Patreon near deplatformed me/Patreon alternatives

[Alex Bridges]

A few of you may know that I had to pull content off of Patreon.

I'm not sure how I came to the attention of the mods, but the issue was my use of the keywords "mother-daughter" and "mommy-son." For good measure, I pulled down other keywords that used the term "mom" or a variation on it.

To Patreon, these keywords and the content behind them indicate incest, and while they understand the stories do not contain or imply incest, the use of those keywords implies it. I asked for clarity on whether the content, the keywords, or both were a problem, but by that point, the issue had been addressed as far as Patreon was concerned, and I received no reply. I was also told I was toeing a very fine line with the depth of regression in some of my stories.

For these reasons, I had to remove a fair bit of content, including all of my audios. I haven't had an exodus of subscribers yet, but I'm anticipating one.

The entire episode has made me leery, and I'm taking a few steps to protect myself and my income.

• I registered a fictitious name for a publishing business, which henceforth will be the official owner of my channels
• I will be opening a bank account for that business so I don't have to use my personal one
• And I am deciding if I want to start a new platform for my work, either OnlyFans, Just For Fans, SubscribeStars, or my own website.

SubscribeStars is cheapest and allows virtually any content that's not illegal but has almost no frills. Just for Fans is an adult site and has some nice features to help market, whereas OnlyFans is not an adult site. My own website would be the most expensive option, and the more I consider it, the more I don't think it's worth the trouble.

Has anyone tried any of these sites and have an opinion on which is best for ABDL writers?

[kasarberang]

Patreon is a huge mistake, they moderate off-site activities and seem to cause problems for people. F-list had to cut ties with Patreon recently because Patreon wanted them to remove content on their site, content that existed during their approval process, content that Patreon used to be okay with and knew about before they approved them, but is now making a stink about it.

 

For me the only platform of the ones you've listed that I'd open an account with and start supporting people is SubscribeStar, they have a reputation for being the "I was banned from patreon"/"I'm sick of patreon" people so I'd be most likely to open an account there and support creators. Where as I don't think I'd ever open an OnlyFans or Just For Fans account for various reasons.

[Elfy]

SubscribeStar has become known a little bit for being home to the alt-right so I would be wary of going there. OnlyFans I believe is against fetish content.

Personally, I've not had a problem with Patreon but I can see their points about certain things. The tags certainly do imply incest even if there wasn't any. I don't know if they were picked up in a filter or something else but I believe incest is against their rules(?) and if that's the case then it explains the issue.

As for age regression/underage characters... I stopped doing physical regression because it has always felt a little wrong. Even when I wrote them in non-sexual situations I was aware that I was essentially writing fetish content which made the situation somewhat icky. These days I don't write any main characters unless they are 18+.

[Alex Bridges]

10 minutes ago, Elfy said:

SubscribeStar has become known a little bit for being home to the alt-right so I would be wary of going there. OnlyFans I believe is against fetish content.

Personally, I've not had a problem with Patreon but I can see their points about certain things. The tags certainly do imply incest even if there wasn't any. I don't know if they were picked up in a filter or something else but I believe incest is against their rules(?) and if that's the case then it explains the issue.

As for age regression/underage characters... I stopped doing physical regression because it has always felt a little wrong. Even when I wrote them in non-sexual situations I was aware that I was essentially writing fetish content which made the situation somewhat icky. These days I don't write any main characters unless they are 18+.

Regression is the word they used. My Raising Husbands stories takes place in a universe where men are inferior and aren't allowed to grow up. Hence the title - the stories are all about women dealing with their diapered husbands.

JFF seems like the best option, because I'm worried about the SubscribeStar alt-right thing too, but whereas SubscribeStar takes a few percent, JFF takes 30%.

[Elfy]

I'm certainly on Patreon until they tell me not to be!

I've been having a good few months, I wouldn't want to switch unless it was absolutely required.

[kasarberang]

3 hours ago, Elfy said:

SubscribeStar has become known a little bit for being home to the alt-right so I would be wary of going there. OnlyFans I believe is against fetish content.

Personally, I've not had a problem with Patreon but I can see their points about certain things. The tags certainly do imply incest even if there wasn't any. I don't know if they were picked up in a filter or something else but I believe incest is against their rules(?) and if that's the case then it explains the issue.

