses. Both roles have been eliminated to create the paraprofessional, an underpaid overworked slave - which if the teachers / educators are not fighting against this role, they are agreeing with it and supporting it. Why has this role been created - cause it is much cheaper to overwork people than to treat people with respect. This is echoed in your employment laws.

The US is full of this type of discrimination - all in favour of the almighty dollar! I am surprised that there is not a church / religious group / religion of the dollar, as that is all that is missing here.

This is a country that elected an idiotic self serving, money grabbing fool to be their worldwide public representive... someone who would have failed a kindergarden entry test (if one existed). This is a country of people that think that they are the centre of the world; a country made up mostly of immigrants and refugees - very few actual Americans exist, the immigrants and refugees killed them, and then decided to wipe out most of the countries natural resources - who will attack their own offspring / relations / family by invading other countries worldwide. This is a country where even the telephone service and electric service is not cordinated.... it is run by multiple different suppliers on multiple different systems.

If you are in America and not white, wealthy, and normal (as defined by whomever is in government at the time) your life expectancy and career choices are severely restricted.

In Europe, we have a free court system called European Court of Human Rights, where we fight and die to protect the rights of the indvidual, where our security services do not go out of their way to attack a different race / gender / religion. It is the opposite - we go out of our way to defend and protect these people. We also have G.D.P.R. / Data Protection Act where we fight to protect and insure peoples privacy. The US does not. In fact, most information on any citizen of the US is publically available - and what little is protected in the US, your N.S.A. bypass it.

... and you laugh at me! I pity you.

 

 

[willnotwill]

 My wife was a special ed assistant and then teachers.   Neither those nor the school nurse are (in their district) tasked with getting kids into the bathrooms or changing diapers.   They have specific paras for that.    They do work on strategies to get kids functional.   At one point they decided it was time to get this older kid into goodnites.   The teacher is looking at one and thinking it's pretty small.   My wife grabs it and starts pulling on it saying they look pretty stretchy.   She was avoiding saying "They fit my husband, they should fit little Jeffy."   (The teacher knew me, too).

 

[babykeiff]

6 minutes ago, willnotwill said:

 My wife was a special ed assistant and then teachers.   Neither those nor the school nurse are (in their district) tasked with getting kids into the bathrooms or changing diapers.   They have specific paras for that.    They do work on strategies to get kids functional.   At one point they decided it was time to get this older kid into goodnites.   The teacher is looking at one and thinking it's pretty small.   My wife grabs it and starts pulling on it saying they look pretty stretchy.   She was avoiding saying "They fit my husband, they should fit little Jeffy."   (The teacher knew me, too).

 

How would you have handled it if your wife had said that! Human nature would state that your wife and the teacher laughed about that later... (sorry man)

[ValentinesStuff]

@babykeiff Discrimination. “You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means”

 

First of all, you'll note a few posts back I posted links to both Paraprofessional and Teacher's Aide jobs. So the Teacher's Aide has not been eliminated. I did leave off a link to a "Para eductor" job. 

 

As for the rest of your ill educated rant. You argue like an extremist, as soon as someone points out that you are wrong, you start arguing something else until you come around back to the beginning.

 

Someone said the worked with good and bad paraprofessionals. Completely believable, in every job I've had in the past 40 years or so, I've had outstanding bosses, coworkers, and/or subordinates. I've also had incompetent bosses, coworkers, and subordinates. It's the way things are. Some got promoted or went to better jobs, some got fired. Some were good people despite being incompetent at their jobs. Others were horrible people despite being extremely competent. 

 

Describing someone's ability or inability to do the job they voluntarily applied for and were hired to do is not discrimination. 

[babykeiff]

4 hours ago, ValentinesStuff said:

@babykeiff Discrimination. “You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means”

 

First of all, you'll note a few posts back I posted links to both Paraprofessional and Teacher's Aide jobs. So the Teacher's Aide has not been eliminated. I did leave off a link to a "Para eductor" job. 

 

As for the rest of your ill educated rant. You argue like an extremist, as soon as someone points out that you are wrong, you start arguing something else until you come around back to the beginning.

 

Someone said the worked with good and bad paraprofessionals. Completely believable, in every job I've had in the past 40 years or so, I've had outstanding bosses, coworkers, and/or subordinates. I've also had incompetent bosses, coworkers, and subordinates. It's the way things are. Some got promoted or went to better jobs, some got fired. Some were good people despite being incompetent at their jobs. Others were horrible people despite being extremely competent. 

