My untraining journal

[playwithfire]

So, this is a strong fetish for me.  This is the second or third time I have played with untraining.  Intellectually, I feel that I am just playing with this and I strongly suspect that I will stop or seriously reduce the intensity of my untraining, or retrain, well before the point of no return.  However, it is the thrill of going too far, of public embarrassment, that is a big part of what is driving me.

I am currently listening to lots of hypnosis.  I am full time in diapers for about 60 hours from Saturday evening until I have to go back to work on Tuesday.  During the work week I am in diapers about 14 or 15 hours a day, and I am sleeping in diapers.

I am trying to achieve bed wetting since that supposedly is difficult to impossible to reverse and then your daily control can diminish including FI.

I have been playing at this for about 3 weeks.  Interestingly, the idea of wearing diapers to work and when I am out is creeping into my thinking which is something I didn't think I would consider.

I don't think I can be dissuaded from this because intellectually, I certainly understand that achieving any real incontinence or diaper dependence would be a big mistake for my life.  However, that danger makes it even more attractive.

I have the resources and the isolation to get myself in some real trouble here. 

Anyways, I feel that journaling here reinforces the untraining.  I don't know how often I will post, or if there is any interest outside of my own.  Feel free to ask me questions or give advice.  Thanks for reading.  I know this is a bit redundant from another post I made, but someone recommended a separate thread for this journaling.

[zzyzx]

39 minutes ago, playwithfire said:

So, this is a strong fetish for me.  ...

I don't think I can be dissuaded from this because intellectually, I certainly understand that achieving any real incontinence or diaper dependence would be a big mistake for my life.  However, that danger makes it even more attractive.

I have the resources and the isolation to get myself in some real trouble here.

@playwithfire

So, do you want any one discouraging you from proceeding too far, or just support in going too far? Looks like mentally you are mixed on this decision, but also leaning toward needing to go too far....

[playwithfire]

3 minutes ago, zzyzx said:

@playwithfire

So, do you want any one discouraging you from proceeding too far, or just support in going too far? Looks like mentally you are mixed on this decision, but also leaning toward needing to go too far....

It would be more fun and exciting to be encouraged to go too far.  I don't think I can be discouraged effectively here other than being told to go away and not post.  People can post whatever they want though. 

I definitely want to go too far, but don't really believe that will happen, if that makes sense.

[zzyzx]

35 minutes ago, playwithfire said:

It would be more fun and exciting to be encouraged to go too far.  I don't think I can be discouraged effectively here other than being told to go away and not post.  People can post whatever they want though.

OK.  I'll drop off this thread and let others respond.

35 minutes ago, playwithfire said:

I definitely want to go too far, but don't really believe that will happen, if that makes sense.

Understand.  For most folks it will take some time before it might happen.....  And since you have already played in this area, your probably "normal" on this front.

Best wishes and take care.....

[oznl]

9 hours ago, playwithfire said:

Intellectually, I feel that I am just playing with this and I strongly suspect that I will stop or seriously reduce the intensity of my untraining, or retrain, well before the point of no return. 

That's what I thought when I went 24/7 back in late 2018.  It's amazing how flexible the goal post of "too far" can become and for me at least, one "point of no return" (bedwetting) could only be clearly seen through the rear vision mirror, not the windshield.  By the time I realised that bedwetting was on the cards, I was a serial bedwetter.

[playwithfire]

The night before last, I was able to pee lying down on my right side for the first time.  Last night, I was able to pee lying down on my left side for the first time and peeing while lying down on my right side was easy.  Previously, I had only been able to pee lying on my back.

[playwithfire]

4 hours ago, oznl said:

That's what I thought when I went 24/7 back in late 2018.  It's amazing how flexible the goal post of "too far" can become and for me at least, one "point of no return" (bedwetting) could only be clearly seen through the rear vision mirror, not the windshield.  By the time I realised that bedwetting was on the cards, I was a serial bedwetter.

Did you ever try and retrain for not bed wetting?

[oznl]

30 minutes ago, playwithfire said:

Did you ever try and retrain for not bed wetting?