As for age regression/underage characters... I stopped doing physical regression because it has always felt a little wrong. Even when I wrote them in non-sexual situations I was aware that I was essentially writing fetish content which made the situation somewhat icky. These days I don't write any main characters unless they are 18+.

 

3 hours ago, Alex Bridges said:

Regression is the word they used. My Raising Husbands stories takes place in a universe where men are inferior and aren't allowed to grow up. Hence the title - the stories are all about women dealing with their diapered husbands.

JFF seems like the best option, because I'm worried about the SubscribeStar alt-right thing too, but whereas SubscribeStar takes a few percent, JFF takes 30%.

So without getting to into this I'd like to touch on this "SubscribeStar is known for alt-right" thing real fast. The reason SubscribeStar might be inherently associated with the alt-right isn't because of the platform but because a lot of the people who get banned from platforms such as patreon just so happen to be alt-right. Doesn't make SubscribeStar a bad service though or an alt-right one.

Obviously put your content wherever you feel comfortable, Honestly I don't blame you not wanting to go to SubscribeStar due to it's alt-right reputation.

This is just a chicken and egg problem. People view X alternative as an alt-right site because the majority of people who want to move away from X just so happen to be alt-right, X doesn't have enough content from people who aren't alt-right because people who aren't alt-right see X as an alt-right alternative.

 

I also feel it's important to clarify I am not apart of nor do I condone the alt-right.

2 hours ago, Elfy said:

I'm certainly on Patreon until they tell me not to be!

I've been having a good few months, I wouldn't want to switch unless it was absolutely required.

It'd also be hard to get people to switch from patreon, even if you had to. Once people get adjusted to a platform it's hard to get them to switch, especially if they're supporting multiple creators on said platform.

.

[Alex Bridges]

It’s looking like a dual path for me: JFF for the stuff that’s too explicit for Patreon, Patreon for everything else. I might not make much content for JFF, but I have content with no where else to go right now. If anything, I can see myself gradually shifting all my content to JFF, but they take such a big chunk of earnings.

[PeculiarChangeling]

On 4/25/2021 at 9:26 PM, kasarberang said:

 

So without getting to into this I'd like to touch on this "SubscribeStar is known for alt-right" thing real fast. The reason SubscribeStar might be inherently associated with the alt-right isn't because of the platform but because a lot of the people who get banned from platforms such as patreon just so happen to be alt-right. Doesn't make SubscribeStar a bad service though or an alt-right one.

Obviously put your content wherever you feel comfortable, Honestly I don't blame you not wanting to go to SubscribeStar due to it's alt-right reputation.

This is just a chicken and egg problem. People view X alternative as an alt-right site because the majority of people who want to move away from X just so happen to be alt-right, X doesn't have enough content from people who aren't alt-right because people who aren't alt-right see X as an alt-right alternative.

 

This reminds me of a quote from a Folding Ideas video talking about Youtube and VidMe: (I'm quoting from memory, so don't sue me if I get a few words wrong.) 

"If you compete with a monolith, the first people to climb on board will be the people who were tossed off the other ship, and most of them were tossed off for a reason. Now, this could go both ways... If you're not actively courting the type of content creators you want, you're going to end up with the dregs." 

 

SubscribeStar, and it's alt site, SubscribeStar Dot Adult, feels exactly like that - not a competitor to Patreon that's trying to offer a better service or fix problems that Patreon has, but rather by offering an alternative to Patreon for people who got kicked off the Patreon boat. I recently set up an account for reasons similar to Alex's, (Patreon taking issue with some of my writing,) and from what I've done so far, SubscribeStar is just a flatly inferior version of Patreon made to skim users who got kicked off of Patreon. It's not a good site.

 

That said, I'm still going to use it because... well, I didn't get kicked off of Patreon, but my ability to post there *is* limited. 

[kasarberang]

19 hours ago, PeculiarChangeling said:

"If you compete with a monolith, the first people to climb on board will be the people who were tossed off the other ship, and most of them were tossed off for a reason. Now, this could go both ways... If you're not actively courting the type of content creators you want, you're going to end up with the dregs." 

 

SubscribeStar, and it's alt site, SubscribeStar Dot Adult, feels exactly like that - not a competitor to Patreon that's trying to offer a better service or fix problems that Patreon has, but rather by offering an alternative to Patreon for people who got kicked off the Patreon boat. I recently set up an account for reasons similar to Alex's, (Patreon taking issue with some of my writing,) and from what I've done so far, SubscribeStar is just a flatly inferior version of Patreon made to skim users who got kicked off of Patreon. It's not a good site.