 

Describing someone's ability or inability to do the job they voluntarily applied for and were hired to do is not discrimination. 

Point 1 - Is the self defined expert working, as he identified, for the last 20 years, with paraprofessionals?

Point 2 - Has he done ANYTHING to correct that inbalance, or is he just 'sitting on the fence mouthing off about it'?

Point 3 - Has America done anything about that imbalance? We in Europe have. You say that it is not in your state, so it is not your problem. That is a pathetic excuse for not doing anything - and I will not accept that from anyone.

6 hours ago, babykeiff said:

As I stated, if one is not part of the solution, they are part of the problem. - misquote by Eldridge Cleaver. Original Quotation "There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem

[spark]

6 hours ago, babykeiff said:

Point 1 - Is the self defined expert working, as he identified, for the last 20 years, with paraprofessionals?

Point 2 - Has he done ANYTHING to correct that inbalance, or is he just 'sitting on the fence mouthing off about it'?.

You are a true idiot

I have no idea what you mean by an imbalance.  

FTR- my para and I are a team.   I have a different para in each class, and two of them are invaluable.  The third one was out, and to be honest- it was easier for me when he was out.   This is the nature of working with another adult in your classroom.

[babykeiff]

1 hour ago, spark said:

You are a true idiot

... as opposed to a false one. You make me cringe.

1 hour ago, spark said:

...I have no idea what you mean ...

First truth you have admitted... you have NO IDEA - which makes this conversation futile. As stated, I pity you.

[spark]

3 hours ago, babykeiff said:

... as opposed to a false one. You make me cringe.

First truth you have admitted... you have NO IDEA - which makes this conversation futile. As stated, I pity you.

Ok, now you're being personal.  YOU DON'T EVEN F-ING KNOW ME.   You're accusing me of being cringeworthy.  WTF did I do to deserve that?  Even when you were told by multiple people that you're wrong- you go on the offensive.   And got into personal attacks.

STOP!  You wanted to get a reaction out of me.  You have.  You win.   You're a troll, and that's what you wanted. You derailed this conversation and made it about you.  I hope you're happy

[willnotwill]

17 hours ago, babykeiff said:

How would you have handled it if your wife had said that! Human nature would state that your wife and the teacher laughed about that later... (sorry man)

I think it probably would have embarrassed her more than me.

 

[babykeiff]

22 hours ago, willnotwill said:

 My wife was a special ed assistant and then teachers.   Neither those nor the school nurse are (in their district) tasked with getting kids into the bathrooms or changing diapers.   They have specific paras for that....

 

I missed that point.

In your district, is the "para" assigned to the nursing staff OR the teaching staff? If nursing, then they should have the relevant medical qualifications to change diapers etc. If they don't then it seems that that district is working at merging the roles of Teaching Assistant (your wife's title of Special Ed. Assistant) with that of the School Nurse - which is unfair and discrimination*. It has already being identified that the "para" salary and treatment, by others here, is below that of a relevant Nurse / medically qualified personel.

Exposing staff to tasks where they can face legal action for their own human error / mistake IS manipulation and discrimination. A "para" perfoming medical procedures* on/for children under the direction of a School, is 'exposed'. If a "para" is working under direction of a Nurse / Medically qualified personel, they are insured and covered. However, if they are not, then it is the individual who is liable. One CANNOT trust the school to protect their employees.

*Medical Procedures

• Changing Diapers
• Applying diaper cream etc.
• Adjusting Medically prescribed devices - leg braces etc.
• Adjusting feeding tubes / breathing devices etc.

plus plus - the list goes on.

Discrimination - and how it applies with "para" employees.

• Creating a work environment at potential cost to the employee, and at a gain to the employer.
• Failing to provide adequate support / training / protection to employees.
• Failing to accept 100% of liability for the actions / mis-actions of employees.
• Having an unqualified person (in this case, a teacher *(non medically qualified)) instruct another on a medical procedure.

Everyone

A contract of employment ONLY states that the employee is paid to perform the instructions of his/her employer. The employee may be able to alter the task details, but 100% of the liability is on the sholders of the employeer, not the employee. In certain school districts, para-employees etc. are being tasked to perform medical procedures without the relevant worldwide qualifications of medical personel - which must at least include one of the following :- MD ;PhD; MCM; MMedSc; MMed; MPH; CNA; LPN; RN; APRN; or the relevant local equivilant.