No.  To be honest, it doesn't really bother me that much.  I kind of like never being woken by my bladder.  I've been wetting here and there for about 18 months but a few months ago, the frequency of bedwetting rapidly accelerated so now it's pretty regular.

[playwithfire]

Here is an affirmation I say repeatedly.  I try to think it as well.  I try to say it as if it is true.

 

I am a bed wetter.  I have to wear diapers.  I helplessly wet and mess automatically, at all times, when I am awake and when I am asleep.

[Kif]

45 minutes ago, playwithfire said:

Here is an affirmation I say repeatedly.  I try to think it as well.  I try to say it as if it is true.

 

I am a bed wetter.  I have to wear diapers.  I helplessly wet and mess automatically, at all times, when I am awake and when I am asleep.

I can relate to repeating ideas like this to yourself. Hypnosis. Affirmations. CBT. They're just enforcing habits and letting you change how you view yourself. 

Interesting choice of words -- how you started this with "I am a bedwetter" and then added the daytime stuff.

Do you think that will change? The order of those words? 

Do you keep a private journal? If you want my advice...I recommend it. It has certainly surprised me how things change...and how they don't. And in subtle ways, in both cases. Put all this in perspective, for me.

[playwithfire]

I have some washable bed under pads ordered.  I believe these will help me progress since they will make me feel more secure in bed wetting.

50 minutes ago, Kif said:

I can relate to repeating ideas like this to yourself. Hypnosis. Affirmations. CBT. They're just enforcing habits and letting you change how you view yourself. 

Interesting choice of words -- how you started this with "I am a bedwetter" and then added the daytime stuff.

Do you think that will change? The order of those words? 

Do you keep a private journal? If you want my advice...I recommend it. It has certainly surprised me how things change...and how they don't. And in subtle ways, in both cases. Put all this in perspective, for me.

The affirmation can be rearranged a number of ways to keep in engaging. 

Thanks for the advice about keeping a private journal.  I have tried before unsuccessfully.  I believe if I continue to record some of my progress and thoughts here it will have some of the same effect.

[playwithfire]

Had a more difficult time wetting after going to bed last night.  I didn't listen to bedwetting hypnosis.  I am going to prioritize listening to bed wetting hypnosis daily.   Also, I will drink more water before going to bed.

[playwithfire]

FWIW, one of the hypnosis files I am using daily is Bedwetting from Baby pants.  I believe it helps and also I try to not have any expectation other than using it consistently may have an effect.

[Little Sherri]

I've been 24/7 for almost exactly 3 years, and am coming around to agreeing with my friend and mentor, @oznl, as to bedwetting being the primary hidden trap on this road; I don't think that daytime incontinence is an abyss I'm going to plummet into anytime soon. Whereas bedwetting is a slope that I'm inching down with a blindfold on. So far, it isn't very steep, but I can't see what's coming. 

Another slope to be wary of is your evolving perception of what you can get away with and how good you are at being a discreet "diapernaut". The beginning of my wearing-all-day, every-day journey was characterized by an excess of anxiety about how much attention people paid to my mid-section. I wore slim, quiet diapers that weren't great, but that I felt were the only option that wouldn't be noticed. However, eventually I realized that, first of all, leaks are more noticeable than bulk or muffled plastic noises, and, second, people see what they're expecting to see, and when most people look at a middle-aged man in loose jeans, they are not looking for a diaper. It's just not on the radar. 

However, the precipice that I realized I was inching up to was a belief that nobody would ever see or suspect I was wearing a diaper. For the most part, that continues to be the case, but I have been caught out a couple of times, once by a transparent hospital gown, and once while walking my dog in a big diaper under shorts that weren't heavy enough, on what I expected to be a private walk in the woods, when I ended up running into a neighbour. I've also been undone a couple of times by camera footage, for example, of me swinging a golf club, where the purpose was analyzing my (crappy) swing, but a side effect was, at least for me, a realization that the Megamax I was in was not invisible to the unblinking eye. But that said, nobody else seems to have seen it. I go back to the adage that people see what they expect to see. 