 

That said, I'm still going to use it because... well, I didn't get kicked off of Patreon, but my ability to post there *is* limited. 

At the moment SubscribeStar is absolutely inferior to Patreon, but we also have to take into account the amount of time Patreon has had to grow into the platform it is today. SubscribeStar is newer and still has a decent ways to go, in general though I agree with you. SubscribeStar is an inferior product at the moment made specifically to give people kicked off Patreon (for one reason or another some good and reasonable, others not so good and reasonable.) When I said it was a good site, I was specifically talking about it's purpose, which is allowing people who got kicked off Patreon (some unfairly or for unclear reasons) to still make money off their work and not have it all stripped away from them with no feasible alternative.

 

I think SubscribeStar has a good opportunity to become a Patreon Alternative in the future, even if right now they are, like you said a site for those who got kicked off of Patreon for one reason or another.

[PeculiarChangeling]

6 hours ago, kasarberang said:

At the moment SubscribeStar is absolutely inferior to Patreon, but we also have to take into account the amount of time Patreon has had to grow into the platform it is today. SubscribeStar is newer and still has a decent ways to go, in general though I agree with you. SubscribeStar is an inferior product at the moment made specifically to give people kicked off Patreon (for one reason or another some good and reasonable, others not so good and reasonable.) When I said it was a good site, I was specifically talking about it's purpose, which is allowing people who got kicked off Patreon (some unfairly or for unclear reasons) to still make money off their work and not have it all stripped away from them with no feasible alternative.

 

I think SubscribeStar has a good opportunity to become a Patreon Alternative in the future, even if right now they are, like you said a site for those who got kicked off of Patreon for one reason or another.

I partly agree, but at the same time, SubscribeStar launched at a time when Patreon had already been out for many years and had a really solid core product. There's some programming problems (the notoriously bad messaging system, the disparity between desktop and mobile experiences, etc.,) but the base system shouldn't be hard to replicate for a company that has the kind of money to throw around that they do.

This isn't to say that Patreon is perfect, though. There are lots of things that could be focused on as a selling point to make SubscribeStar an appealing alternative to Patreon - Better collaboration tools so that creators could work together and both get paid, better analytics for creators (possibly with direct ad services?), it could serve as a proper content platform and making pages more discoverable, I'm sure there are a host of other things. 

But SubscribeStar didn't do any of those things. It's been out for years now, and it's still just an inferior Patreon. They *only* selling point is that they don't moderate their content, and at this point, relaunching and rebranding is basically impossible for them. I just don't see them ever growing beyond being 'Patreon, but for NSFW and the alt-right". 

[kasarberang]

14 hours ago, PeculiarChangeling said:

I partly agree, but at the same time, SubscribeStar launched at a time when Patreon had already been out for many years and had a really solid core product. There's some programming problems (the notoriously bad messaging system, the disparity between desktop and mobile experiences, etc.,) but the base system shouldn't be hard to replicate for a company that has the kind of money to throw around that they do.

This isn't to say that Patreon is perfect, though. There are lots of things that could be focused on as a selling point to make SubscribeStar an appealing alternative to Patreon - Better collaboration tools so that creators could work together and both get paid, better analytics for creators (possibly with direct ad services?), it could serve as a proper content platform and making pages more discoverable, I'm sure there are a host of other things. 

But SubscribeStar didn't do any of those things. It's been out for years now, and it's still just an inferior Patreon. They *only* selling point is that they don't moderate their content, and at this point, relaunching and rebranding is basically impossible for them. I just don't see them ever growing beyond being 'Patreon, but for NSFW and the alt-right". 

I'm not a huge fan of this logic. From my understanding you're saying because Patreon exists there is no need for another Patreon like platform. It's like saying "Well Google exists, so why make DuckDuckGo?" or "Gmail exists, so why have these other emailing services? After all they all do the same thing." Competition is good for you and for me. I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say here but that's how I interpreted your post.

While SubscribeStar has been out for years now it's only been public for a very short time. SubscribeStar was for the majority of it's lifespan more closed off where it individually picked out the users who would go on it's platform only recently opening up to the broader public and it's has changed a decent bit since then. I don't think SubscribeStar needs to become a completely different type of content creator support system. I think it's great that SubscribeStar exists competition is wonderful. I'm absolutely opposed to there only being a single option for any sort of platform, such monopolies allow for abuse of power and unfair treatment of users after all where else are you going to go?