Some people here do not understand this since they have been in collusion with their relevant school for so long, they have forgotten what they are doing. The last item, in bold on the list, is what certain teachers / educators are doing on a constant basis.

Historically, people have tried unsucessfully to do this. Hitler instructed his Generals to round up, intimidate and murder millions of people. @Personalias, @spark, @ValentinesStuff Who was responsible - Hitler alone, or did it include everyone along the list? The reasons are immaterial. Are you going to laugh at this? That is why I pity you.

As stated - you are either part of the problem, or part of the solution. Denying that the problem exists is similar to what an Ostrich does - bury it's head in the sand.

Equality only exists when everyone is treated equal. Otherwise, it is just fiction.

[willnotwill]

Give me a break.  I don't know what country you are on, but the first three things you list are not "medical procedures."    The para tasked with changing diapers, helping kids to the bathroom, etc... does not need any sort of certification.

The rest of your comments don't seem to make much sense.   What cost to the employee?  The employee is getting paid and in most cases they are being paid for what they were hired to do.   In most districts while teachers may be under contract (that is widely exploited), most of the paras are not.  They're just at will employees.

I'm not getting your alleged discrimination issues at all and anybody who Godwins a thraed has already lost what sliver of credibility they might have had.

[ValentinesStuff]

7 hours ago, babykeiff said:

Equality only exists when everyone is treated equal. Otherwise, it is just fiction.

 

If we are treating everyone equally, then anyone can perform medical procedures, you don't need a medical professional.

[babykeiff]

4 hours ago, willnotwill said:

Give me a break.  I don't know what country you are on, but the first three things you list are not "medical procedures."    The para tasked with changing diapers, helping kids to the bathroom, etc... does not need any sort of certification.

The rest of your comments don't seem to make much sense.   What cost to the employee?  The employee is getting paid and in most cases they are being paid for what they were hired to do.   In most districts while teachers may be under contract (that is widely exploited), most of the paras are not.  They're just at will employees.

I'm not getting your alleged discrimination issues at all and anybody who Godwins a thraed has already lost what sliver of credibility they might have had.

Your description, and the common view in US is "They're just at will employees." who is reporting to a Teacher / Educator, not a medically qualified / trained individual. What they are doing is listed in the job specification by @ValentinesStuff post of 12/10/2022 (US date fomat) - attached

without :-

• medical qualifications
• medical training
• medical / malpractice insurance

and can be terminated at will if they either don't do the task OR fail to do the task correctly as instructed by a Teacher/Educator and/or a School Principle - and nobody in this list has the relevant medical qualifications and may not have the medical knowledge.

As @ValentinesStuff has identified, the paraprofessional may be on the way to getting the relevant certification and/or licencee, but this unlicenceed/uncertified person is being directed/instructed by, in clerical parlance, a lay-person.

 

On 12/10/2022 at 3:40 PM, ValentinesStuff said:

Responsibilities

•

To assist the teacher in achieving teaching objectives by working with individual students, small groups, or whole classrooms to help students achieve the skill levels of the class as a whole

•

To provide a well-organized, smoothly functioning class environment in which students can take full advantage of the instructional program and available resource materials

•

Support the Mission Statement of the district

•

Behave and speak in a professional manner at all times

•

Set a good example in terms of dress, punctuality, and attendance

•

Be proactive in matters relating to health and safety

•

Staff member will effectively perform the following duties in a timely manner:

•

Administer, score, and record such achievement and diagnostic tests as the teacher

•

Work with individual students or small groups of students to reinforce learning of material or skills initially introduced by the teacher

•

This could include assessing student work or assessments/progress monitoring

•

Assist the teacher in devising special strategies for reinforcing material or skills based on a sympathetic understanding of individual students, their needs, interests, and abilities

•

Help students master equipment or instructional materials assigned by the teacher

•

Guide independent study, enrichment work, and remedial work set up and assigned by the teacher

•

Assist with the supervision of students during duties (i.e. recess, lunch, arrival and dismissal) and other situations such as emergency drills, assemblies, play periods, and field trips

•

Assist with such large group activities as drill work, reading aloud, and story telling

•

Read to students, listen to students read, and participate in other forms of oral communication with students

•

Check notebooks, correct papers, and supervise testing and make-up work as assigned by the teacher