All of which is to say that it is very possible to wear diapers all the time and for nobody to know about it, but, you have to be careful not to get TOO confident. I'll also throw in one more caveat, which is that, while it is possible for people who know you very well to never know you wear diapers, keeping it from the people you live with is another matter, and one that takes a lot of planning and ongoing care. Although that doesn't sound like an issue for you. 

This has been an interesting read. 

[playwithfire]

4 hours ago, Little Sherri said:

I've been 24/7 for almost exactly 3 years, and am coming around to agreeing with my friend and mentor, @oznl, as to bedwetting being the primary hidden trap on this road; I don't think that daytime incontinence is an abyss I'm going to plummet into anytime soon. Whereas bedwetting is a slope that I'm inching down with a blindfold on. So far, it isn't very steep, but I can't see what's coming. 

I really like the way you put that.  I believe that bed wetting is more possible for me to achieve, since it can be done hidden from the outside world ( for a time anyways) and the difficulty in reversing it ( from what I have read ) makes it particularly attractive and exciting.  I have also read that bed wetting erodes daytime continence as well.  The danger is the fun and excitement.

 

4 hours ago, Little Sherri said:

All of which is to say that it is very possible to wear diapers all the time and for nobody to know about it, but, you have to be careful not to get TOO confident. I'll also throw in one more caveat, which is that, while it is possible for people who know you very well to never know you wear diapers, keeping it from the people you live with is another matter, and one that takes a lot of planning and ongoing care. Although that doesn't sound like an issue for you. 

The idea of getting found out is terrifying to me. Again, that is what makes it so exciting.  At this moment, I believe my desire to remain discreet out weighs the attraction to the thrill of being found out.  I am doing several things to alter my sub conscious, so who knows what is really going on behind the scenes

4 hours ago, Little Sherri said:

This has been an interesting read. 

I am glad you have found it interesting and I appreciate your response.

[playwithfire]

Progress bit by bit.  It is getting easier to wet in different positions including lying down on my back and either side, while sitting and while walking.  I now have absorbent bed pads making me feel more secure in wetting the bed.  I also just received my first onesies that make me feel further safety in wetting.  I am going to look into terry lined vinyl pants for further bedwetting security.  

I have not allowed sexual release during for at least 25 days and that is definitely key.  Diapers + plastic pants are a kind of chastity device for me.    Really enjoying this process. 

Of course, I am sure Ill stop before anything problematic or irreversible happens.  Ill just do a few more days.  Just listen to a bit more hypno. 

[playwithfire]

This idea of "accidental untraining"  is my model.  I guess I am going for intentional accidental untraining

https://kali-is-an-abdl.tumblr.com/post/668556653923287040/hey-kali-based-on-your-three-part-answer-it

[WBxx]

14 hours ago, playwithfire said:

This idea of "accidental untraining"  is my model.  I guess I am going for intentional accidental untraining

https://kali-is-an-abdl.tumblr.com/post/668556653923287040/hey-kali-based-on-your-three-part-answer-it

Not complaining and not by design, but several years of wearing and wetting most nights has made me a helpless bed wetter.  Kali’s “Accidental Untraining” is spot-on.  Thanks for the link.

[playwithfire]

24 minutes ago, WBxx said:

Not complaining and not by design, but several years of wearing and wetting most nights has made me a helpless bed wetter.  Kali’s “Accidental Untraining” is spot-on.  Thanks for the link.

Did you try and retrain to be dry at night? 

[WBxx]

6 hours ago, playwithfire said:

Did you try and retrain to be dry at night? 

Have not.  To my thinking retraining would be a lose / lose proposition.  If unsuccessful it’d be “my god, what have I done to myself!”  And if successful it’d be “darn, all that work for nothing!”  However, I honestly believe I could reestablish nighttime control if motivated to do so.