[PeculiarChangeling]

4 hours ago, kasarberang said:

I'm not a huge fan of this logic. From my understanding you're saying because Patreon exists there is no need for another Patreon like platform. It's like saying "Well Google exists, so why make DuckDuckGo?" or "Gmail exists, so why have these other emailing services? After all they all do the same thing." Competition is good for you and for me. I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say here but that's how I interpreted your post.

While SubscribeStar has been out for years now it's only been public for a very short time. SubscribeStar was for the majority of it's lifespan more closed off where it individually picked out the users who would go on it's platform only recently opening up to the broader public and it's has changed a decent bit since then. I don't think SubscribeStar needs to become a completely different type of content creator support system. I think it's great that SubscribeStar exists competition is wonderful. I'm absolutely opposed to there only being a single option for any sort of platform, such monopolies allow for abuse of power and unfair treatment of users after all where else are you going to go?

I'm not saying that there only *should* be one type of platform, I'm saying that, practically speaking, Patreon already exists and dominates in its field. If a competitor wants to succeed on the internet, it needs to provide something that can't be found anywhere else. It's not a good thing, but it's the system that we've got. (Also, DuckDuckGo actually does provide an alternative service to Google: They focus on privacy. DuckDuckGo is the best example of a Google competitor I can think of. Compare something like Bing, which basically only survives because it's owned by Microsoft and gets loaded as a default search engine on a lot of browsers and devices - while it doesn't function exactly like Google, it's close enough from a user experience that it's just a 'worse google'.) 

SubscribeStar doesn't need to be a completely different type of content creator support system, but right now, there's just zero reason to go with SubscribeStar over Patreon unless you're not allowed to be on Patreon. As a platform, it's just worse. From the user end to the creator end, it's worse. Compare to something like Ko-Fi which provides real benefits over Patreon (but still doesn't allow NSFW content). 

 

To put it another way: In order to compete on a business level, one business needs to provide a service that their competitor doesn't. Otherwise, it's not a competition. In the physical world, this can be as simple as availability or location, (A movie theater can only hold so many people and screen so many films, and a theater that's five miles away will be a better choice than one that's ten miles away,) but on the internet, that factor doesn't exist. Everyone can go to the better theater. If a competitor wants to succeed, it needs to provide *something* that can't be found elsewhere, and right now, SubscribeStar's only unique feature is a lack of moderation. 

Competition isn't good because it's an abstract ideal, it's good when it compels a business to improve its service because they'll lose revenue or business if they don't. 

SubscribeStar isn't going to compel Patreon to be a better service. It's not going to prevent unfair treatment. Patreon is going to stay an monopoly for as long as SubscribeStar offers nothing useful to most of its userbase. 

If Patreon kicks off a user, Patreon has already decided that it doesn't want the revenue from that user - an inferior service picking up that user isn't hurting Patreon, because Patreon doesn't want them. 

 

SubscribeStar doesn't need to be a completely different service. It just needs to do *something* better than Patreon, to provide a reason for Patreon's users to go to SubscribeStar. 

[kasarberang]

1 hour ago, PeculiarChangeling said:

I'm not saying that there only *should* be one type of platform, I'm saying that, practically speaking, Patreon already exists and dominates in its field. If a competitor wants to succeed on the internet, it needs to provide something that can't be found anywhere else. It's not a good thing, but it's the system that we've got. (Also, DuckDuckGo actually does provide an alternative service to Google: They focus on privacy. DuckDuckGo is the best example of a Google competitor I can think of. Compare something like Bing, which basically only survives because it's owned by Microsoft and gets loaded as a default search engine on a lot of browsers and devices - while it doesn't function exactly like Google, it's close enough from a user experience that it's just a 'worse google'.) 

SubscribeStar doesn't need to be a completely different type of content creator support system, but right now, there's just zero reason to go with SubscribeStar over Patreon unless you're not allowed to be on Patreon. As a platform, it's just worse. From the user end to the creator end, it's worse. Compare to something like Ko-Fi which provides real benefits over Patreon (but still doesn't allow NSFW content). 