•

Assists students in and out of wheelchairs; transporting students in their wheelchairs in and around school and on field trips for the purpose of ensuring the student gets to and from school and to the proper places safely

•

Assist with medical needs, such as diabetic students, after training by a health care provider has been provided, for the purposes of meeting immediate health care needs

•

Assist in tending to children’s daily living activities (toileting, diapering, washing, etc)

•

Applies and removes physical therapy appliances as instructed (e.g. body braces, leg braces, etc) for the purpose of ensuring the student has the proper equipment according to the IEP plan

•

Assists students by enabling them to access their electronic communicators, switches, pointers, feeders, etc. for the purpose of ensuring equipment is hooked up properly and functioning properly

•

Teach socially acceptable behavior, employing techniques such as behavior modification and positive reinforcement

•

Model and facilitate positive behavior and interactions between students and teacher as well as between students

•

Alert the regular teacher to any problem or special information about an individual student

•

Serve as the chief source of information and help to any substitute teacher assigned in the absence of the regular teacher

•

Maintain the same high level of ethical behavior and confidentiality of information about students as is expected of fully licensed teachers

•

Participate in inservice training programs as assigned

•

Other responsibilities as assigned by supervisor

•

Outdoor schoolyard and grounds, field trips: exposure to temperatures (hot, warm, cool & cold) and exposure to mowed grass

•

Regular work attendance

 

4 hours ago, willnotwill said:

...I'm not getting your alleged discrimination issues at all...

Do you think that it is fair and reasonable to expect an "at will employee" to perform any medical procedure (yes you can debate that there is medical procedures being carried out, yet touching any medically prescribed device is a medical procedure) where they are not protected against malpractice - and if they refuse, can be terminated without recourse - where the instructions to do same comes from another 'non medically certified person'?

I don't, and in Europe, we protect employees from being put in this very situation - the Principal, the Teacher/Educator, and the Paraprofessional, and one of the ways is that all concerned hold some form of medical qualification for the job they are doing / responsible for.

Is your wife, now identified as a teacher, covered with some form of malpractice insurance - I doubt that. Therefore, if an error occurs with a child in her class, is she fully protected. What would happen to her if one parent decides to sue her, or the para for malpractice due to incorrectly / failure to connect a medically prescribed device to their son/daughter? I know we wish that would never happen, but as you identified, the teachers contract widley exploites the teachers. Do you really think that the school would protect your wife in this case.

Can you see the problem here - as I can. The problem is that an employee / employees is/are being placed in a situation where they are fully exposed to the whims of the clients of the business. This is where the business is shirking its responsibilities to save a few bucks, at the cost of employees. Is that not discrimination?

4 hours ago, willnotwill said:

...anybody who Godwins a thraed...

That was not my intention, I apologize and withdraw the comparison. I will not remove the reference in that post, as to do so, in my humble opinion, would be trying to hide a mistake. I fully accept, and own that error. 

[ValentinesStuff]

@babykeiff STOP deliberately misquoting me. The job listing for the Paraprofessional required certification beforehand, the job listing for Teacher's Aide did not.

 

You have deliberately misquoted me multiple times here, stop doing it.

[babykeiff]

@ValentinesStuff insits that a paraprofessional IS certified. Others here, plus multiple dictionary definitions contradict that.

16 minutes ago, ValentinesStuff said:

 

If we are treating everyone equally, then anyone can perform medical procedures, you don't need a medical professional.

If you needed a heart bypass, would you let a non medically certified person like the local plumber do that to/on you - after all, it is simply a bit of plumbing, sewing a few pipes and tubes together 

- OR -

would you seek an experinced cardiologist with the relevant skills, expertise and licencee to do that simple task?

I refer to it being a simple task as, to the relevant trained and experienced expert, it is simple. To one without the relevant expertise, it is too easy to make a critical mistake, and they not know that they made a mistake until after you are dead....

This is, after all, YOUR choice!

[ValentinesStuff]

I posted documentary evidence that where I live Paraprofessionals are required to be certified, I made no claims about other locations. That is what you really don't understand about the United States. What one State has as law, doesn't mean anything in another State. They are completely different jurisdictions. 

 

16 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

@ValentinesStuff insits that a paraprofessional IS certified. Others here, plus multiple dictionary definitions contradict that.

