Could 'Staying Relaxed' Be Misleading?

[Kif]

Often in untraining docs the caveat is to 'stay relaxed' down there. 

For me this feels like the 'drop' in my pelvic floor. I've noticed that while it can often lead to peeing (especially when coughing or laughing), it doesn't always happen (especially in 'kinked' positions). There are also sometimes mental blockers that come up, but not always. I've also never experienced bladder spasms. And my bladder volume has been inconsistent; if I drink often, then the volume may be small, but otherwise it can become very floody.

So, I started to experiment a bit with my sensation down there and I realized that for me this is separate from the sensations I go through when sitting down on a toilet. I'll call this other sensation the 'pee now' pathway.

I've started to shift from engaging the 'stay relaxed' pathway to engaging the 'pee now' pathway instead, and for me it has:

• consistently resulted in peeing
• has more-consistently surfaced mental blockers ("I shouldn't pee right now" kind of thoughts)
• has resulted in more-frequent smaller-volume voiding
• has resulted in some "exhaustion" in my bladder (I suspect I'll experience spasms soon)

One thing that I think that was particularly interesting for me was the difference in mental blockers. With the 'stay relaxed' pathway I have unfamiliar fears; for example, I may fear that my diaper will leak onto whatever I'm wearing or sitting on. With the 'pee now' pathway I more often experience familiar fears; while it struck me as absurd, for me it's specifically that I may pee on what is right in front of me (I have male anatomy), as if I were unclothed and standing to pee into a toilet...but instead realized I were aiming at the couch. 

 

...But I'm curious if anyone else has noticed something similar?

Has anyone else noticed that difference physically and emotionally, and if you did what impact has it had on your untraining?

 

If my suspicions are correct (please tell me if not), I would suspect that for those who have the problem of 'over-focusing' on untraining this could be partly why results don't come so easily? And I would maybe relabel not necessarily as 'overfocusing' so much as 'misdirected focus'.

Ultimately, I suspect both are ultimately necessary for untraining. However, if my goal is to overwrite the old pathway with new habits (as Kali put it, I believe?) then I think the 'pee now' one is the one I should be targeting.

For me, the 'pee now' pathway consistently fully relaxes my pelvic floor and gets my bladder to contract even if it's a very small volume. The latter is useful, but I suspect it leads closer to stress incontinence (laughter etc causes leaking pee) versus consciously overcoming inhibitions and habituating voiding in all circumstances (which I would think more important, as untraining is so much more mental before it becomes physical in any way) and ultimately habituating not going back to tension in the pelvic floor (not holding it/letting pee come out) and habituating deciding to void whatever the circumstances (I'm in a safe place and can pee here, so my bladder contracts).

[Enthusi]

I think it’s safe to say the reason why results don’t come easily is because unpotty training is freaking difficult! ?
 

Though to answer your question, I did a mix of both… I try to keep the muscles down there relaxed as much as possible. When I did become consciously aware I was holding it in, I would make sure my muscles were relaxed. 
 

If I can add one thing… don’t get too accustomed to being able to void “whatever the circumstances.”   That’s okay for at first, but as your control continues to diminish (which it will) you’ll likely find it gets harder and harder to start voiding when you want to. It’s a product of low bladder volume and weak muscles. 

There will likely be times when you’ll have to “sit” with an uncomfortably full bladder for 10-20 min. It’s annoying but you can train yourself to ignore the discomfort. Or at least not feel a need to act on it.  Instead you just keep the muscles relaxed and eventually the pressure will build until the pee trickles out of you. 

[Kif]

8 hours ago, Enthusi said:

… don’t get too accustomed to being able to void “whatever the circumstances.”   That’s okay for at first, but as your control continues to diminish (which it will) you’ll likely find it gets harder and harder to start voiding when you want to. It’s a product of low bladder volume and weak muscles. 

I was literally just thinking of this yesterday, haha! I noticed my flow was gotten surprisingly weaker during a change (like...I expected a 'fountain' but had barely a stream), and it got me wondering if that'd happen. 

Quote

There will likely be times when you’ll have to “sit” with an uncomfortably full bladder for 10-20 min. It’s annoying but you can train yourself to ignore the discomfort. Or at least not feel a need to act on it.  Instead you just keep the muscles relaxed and eventually the pressure will build until the pee trickles out of you. 

Thanks for the wisdom here. I remember now, jonbear commented on this as the reason they'd stopped 4 months in. I otherwise haven't heard of it often enough that it occupied a place in my memory...I read though Kali's blog, and didn't recall a mention of that there either. So, that's interesting...I wonder if it happens more often and folks don't think of it, or if it just isn't that common?

[Hannah YMS]

On 9/13/2021 at 11:40 PM, Kif said:

I was literally just thinking of this yesterday, haha! I noticed my flow was gotten surprisingly weaker during a change (like...I expected a 'fountain' but had barely a stream), and it got me wondering if that'd happen. 

Thanks for the wisdom here. I remember now, jonbear commented on this as the reason they'd stopped 4 months in. I otherwise haven't heard of it often enough that it occupied a place in my memory...I read though Kali's blog, and didn't recall a mention of that there either. So, that's interesting...I wonder if it happens more often and folks don't think of it, or if it just isn't that common?

I'm secretly hoping that this is a common occurrence because I'm struggling with this pretty hard for the last 5 months or so, with seemingly little to no progress.

But if I'm the odd man out then it's better for you all, so... 

It's just so frustrating sitting there with an urgent bladder but not being able to void. And when I do manage to find that relaxed voiding sweet spot, it's always a flood.

On 9/13/2021 at 2:38 PM, Enthusi said:

There will likely be times when you’ll have to “sit” with an uncomfortably full bladder for 10-20 min. It’s annoying but you can train yourself to ignore the discomfort. Or at least not feel a need to act on it.  Instead you just keep the muscles relaxed and eventually the pressure will build until the pee trickles out of you. 

For me it's not just sometimes, it's most of the time, especially at night. And having any sort of bladder pressure at all is down right annoying at best and dysphoric at worst. I need to become incontinent, and for my body to betray itself while training to become incontinent depresses me and makes me wonder if I can ever achieve it.

At times when the bladder pressure becomes too much and I need a few days to relax and release, I sometimes put in a catheter so I can be free of the ever-present reminder that I'm not actually incontinent.

----

Does anyone know that in the history of people doing the 12 month program that anyone developed urinary retention and ended up needing 24/7 catheters or intermittent catheterization as a result? 

[Old_PA]

Hope it is not a prostate problem.

[Hannah YMS]

9 hours ago, Old_PA said:

Hope it is not a prostate problem.

Well, I am nearing 40... Think I should get it checked out? 

[Old_PA]

If it was me I would. I delevoped prostate cancer in my 60s. Prostate removed.