 

To put it another way: In order to compete on a business level, one business needs to provide a service that their competitor doesn't. Otherwise, it's not a competition. In the physical world, this can be as simple as availability or location, (A movie theater can only hold so many people and screen so many films, and a theater that's five miles away will be a better choice than one that's ten miles away,) but on the internet, that factor doesn't exist. Everyone can go to the better theater. If a competitor wants to succeed, it needs to provide *something* that can't be found elsewhere, and right now, SubscribeStar's only unique feature is a lack of moderation. 

Competition isn't good because it's an abstract ideal, it's good when it compels a business to improve its service because they'll lose revenue or business if they don't. 

SubscribeStar isn't going to compel Patreon to be a better service. It's not going to prevent unfair treatment. Patreon is going to stay an monopoly for as long as SubscribeStar offers nothing useful to most of its userbase. 

If Patreon kicks off a user, Patreon has already decided that it doesn't want the revenue from that user - an inferior service picking up that user isn't hurting Patreon, because Patreon doesn't want them. 

 

SubscribeStar doesn't need to be a completely different service. It just needs to do *something* better than Patreon, to provide a reason for Patreon's users to go to SubscribeStar. 

I admit DuckDuckGo is the worst search engine I could've chosen for that argument, alongside other privacy search engines like Qwant (which is what I use.) I was going to say Yahoo, but decided against it for one reason or another. Totally forgot about Bing existing, though I've heard it's good for NSFW searches, I've never used it though so I wouldn't know.

I'd say in general I misunderstood your original post and this one clears it up for me, so sorry about that. But personally I'd debate that SubscribeStar having less strict moderation (more specifically the if it's legal it's allowed approach of 8chan) IS a feature that Patreon does not offer, as it's been shown even here on DD those who write stories have gotten scolded by Patreon, also Patreon  does not have very good search especially for NSFW content, something which SubscribeStar does do better. In general I agree with you though I do hope SubscribeStar becomes more widely known as a "Patreon alternative" and not "The Alt-Right Patreon Alternative" and I think there's some movement towards that, I've been seeing SubscribeStar links on videos of YouTubers (who aren't alt-right or political in general) that just don't like Patreon for one reason or another.

I am one of those people who isn't a huge fan of Patreon, specifically I don't like that they claim (or used to possibly don't anymore) that they don't moderate off-site activity, yet ban people with the reason being for something they did off-site. Imagine posting one of your stories Patreon didn't like on DD or some place that allowed it and Patreon decided that they didn't want you as a creator because you posted the stories they didn't allow elsewhere, that's silly. Mind you some of these off-site related bans make sense for one reason or another, but the issue is claiming that they don't moderate off-site activity and than punishing people for off-site activity. That's my main issue, though I don't think any platform should moderate their users offsite.

[PeculiarChangeling]

On 5/13/2021 at 11:10 PM, kasarberang said:

I'd say in general I misunderstood your original post and this one clears it up for me, so sorry about that. But personally I'd debate that SubscribeStar having less strict moderation (more specifically the if it's legal it's allowed approach of 8chan) IS a feature that Patreon does not offer, as it's been shown even here on DD those who write stories have gotten scolded by Patreon, also Patreon  does not have very good search especially for NSFW content, something which SubscribeStar does do better. In general I agree with you though I do hope SubscribeStar becomes more widely known as a "Patreon alternative" and not "The Alt-Right Patreon Alternative" and I think there's some movement towards that, I've been seeing SubscribeStar links on videos of YouTubers (who aren't alt-right or political in general) that just don't like Patreon for one reason or another.

Having less strict moderation IS a feature that Patreon doesn't offer, but it's not a feature that Patreon users are going to factor in to their decision-making process. Only an extremely small number of people are going to choose to use SubscribeStar over Patreon because of it - If they're choosing SubscribeStar over Patreon because of Patreon's moderation rules, then they aren't making a decision to choose the better of two options, they're going with their only option. 

 

If SubscribeStar wants to take users away from Patreon, they'd need to offer something that Patreon doesn't offer to its users, and hardcore NSFW content creators aren't Patreon's users. 

[Elbs]

On 5/13/2021 at 10:10 PM, kasarberang said:

Totally forgot about Bing existing, though I've heard it's good for NSFW searches, I've never used it though so I wouldn't know.

I think the only thing I've searched for on Bing is the Google downloader...

[Ohmo]

Seems to me that, if the owner of the sandbox points out the box rules aren't being followed (in this case the use of tags the owner deems unacceptable for any reason) the contributor must comply or accept the consequences (which will probably include deletion of the content, anyway).