If you needed a heart bypass, would you let a non medically certified person like the local plumber do that to/on you - after all, it is simply a bit of plumbing, sewing a few pipes and tubes together 

- OR -

would you seek an experinced cardiologist with the relevant skills, expertise and licencee to do that simple task?

I refer to it being a simple task as, to the relevant trained and experienced expert, it is simple. To one without the relevant expertise, it is too easy to make a critical mistake, and they not know that they made a mistake until after you are dead....

This is, after all, YOUR choice!

 

So, based on that medical argument, I would want a Certified Paraprofessional, as required in the State I live in, to do the job of a Paraprofessional, not an uncertified layman. With all of the duties and responsibilities listed.

 

 

BTW at what age does changing a diaper become a medical procedure requiring a licensed professional to do it? And does a professional AB mommy count?

[babykeiff]

31 minutes ago, ValentinesStuff said:

So, based on that medical argument, I would want a Certified Paraprofessional, as required in the State I live in, to do the job of a Paraprofessional, not an uncertified layman. With all of the duties and responsibilities listed.

So, in your opinion,

31 minutes ago, ValentinesStuff said:

based on that medical argument

55 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

...If you needed a heart bypass, would you let a non medically certified person like the local plumber do that to/on you - after all, it is simply a bit of plumbing, sewing a few pipes and tubes together 

- OR -

would you seek an experinced cardiologist with the relevant skills, expertise and licencee to do that simple task?

a certified paraprofessional,

31 minutes ago, ValentinesStuff said:

I would want a Certified Paraprofessional, as required in the State I live in,

can perform a heart bypass on you!

These are YOUR words - verbatim.

If, as you specify, that is required in the State you live in, in the interest of your health and safety, I suggest that you move to a different State before* you need medical intervention.

before* - considering your statement, it could be debatable if this is before you need medical intevention.

[spark]

20 minutes ago, ValentinesStuff said:

I posted documentary evidence that where I live Paraprofessionals are required to be certified, I made no claims about other locations. That is what you really don't understand about the United States. What one State has as law, doesn't mean anything in another State. They are completely different jurisdictions. 

Our friend is immune to sources.  He doesn't believe in them as evidenced by his lack of sources, as well as in his ability to respond to sources.   Essentially, every fact-based statement that he has made isn't verified, or true.     I have a cousin who is a Principal at an elementary school in Norway, with no medical training.   His wife teaches, and she doesn't have medical training.   BTW- this is the most that our friend can read, so anything I write after this will be ignored.   We beaten his side-rant long past death, and it's basically a pool of glue now.

 

To bring this derailment to the original point (we didn't beat that horse to a pulp).   Yes, there are students who require diaper changes at secondary schools.   They usually are in a mod/severe class, and paraeducators do have the responsibility to change students should they need it.   It is rare, but i asked one of my paras if she was ever assigned to a mod/severe class.  He response was, "Yes, and I got tired of changing diapers."  She then said that she shouldn't have changed diapers as a sub because she wasn't trained to change a teenage boy.  If you have a student who is not in the most severe classroom, it's unlikely they will need a diaper changed.  If you are, most kids will need to have their diapers changed.

4 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

So, in your opinion,

 

a certified paraprofessional,

can perform a heart bypass on you!

These are YOUR words - verbatim.

If, as you specify, that is required in the State you live in, in the interest of your health and safety, I suggest that you move to a different State before* you need medical intervention.

before* - considering your statement, it could be debatable if this is before you need medical intevention.

[Personalias]

@sparkNot only does someone not know what paraprofessional means, but they also don't know what "verbatim" means either.  

[ValentinesStuff]

57 minutes ago, babykeiff said:

So, in your opinion,

 

a certified paraprofessional,

can perform a heart bypass on you!

These are YOUR words - verbatim.

If, as you specify, that is required in the State you live in, in the interest of your health and safety, I suggest that you move to a different State before* you need medical intervention.

before* - considering your statement, it could be debatable if this is before you need medical intevention.

 

Sigh, yet again you misquote me.

I said:

1 hour ago, ValentinesStuff said:

I would want a Certified Paraprofessional, as required in the State I live in, to do the job of a Paraprofessional,

Now where in the list of duties of a Paraprofessional is performing a heart bypass?

[Elfy]

I'm asking everyone to calm down. This discussion does not need people to be insulting each other or being overly aggressive in replies. Agree to disagree, that is fine. There is no need for so much hostility.

Please try to be civil or the thread will have to be locked.