[oznl]

6 hours ago, WBxx said:

Have not.  To my thinking retraining would be a lose / lose proposition.  If unsuccessful it’d be “my god, what have I done to myself!”  And if successful it’d be “darn, all that work for nothing!”  However, I honestly believe I could reestablish nighttime control if motivated to do so.

The weird alloy of comfort and shock you describe made me laugh.  I experienced the first time I tested myself (no nappy) to discover that I do indeed "wet the bed".  Half of me was strangely comforted, the other half horrified at what I'd done to myself.   I too suspect I could retrain myself with bedwetting alarms and what-have-you but I'm strangely disinclined to do so.  Another parallel with myself is how my antipathy toward bedwetting melted away as I transitioned into it.  Once I was there, it didn't seem so bad at all.

On 5/3/2022 at 1:13 PM, playwithfire said:

This idea of "accidental untraining"  is my model.  I guess I am going for intentional accidental untraining

https://kali-is-an-abdl.tumblr.com/post/668556653923287040/hey-kali-based-on-your-three-part-answer-it

Yes, interesting article.  Certainly the way that I drifted into bedwetting without specifically meaning to was very familiar.  In my case however, bedwetting did NOT as an extension of daytime incontinence.   It happened of its own.

I know from the limited observations I can make (it's kind of hard to measure) that my bedwetting "events" are not entire bladderfuls and are probably not accompanied by pee urges.  It just seems to be a deeply ingrained daytime habit of emptying whatever is in my bladder every time I stop to think about it persisting beyond the veil of sleep.

The idea that my bedwetting has now Frankenstein-like, taken life on its own and will from now on inevitably accelerate irrespective of my wishes is interesting but I'm not sure I see the logic behind that.

It's getting "worse" (if that's the right term) because I'm doing nothing to stop ingraining the behaviour.  Because I just don't want to.  I don't know why.

 

 

[playwithfire]

I am getting better at not leaking while in a better protected bed which should help me sleep better and feel more comfortable wetting in bed.  It has now been about a month that I have consistently worn diapers most of the time ( 14-15 hours per day on work days and 24 hours per day on weekends )

While at work, I do set a timer to go to the bathroom and pee every 30 minutes.  I try to sit in a stall while peeing so I can also continue to relax my bladder area for a few minutes after it has emptied.

I am getting better at allowing myself to pee in multiple positions.  I have also not used a toilet for my morning BMs for this month.  Those are enhanced with generous daily supplementation of psyllium husk ( Metamucil and its like )

I have pretty consistently listened to hypnosis files daily and I also say my mantra regularly in the mornings.

While my related skills are definitely improving, I know I am still 100% continent.   If I chose to stop this right now, I am sure I would be 100% continent with the only retraining to do would be to retrain a bit so that I didn't feel the need to pee every 15-30 minutes, which I don't think would be very difficult.

It is my intention to keep at this day by day, hoping that the cumulative approach will cause some real UI and FI and bedwetting that surprise me.  I am trying to not try so hard and only be consistent and allow things to just happen.

I have yet to wear any protection out of my house, and I am researching that to find a way to do that as discreetly as possible and maybe dip my toe into that water bit by bit as well.

[Kif]

1 hour ago, playwithfire said:

While my related skills are definitely improving, I know I am still 100% continent.   If I chose to stop this right now, I am sure I would be 100% continent with the only retraining to do would be to retrain a bit so that I didn't feel the need to pee every 15-30 minutes, which I don't think would be very difficult.

It is my intention to keep at this day by day, hoping that the cumulative approach will cause some real UI and FI and bedwetting that surprise me.  I am trying to not try so hard and only be consistent and allow things to just happen.

You'll get there

This stuff takes years. I'm not sure if you're actually over-focusing or not when you go (but I'm getting those vibes), so if you are I suggest once you start going immediately refocus your attention on something else. Otherwise, you'll still be giving things conscious attention and automation will become difficult.

I did this without realizing it, due to my own impatience...But, it did eventually resolve on its own once the boredom set in month 3 or so.

1 hour ago, playwithfire said:

I have yet to wear any protection out of my house, and I am researching that to find a way to do that as discreetly as possible and maybe dip my toe into that water bit by bit as well.