1. When it is not my sandbox I know, going in, I don't make the rules.
2. Know the rules before breaking them.

Disclaimer: I don't use any of those platforms as a creator or as a subscriber. 

[PeculiarChangeling]

16 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Seems to me that, if the owner of the sandbox points out the box rules aren't being followed (in this case the use of tags the owner deems unacceptable for any reason) the contributor must comply or accept the consequences (which will probably include deletion of the content, anyway).

1. When it is not my sandbox I know, going in, I don't make the rules.
2. Know the rules before breaking them.

Disclaimer: I don't use any of those platforms as a creator or as a subscriber. 

The issue is with that second point: You don't know the rules. Patreon is rather opaque with what their rules are, and a lot of it comes down to interpretation that might not make sense, or that might not even comply with their posted rules. 

"Mommy-son" as a tag shouldn't, in theory, break any of their rules. If it's referring to a mommydom relationship, for example, there's absolutely no problem, but Patreon moderators don't read every story before flagging it - Probably because they don't have the time, and because they don't want to read niche fetish porn, but whatever the case they don't read it. Your account can be flagged and put into jeopardy for reasons that were impossible to predict, and which come down to 'The moderator interpreted it unfavorably', and you're largely only able to comply or be pushed off. When this happens after you've built an audience for a certain type of content, and you have to take a ton of your content down and lose subscribers for something that's not your fault, well... it sucks. 

 

To use the sandbox metaphor, it's like being told not to build round sandcastles, so you build a sandcastle in a hexagon, spend hours putting on little details and finishing touches, and then the sandbox owner comes over and tells you that you have to tear it down because they decided that your castle looks too round. And, also, you can't build your own sandbox because you don't have millions of dollars for a startup and even if you did, the product you made would be inferior and harder to get off the ground. 

[Elbs]

4 hours ago, PeculiarChangeling said:

The issue is with that second point: You don't know the rules. Patreon is rather opaque with what their rules are, and a lot of it comes down to interpretation that might not make sense, or that might not even comply with their posted rules. 

"Mommy-son" as a tag shouldn't, in theory, break any of their rules. If it's referring to a mommydom relationship, for example, there's absolutely no problem, but Patreon moderators don't read every story before flagging it - Probably because they don't have the time, and because they don't want to read niche fetish porn, but whatever the case they don't read it. Your account can be flagged and put into jeopardy for reasons that were impossible to predict, and which come down to 'The moderator interpreted it unfavorably', and you're largely only able to comply or be pushed off. When this happens after you've built an audience for a certain type of content, and you have to take a ton of your content down and lose subscribers for something that's not your fault, well... it sucks. 

 

To use the sandbox metaphor, it's like being told not to build round sandcastles, so you build a sandcastle in a hexagon, spend hours putting on little details and finishing touches, and then the sandbox owner comes over and tells you that you have to tear it down because they decided that your castle looks too round. And, also, you can't build your own sandbox because you don't have millions of dollars for a startup and even if you did, the product you made would be inferior and harder to get off the ground. 

Plus, Patreon has also banned people for content that isn't on Patreon. So it's not just playing in their sandbox - they want to dictate how you play in everyone else's sandbox, too.

[Ohmo]

2 minutes ago, Elbs said:

Plus, Patreon has also banned people for content that isn't on Patreon. So it's not just playing in their sandbox - they want to dictate how you play in everyone else's sandbox, too.

I doubt Patreon has ever taken action against members for content not on their platform.  Doesn't mean it hasn't happened; just saying I doubt it without evidence other than someone saying it did.

5 hours ago, PeculiarChangeling said:

The issue is with that second point: You don't know the rules. Patreon is rather opaque with what their rules are, and a lot of it comes down to interpretation that might not make sense, or that might not even comply with their posted rules. 

"Mommy-son" as a tag shouldn't, in theory, break any of their rules. If it's referring to a mommydom relationship, for example, there's absolutely no problem, but Patreon moderators don't read every story before flagging it - Probably because they don't have the time, and because they don't want to read niche fetish porn, but whatever the case they don't read it. Your account can be flagged and put into jeopardy for reasons that were impossible to predict, and which come down to 'The moderator interpreted it unfavorably', and you're largely only able to comply or be pushed off. When this happens after you've built an audience for a certain type of content, and you have to take a ton of your content down and lose subscribers for something that's not your fault, well... it sucks. 

To use the sandbox metaphor, it's like being told not to build round sandcastles, so you build a sandcastle in a hexagon, spend hours putting on little details and finishing touches, and then the sandbox owner comes over and tells you that you have to tear it down because they decided that your castle looks too round. And, also, you can't build your own sandbox because you don't have millions of dollars for a startup and even if you did, the product you made would be inferior and harder to get off the ground. 

One reason moderators don't read everything is that there are not enough of them to do it.  They depend on other members to report things to the moderators who, still with little time, must make a decision.  When moderators have a bias, they will act on the bias rather than what you or I think is logical or even in line with their rules.  It's just the way it is.

Another reason for misunderstandings is that many moderators on many platforms do not speak or read English (or the native language(s) of the platform) beyond a rudimentary level that let them get the job.

Those who don't like the rules, or lack thereof, can leave the platform.  I'm no expert, but I doubt anyone has been forced to use any particular platform. Or file lawsuits.  Personally, I love it when over-reaching morons end up paying out big bucks for playing big brother.  Maybe discuss options with a licensed attorney who specializes in consumer protections.  Seriously, many attorneys offer free first consultations - I've used 'em.

It is doubtful Patreon is not out looking for content to ban - they want every penny they can get their fingers on.

One does not need millions of dollars to build a digital platform. Granted, startups of any kind face an uphill battle, but look at Patreon - it was a startup in 2013 and now is worth about $4 billion.  If I wanted to do it, I'd do it the way Patreon did - using other people's money through loans, investors, etc. and I'd find a way to do it without spending millions of dollars. Sorry, making such a vague and invalid claim does not add to the conversation.  If you don't want to do it, don't tell everyone else they can't. 

Another option would be to stop playing in digital sandboxes.  Even DD has terms and conditions they choose not to disclose.  It's all up to one person whether you stay or get kicked out. 

Conclusion: There is no such thing as a level playing field.  If the boss says your hexagon is too round, make it a pentagon.

[Elbs]

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

I doubt Patreon has ever taken action against members for content not on their platform.  Doesn't mean it hasn't happened; just saying I doubt it without evidence other than someone saying it did.

Well, I don't have personal experience with Patreon (and never intend to, given all the horror stories I've heard) but given that I've heard this clam from multiple, unconnected people whose only commonality is writing taboo fetish fiction, I'm inclined to believe it.

[Ohmo]

19 minutes ago, Elbs said:

Well, I don't have personal experience with Patreon (and never intend to, given all the horror stories I've heard) but given that I've heard this clam from multiple, unconnected people whose only commonality is writing taboo fetish fiction, I'm inclined to believe it.

And that's how false conspiracy theories start - I heard it from someone I don't know, but they have something in common with me, so it just has to be true.

I'll go out on a limb (a very short one, to be sure), here and state, categorically, that it never happened.  If it's on the internet it has to be true - right?

[~Brian~]

15 hours ago, PeculiarChangeling said:

The issue is with that second point: You don't know the rules. Patreon is rather opaque with what their rules are, and a lot of it comes down to interpretation that might not make sense, or that might not even comply with their posted rules. 

@PeculiarChangeling

Another example of a place where you don't know the rules is YOUTUBE - The Rules are NOT the same rules you agreed to, but they are used to the disadvantage of the person who believes youtube is wrong.  Rules are used to cover youtube's butt, and they decide whether what you post is against the rules.  IF what you post does not seem to violate the rules, it seems as if they will FIND a way to MAKE something a violation.  I don't feel as if youtube is very fair, because they can and do hide behind things, and leave you with more questions than answers, and policies and decisions are shrouded in stupidness.  Rules are NOT plain jane, and SIMPLE, and you would need a law degree to understand some of them.  As a User of YOUTUBE, I have to know EVERY RULE, and I'd better not even SNEEZE, or the advertisers and the Conservitives will nail you.

The user must read all of the rules, acknowledge them, and uphold the rules.  The problem is, that there are strikes that can be issued, or copyright takedowns, or community "guidelines" strikes that can be assessed.  In @DailyDi's case of Dailydiapers, You KNOW what the rules are, they are there to read, and if you break them, you get a warning, and you KNOW what you did, and that it was against the rules.  WHY?  that is because Mikey, or his team will warn you, and tell you that you broke them, and ask you not to do it again.  If you do, then they decide how bad the infraction is.