Good luck! 

Happy to hear you are trying to keep things discreet. But if I could inject another idea: If you had to choose between higher bulk and increased leaks, which would you think is more discrete?

Lots of folks repeat "nobody notices", and that didn't sink in well for me especially at first. Eventually it did, but that took time and came with both mental and wardrobe changes.

But, what did sink in was realizing I'd rather feel bulkier and more protected than risk leaking in public and becoming a biohazard. Noticed in a diaper? Sucks. Noticed in a leaking diaper? Even worse, and with far more tangible repercussions.

So, I went bulkier. This had several knock-on effects:

• I changed my wardrobe to fit the diapers, rather than changing the diapers to fit the wardrobe. This gave me more confidence in my decision to wear diapers for several reasons: 
  • I was spending money on clothes I wouldn't be able to return (most likely). It's getting the pair of running shoes.
  • For once, I was putting actions to intentions and actually making diapers front-and-center. It's building your routine around exercise rather than slotting it in 'whenever'
• I was free to select diapers based on pragmatic need rather than discretion:
  • this helped me relax more and expend less mental energy on stuff down there
  • this also helped me feel more responsible about my diapering; e.g. if somebody asked then my focus was on need rather than shame ("I need X to stay dry" rather than "Oh you noticed? I really hoped you wouldn't")
• All the above combined normalized it a lot more as "just underwear", which makes it more morally approachable too; as long as you aren't showing your underwear to people then you're probably fine. Diapers aren't a lot different, aside from the extra needs to contain waste and odor.

Hope you find this helpful!

[playwithfire]

1 hour ago, Kif said:

I suggest once you start going immediately refocus your attention on something else. Otherwise, you'll still be giving things conscious attention and automation will become difficult.

That seems like great advice.  I think I am doing this to a certain extent but I think your suggestion seems likely to be effective.

 

1 hour ago, Kif said:

If you had to choose between higher bulk and increased leaks, which would you think is more discrete?

Less ( hoping for none ) leaks is definitely more discreet.  The way I dress now would likely hide pretty thick protection, including a tabbed diaper, plastic pants, and a onsie pretty effectively.  I just am not quite there in terms of actually wearing a diaper when I am not alone.  I am working on it bit by bit. 

Also, my job is pretty intensive and I am a bit afraid that the excitement I would be feeling while wearing protection out in the world would be a major distraction.  I suspect in the not too distant future, I wont be able to resist giving it a try.

1 hour ago, Kif said:

So, I went bulkier. This had several knock-on effects:

• I changed my wardrobe to fit the diapers, rather than changing the diapers to fit the wardrobe. This gave me more confidence in my decision to wear diapers for several reasons: 
  • I was spending money on clothes I wouldn't be able to return (most likely). It's getting the pair of running shoes.
  • For once, I was putting actions to intentions and actually making diapers front-and-center. It's building your routine around exercise rather than slotting it in 'whenever'
• I was free to select diapers based on pragmatic need rather than discretion:
  • this helped me relax more and expend less mental energy on stuff down there
  • this also helped me feel more responsible about my diapering; e.g. if somebody asked then my focus was on need rather than shame ("I need X to stay dry" rather than "Oh you noticed? I really hoped you wouldn't")
• All the above combined normalized it a lot more as "just underwear", which makes it more morally approachable too; as long as you aren't showing your underwear to people then you're probably fine. Diapers aren't a lot different, aside from the extra needs to contain waste and odor.

Hope you find this helpful!

I totally understand ( at least intellectually ) the merits and effectiveness of what you describe here.  I am not there yet.......:) 

I found your reply very helpful.  Thank you very much.

[playwithfire]

Well.......been playing with taking lots of psyllium and end of the day today at work, no protection, thought it was going to be just a fart........it was quite a bit more.  Good thing it was end of day, I could just leave and go home with a bit of a mess in my underwear. 

I'm sure this was a one off from the extra psyllium.  Of course, had a big glass when I got home.  Tomorrow is a day off..........