With Youtube (I do realize that it is their site, their rules, and they can decide what they do or do not do) it basically boils down to whether they think you violated the rules.  If they do think that, and you don't they ask you to appeal the decision.  However, 99% of the time they just UPHOLD the suspension or the strike, and they don't really have the time to help you, or care that you broke the rules.  I take issue with this because the rules are so VAGUE, and NO ONE will give you the EXACT reason why they sanction you, Citing that "This allows individuals to gain information on how to get away with something."

My feeling is, that since youtube writes the rules, they should FOLLOW their own rules.  Insisting we all know the rules, youtube BEATS that into our heads, but then, they won't disclose to the VIOLATOR what they did, or how they think you violated the rules.  Youtube makes the rules, and does NOT enforce them uniformly.  It gets so bad that I don't even WANT to post anything anymore, because someone will just STRIKE me out, and my channel get banned, and then you will NEVER be able to fashion a good appeal, because you don't know what you did, because they won't TELL You - I can't take the chance that my channel be ZAPPED by foolishness, and the rules are always changing, and so full of legal jargon that they are difficult to understand, and they are interpreted differently.  I mean that Admin A may think one thing, and enforce Rule A differently then Admin B or C does, and If they can't tell you what the heck you did, how can you make sure it does not happen again.  You CAN'T, because it is based on their OPINION and some bible beltish conservative "watchdog" to set the standards. 

I have been in a position of authority a few times, and I have to make decisions like the admins here do.  When I do that, I have to determine the best way to proceed.  It depends on the situation, the severity, the number of times it happens/happened, and if there is something that we could or could have done to make sure that we don't have the problem happen again.  Maybe I was not clear?  Maybe someone does not understand the rules, or interpreted them differently?  Regardless of that, I have to look at the situation, and make a decision.  I try to be fair:  Sometimes, my hand may be forced, and I have to sanction, or FIRE a volunteer, but that has NOT happened YET, and I hope it does not come down to that.  I have to decide what is best for the Church, the Store, and the Community:  I also have to sometimes put myself in the shoes of the offender, and decide if I may be TOO easy or TOO harsh - Most times, it is not that hard, and it is "common sense."  I also try to use situations as "teaching moments" as well, and in some cases, have banned or sanctioned someone for something like being a jerk, and they stay banned:  Then I get an email message, they apologize, and I MAY and often do lift my ban:  Depends on how bad the infraction is.

I always try to REASON first:  If I have to, I WILL sanction:  but I have learned from experience that sometimes a warning is appropriate, and other times, you have to show the person "the error of their ways."  Other times, people try to "bait you" because they just barely break the rules, then COMPLAIN about bans:  I've had that happen to me, so I have been on the receiving end of the "banhamma", but it was lifted after my explanations to the IRC Administrator:  Youtube just bans for whatever reason, and they won't tell you, which is wrong.

Youtube does NOT understand that if users find out what they do is wrong, they mostlikeley will correct it, if given the chance - They don't CARE who they ban, and sometimes, I wonder why I even TRY to do the right thing, because in most cases there is reason for it, but when YOU think something is OK, they do NOT, and they don't want you anymore.

I would rather KNOW the rules, and if I violate, be TOLD, so it does NOT happen again - It is just common sense   I am glad that here, and most other sites, the RULES make sense, and they are EASY to understand, and if I need to ask a question, I can, and get a ruling

Brian

Edited June 30, 2021 by ~Brian~
Added Additional Information

[PeculiarChangeling]

"If you don't like it, you can leave" doesn't work for me.

If I leave Patreon, my next best alternative is a site like SubscribeStar, which gets a fraction of the subscribers and traffic, or trying to do some sort of manual system through PayPal which will also get a fraction of the subscribers and traffic, and no, I can't just build my own platform from scratch. It's ridiculous and unreasonable to expect someone to build a competitor to the most successful patronage website on the internet just to be able to write stories without getting shafted by inconsistently applied, vague rules that don't get explained. 

And if I wasn't making income from my writing, I would have to be using the time I spend writing pursuing something else to make money, because I have bills to pay and only so much time in the month. Without my Patreon income, I'm not writing 12,000+ words a month of finished content, I'm writing a few thousand words every couple months. It's not "If you don't like it, go somewhere else", it's, "If you don't like it, there's no alternative for revenue that works a fraction as well, so go jump off a cliff."